Just the facts, man. Just the facts. thanx
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Replies
Coal with electric as supplemental.
Why b/c the house came with electric heat and elec. has got to be the worst heat for the money.
We put a self feeding stoker in about 10 years ago and its a little messy and definantely more work but coals cost doesn't have you over a barrel like gas and oil do.
Dan
We put a self feeding stoker in about 10 years ago and its a little messy and definantely more work but coals cost doesn't have you over a barrel like gas and oil do.
I notice that you're in SE PA. My home's in SW NY, Orange County. Do you burn anthracite coal? Where do you buy it? Is it available by the truckload, ton or what? How much?
Yes, anthracite it's the only way to go.We're 1 hr. or so south of the "coal region" in Pa. Most of the hardware stores around here carry it in the different sizes. We get "Reading Anthracite" only it's not really from Reading. It goes back to the 1800 and 1900's when coal was king and Reading (the city) and the Reading Railroad (see Monopoly) were big. They distinguish it by spraying some red paint on it as a trademark thing.It's available by the ton, truck load, or 50 & 40 lb. bags. Up until a few years ago we got it by the ton and had it dumped into a coal bin I made. Lately we've been buying it by the 50lb. bags as needed.
They both have there advantages. We use about 3 - 4 tons a year. The last time I bought it it was around 7-8 $ a bag. A couple of years ago it was about $5 a 50lb. bag.We have a split level house. With the elec. the bottom basement was bitter cold on the coldest days of the year and you could feel the floor sucking the heat right out of your body. Since the coal stove, this same space would now qualify as one of the levels of hell with all the heat the stove kicks out. Using it as a rec room in the winter is definately out. When we have people over in Jan. or Feb. you have to actually open windows b/c it gets to hot. You can lower the thermostat but it will still cycle on and off to keep the fire. burning. The convection heat heats up our entire house. And this was b/f I did any serious insulation.Dan
dan.. when i was a kid... the upper middle class burned anthracite pea coal
and it was fed by an automatic hopper thru a screw into the burner of the boiler,
the coal man wan't much more than about 120 lb... and he humped those 100 lb. canvas sacks from the truck at the curb to the basement window in the coal bin, then down his chute into our bin
then me and my brother would shovel it into the hopper, and carry the ashes outside
there were a lot of ashes
i'd guess we burned about 4 ton every winter... maybe 5 ton
the poor people burned bituminous, cause that's what the ferry boats burned,
there was a coal barge wrecked off Beavertail Light during the depression, everyone in town went otu there and climbed down over the rocks and passed up all they could salvage with a bucket brigade
i've seen pics of that event
another thing about the ferry boats... all the women in town knew which way the wind was blowing.... if it was onshore, they didn't hang out any wash, because the soot would ruin it
i think they retired the last coal burner about '59 when they brought the two boats from the Chesapeke run after they opened the Chesapeke Bay Bridge and Tunnel
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/2/2008 8:00 pm ET by MikeSmith
Thanks Dan,
In the past I've always burned wood, because it's readily available on my property and from other nearby sources but I'd like to have the option of burning anthracite coal in a modern boiler/furnace.
Natural Gas.
Cause the "happy parts" like to be warm.
Jotul woodstove, with electric baseboards as aux. I run 4000 watts of baseboards spread throughout the basement on the lowest setting possible, just to keep pipes etc. from freezing if the fire should go out while I'm not home (takes 12-14 hours for that to happen); the real heat in this place comes from that Jotul #3 and about six cords of wood per winter.
Why? Because up here when the power goes out in winter, you do not want to be dependent on any powered heating system.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
I second dino, Jotul wodstove for primary, backup oil in basement for when the jotul goes out. I'm in the Ottawa Valley, and it seems we lose power a couple times a winter from ice storms, or just nasty windstorms. Very comforting not to rely on any utilities to heat the house.
Simon
Very comforting not to rely on any utilities to heat the house.
From my point of view, it's essential. I carry insurance, but arguing with the broker and then the underwriter and waiting waiting waiting while they niggle away at the real damages isn't worth it...so better not to have damage occur in the first place. And I'm not gonna go through draining every pipe in the friggin' house every time Hydro Québec gets dope-slapped by Mother Nature, just in case it takes too long for them to get it up again.
The problem with most modern 'improvements' on solid-fuel heating units is that they all require some electrical power to make them work: feeder screws, blowers, circulatory pumps, whatever. A well-sited and well-designed wood stove is an almost dummy proof way to heat the house, and requires no power source that isn't available in the shoulders of yer plaid flannel shirt.
And you can cook on it, too. My supper's heating up on the Jotul right now as I type these lines....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Our electric rates vary between 3.5 and 4.4 cents per Kwhr, so we have an all-electric house.
Ours is done via an electric boiler doing in-slab and staple-under-floor hydronic tubing, but many in the community simply use baseboard radiators.
No one air-conditions here.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a goddamn flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
What brand of boiler?
What make electric boiler?
Ours is an EFM (Emmaus, PA), and I have also been successful, building for others, using boilers by Argo Technologies (Utica, NY).
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a goddamn flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Wood furnace and heat pump.
