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I’ve been thinking a lot about “image” and how I percieve other people. You know, like if a businesperson drives a beat up old truck, am I less impressed with them than I am with a competitor of theirs who drives a new rig with nice lettering? How a person dresses, personal grooming, use of foul language, sexual inuendos, skin color, gender…you know, all those little things that influence my opinion of that person, instead of looking at the work they produce and what they charge for it.
I think there are at least two sides to every coin. That businessperson who drives the nicer rig has to pay for that thing, right? And intellectually I recognize that’s why their price is higher, but for some reason I still find myself giving that person more respect, instead of seperating the work from the person, or more accurately, the image I have of that person. That other businessperson, who drives the old truck, are they really displaying a more practical set of values, that a vehicle is to get from one place to another and they have the skills to keep it running?
Anyway, what do you folks think about this whole “image” thing? Do you think it clouds our view of what we are really looking for in tradespeople, production?
Replies
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"Construction Profiling"?
I don't think that's PC Tex, but it's done all the time.
I had a clients customer request better looking carpenters once.....the customers an ass, by the way. He thought that because they didn't fit his idea of what a carpenter looks like, that they must do sub-standard work.
After the builder (my client) and I had a good laugh and considered for a moment calling the Kim Dawson Modeling Agency here in Dallas to send over some glamour boys, we just decided to educate the customer.
My points to him were that I hire these guys for their skills and not their looks. I told him that Joe Cocker was as butt ugly as they come, but he sure can sing.
Presence is important. None of our carpenters, myself included, are "handsome guys". (I posted my picture here once, if you can find it you'll see what I mean.) However, I expect each man to make a good appearance for work. No shorts, jeans with holes, torn t-shits with holes, no face jewelry, I supply carpenters over-alls to most who like to wear them. Some of us are in the position to have nicer, newer trucks, and some are not. Keep a clean jobsite.
We're not pretty with fancy company trucks all lettered up with our company name, but we have a professional attitude toward the work and I think the clients appreciate that. We are from several nationalities and religious backgrounds with varied taste and attitudes and handicaps........but we all work together for a common cause which is keeping ourselves employeed by keeping the customer satisfied.
One other point.....After we finished the work for the customer I spoke of above, he had nothing but praise for the beautiful work the men did.
It's sad but true, you are judged by the way you look. And it can make the difference as to who gets the job. After all, these people are having us in their homes for sometimes a long peroid of time. They have understandable concerns about who they're letting in the front door. They have to leave us alone with their stuff, and they want to feel comfortable that they haven't opened the door to a bunch of bums. I don't blame them a bit. I don't like having workmen that I don't know in MY house.
Ed.
*I think a guy should be free to look like whatever he wants (unless his boss declares otherwise).....but on the other hand he has to understand that he IS judged by his looks. It's the guys with filth written all over them who get indignant when someone shys away from them that irritate me....cause they don't live in the real world. I personally don't try to make a statement one way or the other....I just want to blend on in and wow them with my craftsmanship. That's also my achille's tendon. My feelings get hurt when someone rags on my work. If they don't like my 89 Ford truck and the fifty empty coffee cups littering the floor who cares?......but it makes a difference to a lot of clients so I drive my wifes car, (she has a nice new one with leather seats and stuff)when visiting a new client.
*Well a lifetime of experience has taught me that you can almost always tell what kind of work a person does by how they look.A person who drives a beat-up rig, has dirty sloppy clothes, and is in general looks closer to a street person than a tradesman will almost always do lousy work. Those few who don't generally have personalities that make dealing with them more of a chore than I'm willing to accept.On the other hand although there are a few snake oil salesmen out there the overwhelming majority of the professional appearing do a professional job.So, professional is as professional does is a good rule of thumb. This applies whether I'm bidding something out or hiring a sub.By the way, Jim since we posted at the same time; I don't care about the your truck's age, I do care about the trash. It is very rare in my experience to get quality work from someone who is willing to live in trash.
