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How do you handle this…

MikeMicalizzi | Posted in Business on March 1, 2009 01:31am

Blueprints for remodels, additions…

You’re following the blueprints for a job, then the next thing you know, things just don’t add up. You’ve already built something, you’ve lost time, now what? Is it your mistake for not catching it on the blueprints or the customers mistake for giving you the blueprints to follow?

Here’s an example: The addition I was building was to have an open / vaulted ceiling of a certain height, say X amount of feet. But the plans called for the same roof pitch as the rest of the house. The two didn’t match. The added room needed to be higher than the existing house along with a steeper roof pitch and I didn’t figure this out until I had already done a little framing. I probably lost half a day to fix this. Again, was this my fault and I deserved to eat this half a day? Or was it the customers fault? I was just following the blueprints. 

This happens a lot more these days because everybody thinks they are architects. They can draw something up on google sketchup or similar program and they give that to you to follow, but the problem is, is that there are mistakes all over the place. Mistakes that you might not catch until you’ve started said phase as I’ve mentioned above. Is it my responsibility to double check the drawings? Am I being paid what the architect gets paid?

So how would you handle this?

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Replies

  1. ponytl | Mar 01, 2009 02:18pm | #1

    they should pay...and you should not have to double check every detail on the plans..

    the question alwats is...hat did you know and when did you know it

    p

    1. jimAKAblue | Mar 01, 2009 04:17pm | #6

      "they should pay...and you should not have to double check every detail on the plans.."

      I don't agree. In fact, most plans that I see have a disclaimer that states that discrepencies should be brought to the attention of the architect before proceeding. Also, there are often small notations that the inexperienced framers miss. The term "verify in field" means that even though the pitch might be noted as 6/12, the roof still must match and if the field roof is 5/12, its not going to fly if you build it 6/12.

      Mike made a rookie mistake and now he'll be able to reap the rewards of the education he's getting.

      1. ponytl | Mar 01, 2009 11:12pm | #10

        my main issue was that when people draw the plans themself to save $ (which i understand)  and was implied in the OP..  then the guy they hire to build it shouldn't have to use said drawing as just a "general idea of what we want"  I'm sure thats not what he bid... "design build"

        the flip side of that is... you make an onsite design change... and then they won't pay because "it's not what the plans show"

        everything i do is design on site... if it doesn't work the way i designed it... then i fully expect to pay to have it redone... I know my situation is a bit different... but if it's not the guy out there hump"n and sweat'n fault... then he's the last guy i want to be on the lose'n end..

        p

        1. MSA1 | Mar 02, 2009 12:38am | #11

          I dont think it matters if the kids drew the design. You cant get to work if you dont know where you're going, how can you work once you get there if you dont know what you're building?

            

          Family.....They're always there when they need you.

  2. jjwalters | Mar 01, 2009 02:57pm | #2

    fact is you DO need to check out the plans prior to building . . .even if they are singed off by an architect, an engineer and God.

    I can't tell you how many times I have would have run a staircase into a wall . . . got my load bearing walls off verticle and a bunch of other stuff.

    Playing "your fault, not mine" only gets people pissed off.......

    Live and learn .... next time build the thing in your head before you start pounding nails.

    My Blog

    1. User avater
      MikeMicalizzi | Mar 01, 2009 03:35pm | #4

      I can agree with that also. Without a doubt you need to check out the plans. But up to that point in my career I didn't have the forsight or experience to pick out something like that.

      So you're saying, just eat it, and chalk it up as a learning experience?

      That's what I did although it just made me so mad. But now I've definitely learned to think certain things through before I start nailing.

       

      1. jjwalters | Mar 01, 2009 06:01pm | #8

        we've all suffered through the same stuff so don't feel bad....a half days labor is nothing compared to what the HO will do to you in the neighborhood if you piss him off.I always checked the plans myself and then I'd have my carpenter check the plans. Stay three steps ahead in your planning and it all works pretty good.But if something won't work make sure to get arch. or HO to sign the change order.........In this business you have to be constantly covering your ####My Blog

    2. MSA1 | Mar 01, 2009 05:40pm | #7

      Architect's design after they've gone to sleep. You need to check those drawings before you start working.

      I had one almost screw up a staircase for me. I had a picky inspector and I had exactly enough room to change his drawing and out in a winder steps.