Wood 'cause it gave us exercise and wood was 'free'
heat pump 'cause DW didn't want to cut and split 8 cords a year once she whent past 60.
How Do You Heat your House & Why?
Oil-fired forced hot water. Because otherwise we would be cold...
Bob
Electric heat pump.
Mid Atlantic, both heating and cooling are necessary.
Heat pump does both.
Natural gas not available, propane tanks are ugly.
Wood stove as supplement for below-freezing weather.
I heat the house in winter with oil. I have hydronic radiant floor heat, a closed system.
Electric $$$$$$$$. Natural gas not available. Oil is fairly common in New England.
I cool the house in the winter with wood fires in my fireplaces.
Snap crackle pop!
Mongo
I burn 3 to 4 cords of wood that supplements natural gas.
Why? Because if I don't the pipes will freeze.
Natural gas -- cheapest option in the midwest.
Upstate NY. Oil-fired hot-water baseboard plus 55K BTU woodstove. Burn about 4-5 full cords of wood, 500-600 gals of oil.Gas not available here (propane only), electric very expensive. Wood is very comforting to sit in front of on the sofa on a cold day, plus helps weather the occasional power outage. Forced air heat is nasty, radiant too expensive up-front.Steve
Forced air gas - used to be the best bargain here. When I replace in a year or two, I'll probably go with a heat pump with gas back up.
http://grantlogan.net/
Today we's learnin' about rawks. They's all kinds of rawks. These [picks up rock] is rawks which you throw. These here [throws rock at Rusty] is rawks that you get hit with. E.Cuyler
Passive annual heat storage (PAHS). Why? It works, I don't. Zero maintenance.
This is a heating/cooling climate, PAHS provides both. Stores summer heat for winter use, cooling the house in the process. Without doing anything, we get an annual inside temp swing of 13º, which for PAHS isn't very good (I cheated on the design). 23º tonight.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
solar hot air collectors with radiant electric cove heaters for backup
( zero maintenance ... so far, since 1985 i haven't even oiled the blower motor )
because that's what we did in the early '80's
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/1/2008 7:05 pm ET by MikeSmith
solar hot air collectors with radiant electric cove heaters for backup
( zero maintenance ... so far, since 1985 i haven't even oiled the blower motor )
because that's what we did in the early '80's
Mike, If you were to build a new rural, multi-story ICF home in the North East today, what would be your preferred heat system, primary and other?
well...... first.... my emphasis would be on the insulation
the heat would be RFH
cooling would be either a split system , or some small window units mounted in sleeves
but i wouldn't build ICF's.. just not my thing, i like the mooney wall.....
and large overhangs, lot's of windows, and traditional ( or neo-traditional ) architecture
another theory of mine is... at least here in coastal NE, winter is only 4 months ( Dec, Jan , Feb, & Mar )... or maybe three months
where you live... maybe 5 months .. or 4 months
so , i don't want to really design the house for winter... i want to maximize it for year-round
as to the RFH... if you have a wood source, and you're semi-rural.. i like those external , one load a day , wood boilersMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, Being an older, traditional carpenter I like the Mooney wall too but I'm getting serious about ICFs for several reasons.
The lot for which I'm designing is sloped, down off the road, and has a great view to the east and south. So 'tis better to terrace, leaving the top floor and garage above grade and the two lower floors unseen and semi-protected from winter winds.
I'm building with the plan to sell this house after two-three years so I want it to be easily marketable in that time frame. ICFs are quickly gaining recognition and acceptance across the country and will, no doubt, continue to grow in popularity as their energy efficiency becomes better known.
Of course I like RF above all other types of heat. I have a few questions about it's efficiency and effectiveness for the application I have in mind but I'm glad to hear that it would be your first choice for a multi-story home.
In addition I'll have a woodstove on the main/top floor where it can serve several purposes.
I'm glad to hear that you like the split AC systems. Its what I would choose too, but maybe as a retrofit after seeing how a whole house fan works in a multi story house at about 1200 above sea level, inland.
One long term AC experiment worth mentioning. I've taken some time, over the years, to build shade onto my parents' old stucco home here in Los Angeles. All the windows (double-pane replacements) on the east, south and west sides of the house are in shade all summer, dawn to dark.
The attic insulation has been improved to about R-25 and that space is vented by fan when over 100 degrees.
The 1250sqft house is cooled by a single, modern 10,000btu window unit. It adds hardly anything to the small electric bill each summer. Like $30/mo during July and August, $15/mo, June and September.
The low figure is partly due to on-shore night time air flow off the Pacific Ocean, only about ten miles away, as the seagulls fly. And also to the decent amount of thermal mass provided by the stucco plus the rock lath and plaster interior.
By contrast, the neighbors' homes have no shade, old single pane windows and enormous central air units on the roof, the ducts all running through the attic space. They complain of summer electric bills over $500/mo.