*"Don't judge a book by its cover" Isn't that the old saying. I have to say most of the time that all the above is true. On the other hand I like to see how someone dressed so nice etc. can afford to get dirty. They are too busy keeping that "image". This is a good thread. I am interested to see how others feel about this one. Kind of reminds me of the thread on what you wear to work you all had here a few weeks ago.Tamara
*My experience is that the mind and temperment of the person is a much better indicator of the kind of work they produce, and that the state of their appearance is not neccesarily an indicator of that. Trash in the truck just means there is trash in the truck. I'm far more worried about someone who is willing to invest $40,000 in the hottest new look in vehicles and $400 in designer construction togs when $5000 in truck and $100 in togs will accomplish the same thing and leave $35,000 in the kitty for useful purposes.
*Jim,I think I would have to agree pretty closely with Fred on this one.To take it a little further I would say the closer your business is to being a "retail" operation---dealing directly with the homeowner---the more important clean trucks,uniformed work force,tidy job site etc. becomes.After all ,what customer wants filthy rustbuckets,smelly workers,and fast food wrappers left around their home?Look at it another way----a lot of people around here like to imply that they are master craftsmen striving to to the finest work possible.I imagine that the reality is that most of us do pretty nice work----and so do a lot of other people(our competitors)A little effort in presenting a clean cut image might go along way in the customers mind.Don't you prefer to buy groceries where the boxes aren't smashed,the cans un-dented,the bags rip-free, the bottles leak free,--from a clean well lit store?I don't mind at all to see guys operate from older,well maintained,much worked trucks. It does drive me crazy to see filthy rustbuckets,billowing smoke,leaking oil,non existant exhaust system,covered in tar,spattered in paint,with a couple of tools rattling around in a drywall bucket amogst the empty beer cans-----driven by a tatooed freak with a t-shirt that reads"insest is best---the game the whole family can play"---think that "professional tradesman" has liabilty insurance,workers comp, the slightest inclination to honor a warranty or the financial resources to do so?
*sorry i don't agree... it's the same thing as the cluttered desk... trash in the truck is just the same as the cluttered desk... some people thrive in that enviornment and some can't abide it...do i need to add that there is trash in my truck and i haven't seen my desk for months ...however.. our customers like our act.. and we do make the attempt to keep things neat... we have uniform shirts.. and neat appearance.... but trash in the truck is just an individual thing...one of my friends is so neat he astounds me... his truck is always spotless.. but he thinks i'm the most organized contractor he knows....so... to me .. it takes all kinds... maybe i'll clean my desk off tomorrow... or maybe i'll go play golf...
*My take is that one should make every effort to look and be professional.. decent clothes, clean appearance, decent truck that is organized. If we are trying to land a professional job, why make it harder sellling ourselves. I mean the if the best carpenter in the world drove up in a messy truck, messy clothes, unkept appearance....he would have blown his "first impression". You only get one of those. It will be much harder to gain the confidence of the client. The most important thing I have learned in dealing with people over the years is getting their confidence. It is my policy to receive one half payment up front on each of my stairways, and to do that with a total stranger takes a professional attitude, appearance, and an immediate trust. I have no doubt that if I drove up in an old smoking truck, got out in dirty/torn clothes, cussed, no smile. etc.... the only kind of jobs I would ever land would be two-step-stoops.
*Image is everything, like it or not. Keep in mind as remodeling contractors the work we do is in the most personal space the customer has, his/her home. So we must convey a high level of trust to be invited to work within that personal space. The major item a customer uses to judge competency and trust is appearance. When given the choice between a builder that has taken the time to present a neat image and orderly appearance or one that needs some personal grooming, driving a POS with tools tossed in the back left to bang around. Who do you think the customer is going to choose to work within their personal space?Scott R.
*>It is very rare in my experience to get quality work from someone who is willing to live in trash. Hey...I didn't say I lived in trash......and maybe I put an extra 0 on the coffee cup deal, but I worked the rough framing circuit for a really long time in at least four states and the kingdom of Alaska and my truck and dress have always fit right in with the other guys. Actually I usually share my front seat with a big box of tools, (I slip the trash under the seat):-)I mean...you do have a point, but one of the best finish carpenters I've ever known was a real slob in everything but his work....like everything else there's a balance. I have met and worked with a lot of men over the years and one thing I'm certain is you can't judge a guy by his appearance. If a guy pulls up looking for a job, the last thing I'm going to notice is the floor of his truck. I'd look at his hammer...see if the waffles are worn down and it's not one of those K-Mart cheapies. Stuff like that. Then if he knows how to lay out a simple set of steps....he's in..coffee cups, trash, and all.But...I believe (as a past GC who physically built the house) the "meeting with clients phase" was important to look good and remember your manners. On the job I worried about other things. But the jobsite itself was always clean for safety reasons.....I hate seeing boards with nails in them...or mac bags and coffee cups laying around and always had a laborer cleaning when he wasn't hauling. Now if I were to get involved in Sonnys operation....I would realize the necessity of cleaning up.....appearance does matter greatly in those circles.
