I hate office work.
I avoid sitting down and figuring a Bid or estimate.
The more complicated, the more I avoid it.
I usually don’t have large blocks of time were I can immerse myself mentally in the job.
I have been developing spreadsheets to help with this.
I thought I would share some. This is scary for me because it is hard to figure formulas for every situation. And I am not real computer savvy.
With the basement speadsheet I just want to get a number out real fast. If they still want to go with the project I can refine it.
The basement worksheet has a seperate bathroom worksheet tacked on the bottom with the totals showing up on the main spreadsheet.
The roofing worksheet works well and because bidding roofs is simple it is easier to figure formulas. The roofing worksheet can also be tacked on to an additions worksheet or a garage worksheet.
This is my second attempt to get a thread going about speadsheets. A couple of you replied the 1st time and I thank you for your responses.
We are a small outfit in NW Iowa. Most jobs are $1,000 to $10,000.
Please feel free to commet on the spreadsheet and tell me how you speed up estimating. Thank you.
Rich
Replies
Cargin, I like your efforts. The good thing about your sheets is that they cover a lot of the details, thus helping you to avoid mistakes. The problem with them is that there is a lot of detail, thus you would tend to make mistakes LOL!
If I could add anything to yours I would...but I cant.
One thing that might speed it up would be using a drawing
program that incorporates an estimating program within. After sketching out the layout, the program would kick out a fairly detailed list of items. I'm a new Chief Architect user so I don't want to promise too much. Maybe some more experienced users can chirp in about that possibility.
jim
fka (formerly known as) blue
I have used Better Homes and garden design software.
It is supposed to be a HO version of Chief Architect.
Some of the print out for materials are pretty impressive for retail software.
But I lose memory between uses and then there is a learning curve all over again.
Sometimes I just want to draw a kitchen Like at the Big box stores, but the software wants a roof ect.
i just want to put out an estimate quickly and keep track of prices to some degree.
Rich
That program should work fine. You probably have to open a settings dialogue box and suppress the roof.fka (formerly known as) blue
I'll have to play with the program some more and get a handle on how to use it.
Even simple drawings look better than what I can draw by hand.
Impresses the HO or the permit officeif your drawing is neat and clean.
Rich
Rich, I still have a copy of Home Architect, the first version of these programs that ran on Windows 95. It is/was a very easy program to use to draw out simple floor plans, such as a basement would be. I know for a fact that I could whip out a 2000 sf basement, add in doors, fixtures and electrical and get it to print out a very detailed materials list. The list would be good enough for an estimate. If you got the job, then it would make sense to use that same program to get deeper into the design details and then the program would be good for a detailed ordering cheat sheet. I almost opted to redraw a rough frame house that I had to supply a lumber list for. Before I started my lumber estimate, I too was dreading the time spent doing the takeoff and I debated which was harder....scaling everything and adding or drawing the house in rough form and letting the program give me the list. I opted to do it without the program because I was a new user, but I think I would do it differently the next time. I agree...open up that program and take a few moments to refamiliarize yourself. I think it will pay dividends.fka (formerly known as) blue
Under the "Build" menu, choose "Roof" then "Delete Roof." (I've been playing around with layout ideas for a new master bath)
In MS Excel - if you grab the worksheet at the bottom while holding the control key you can drag a copy. I do this frequently when scenarios change so I don't lose my original notes & ideas. Double-click on the tab and you can rename it - I usually use the date in 102207 format so I know which was the latest revision when we get the job later.
My estimating is in a different field (environmental assessment/remediation), so I don't know that I can help on your original question. I do things similar to your spreadsheet, but seldom have more than 20 items (less pieces to put together).
I saw someone putting a quote together the other day call a supplier to ask the cost of a small roll of rebar wire to tie a ladder off, and wait on hold while they checked. Sometimes the key to efficiency is just taking a guess slightly on the high side. You may be a couple dollars too high, but it won't change much in the grand scheme of things and at the rate you have listed a five minute call is six and a half bucks lost versus two dollars gained.