Edited 3/2/2008 1:12 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
i was only thinking of the split systems because i keep trying to balance one ( say $3000 ) plus installation
vs. say 4 window units @ say $100 eac plus installation... we are sleeving them and permanently installing them in the wall with an interior winter cover
they are both ugly.. so we keep trying to make them unobtrusive
the small diameter systems (4" duct ) are also intriguing .... but they are expensive and maybe overkill for our cooling needs
as to your stepped house with multilevels... i'd be on that with regular poured concrete and interior foam/stud walls in the conditioned basements
i've always been intrigued by ICF's and SIP's , but i don't think either is that cost effective
one a dese days i'll have to do a serious side-by-side-by-side comparison of the three Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i've always been intrigued by ICF's and SIP's , but i don't think either is that cost effective
one a dese days i'll have to do a serious side-by-side-by-side comparison of the three
I attended a "Green" show/event in Pasadena a few months ago with the aim of looking at a few ICFs. Turned out there were more than a dozen ICF companies displaying their products there.
One which impressed my was http://www.quadlock.com an older European company. By comparison http://www.arxxwalls.com is a well known Canadian company.
Edited 3/2/2008 3:08 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Can you elaborate on PAHS? I've not heard of it.Steve
You're not exactly new here. <G> Must've missed those several threads...
http://www.earthshelters.com/Ch_1.html is a book excerpt. Click on my name and there's a link to a web page on our place.
BTW, I give away 6-8 cords of hardwood every year from our land. Have no need for it.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 3/2/2008 7:54 am ET by VaTom
Thanks. I'm not new, but I come and go. I've not read a lot of the Green bldg stuff.Steve
I turned my house to face south and put some large windows on that side. During the winter days, the sun heats for free. Deciduous trees and a proper soffit overhang block the sun in summer. At night, I use a wood fired furnace, I have electric baseboard for the times I'm out of town. It's hard to beat the comfort of wood heat in a cold region like Maine. The wood is grown, harvested and processed locally, it's a renewable resource.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Heat pump. east coast VA, new 18 SEER unit I put in last year cut bill by 1/3 at least old unit 9- 10 SEER maybe (mismatched unit) elect bills mid winter $130 - $160 summer $110 hottest months (jul-aug) 1 1/2 story 2,300 sf . New windows this spring should help even more
in floor radiant heat warmed by an electric water heater. and gas forced air as a supliment.. infloor radiant might not be enough in our 40 below weather so to add comfort and minimise risks I supliment it with forced air aimed at the windows.
Wood fired outdoor boiler heats both house and 40 x 60' wood shop, both with radiant floor heat. Got backup propane water heater that will keep house warm and shop from freezing in a pinch. We've got a 40 acre woodlot plus all scrap lumber from job sites goes to boiler not dumpster. Large commercial framing job will heat me for a whole winter.
Sun, wood, electricity.
The sun does most of the job most of the time. We like it because the sun is free and, though it may be causing current climate changes that we can't do anything about, it seems environmentally sound. < G >
We burn about 1/2 to 3/4 cord of wood per winter. I cut it locally.
We have electric back up in the house and I use electricity to keep my 7-800 sqr ft shop around 40-50*. We have a Steffes electric thermal storage heater which we bought to satisfy our lender and to qualify for "off peak" power rates. We have never actually used the ETS unit. Don't need it.
We need to add some heat beyond solar roughly from November through March. We went away for a week this winter, set the thermostats on two baseboard units at 50* before we left. I don't think they ever kicked on while we were gone. It was 58* in the house when we returned. It seems that if we were to do nothing to add heat the house all winter it would stay around 50* or above.
If I was going to start over I'd probably go PAHS. I was limited by site factors where we live now.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
NC Arkansas..... plain ol' wood stove with attatched greenhouse and south facing windows. It works like a charm.
Multi-fuel [oil or wood] hot water boiler with baseboard radiant delivery. I try to burn enough wood to keep the oil from kicking in. 2000 sf takes about 3 1/2 full cords [more this year]. and 200 gallon of oil.
Why? Because this unit was in the basement when I bought the house 12 years ago. I have since built a sealed room around it and allowed it to breathe outside air. The reason I enclosed the furnace room was that the storage of a weeks supply of wood introduced spiders and their webs into the whole basement area. It also keeps the furnace room maintenance manageable.
Boston area... 140 YO colonial.
1) Oil fired steam radiators. They were in the house when i bought it, furnace replaced xmas eve 2005, and i got to like how easy on my sinuses steam is.
2) Electric baseboards/forced air heaters: for remodeled space and as supplement on extremely cold days (nights).
I also have a fireplace, but as Mongo said it cools more than it heats. But if i lose power it beats not having anything else.
Harmon Mark III hand fed coal stove is primary. LP furnace is backup. Use about two ton of coal per year (~$350). I use anthracite nut coal delivered in bulk usually a couple ton at a time. The why....Cheap fuel cost, house is usually at least 70*, when we first moved here we would lose power monthly for at least 8 hours a shot so we needed a non powered method of heating.
Argo electric boiler (not real happy with it) to in-floor radient. Electric is 9cents a kilowatt and the only other energy we have is oil at over 3bucks a gal. South East Alaska
"How Do You Heat your House & Why?"
A gas furnace, because it came with the place and like Bob said it gets cold otherwise.