*I think that a REASONABLY clean appearance and organization is the minimum standard........But above all, the most important to me is how you present yourself verbally. Listening to your client and acting upon your agreements are key- show them that you're truly interested in them. The customer is king and you need to make them feel that way. ALWAYS keep your appointments, and ALWAYS call if you're late or can't make it. Probably the most common complaint I hear about contractors is that they don't show up when they say they will, or that the homeowner hasn't a clue about when they'll be on the job or what's going on with a particular phase of the work. Communicate clearly and often with the client. And don't BS them- it's more often than not a transparent guise, and it's also dishonest. Step up to the plate for your client, be in their fan club- the returns for you will come back in spades. -Ken
*Ken,Don't know you...or your operation.....but I'll lay money that you're successful.
*Jim, I believe in being practical. No sense in buying a 40,000 truck that you know is going to get beat up. All of our vechicles are rust and dent free. Dont leak oil. Have regular, quiet mufflers(not glass packs) and are all one color. Remember trucks serve a purpose. You cant haul lumber in a camero. As for judging a book by its cover... this is a bad practice. Some people dont make good first impressions. Others do and turn out to be worhtless. If you do a good job in a reasonable amount of time and stay within budget you will always have work. One thing that I have noticed is people like it when your guys have uniforms ( ie: shirts and pants). We have had lots of customers remark on how well groomed our people were. I agree with the foul language. It has no place on the job site. Especially in a customers home. Color of skin is irrevelent these days. I know many talanted minorities. Image is important and you are right to think about it. That can be what sets you apart from the rest. Best wishes.
*Here's an image to emulate...
*atta boy, bob !ooops .. better curb yur dog...
*Good topic, Jim. I don't think it's possible for anyone to be perfectly non-judgemental. We all make assumptions based on our experiences. After thinking about it, here are some of mine:I probably won't hire someone who never looks me in the eye when talking to me. This doesn't necessarily make sense - they might just be shy - but there it is. I prefer people who will shake my hand the first time we meet.I won't hire someone who makes sexual innuendos or jokes or cusses a lot the first few times we meet. If nothing else, I would not want my children around them.I won't hire someone who smells like pot or alcohol, or if I suspect they're using drugs while on the clock.I probably won't hire someone who is habitually over an hour late for the first few meetings. In my experience, this never gets any better.Don't much care about their truck as long as it's not leaking too much oil on my driveway and it's full of tools. Irks me when contractors ask to use a lot my my tools because they didn't bring their own.I don't care about uniforms. Would prefer to have workers who have showered in the past day or two, especially if they're working inside my home. But contracting is a dirty business and I wouldn't ding a person for showing up with an honest day's dirt on them, especially near the day's end.I won't hire someone who smokes inside my house because it gives me allergies. If they smoke outside and clean up their butts then we're fine.
*When I was in customer service I was told that when people see me they see the company. Not Ron Teti but the company, the way I handle myself things I say ect is not Ron Teti it is the company. When the folks talk about me after I leave they dont say Ron Teti they say the company rep was here and..Basically when people see you they see the company you work for or your company.
*I used to feel you were very reasonable. Now I think you're far to accommodating and forgiving..
*Nobody's perfect. ;-)
*Lisa,I think that's probably a very normal response from a homeowners perspective and one I've tried very hard to accomodate. I think there are two different areas concerning the "Image" thing that are getting puddled together. New construction VS remodeling.Obviously in new construction you don't have (hopefully) a homeowner on the jobsite problem. They come around in the evening and weekends to see their house going up and are not so concerned on the "look" of the guys building it. (I'm talking middle of the road construction guys here, not headbangers and skinhead types)Remodeling is different....my guys (mostly myself) don't smoke/cuss/play music/make a mess in someone else's house. The word is to respect everything in the house...even if the dog bites you, you don't kick it across the room.....and if the kid slides across your freshly laid tile (had it happen) you smile through your teeth and redo it. The key for me has always been to form a relationship with my homeowners (some guys think I'm nuts for doing it) but as I normaly do one job at a time and spend a lot of time in their house I do try. Most people appreciate the effort and I still get christmas cards from the old days.........today though, it's a bit different as the world becomes decidely more unfriendly people tend to be a bit aloof. I don't know, I always enjoyed sitting around the table BSing with the homeowners after work..........not so professional I suppose, but........