I need to add your estimating line to my spreadsheets. I tend to figure jobs by what they will take to complete and don't have a good way of accounting for different amounts of time to find and estimate different jobs.
Thanks. I will try usually cut and paste spreadsheets, but I am open to doing it differently.
I hope to get to playing with the drawing software. the H&G program is patterned after 3d Home architect. If I understand the cover right.
You are right about estimating efficientcy. A guess is better than an hour of waiting for an answer from the supplier.
Rich
It took me a couple of tries but I got it to drag.
That's neat.
I was just working on a deck estimate that they wanted figured 3 different ways.
I made and saved three differnt spreadsheets.
You gave me an idea, that now I can just made 2 copies off to the left or underneath.
Then they are all saved under the same name.
Thanks
Rich
For as organized as I am, I dont come near you for estimates.
I basically rely of the experience i've gained for previous jobs. I usually will do an outline in "word" too. Between those two things it doesnt take me too long to do an estimate and I always come out well at the end.
Thanks for the compliment. You ought to see my shop. What a mess.
I find these spreadsheets handy when the HO comes back and "says what would it cost if we do this or that differently".
I can just go back in delete or add items.
Recently a guy called for an egress window. I didn't have time to look at it. But I have worked for him before.
I had done one about a year ago. I looked up the old estimate and gave him a ballpark # without ever going to the home. He called back a couple months later and they are ready to do it.
On paper I would never be able to keep files organized enough to find old estimates easily. I keep all my old work tablets ( the ones that you take into the field with you), and I have gone back into them to get info, but they full of things written on the fly with a good bit of short term memory needed to decipfer.
Glad you estimates turn out good. you must be doing something right.
Rich
My only comment, and this is based on not looking at all, after the estimate, and you end up doing the work, do you go back and put in what it actually takes to do the job?
If not, then I would say you are losing valuable information.
When you lose money you always go back and figure out where you went wrong.
On materials, I am usually error on the long side. Anybody can figure mat. if they have enough bad experiences.
The spreadsheets just help me to do it faster, so I don't have to redo the calculations over and over. and with a list of things like doorknobs, foam and shims on a door worksheet (for example) then you don't forget stuff. (Hopefully)
Labor is a different matter. In repair and remodeling no 2 jobs are alike.
I should figure a way to systematically figure how my labor hours compares to my real job performance.
When I do what I call a bill summary then I see in $ numbers how close I am to my estimate. And usually some parts go faster then I estimate and some parts take longer. But for each individual task (hanging sheetrock for instance) I don't have a system.
It would take alot of time to record hours during the day. Say Luke and Levi and Rich hanging sheetrock from 7-12, Rich and Luke installing 1st coat of tape1-3, Levi goes back to shop and puts 2nd coat of laquer on a different project 1-5:30.
I usually figure labor on an estimate as all 3 guys working. In practice we are all over the map on who does what when. It depends on the weather, the home front, rental property problems, looking at potential work.
On roof jobs we almost always make money above and beyond our wages. I pay the boys extra on jobs that make money. Usually $5/hr extra. I might make $15-20/hr extra.
At $35 per hour I think I am one of the highest priced carpenters in our area. I have talked to several established older carpenters mostly in new construction that charge $20- $22/hr. One of my competitors doesn't even mark up materials.
We are a single income family. I can't make it on that. Most carpenters in our town look down on roofing jobs as too hard or too dirty. If I can make $55/hr doing a roof and the other guy is making $20 /hr framing a house. I'll do a roof. (July and august forget it)
Easy to figure, everyone knows what to do, get paid faster. And I don't have to work with the HO to get the stain to match her wallpaper.
Sorry for getting off track. I need to do a better job of tracking my labor expenses.
