How do you install this window?
I think Traco sent me retrofits for a new construction application. Every vinyl window I’ve ever installed, or have seen installed, has a nailing flange that is used to secure it in the opening. Flashing details on the nailing flange are critical to getting a tight seal on the window… My new Traco windows don’t have one.
They showed up from the supplier, who is three hours away, yesterday. I was not on sight when they were delivered. Four windows short of package ordered, no installation instructions, no mull kits and most glaringly, NO FLANGES! On the casement windows there are 4 screws that get run through pre-drilled holes in the frame. You open the sash and there are two holes per side hiding behind the sash. Shim behind them and screw them in – piece of cake – Seems inadequate but doable, now how do I seal the window to the wall? Oh yea, one other thing, how do I open the sash on all my fixed sash windows to do this?
Call the supplier right? He tells me the flanges are there but they are folded down against the frame. I just have to pop a screw driver under them and fold them up once I secure the frame in the opening with the 4 screws. He, he, he… See attached pics… if he’s right, my nailing flanges are about 1/8″ wide. :-)> He volunteered to drive the three hours up here to show me how to do it, but before I have him do that I thought I would follow up on my hunch with you guys.
I’ve never seen a retrofit window designed to go in an existing frame but I’m thinking that’s what I’ve got here. Before I get into the mess of having them remake all 25 of my custom ordered windows WITH FLANGES I want to be dang sure I’m not just clueless to a better way of doing things.
Am I missing something here?
Kevin Halliburton
“I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity.” – I.M. Pei –
Replies
"I want to be dang sure I'm not just clueless..."
Aw, Kevin - Ya just make it TOO easy.....................(-:
In the corner of the closeup, it kinda looks like there's an extra piece of plastic kinda laying down along the edge of the window. If you cut through the corner with a utility knife, it looks like it might pop up.
Kinda hard to tell without laying hands on them.
Things are more like they are now than they have ever been [President Gerald Ford]
Wonder when they are going to deliver my nail holes for that flange? I've got a feeling this supplier might just try what you described. I've already got a blank tape in the camcorder just in case he does. :-)>
That lip is only about 1/8" to 1/4" deep and I'm pretty sure I'll be folding a big chunck of the actual window frame up if I cut any deeper. Maybe there are supposed to be flanges that snap into that groove or something? On a radiused window like this one I'm thinking a fold up flange would be a little screwy with no slots cut to allow it to lay flat too.
I just don't know, this one is a new one on me. I kind of suspect that me and this supplier need a couple of days at the same school though. I'm pretty convinced he knows less about this window than I do. I get five minutes of hold time every time I ask a question over the phone. That's never a good sign when you are looking for the right answer...Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
See that's the trouble with getting old, the eyes there the first to go. I don't see no flippin flanges. But hey you got a load of discount windows.
I'm usually cuttin the flanges off,mount,foam,trim foam/relieve any tension/trimout with great care and caulk/seal water proof. Lots of extra time to detail.U know that the flange on new work usually is backset for the siding to lay over top of flange.
So unless the price is way attractive, time to reorder. Hope they don't have the money yet.
Clay
There is that groove..that is where the flange goes. Seen it when somtimes they get shipped with the flanges not attached..esp. on radius work. He needs to send the flanges, you need to press em in with a block and hammer and then unfold them. Make sure to get a box of nail holes too..<G>
You're talking about the groove inset about 1 1/4" on the frame right? I think you might just be able to talk me into buying that one. I can see how that would work in conjunction with the screw holes behind the sash. They did send me the screws for those holes and the plastic caps to cover them.
Actually, it kind of seems like the obvious answer now that you mention it but I don't remember seeing that groove on any of the larger casements. I'll check it out this evening. Sure hope you're right...Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I called my supplier - he insists the flanges do not snap into these windows, they are already there and just need to be "popped up."
It would certainly not be the first time I missed the obvious - I e-mailed him the pictures. Maybe he can help me out.