*>maybe i'll clean my desk off tomorrow... Mike you got me looking around in here....this place looks like a sunday morning dorm room ..........jeesh, I gotta get my act together if I'm ever going to make it in this business....but, hey, I'm semi-retired....allready made it.........and all these books make me feel comfortable......love a cluttered office full of half-read books.Next I'm going to check out the truck and see how many books are in there, under the coffee cups and lottery tickets.
*Here's an image to emulate... HA! That's pretty good........especially the dog.
*First impressions on ANYTHING or ANYBODY are the absolute most important. There is a reason.We, as human beings, have a subconscious that comes into play. This subconscious makes decisions that will affect our final decisions. When we first see something (or someone) our subconscious has already started the ball rolling. One of two thought processes have already begun. We either see something we like right off, or we see something we don't like. For the things we see that we like, our subconscious has determined that "I like this, and want to know more" For the things we see that we don't like, our thought is "I already don't like this, and probably won't like it any more later". For those that make a good impression, it is much easier to get a client to listen to you make your proposal, or explain a situation to a client that is truly listening, and hearing what you say. Appearance is not the only factor that they are seeing either. Your mannersisms, language, attitude, professionalism in the way you deal with them, your knowledge, etc... are all being observed. When you make a bad first impression, you have an uphill battle to fight just to get the client to hear you out, pay attention to you and your proposal or explanation, and really get interested in you. It can be done, and is done quite often, but it is much harder. The client has already made a subconscious predetermination about you, your business, and your work. You must now overcome those prejudices and bias in order to get them to see the real you. Of course, either way, the client can still get a top notch person, or a bum. BUT... the first impression has set the stage for everything else. Now when the crew arrives, how they look is not nearly as important (as long as the crew is not way out of bounds in ways of dress, activities, language, etc...). The client has already made up their mind about you and your company, and now you have to prove to them that they made the right choice. Once you have proved them right, they will be a customer for life. Just a thought...James DuHamel
*Strange, I almost never hire the guy in the best equipment, or who is the best looking. Why?1. I don't want to pay for the increased overhead that might best be compared to the McMansions mentioned on this forum.2. The best looking guy/gal knows that he/she can get away with substituting charm for work. I don't want to be the one screwed in this deal. I have watched people for many years and while it is not a 100% occurance, I have noticed that many good looking people (they many times are salesmen) seldom have much in the bank at the end of the day, read retirement, and are always on the come. Now, when you run into someone who is both good looking, and willing to work, step aside. I really pride myself in hiring the guy in the oldest truck on the block - and then getting him/her to play out of their league. That is why I am a good boss. I get people to work harder than they want to for less than they are worth.MDF_User
*Well, most of this talk has been about coustomer-worker, or employer-worker. What about subs? When you get bids from three different subs, how big a role does their appearance, their image, play in which sub you hire? Say they're never gonna interact with the homeowner.
*They may not interact with the customer, but they will be interacting with me. How they look and act toward me is the key.But then again, wouldn't I, as GC, be the customer?James DuHamel
*OK Jim, I'll play the game. What was your impression of me when you first saw me walking up?
*The thing is, I've noticed through the years that I am often surprised at how wrong my initial opinion about people turns out to be. Often times I find myself thinking something like "geez, she did a really nice job. I was surprised". Which of course shows my impression of that person (or company representative) wasn't great. And, of course, I've been disappointed by others who impressed me initially. So I am just kind of thinking about all these misconceptions I carry around about those old trucks, or the guy who doesn't shave every day, or maybe doesn't return my calls the same day, you know, just all those stereotypes I carry that limit me. When I first met you, Cal? I was surprised by your physicallity. I had a mental image of you quite different than what you are, I think your nickname, "Big Cal" had something to do with that. When I first saw Jeff Buck, I was sure he was Rich Beckman. Not that that had any effect on what I thought about you, or anyone else, but that has been the one consistant thing about meeting people face to face that I first met online, I am almost always surprised by their physicallity (if that's even a word).