I'm considering a wood or pellet stove in the next few years.
Mainly a woodburner with a central chimney and a vented thru the wall Rinnai propane backup.
Why, because radiant heat is cool in that you can come in freezing from outside, stand next to the stove and have it enter yer backside, warm to the bones, and exit the other.
And free wood.
always the economist
Peach full,
easy feelin'.
Heat pump above 32 degrees. Oil burner hydronic below 32 and as a second stage if needed above 32. Electric baseboards as emergency backup should anything happen to the air handler (as did two years ago; glad I hadn't rip them out.)
Why? House was built with the electric baseboards, DW and daughter have allergies that require filtered air, so we installed the heat pumpboiler combo.
Emergency generator is wired to handle air handlers and boiler during an emergency.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
I Heat with a H.S.Tarm wood boiler , why?.... it keeps our house warm and I buy wood tree length at 100.00 a cord and cut it at 24 in long and only needed to split about a 12 cord of it as rest fits in door and the larger in diameter the log is the longer it burns. I use oil when we have to leave the house for a few days during the winter . so far we bought about 100 gals of oil , and have at least 30 gals left , plenty for rest of winter. we have a 2 story house at least 17,000 sq feet.
our house has thr original old single pane windows and has 2 in of foam insulation under new clap board. and fiberglass insulation in walls so maybe R23. Not much but it still keeps us warm. couldn't blow in insl. because would have had to remove insulation and re sheetrock. so I cut my own wood. and save money. it cost about $3,700.00 if I heated with oil only. wood is good and theres plenty up here in maine.
Carpentry and remodeling
Vic Vardamis
Bangor Me
is 17 thousand square feet a real number????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Natural gas fired Burnham boiler with an outside air temperature sensor. Fin tube convectors throughout the house.
I plan to add a NG Jotul stove as ambience and supplement this year. Gotta save up a few bucks first.
sorry 17 hundredCarpentry and remodeling
Vic Vardamis
Bangor Me
Natural gas forced air.
I am adding a heat pump to eliminate gas usage on milder days when heat is still needed.
With an 80-year-old gravity air furnace which uses natural gas (originally used coal). If it ain't broke , don't fix it.
Chip
But that 50% efficient (if you're lucky) rig will break you. Plus it occupies about 5X the space of a modern unit.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
DanH
I'm sure he's aware of that!
I'm also sure he doesn't care that he's spending more in a heating season than it would take to replace the unit.
He probably doesn't expect to be in the house next year so any long term savings isn't important to him..
Frenchy,
I wouldn't assume any of that. We've been at our present house for 30 years and. if the creek don't rise, I hope to be here a while longer yet. Yes, we would save some money with a new furnace but not a huge amount if you compare our gas bills with those of our neighbors with much more modern furnaces. Seems like a lot of those neighbors who bought "state-of-art" furnaces 10 years ago are looking for another furnace today because newer furnaces just don't last very long.
Chip
Chip Tam
I went from a slightly less efficent to one of those high efficency furnaces and my heating bills went down by over 30% That was important when heat bills got to $500 a month during the worst two months.. I installed the fiurnace myself and it cost me $1100. Took about 1/2 day to install.
So it took me nearly 3 years to save back the cost of the new furnace, but that's been 6 years in the new house and about 5 years in the old house.
total savings estimate around $2200. (note that doesn't add up because this new house while it's more than 2X as large and has 3X the windows is massively more efficent with peak heating bills at $200.00)
Yes, our octopus is gigantic, I'll grant you that. But, I've compared monthly bills for natural gas with neighbors who have much more modern furnaces and we're not doing all that badly. I laugh when salesmen tell me their new furnace would be guaranteed for 10 years.
Chip
Yikes! So overcome by responses, I am all but speechless. I had originally asked for oil burner/hot water system recommendations and got NOWHERE.This is the thing. I CANNOT get HO insurance w/o "central heating," here in coastal Maine. I have excellent chimney, OK shallow FP and flues for furnace and wood stove in cellar. Oil is costly but propane and electricity are also and problems arise which I don't need to go into.I wondered if you terrific guys who readily discuss the pluses and minuses of toilet brands could do the same for oil fired baseboard heat sources.If I could, I would use wood to heat almost exclusively.Since $$ is an issue, am thinking of hot water baseboard heat for primary living space and auxillary electric for 2nd floor bedroom area. Addition has open plan and heat rises, so with wood stove in basement, baseboard on first, maybe I can get away with electric elsewhere. Anything to meet Codes and State Farm.Thanks for input. Hope some of you are still available on this issue.
Edited 3/2/2008 4:09 pm ET by DawterNature
all you need is a heating contractor or a plumber who does heating
in RI , heating contractors have separate licenses, so there are many more of them than plumbers
your oil company can do it
if you have a plumber you trust, have him come over and talk to you
sounds to me like a small boiler, with or without a zone for DHW, some basebaord on the first floor, and some elec heat on the 2d floor would be fine
i'd also inquire about antifreeze in your baseboard
ask around for a referral ... maybe a plumbing supply house, or your local Building InspectorMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If you're happy with your current situation, just install electric baseboard and then don't use it.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I CANNOT get HO insurance w/o "central heating," here in coastal Maine.