Why am I not hearing anything out of the Piffins, Blodgetts, Smiths, etc. out there? You guys with infinite wisdom and experience aren't just sitting out there laughing at me applying more egg to my face here are you?
I'm gonna have to go away for a while if there is a hidden nailing flange, or a really obvious answer on that window somewhere.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
My guess would be guys with infinite wisdom don't buy windows sight unseen.
And Dunc dunks another one.
2 pts.
My guess would be guys with infinite wisdom don't buy windows sight unseen.
LOL... I did get to put my hands and eyes on a couple of demo models. Demo models don't generally have flanges either. Makes 'em easier to slip in and out of the box.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
it's been a while since I've installed Traco's ... and have only installed them as "replacement" windows ... the kind ya leave the old outside stop on and push tight from the inside ... then screw thru the jambs .....
But .... I do seem to recall noticing in one of their catalogs that nailing fins were available as an option for most of their stuff.
My bet ... someone forgot to order ... or someone forgot to include ... those nailing fins.
U want I should go pick ya up some ... the headquarters is about 15 min away.
I stopped dealing with them when the contractors price seemed way too close to list.
Maybe I got lucky the first coupla times ... I'll keep getting bids from them ... but the last one they weren't discounting list enough to get me interrested in buying from them. Other than that .... they've been a good company with a good product.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
U want I should go pick ya up some ... the headquarters is about 15 min away.
Thanks Jeff - I appreciate the offer but I'll get my supplier to order them - that is, if I can convince him they aren't already installed. :-)>Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
it's been a while since I've installed Traco's ... and have only installed them as "replacement" windows ... the kind ya leave the old outside stop on and push tight from the inside ... then screw thru the jambs .....
When I noticed the missing flanges, packages of screws, pre-drilled holes in the jamb and little plastic caps to cover them that was my first thought... replacement setup. My second thought would probably get sensored.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
So have you heard back from the salesman yet? You said you had emailed him the pics also - Was just wondering what he had to say.My friend has a baby. I'm recording all the noises he makes so later I can ask him what he meant.
The dealer called me (finally) a few minutes ago. He's not sure about that groove but all the windows have them. :-)> He will be happy to drive out here with a contractor from the area to show me how they put their windows in around Midland with no flanges. "It's easy, you screw through the jambs and break out the foam... "
Wait a minute!Ok, that's a whole new story from the one he gave me yesterday but I kind of saw that one coming.
I called Traco directly. The groove is for an optional nailing flange the supplier didn't order (just like a bunch of you told me - thanks). I asked Traco, "my supplier told me to foam the frames in, do you recommend that?"
He told me they don't "specify" installation techniques, they just "recommend" them, but they do not "recommend" that one. I asked if it might have an affect on my warranty if I did it that way anyway and, much as I suspected, "it's entirely possible."
That settles that...
What remains to be seen is whether the supplier recommends that I buy the flanges because I didn't clearly spec something on my drawings that (however obvious) turned out to be an option, or whether my supplier will concede and eat the additional cost.
So... I'm either nailing the supplier or getting screwed but either way I want my dang flanges!Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
kevin, you definitely deserve the flanges, at no cost to you.........it was new construction and the supplier knew that in spite of your drawings. This will certainly help you detail the flashing.
I would be concerned that you have measured the units and the rough's you have in that house will accomodate them. Have you done that yet? They screwed the flanges, hopefully they didn't screw you on the sizing.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
No problem - no fuss. The flanges are on their way at the dealer's cost along with the additional four quarter rounds and mull kits that were missing.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Sometimes all it takes is to find someone who really knows what they are talking about, and then all of a sudden it's obvious. Glad it worked out well and easily.
Sometimes all it takes is to find someone who really knows what they are talking about, and then all of a sudden it's obvious
One of these days I'd really like to be one of those guys - Right now I'm just glad they are in abundance here...
And I'm particularly greatful for the fact that the older and wiser rarely tell us youngsters to go wipe our nose when we ask an inexperienced question. This is an outstanding resource for those of us with a whole lot left to learn.