*"Physicallity" ? I know. You've been hanging around with G. W., right?
*Jim, I think you hit on the real answer to this discussion, or perhaps one more answer. This would be that first impressions are not always something we should base our decisions on. Afterall, love at first site is a rare occurance that even more rarely lasts. A total relationship takes a little time to work itself out. I admit that I do judge oftentimes on that initial contact, but realize that a more informed opinion takes a little more effort.And Jim, don't be confused by the physicality. I am so named more from the personna than the size. Sitting 5 rows up, on deck circle, at the sold out opener.......BC
*HEY! IN THE ON DECK CIRCLE! DOWN IN FRONT!
*I've been on both sides of the image issue. In my earlier, younger, more stubborn years, I felt that image didn't mean that much. I drove a beater and worked hard. I earned every penny, and had to scratch for more, just to stay alive.As I got older, I started to improve. Money seemed to get better and I didn't have to fight so hard to get what I needed to make a modest profit.There is no question that in most cases, you'll get more money if you appear to be successful. There will be the exception that won't hire you because they'll think you are overpaid. I don't want to work for those type builders or people anyway.Anyways, I've escalated the image thing. The last person that commented on my image was a beautiful woman that is committed to my team. She told me that when she first saw me, she thought I was a "rich guy that just got back from Florida!" . I've come a long way from that 69 dodge beater that the junkyard refused....Incidently, I'm not rich yet.To those that think they can keep a below average appearance and still land the jobs: yes you can. Keep in mind however, that if you clean up your act, you'll still land those jobs. I've never heard of anyone refusing someone a job, just because they asked for it with a neat and tidy appearance.Here's pic of me at Oklahoma, hobnobbing with millionaires.blue
*Not to worry, we don't have any big guns anymore, a bunch of shortstop looking guys..........Yo, beer!
*Hey Jim,Did you spend good money on that money suit...:)
*WOW - Exactly what I would expect a Fortune 100 company CEO to look like. Talk about IMAGE!
*"Do you think it clouds our view of what we are really looking for in tradespeople, production?"Jim, it can't help but do so, "initially." But in reality, regardless if it's the business world or just a new neighbor, 1st impressions do play a major role, and here' s how and why. 1st impressions has a real impact by setting the tone in our mind of how we will "perceive" everything else "After" that 1st impression.Ever notice that whenever we get mad at someone, the first thing we do is start rattling off all of his/her lousy character traits, or physical attributes. Examples: - "That fat slob couldn't ............." " That bald headed &%$#@&....................."I once read an article I'll never forget, about wall papering a room. The author stated that it's critical that the wall opposite the door wall must be perfect because it 's the 1st wall we see when entering the room. 1st impression. And because it's the first wall, our logical mind automatically "assumes" that the rest of what we see will be just as perfect.It's like falling in love and not noticing any objectionable attributes of the person we are falling in love with. Or the great friend who will defend you against those who speak about you short comings.Justified or not and right or not, that's just how the average mind works. Unfortunately, some poor souls never can get past their 1st impression, and like blinders, they may never see the beauty that exists under the wrapping or butchering of our language. Look at me for example. Outside I'm a 118 pound average 60 year old (this month) wise guy. But inside I'm a 26 year old, 6'2" handsome, sensitive hunk!I can't don't why people just can't seem to get beyond my "wrapping."
*blueeeee... ya look like a million bucks , laddy !
*how many of you are familiar with the term "hollywood side".. in finish , trim & siding work ?