You've contacted every underwriter in Maine? I got turned down by 4 insurance companies, finally learned why.
The fourth explained it was due to frozen pipe concern with no central heat (PAHS doesn't count). I asked if I could get a policy that didn't cover it, but had everything else. Guy was shocked that I'd accept that, even though I'd just told him our place never gets very cold. 65º, in another month, for the yearly low.
Allstate came through, though the underwriter insisted on an ispection. Since then, Erie. State Farm, very big here, you can forget, even the Farm Bureau was clueless. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
OIL, RFH ... efficient & comfortable
al
My folks lived in your neck of the woods (they've passed on), had no central heating as such (two wood stoves and a Toyo K-1 stove for backup), and had HO insurance. I'd think with a few electric baseboards for back up you should be able to get a policy.
50% efficient (if you're lucky) rig
Best recollection of that is grandma's mostly uninsulated house, it heated with the gas conversion coal gravity furnace till about 1974)
Paid grandma's gas bill a couple of times for her, central IL... one month it was $30 around about 1970, gas was all of 4 cents a therm then.. how would a $900 a month gas bill NOT result in putting in insulation and new system? 72 million BTUs a month!
BTW, when I was a kid, there was a coal mine just blocks south of the house. $3 a ton and you load. Think a ton lasted a month in our house, but pop had the house insulated pretty well for early 1950's. Still recall shovelling coal in every morning.
Recall knocking apart the coal blocks to get the pyrite and galena 'nuggets' ... no wonder cent. IL coal is high sulpher.
The old coal furnaces sure did provide a convienient forge to learn blacksmithing in the basement though.
Pop replaced the coal with nat gas circa 1955, think he got a Homart from sears. Still the same furnace.. replace the fan motor for Mom last year and inspected the HE, that puppy was made of (looks like 303) stainless, about 30 mils thick, still in great shape... dont think many are made like that anymore....
Edited 3/3/2008 9:58 am ET by junkhound
We have a 3.5 ton Bard geothermal with 1800 feet of buried ground loop.
A Shenandoa wood stove with jacketed blower in the family room. Maybe 1 cord of wood per winter.
Why, because the plumbing supply house where I do business offers a personal use discount for its customers, so I got the geo package for a little less than $7000.
Side story,
At the time Ohio Edison offered a $400 credit for installing the geo system. In less than 2 years time they called and wanted to know the reason we were not using as much electric as we had in the past. Duh!
Nat Gas. I move into town last June and I had nat gas and wood. I hated the wood furnace. If I would have stayed there I would have replaced the old wood furnace with a new one (outside) and the gas furnace with a new more energy efficient one.
gas forced air.
southern California is temperate, gas is plumbed in just about everywhere, it was easy to retrofit in an older house with a single gas floor heater.jose c.
--
"Though I don't think" added Deep Thought "that you're going to like it."
Edited 3/2/2008 2:04 pm by El kabong
Natural gas (Carrier 96% effcient furnace and Heat n Glow fireplace) 'cause that's what was in it when we bought it. So far, technology is a wonderful thing. Foam on the outside of the foundation, spray foam on the rim, low e glass, HRV ........the utility bills for 1395 finished sf are less than ones for our previous 1951 vintage 854 sf house. Nice to be able to sit in the recliner and not have the curtains move even though the windows are closed. ;)
Gas pack powered by propane. Natural gas not available in outside of city. Forced air heat, gas logs for backup, small wall heater in crawl space.
We live in North Alabama. Suffered through too many cold winters using electric heat. Just doesn't provide the warmth that gas does in our opinion.
South west Michigan. 110 inches snow on average per year(snow belt).
We heat with a pellet stove with natural gas forced are furnace(old converted to gas) as a back up.
Only have 1200sf to heat and only really heat 75% of that.
This year is a long heating season and pellets are getting hard to find.
Russell
"Member of the Jewish Carpenters Union"
Do you like the heat output and convenience of pellets vs. wood?
Thinking about adding a unit in my cellar for next season to help with my oil bills. I have infloor radient now.
Thanks.
my nephew installed a pellet stove about two months ago
turned off his hot water baseboard
is heating the whole house fromt he LR pellet stove
burns one of those 5 lb ( ????? maybe it was $5 ) bags a day
it has an outside air connection , burns VERY clean , no chimney
i was impressedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Thanks -- thats just what I wanted to hear !
I don't really want it on the first fllor but down cellar with a plenum and blower I think I can get a big savings from my oil bill.
Theres a pellet factory about 40 miles from here. I don't want the mess that comes with wood.
Walter
ease of use - yes much easier and cleaner than wood - cleaning stove much easier than wood - hauling pellets over wood much cleaner and easier.
Heat output - no - pellet stove is more like forced air heat. Only heats when burning, no radiant - fan runs when burning - add to noise in living area(stove is in living room).
Price for stove and pellets? - maybe alittle cheaper but easier.(I had to buy my wood when we had wood stove)
Would I do it again. - No - I would go back to wood stove.