      His design included one step witha 14" rise. 

      Family.....They're always there when they need you.

  3. Piffin | Mar 01, 2009 03:31pm | #3

    In a perfect world it's always THEIR FAULT

    But we don't live in a perfect world. I don't think I have ever seen a set of plans that was perfect and completely error free.

    So to protect yourself, it is important to always study plans thoroughly BEFORE bidding or otherwise committing.

    Sometimes you eat something.

    One of the worst errors I ever saw was a ten foot high ceiling in a space that allowed no more than about 8'8" and this was from a full service architectural firm. I caught it on first glance and asked how they thought that ten feet was possible and they actually argued with me! I had to get them to use a tape measure on site to realize the mistake.

    I know that with my CAD program it is almost impossible to make many of the common dimensional errors without noticing it, so I am curious about how some folks do that as you mention. Either cheap programs or no review whatsoever.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

  4. jimAKAblue | Mar 01, 2009 04:12pm | #5

    "Here's an example: The addition I was building was to have an open / vaulted ceiling of a certain height, say X amount of feet. But the plans called for the same roof pitch as the rest of the house. The two didn't match. The added room needed to be higher than the existing house along with a steeper roof pitch and I didn't figure this out until I had already done a little framing. I probably lost half a day to fix this. Again, was this my fault and I deserved to eat this half a day? Or was it the customers fault? I was just following the blueprints"

     

    Mike, be thankful that you are getting this lifetime lesson and it's only going to cost you half a day.

    Without talking too much about who's fault it is, the reality is, is that you are the one framing it and your lack of experience is biting you in the behind. The "problems" you are encountering seem very basic and an experienced framer would have easily noticed the conflicts and avoided the "problem" before anything was framed.

    My own experience in framing was primarily in new work and we often encountered inconsistencies in the plans. I found that the best way to save those "half days" of re-work was to ingest and digest the entire set of plans before I pounded the first nail. I would systematically scrutinize every facet of the plans and look for possible conflicts. When I found an area that contained possible conflicts, I would mathematically verify the data until I was sure that I understood exactly what I needed to know to proceed with confidence.

    Remodeling is a different beast and my experiece taught me to meticulously verify every important detail of the existing structure (ie. height, width, depth, pitch, etc). I would then decide, for my self, the height, width, depth, pitch, etc. of the addition portion. If there was any significant variation from the drawings, I would make a call to the owner (or the GC) and let them know that they were getting something different than what the plans called for.

    There is no shortcut (to my knowledge) to this process. Welcome to the club...you have just started cutting your wisdom teeth LOL!

  5. ANDYSZ2 | Mar 01, 2009 06:21pm | #9

    I have won an argument with a builder over a set of plans that he told me another framing crew had just built(a lie)cost him two full days of work and half a roof worth of lumber.

    Builder didn't believe me so I bet him the cost that the plans wouldn't work.He wanted verification so he asked a framer guru buddy of his to verify who I also knew well .So the my lead carpenter and I and the guru and the builder were on the house with strings and no way was it going to work.

    So he ends up making the architect reimburse me.I did not see it, but my lead kept saying " you know this looks good in 2 dimensions but I don't think it will work."So I  told the builder before we started the roof that I thought there was a problem and he just laughed at me and goes we just built this house and it worked fine.So that is when I made the bet.So glad I did too.

    Even the guru guy couldn't tell if it was going to work until we pulled the strings.I call this guy a guru because he had 10 framing crews and some of the guys framing had doctorates in math and engineering and did the math in their  heads.These crews built stuff so out of my league it was scary. 

    ANDYSZ2

    WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?

    REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST

     

  6. user-144854 | Mar 02, 2009 12:44am | #12

    I've been on both sides of it.  Way back when I was green at being the "guy in charge", I had half the footers excavated in Rocky Mountain "soil" before I turned from the foundation sheet to the floor plan sheet and saw a little note: "Plans to be mirror-image".  It was a stock set of plans, and I had looked over all sheets before starting, but I guess I was unconsiously filtering out things that didn't seem pertinent to the day's task.  No excuses -- I just missed it.  Fortunately, the plan was symmetrical enough that it only cost me time & extra concrete for two footers deeper than necessary.  But that got my attention, and I never again rushed plan review.  Still missed things from time to time though.