*Ron, I did spend some good money indeed. In fact, I'm quite sure I spent more money on that one day, than I spent in my entire lifetime combined on dress clothes.Actually, I walked into the Men's Wearhouse in Flint Mi. I told the manager that I was fashion challenged, that I had a business convention in Oklahoma, and that I've never been to one. I let him know that I wanted to look like I knew what I was doing. I also told him that I was leaving early the next morning and that I needed everything done by the end of the business day. In fifteen minutes I was walking out of the store.I went back at 7pm to pick up my altered suit. I asked the manager how his day had been. He replied "Great! We have 52 stores in Michigan and thanks to you we were the top producers for the day!" I chuckled as I walked out and can tell you that I know I should have done that twenty five years ago!At Oklahoma, one of the top producers in the company told me that I "looked like a Platinum". Platinum is the highest on the food chain. I like my new look. I feel like a platinum, and I'm quite sure it is reflective in my personality. Looks an image do matter. Ironically, I was accidently wearing some junk clothes last week when I got the "gold card" signed, allowing me to offer the legal services to the 19 employees of a fellow carpenter contractor. I found out today that he is a board member of our local Home Builders Association. I gave a small presentation to the HBA local secretary about the membership. She is quite interested....I'm throwing out all my junk clothes.blue
*Thanks Sonny. I'll never discount the power of image again. I know it has empowered me in ways that I never dreamed possible.blue
*Mike, does that mean the side that gives the first impression?I actually go to great lengths to make the entry on a rough frame look perfect. I've been known to tear off the entire front wall tyvek if it didn't look presentable. I believe very strongly in first impressions. If someone walks through the entry and foyer and spots an ugly-wuggly, they'll think the entire house is loaded with them....blue
*absoutely... the owners eye is the same as the movie camera... also the owner's bother-in-law's eye.. and all the other nuudniks that would like to find fault with our work.. so we continually plan appearance for the "hollywood side "...sounds like you're off on the great quest for the holy grail , blue ...good hunting
*Blue, just remember, what's said in the manner of words and actions must always reflect your particular "image." In your case, I'm not worried.And oh yea, something else I learned from the greatest salesman in the world at one of his seminars. Always keep $200 to $300 in your pocket. That maintains your self-confidence. Makes you feel like the greatest.Go to it!
*As a matter of fact Mike, I am on a quest. There's no stopping me now.For instance, today, I visited the Lapeer Home Builder's Show- a kinda home and garden thing. I knew the Red Wings were just getting started as I walked out of my house. I never even thought twice about it. I was so excited to go and meet every vendor in that show....I've been here 6 years and never even knew a builders show existed....Anyways, I put thirty tools in the hands of potential customers/business associates. In exchange, I got about 25 names and numbers. They all know that I'm calling them back to get a yes or a no.....Now if I can just get my business jumpstarted in Mike Smith country....blueblue
*Sonny, man, I'm tellin' you. At least online I have a chance to stop and try to think of another word. When I TALK, I invent all kinds of butchered words, stickin' "ize" on the ends on all kind of nouns to convert(orize) them into verbs, it's bad. I sure wouldn't make a very good public speaker.
*Thought you always wore gloves to work, blue.
*Sonny, thanks for that very excellent tip! I'm going to pass it on to my team!I do remember carrying money around and I do remember that it made me feel better. Usually the stuff would get moldy, until my wife would find out about it...blue
*Jim, that was in my other life....I'm not done with that life yet. I'm thinking three more months....blue
*Some guys in another thread were talkin' about True Temper Rockets the other day and I thought of you. A few of my old carpenter buddies were Rocket freaks. Gonna miss all you guys, but there's enough of us to take up the mantle of "old fart carpenters" in the next 20 years, I guess.
*Guy gets off a plane in a sear sucker suit (sp.?). Chauffer is looking to pick up a dude that is prepared to buy Time, cash money. Can't find the fellow. Well, sooner or later they meet, and the guy in the rumpled suit is taken to the meeting. Deal falls thru, Time doesn't like the money, they will sell out to Steve Case. The guy in the rumpled suit is from Omaha, and did rather well in the latest Forbes list. I love junky trucks, I love eccentric carpenters. Indeed, one of my friends does too. Last house he built was held up because some of his carps were in jail for DUI. Last I heard he has 1800 or so pads for mobile homes, 1200 or so storage units, and a large number of apartments. Yeah, he does have a nice shiney pickup, but not the guys who work for him. If you can't recognize talent without a shiney truck, get a different job. Any idiot can and will lease a truck for more than he can afford. This is the same as the client who buys a McMansion and passes up a quality home. MDF_User
*Tex,Man, in 20 years we'll be pushing 70 and no one will care what we look like. We'll just be a couple of old guys.It's nice to think that at 70 we could still work the ladders and saws.Why Not!(I guess I gotta quit smoking)Ed.
*Jim- Used my Rocket today. Hope to still have it in 20 years. -Ken
*> That is why I am a good boss. I get people to work harder than they want to for less than they are worth.Might make you a good businessman, but not a good boss in my book. I sure don't want to work for you.