Russell
"Member of the Jewish Carpenters Union"
oil, forced water baseboard heaters, not old-style radiators
hmmmm, your post perplexs me
E.P.A. certified fireplace cuz I have 16 acres of oak and its free, plenty of trees fall each year. Have installed tubing for radiant but have yet to hook it up.
Natural gas-fired direct vent Weil McClain Ultra Boiler (93% AFUE) with adjacent passive domestic hot water heater. Two zones of hydronic baseboard plus two zones of radiant slab using Watts Radiant Onix tubing. Twin Trane/American Standard SEER 15.0 A/C units with Trane 'Clean Effects' air cleaners and American Standard 130 CFM ERV (energy recovery ventilator).
Heating around 6000 SF including the garage/workshop (to 50-55 degrees +/-)
Jeff
Natural gas, but it just sank in recently how much hardwood my Dad's company discards. It's not my bag; I'm never there. Anyways, they throw out one shipping container A WEEK of cut-offs.
Ye gods.
Anyways, maybe I should think of wood heat.
If all that hardwood is small stuff you should look into a masonry wood stove. That is the perfect fuel for one. Relatively short, very hot burn and the stove captures the heat .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
they throw out one shipping container A WEEK of cut-offs.
You could even look into a small pellet plant. These folks make some small ones: http://www.pelletpros.com/index.html
Bob
Yeah, Dad was saying something about making a fuel product that greenhouses could burn. Maybe that's what he meant.Hypothetical for the moment; it represents capital.
Forced-air NG
Primary reason: Was existing system. (did go with upgraded high-efficiency furnace unit when a/c replaced five years ago).
Secondary reason: Heating season of 8-12 weeks.
Oil Hot Water - baseboard.
Old 1963 American Standard cast iron with a Beckett burner. It also supplies DHW. Boiler began leaking from a bottom nipple over the summer then stopped when ramped-up for heat. So I am looking to replace soon. Mechanical engineers/contractors say Burnham (USA) boiler with a Riello burner. But a residential builder that I trust loves the Buderus (German) boiler he put in his house.
I'm thinking of going radiant hot water under wood floors; 3/4 subfloor with oak.
We also have a Fireplace for ambiance - it does warm up the living room and is cozy, 'till we go to bed and leave the flue open with just embers. Thinking of rebuilding the manufactured steel fireplace as an alcove for a Woodstock Soapstone woodstove. The fireplace is on an outside wall.
First I am working on sealing the attic and plan to replace fiberglass batts with cellulose.
Thanks for giving some brand names. Actually, that's what I'm looking for - oil fired hot water baseboard heat for first floor only. "Recommendations on brands and why." That's how I should have titled this post.No natural gas avail. Propane mostly unpopular for heating from what I've found out. Was told monitor type units not considered central heat. Will check with other insurers. Believe that most Heat system installers go with what is familiar, so give few options. Guy on my road wants me to put in forced air - that's his business. No thanks - no place to hide the works in my open floor plan.I will do more research but I ask your opinion because I expect those in the building trades would insist on the best method, etc. whenever possible. Am I right. thanks
wood...
free...
so I can be comfy...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Woodstove with thermostatic draft (self-regulating) using kiln-dried cord wood.
Kiln dried cordwood??? (Gas fired kiln?)
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Waste wood chip fired kiln. No fossil fuels used. Low embodied energy.
14% moisture content (drier than KD lumber, which is 19%). More BTU/cord with less creosote.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
I heard you mention Kiln dried before.
Can I suggest a wood shed and stacking in the spring or summer.
Cheaper, no kiln being fired at all.
Also It is nice to know you have your wood taken care of by July. P.S.
I seam to get a better deal in the spring.
Edited 3/4/2008 7:21 am ET by Henley
Henley,
Next time you buy wood go to a sawmill.. You see mother nature makes trees round.. people like wood flat <go figure!> the first cut off a tree is called a round. it's also tapered.. at the top it's a thin wedge and the bottom it's a thick butt.
So in one slab cut you get kindling wood and solid chunks!
Sure they are 8 feet long but even an electric chain saw is big enough to cut into fireplace size and no splitting is required.
Near the metro area they sell slab wood for $35.00 a bundle (about 4'x4'x8') further into rural areas the prices drop. They are happy to sell it other wise they'd have to landfill it or chip it.
Ideal is slab wood made from bark peeled logs, there is a lot less ash! You haven't lived untill you come home with a truck full of cherry slabs!
Oh sure oak and maple last longer and make more heat, but the smell! ah the smell of burning cherry! (not to mention the green glowing embers)
I just moved on to our forty eight acres of forested hillside,
so my wood supplier is kind of already chosen. Mostly just using blow down so it's quite a mix of species.
Actually I'm really enjoying the connection of forest to finished wood.
Sort of feel like I'm seeing wood for the first time.
Can I suggest a wood shed and stacking in the spring or summer.Cheaper, no kiln being fired at all.
You can suggest it, but unless you live in a desert you won't get air-dried cordwood lower than about 20% moisture content, and that can take from 6 to 9 months. I buy my cordwood right out of the oven at 14% MC.