Rich
Rich, one of the way we figured out how to track costs was to get the employees involved. Give them timesheets and expect them to use them and give breakdowns of the different tasks performed. Tell them (it's true in MI) that this info is needed to properly assign Worker's comp rates because each trade has a different rate. They will balk and you probably will have to force the issue, but with a little dilligence and a little discussion each day at lunch, you soon will be on your way to data heaven.You certainly are on the right path for success. Now, bump those rates up till you aren't closing at such a high rate and you'll make some dough.fka (formerly known as) blue
Thanks for the encouragement.
Rich
If someone was to ask how much a foundation would cost I can tell them right off the back a number that would probably be 2x what I'd charge with a well developed estimate. If that's all the time I have that's a good estistimate.
If someone wants a price and I have 10 minutes to figure the price I'll get closer, but it's still higher than normal. If that's all the time I have that's a good estimate.
Etc.
My advice is to keep track of how much $$$ you are spending on estimates. When I did it wasn't worthwhile to spend a great deal of time on some, while others I should probably spend more time. Cost vs. benefit.
In the end the quickest way to speed up estimating is to quit spending time estimating.
Good building
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
When I get overloaded with demands for estimates, like in the spring. I just estimate them high, and get them out quick. (That's assuming I get around to doing them.)
Don't sweat the details.
What I wanted out of people was ideas on how they estimate.
Spreadsheet? Legal pad? Estimating cost books? SF numbers for counting sticks?
How do people get your SF numbers especially for labor, when you are in a remodeling or repair market.
Business has changed. I started on my own in 1986, in September with 3 days of work lined up. Used to be people wanted you to do a job. You put it on their tab at the local lumberyard. You did the work and gave them a bill for the labor.
Now everyone wants an estimate no matter how small the job, and almost all materials run through my account.
Rich
I didn't go through the training, but one nationally known estimating author puts on workshops that a full time professional estimator friend went to. That method is essentially developing an extensive collection of well organized multipliers.
The multipliers are not unlike simple sqft costs, just more detailed and updated based on your past results.
For instance, you are estimating a new roof on a 12/12 pitch. The house has a roof "footprint" of x' by x'. Looking on your roof page of multipliers you multiply the lower level area by the multiplier for 12/12 and get a number. This number is then multiplied by another to account for the area of dormers which gives a number that should represent the rough area. That result is multiplied by another for to give the squares of shingles including waste. Another multiplier would give sheets of ply including waste. Another multiplier would give flashing costs. Etc. Add up all the results and you have an estimate after only 10 quick calculations. Another multiplier for quick caluculations would give an estimate of the whole works, albeit with higher margin of error.
A very important note about this method that has to be taken to heart or it's nothing more than garbage in garbage out is that the multipliers have to be based on real world feedback, they have to be continually updated with new information, they have to be based on easily measured dimensions, the final multipliers have all the factors figured in to produce a cost estimate, and they have to be very well organized.
The guy who puts on the course can apparently estimate a wide range of new construction houses from economy to custom within 5% in about 15 minutes using nothing but a 3-ring binder of his multipliers and a hand calculator. Like any good estimate there is room for adjusting things based on odd situations, but instead of head scratching how to do it he has a multiplier for various degrees of complexity based on his judgement. He does an astonishingly good job of estimating remodels as well, although it's not nearly as close. He challenges students to bring in plans with known build costs and he will go head to head with groups of the professional estimators in the class on speed.
For those more technically oriented, the theory that makes this all work is based in statistical errors whereas if all easily measured dimensions are tracked to the final cost breakdown there are some dimensions highly correlated to costs and many that are not. Some errors are intuitive others are not. For the highly correlated measurements we can combine those that are related to a particular segment of the building and instead of estimating 50 items each times it's price and added together we simply multiply x times y for the same number. The errors are compared to the multipliers and new multipliers are looked for that minimize errors.
It sounds easy, and those who price by the sqft will say it's the same thing by a different name, but it isn't either of those.
If I'm ever in the possition of doing large numbers of estimates for a living I'd adopt this method unless something better came along. It's adjustable to be as anal as you like, it just cust way down on the number of calculations needed.
Good building
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
That's alot of info to take in.
I'll have to read that through again tonight.