*Legs, I don't remember talking about True Temper Rockets, but that was the hammer of my choice for about 23 years. I used a 20 oz checkered head. The old ones were far superior to the models sold in the nineties. I liked the claws. I could dig a spike out of any board without a nail puller-usually on my first or second try.I guess I could be called a Rocket freak...Not anymore...I love that titanium....blue
*Boss, I was thinking the same thing about getting people to work for less. Then, I realized that he wasn't meaning that in the negative fashion that it came out. Almost everyone works for less than they are worth. If you aren't managing people, yet you have the capability, then you are making less than you are worth, even if you are at the limit in your trade.blue
*So Boss, I work you 20% harder than the next guy, but you take home 10% more to the misses. Still not interested? Corollary: You work 10% less, I pay you 20% less - one of Blue's win-win scenerios.MDF_USER
*Whoa, hold on there MDF....why you pinning a 10% less for 20% less win-win scenario on me?!! I don't have any understanding at all about whatever you are talking about, but that doesn't sound like a win win situation to any one...blue
*Irony, Blue, ironyMDF_USER
*Today I saw a truck in the parking lot at Home Depot that had the owner's name and phone number painted on it, along with "Remodeling Specialist". I thought of this thread and then had to laugh because I realized my first unconcious thought about this truck was that is sure was big and shiny and new and clean and pretty, and that whoever owned it was probably very expensive and already booked up through the summer. So I guess I'm more biased than I realized!P.S. I took down the phone number and will call. Hopefully I was wrong on both counts.
*Lisa, I know what you mean.If there was two trucks parked there, and I needed their services, one nice and one junky, I'd probably call the nice one, while bemoaning the fact that I would be "overpaying". Old junky trucks remind me of the many lower quality wannabes that I've had to deal with over the several decades that I've been a carpenter.Yes, I've know some quality characters that also drove junk, but the ratio is not in their favor.blue
*Blue- I do agree w/you. But I think that someone like Lisa would fare better (or a better chance) by doing this kind of selection at a local established lumber yard. My observation is that the 'wannabes' and those of more limited experience tend to gravitate to the big boxes because they care more about cheap, and not about establishing business relationships. It's the Mom and Pop/Big Box factor. JMHO. -Ken
*Ken, i don't agree. Around here, were lucky to have anything. These big boxes have the financial resources to fill a need. We go to them out of desperation.blue
*>These big boxes have the financial resources to fill a need. We go to them out of desperation.I can buy 3/4 cabinet grade oak/birch plywood cheaper at HD than from my wholesaler (where you must have a cabinet shop in order to buy).....sad, but true. I guess I've become a wannabee also.For a large order...addition/house the lumber yards are the place to go.......but HD has a place in my heart also...Lowe's too.
*Jim, I like to tell this story about the big boxes.I was remodeling my house. I don't like to make counter tops, so I contacted my "wholesaler", Greenfield Plastics Inc., who gave "builder" discounts and submitted my drawings. I had dealt with this shop for about five years and knew the estimator.Anyways, the quote came in around $1500 (forgive me, the numbers are fuzzy). ON a whim, I dropped the same plans off to a Big Box. When I picked up the quote, I was pleasantly surprised to see a price tag of $1200. Immediately my flags went up because I was worried about inferior quality and knew the quality at Greenfield was top notch. I queried the sales agent about where these tops were being shipped from and he exclaimed "...we have a great local supplier here called Greenfield Plastics Inc."!So boys, complain if you want about the big boxes......Just use them as you do another tool in the box. Sometimes they are just what the doctor ordered...blue
*Hey Guys- Never said that I DON'T go to the big box. But in my location I've got half a dozen lumber yards and as many specialty houses within 30 minutes. I go to just about all of them 'cause each has something that I need and the price is fair. I do my best to keep the money local- just my own personal ethic.......As far as finding a better contractor like Lisa talked about, in MY area you're more likely to find them at the local businesses. Cheers, Ken.