And most of what's sold as "seasoned" is a lot wetter than that. In one test of packaged "seasoned" firewood sold at supermarkets in TN, the average MC was 66%.
The difference between 14% MC and 20% MC is about 2 million BTUs per cord.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Well this is one topic where factoids are going to have
to bow to time tested, fool proven knowledge. It doesn't matter what PHD. You are reading.
Here are the facts.
You need to season your wood no less than six months, one year preferred.
Keep it dry
No pine
By and large hardwood is better than soft wood.
That all you need to know.
Well 4x4x8 is a cord is useful too. If you persist in using kiln dried firewood I will
be forced to revoke ten "Eco" points!
It doesn't matter what PHD. You are reading.Here are the facts.You need to season your wood no less than six months, one year preferred.Keep it dryNo pineBy and large hardwood is better than soft wood.That all you need to know.Well 4x4x8 is a cord is useful too.
And, as in everything, simple "factoids" are insufficient to properly grasp the art of cordwood heating.
"Seasoning" clearly means different things to different people as much of the cordwood that's sold as "seasoned" is quite wet. Effective seasoning requires careful stacking of cut and split wood such that each piece is exposed, as much as possible, to both sun and air movement, and all is protected from rain and ground moisture.
Since all wood has the same BTUs per pound (8660 dry), soft wood as well as hardwood can be burned. Softwood is better for a quick hot burn, while hardwood is better for a long slow burn. Additionally each species of wood has different qualities of ease of splitting, amount of smoke and sparks, coaling, and aroma.
And a 4' x 4' x 8' stack of cordwood can contain vastly different volumes of wood, depending on the size and shape of chunks and the tightness of the stacking. An average cord of wood contains 85 cubic feet of solid wood (as opposed to the 128 cf of the stack).
So, rules of thumb (or factoids, as you're wont to call them) are fine for simpletons, but true artists might want a broader field of knowledge.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
So, rules of thumb (or factoids, as you're wont to call them) are fine for simpletons, but true artists might want a broader field of knowledge.
Unsure just what that means, but y'all's conversation piqued my curiosity.
A moisture meter being cheaper and more convenient than a PhD... <G> All air-dried:
standing dead red oak, split 3 days ago 11%
standing dead black locust, split 3 days ago 9.5%
stacked red oak, split a year or so ago 10%
stacked black locust, split a year or so ago 9.5%
air-dried red oak posts in my occasionally heated shop 8.5-11%
pine framing, indeterminate species, that I'm recycling, likely air-dried ~10%
From experience I know that everything will go up to ~12% this summer when we get into high humidity for a few months.
I like to stock firewood a year in advance, but depending on what you cut, doesn't take anywhere near that long for air-dried to be ready to burn here.
As Hoadley in "Understanding Wood" points out, it's equilibrium moisture content that you're looking for. Over-drying has little point. I've bought FAS oak that was dried to 7% (they said- I believed them), but measured 12% when I bought it. Stored in unconditioned racks here. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You're apparently measuring the surface MC of the cordwood. Try splitting or cutting it and measuring the center of the log. And make sure you're using the appropriate adjustment factors to arrive at REAL MC rather than meter reading.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
You're apparently measuring the surface MC of the cordwood
No. It's split, as I posted. My measurements are correct. I'm reading the species chart correctly, that's why I said my pine is approximate.. More importantly, my meter's been tested.
Get a grip. You're missing it here.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 3/5/2008 9:03 pm ET by VaTom
Get a grip? How 'bout get a chain saw?
Cut those logs open and test the MC in the center. Testing the outside of a log, split or not, doesn't indicate the true MC.
Here in New England, outside wood will reach equilibrium at approximately 12% MC.
A green tree will have a MC in the sapwood between 50% and more than 200%. "Dry" firewood is considered to have 20% MC (much as KD lumber is required to be dried to 19% at milling).
The KD cordwood I'm getting at 14% MC is so dry I can't pick it up without gloves for all the splinters.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
You use a chainsaw to split?
Need a photo?
The logs are split, not with a chain saw. Testing to 3/4" of an 1 1/2" piece of firewood is accurate. My Wagner's been calibrated. What meter are you using?
When I lived in Colorado, we air-dried to 7% mc. Here, it's 12%- summer only.
Perhaps you should visit, learn. This isn't anything new to me. Read Hoadley, he's correct.
KD to 14%? Kind of a hurry to get it out of the kiln? Nobody here would do that. Nor would I. No reason. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
KD to 14%? Kind of a hurry to get it out of the kiln? Nobody here would do that. Nor would I. No reason.
Suit yourself, but Colton Enterprises sells 3,000 cord a year of kiln dried firewood.
Good market here in New England where people understand fire wood.
And I read Hoadley 25 years ago. He's a local boy - UMass Amherst, along with Paul Fissette.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 3/5/2008 10:38 pm ET by Riversong
Colton Enterprises sells 3,000 cord a year of kiln dried firewood
PT Barnum said it first.
PT Barnum said it first.
HA! Yes indeed! And among other memorable remarks was: "This way to the egress"!