    Now I'm too dang old for real work, and so sit here drawing stuff for the kids to build.  Just last week I was re-working a previously built plan.  I had just hit the "send" button when I saw my scribble on the side of the old plans to mirror the thing right-left.  Got a sick feeling in my stomache when I remembered that concrete bill from 30 years ago.  I didn't append a note -- went ahead and flipped the thing over, re-arranged all annotation (which is fiddly, even with CAD), and re-sent it with apologies.

    What gets really tricky is when an error is uncovered a few trades deep into the work and everyone starts pointing fingers in both directions.  If I make a mistake, my profit margin is always too skinny to cover it on that job.  I try to work with the GC and give him something here and there in the future to make amends, but often his cost for my goofs is higher than mine.  That's good incentive for both of us to put in extra effort to carefully scruitinize everything.

    One thing about designing with CAD: Even an old hand with a hammer like me can have trouble visualizing certain things from 2-D plans & elevations.  I charge different rates for those than for 3-D output, but always design in 3-D to make sure I understand how it all fits.  I'm sometimes appalled at what I might otherwise have missed.  An yes, I still goof occasionally anyway.

    }}}}

    1. Piffin | Mar 02, 2009 03:16am | #14

      3D vision is a great thingEven better to have it in CADWhich program do you use? I had thought you were ACAD 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. user-144854 | Mar 02, 2009 05:18pm | #18

        "Which program do you use? I had thought you were ACAD"

        Using Architectural Desktop, which does a pretty fair job at 3D.  But I was 3D-ing plain AutoCAD back before it was supposed to be able to do it.  I have one such drawing that goes back to 1983.  It was neither quick nor easy but, for me, was worth it.

        I was hired once by an Archy firm to do 3D perspective views of a large commercial project.  Those guys had Architectural Desktop, Chief, and some other programs for doing such work, but had never learned to use them for anything but an electric pencil.  I did the views using AutoCAD LT and they were flat amazed.

        A lot of folks would say that you can't build decent cabinets with just a circular saw, chisel and hammer.  Well you certainly can, but you probably ain't gonna get rich doing it that way.  I won't get rich doing 3D work while charging for 2D either, but it's worth it for me to catch potential conflicts that my scattered old brain (Damn Sixties!) wouldn't otherwise recognize.  I wouldn't know what to do with a bunch of stinkin' money anyway.

        }}}}

  7. brownbagg | Mar 02, 2009 01:19am | #13

    change order, ca cing

  8. JeffyT | Mar 02, 2009 07:49am | #15

    Sure doesn't feel like work to sit in a nice coffee shop, sippin' a brew, glancing over the plans.

    Best payin' work you'll do all day though.

    My opinion is that it's on you, especially if it's a HO Sketchup special, but even if it's got a big expensive stamp on it it's bound to say "verify on site" or "detail by others" somewhere. If it's a HO special you can charge them a design consultation fee next time. Doesn't usually work for the other ones unfortunately.

    Half a day is a pretty cheap way to learn that lesson. I envy you there.

    j

  9. User avater
    MikeMicalizzi | Mar 02, 2009 04:13pm | #16

    So I'm taking it a half day is cheap when it comes to fixing mistakes and learing lessons, so I guess I should be happy in that respect.

    When it comes to fixing mistakes on jobs, I've probably donated a lot more time than that, like maybe a full week. But these are life lessons you're only going to learn in the field. And when you make a mistake that you have to fix for free, you learn to never make that mistake again.

    was that my Jerry Springer wrap up?

    "Verify in field", now I'll know to look more closely for this evil, little, clause....

    1. jimAKAblue | Mar 02, 2009 04:39pm | #17

      "

      "Verify in field", now I'll know to look more closely for this evil, little, clause...."

      Naw....you don't have to look for that detail...you just have to assume it.

      In new work, I always insisted on having the trusses, and their spec sheets onsite before I started. This was especially important on cut up customs. I would study every truss and mentally determine where it fit and I also verified that it was built right according to the demands of the exterior detailing. This can be demanding on a house with more than 30 different truss configurations but in the long run, the time spent was money saved.

      I did one house that took me 12 hours to figure out before I was able to start framing the first wall. It was the design from satan and I stopped working for the builder after that because he was going to be selling lots of those models.

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