*This whole big box/family yard is a local deal. Here we have Lowes, a small chain and a locally owned yard. Bigger contractors use the local yard and love them. Smaller contractors (me) have a hard time as they want to cater to the larger contractors and treat you as a bother. That includes the owner. The small chain has brainless help and crummy material and rarely has everything you need in stock. Lowes has brainless people for the most part although if you frequent the place enough you learn who knows what. They have a lot of displays and a lot of my customers look there and then ask about the product. I now use it as a showroom, take the customer right there and pick it out. Like to keep my money local? You bet. Still buy american cars and trucks too. But you still have to do business and that is what its all about. DanT
*ALL the posts have been very good. Can't argue, really, with any of you! Danial just made a point that I've been thinking about. Probably the most important thing- and one that affects us all more than anything, regardless of geographics or which businesses we patronize- is that we are building, spending and circulating $$$$$ and that is good for all of us. -Ken
*Dan said" "They have a lot of displays and a lot of my customers look there and then ask about the product. I now use it as a showroom, take the customer right there and pick it out." Did exactly that today. I had to go there for my own stuff and made arrangements with a client to meet her there, pick out 3 Delta faucets (real ones) and left. Will install them next Friday. She frist went to the plumbing showroom I sent her to and they immediately took her to the $500 plus faucets even though I told them the price ranges to show her when I made the original appt. Brainless people work for both types of our suppliers. And you're right about the people also. I know who to see in nearly each dept. when I have a question or looking for an odd ball thing.
*Guys I guess I don't understand the heartburn over HD, Lowes, etc. They have a lot of stuff under one roof. They are customer service oriented. By and large their staff is at least as well qualified than the "small" yards, and so on, their prices are generally good.On the other hand the smaller yards are a bit more social or clubby. There is something to be said about driving right up to the lumber pile, if they will let you throw out the firewood, which some won't. The "local" yard may not be what you think either. I found that one recently was really part of a national corporation that just used different names in different parts of the country.So, why not ignore the name over the door and old habits to shop at the place that gives the best price and service?As for the original post: Image is a lot like a college degree. It won't keep the job for you, but it sure will get you in the door so you have a chance to show what you can do.
Did you know the quality of the Delta faucets at HD is not nearly as good as those that come from a plumbing wholesaler? It's a fact and i can back it up. Thought you would want to know.
I have some issues with the big boxes but not because I feel threatened by them. Because I don't. The truth is... it is in my clients best interest to let me handle the fixture purchases, etc. I price accordingly and just tell the truth.
I mark up my materials a LOT less than most plumbers as I cover my overhead completely in my labor prices.
I had the privelidge of working with a guy I met online once. We had never met or exchanged photographs so neither knew what the other looked like.
I recall stepping off the train and ( trying to appear casual and nonchalant ) scanning the crowd for this guy who was meeting me.
I believe we recognized each other almost at the same time. Don't know what it was. He'd come to pick me up in his work truck. It was discreetly and tastefully signwritten with his Company name. The back was full of tools ( as you would expect ) and the front was dusty but clear of the debris that seems to accumulate in mine.
Having just completed 24 hours of non stop travel, I can't even recall what we spoke about on the way home, but I was immediately at ease with him.
In a few months it will be two years since I first met Jim Blodgett. We had some great times together and Jim, I'm so very pleased to call you my friend.
I just read a heatwarming post from Mark to Jim. I have no idea when it was first posted and have no idea why it is posted directly after a post on a big box discussion.
This site is so disjointed.
I really can't believe that this site has went from so high to so low.
blue 4-7-02
Mark,
It is great to see you posting! I am very pleased to call both Jim and you my friend!
Rich Beckman
heres a picture of the house I renovated/built own and live in....I have long hair...51 years young.....play Howard Stern in the morning as long as no kids are around or woman...lol.....occasionally ripped jeans.....my work is my signiture..not the 7 year old van I drive or the mess in it. I've learned over the years.The biggest shortcoming is to judge a book by its cover rather then its learned contents. I actually think my three earrings and pony tail(and bald) at my age along with rings , bracelets.....says something about me....I better be good....lol
Be well
NAmaste'
Andy
Edited 4/20/2002 9:23:46 PM ET by ANDY CLIFFORD
oh...and Jim....gotta find some time to photo all the inside of this house that I did just about alone...all 4000sq ft of it.marble granite limestome oak cherry cedar tray ceilings 10'ers the list goes on.Seems FHB is looking for folks that did jobs on a shoestring budget...I think I did it all for under 300.....course it took ten years offa my life.....lol....only reason I'm mentioning it to YOU is I saw some articles youuuuudid in FHB
BE well
Namaste
Andy