Comments like this remind me of how lucky I am to be living in Vermont, where people still make an honest living selling basic products and services.
Colton Enterprises is a family-run business, part of a multi-generational Vermont farm family highly respected in the area.
Those who see in everyone else a carnival huckster, I have to assume must be hucksters themselves. Too bad the rest of the world isn't more like Vermont.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
And I read Hoadley 25 years ago.
It would appear, time for a re-read. But since y'all know so much about firewood, perhaps not.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I hope you realise this was in jest. There is no getting around you are paying more for your wood,
more wood is being burnt to heat your house and it just more complicated.
I thought I suggested how to "Season" your wood so you won't have problems.
Stack it early in the year in a well ventilated wood shed out of the rain. Many people struggle with their supplier, I've found the isn't a problem if you get it early.
One side bonus you may encounter is many times in the spring their is
blow down available. No trees were harmed in the heating of this house. Also blow down often are dry already.
I will just disagree about soft vs hard. Most, no everyone I know who uses wood for heat prefers hard wood. Again, smile
It's what it's all about.
I hope you realise this was in jest.
If I don't see a smiley face, I take people seriously.
There is no getting around you are paying more for your wood,more wood is being burnt to heat your house and it just more complicated.
Yes, I pay more per cord, but less per BTU. And that means I burn LESS wood not more. And nothing could be simpler than picking up a cord of wood when I need it.
I don't have a place to store wood for seasoning. I rent a small hunting camp and have a 1/2 cord woodshed on the deck.
Listen I find that you have much to say
and I'm interested!
We share some common interests, and I'd like to be able to converse in a light hearted manner about some serious topics.
So please know that I will never be malicious toward you. But will probably speak in a joking manner. Charles P.S.
I find firewood is a surprisingly personal matter. P.P.S
I can't find the damn smiley face!
View Image
Edited 3/5/2008 8:57 pm ET by Riversong
The difference between 14% MC and 20% MC is about 2 million BTUs per cord.
That was my initial calculation.
I created a spreadsheet to compare the heat output of cordwood of various moisture content percentages, and revised the inputs somewhat.
It now appears that the difference between a cord of hard maple at 20% MC and at 14% MC is about 340,000 BTUs.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Jotul Oslo Woodstove.
Why?
House has forced air, electric. Our first electric bill when we moved in 3 seasons ago was 375$
I put the wood stove in and now it's 100$
Pat
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing..."
Gas Forced Air for most of the house, electric radiant in the bathrooms, have an unused wood stove. Why unused? We're not allowed by the county on the days when it is needed because of pollution.
How: Radiant with cellulose insulation
Why: I don't like forced hot air (very drying and transient) and baseboard is kinda ugly. The cellulose insulation is amazingly tight.
Johnny
But I wouldn't think that the cellulose insulation burns very well.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Fire retardant has apparently been added ;-)
I know it's slightly off-subject, but I definitely recommend investigating the cellulose insulation. Once everything is in the wall that'll be there, they go around and squirt expanding polyurethane (or whatever that "great stuff" is) around the windows, any penetrations, etc, anywhere you might have a leak. Then they spray in the cellolose, scrape it off the studs, and the sheetrock goes up. The house is extremely tight.
As an aside, we also installed an RSF woodburning stove with a gravity vent (e.g. a duct to the upstairs) and a thermostat-controlled blower to dump the excess heat elsewhere (downstairs in our case) when it gets too hot in the fireplace room. It puts out MAJOR heat. Only complaint I have is that the blower is a bit loud but it dumps the heat. I find that the fireplace room gets uncomfortably hot when using a woodburning stove, so I like the ability to dump it elsewhere.
http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/fireplaces/foyer_opel.asp
Johnny
Geothermal - Cheaper than gas, oil or certainly electricity and no chimney. Cost of installation quite low using onsite well with recirculation. Very HAPPY (site in in central NH)
I'd like to hear more or get a link to a good resource, if you'd be so kind.
Go to http://www.climatemaster.com
That is the location that I used. Got my EPA refrigration certification and was able to buy direct from the distributor and install. I am sure tha there are many other good sites.
Cost of installation quite low using onsite well with recirculation.
It's typically the intallation cost of ground-source geothermal that makes it cost-prohibitive for most.
By "recirculation" do you mean that it's an open system sharing water with your domestic water supply well? I didn't think that was legal.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Depends on the state- it is legal in NH. All you need is to drill your well deep enough to have sufficient reservior. I believe there are houndreds if not thousands of similar installations.
Rinni on demand hot water, fueled by propane and used for domestic and in slab heating, woodstove is the main heat source.
We just built a 3200' scribed log home and so far have spent $700.00 on propane and burnt 3 bush cords. I am going to install hot water rads in the bathroom as it can be chilly when its -30 and a north wind, other then the bathroom the rest of the house is open concept and toasty.
Grader
Edited 3/6/2008 9:14 pm ET by grader
What's a "bush cord"?
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
In my area (3hrs north of Toronto) firewood is sold by the face cord 4' high by 8' long 16" deep or by the bush cord 4'x4'x8'
so it takes 3 face cord to 1 full or bush cord.
Grader