Ah-Pree-Shate-Cha!Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I just wanted to second what you said about the helpful people around here. As DIY homebuilders, I've asked a lot of questions and people have been so great and free with their help.
The thing about building a house the first time for me is that we and especially I second guess everything because we've never done it before. Your windows are a perfect example of this scenario. You think its wrong, but the guy who SHOULD know tells you it is fine. Finding that person that knows everything isn't easy and sometimes you just have to go with your gut. Windows caused us a significant amount of angst from the beginning. We had extra challenges because of the log installation, and the sheer size and height of some of them. I feel your pain!
Glad you got this one worked out. Onto the next hoop to jump through, eh? We're working on hanging 5/8th drywall this weekend for firecode. Finished up our glorious decks last weekend in a 50 mph wind!
sorry i couldn't help you out.. but i know nothing about Traco..
the groove did look like the same one on SOME of Andersen's for the snap-fit flange..
anyways... all's well that ends..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm late to this thread, I've been away. Not that I'd of been any help. I don't see any flanges in the pics, but then, to quote a famous Rhode Islander, "What do I know?" (I don't do dialect).
Glad to hear it is all working out.
If I'd a been here sooner I would've posted...
"Isn't this the kind of thing that happens when an architect is involved??"
Duck and run....:-)
Honestly, I can't believe no one posted that...
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
LOL! Ya know, I've been waiting for that one every time I opened this thread. I'll rest better now - thanks. :-)>Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
"Isn't this the kind of thing that happens when an architect is involved??"
Dang!!!! Ya beat me to it!!! LOL
Bob
Here's one thing I can tell ya...
have ordered from Traco before....
new new const .... alway replacements....
and each and every time they still asked if I wanted to add the nailing flanges!
one more item to sell.... they run thru the whole list.
I'd bet who ever placed the order with them was asked fins or no.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I don't have infinate wisdom ,but the groove looks like the flange groove on some Anderson and Caradco windows that I have installed. I didn't see no stinking popup flanges in your pictures.
Some windows do have the fold down flanges for transport, Anderson, Caradco being a few. Generally new construction vinyl windows have flanges extruded as part of the frame thus they don't fold down. When I buy a Simonton platinum(top of the line replacement) for new construction, they come with nailing flanges seperate, and screws to attach them.
My supplier quit handling Traco(which I did like) for to many screw ups of this nature.
I'd have the Rep come out and school you, that way he can take the info back to the factory, and let them know how crappy a job someone did, may be the supplier, factory, or a combo.
Send us a piture of some of the other windows. Rounds can sometimes be built very different than the straights.
Hey Wrecked Angle,
Know very little about the specific type of window you got but did take a quick look at Traco Website. Maybe as you know the correct specs for this window you can pick out which one is listed on their Website. The have a bunch of info you can download showing you the exact specifications etc. for all of their windows. The page listed here should get you headed in the right direction.
Oh yeah, by the way, I didn't see no stinking flange on that window. But who knows, I wear bifocals.
Good Luck,
Cork in Chicago
Thanks Cork - Not only have I been all over that web site - I've got a hard copy version of it sitting here on my desk. The in depth specs and drawings for the residential vinyl are conspicuously missing from both. What I really need to see is a dealer catalog listing options.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
If ya have the flange pop up issue..it would HAVE TO BE SEGMENTED>>NO? any CURVED FLANGE is either moulded at the radius or segmented..
But hey you got a load of discount windows.
Not hardly... you did catch the custom built part right? Check out the attached spec. Traco is the only window manufacturer with a rep inside of 300 miles that could build what I ordered - primarily because of the Heat Mirror.
This is my first ride with Traco's but I trust them on the recommendation of a very experienced builder. I also had several in-depth phone calls with Traco's engineering department when I was putting that spec. together and they know what they are doing.
However, I'm seriously questioning my supplier. I'm betting they were built and delivered just like he ordered them. We'll see... he was calling Traco with my list of questions this morning and said he would get back to me.
To his credit he did offer to make the 6 hour round trip to help me sort it out. That is a good sign their customer service is pretty solid even if they don't have all the answers. I can definitely work with someone who is putting their heart into getting it right as long as their head follows shortly thereafter.
I'm just impatient - And I figured you guys would love to know that I'm getting old enough that every once in a while I forget I already know everything. :-)> I'll call Traco tommorow if I don't get the answers I'm looking for this afternoon.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I see grooves about where you'd expect to see flanges. I've installed some Andersen products (Most recently a sliding door) where you have to snap separate flanges into the grooves. Maybe they forgot to ship the flanges. Or..maybe they sent you replacement windows by mistake, but a curved replacement window would be rather unusual, I would think.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
Kevin. Did you email him those pics? If the flanges come loose, you need them. If they are supposed to be integral, you got the wrong windows. Remembering that's just a DCO.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Kevin,
Whats the matter with your eyes? Can't you see the flanges laying on the factory floor? They have a shipping label on them that says "hey don't forget to put these in".
Karl ~~~~ <g>
Restoring the past for the future.
Kevin if the flanges are there why are there no predrilled holes for you to nail with? I think the groove is for the flange although I think that 1/4 round would be a hard flange to put in . i have never seen a flange folded back I have had to put the flange on but they were a different manufacturer.Get the guy to drive out and if he can find the flange take him out to a good place to eat for his effort.
ANDYSZ2
I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
It is a new and improved window the flanges are in the can of Great Stuff foam. It is the new top secret product.
the flanges are in the can of Great Stuff foam
If that is the case I'm definitely going to be paying to have these windows professionally installed by the supplier who is handling my warranty.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
These look like windows designed for stucco exteriors. I've seen a lot of those type of windows down here in Florida, where block and stucco construction predominate. The groove is used to snap in accessories - either jam extenders (if the window is inset) or a border designed to mate with a stucco exterior.
Unforunately, I've never installed one that doesn't have some kind removable sash, so I'm not sure how you'd attach it. In these kinds of windows with removable sashes, you screw through the frame into the framing, but it's obviously not possible with your window.
I would get the guy out there asap - I think the windows will have to be re-ordered.
Andy
ooops love those factory workers
Let me put it this way. Those look almost identical to Hurd remodels and I have put in quite a few of those. If you look close you will probably find a single piece of plastic with a lip and another piece U shaped. The one with the lip goes on the bottom and is cut to fit for the angle in the sill. The U shaped one goes on top and is to fill any gap.
Uh-Oh... wondered what those were for...Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Checked with Traco again this morning. it's the same frame for new and retrofit construction. The snap in fins are the only difference. No worries after all but thanks for that clarification.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Learn something new everyday! I'll remember that if I get to put in any Traco windows. Thanks.
Jim This above all, to thine own self be true, and it must follow as the night the day, Thou cans't not then be false to any man Hamlet
so the snap in fins were't there after all ...
were they?
You getting a bunch of free one's sent next day shipping?
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I cut him a break - they are free to me but he doesn't have to pay to over night them. I'm still fixing my panel manufacturer's screw up on the last few gable roof panels so I won't need them until next week anyway.
So far it's almost a perfect record - With the exception of my equipment rental company, every single supplier and contractor I've used has had a major fumble. I can't wait to see what my electrician, plumber and HVAC guys have in store for me.
I am getting several nice conciliatory Christmas bonus checks from the "team" though. I'm planning to buy a box of dopeslaps with the proceeds. You just never know when You're gonna need one. Especially when you have a part time General Contractor working too many hours on his day job to be worth a flip when he gets there in the evening.
Then again, maybe not - With my luck I'll probably spill the whole box of dopeslaps on my head falling off a ladder.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Hey Kevin,
Glad you got that all figured out.
Now how about a couple of pictures of the house.
I watched you putting the sips together.
So it would be great to see it all put together.
best regards,
brian