Rich
Hi Cargin (Rich),Here's a worksheet I use to compile my numbers. I have other (calculator type) sheets that I use for material takeoffs.It's nothing special, but I thought I'd post it to keep this thread alive. I've been enjoying it.One thing: I use a Mac. There shouldn't be any problems, but let me know if there are.T.N.
Cargin, heres a sample of what Chief Architecht will give you for a material list.
I had to put an order in tomorrow for a rough shell package. So I decided to take my own advice and quickly sketch the job out with Chief to create a lumber list.
It actually is a lot quicker than measuring everything. I basically just grabbed the exterior wall tool and set it to 4" siding wall. I ran it around four times because the job is a square, almost. I then quickly set the dimensions 20 x 23. I grabbed the window tool and plunked ten quick openings (8 windows 2 doors). I grabbed the interior partition tool and drew the interior walls. Keep in mind that I don't really have to place them perfectly. I did all the partitions in 30 second, never measuring anything but the entire layout looks close to the actual plan.
I then plunked in all the interior doors. After a quick set of stairs, I was ready to do the second floor. Poof! the second store is done in an instant and I do the windows and partition thing again.
After a quick roof detail setting, one click draws the roof.
A tool let me add cornerboards everywhere. ( I see from the elevation view that they didn't get put on the first floor....I'm learning)!
I added a side deck and put aroof over it.
With that, I clicked build framing and then called for the material list.
I then created an 8x17 front covered porch with a layed over roof too.
I'm just learning the program so some of those processes took me some time to remember where the settings were, but once I was adept at this, I could redo that simple plan in under ten minutes.
EDIT; I removed a useless large bmp file
jim
fka (formerly known as) blue
Edited 10/23/2007 9:39 pm ET by Jim_Allen
Heres a better picture of the real spreadsheet inside the program. I also tossed in a pic of the second floor plan and the extra covered porch plan.fka (formerly known as) blue
Thanks
Very impressive and quick.
I want to comment, but they will take some study and deciphering.
It's 10:55PM and I need to get to bed.
Rich
I looked over the materials list. It looks like you have to take it from there and still work out some materials.
Like GN 1 was 33 LF of 8' wall?
Then you have to figure studs and plates after this?
I guess I was expecting a mat. list that you could take to the yard.
Like
100 -92 5/8"studs
250LF - 2"x4"
32- 4'x9'x1/2" OSB
I am not trying to be critical. I am just trying to understand their system and make myself more efficient.
By the way all of you I am really enjoying this thread.
I probably need to get out more like Silver.
Rich
You are right Cargin, it did need some more work. I dont' think I showed you the right framing section but it would deliver those numbers exactly as you describe and want. I did spend some time deciphering how it thinks and there would be some learning curve. I did a redraw today in a remarkable short amount of time. I made sure I set the right defaults before I started drawing and that cleaned up my material list in a big way. I think I could whip out a material list for a basic basement with several closets, a bath and bar area in five minutes. Shoot me a theortetical test and I'll time it (the program has a timer) and you can compare the numbers. Dont' make it too hard to think bout though...this is supposed to be for fun.
fka (formerly known as) blue
In my 1st post to start this thread I have a basement worksheet. Just cranked it out fast to have fun.
40' x 28' 8' height
2 bedrooms 12' x 14' w/ closets 1 bath 12 x 14
I picture a center wall. Bedrooms on one end, bath and mechanical on the other end, with stairs between the bath and mechanical room.
All carpet except bathroom with is vinyl.
Suspended ceiling through out. In my worksheet I have carpet and ceiling in the mechanical. Didn't think about ductwork to work around. Remember this is supposed to be fun.
I envisioned center wall existing and then a header installed to open up the family room in the center. All other walls have to be framed.
3 windows existing in my scenario.
Bathroom has 6o" x 32" tub/shower, toilet and 36" vanity and sink.
Walls are 1 1/2" Pink stryofoam with 2x2" furring strips and sheetrock walls.
All other walls are 2x4 with SR. I'll just re attach that file.
Hope this isn't too much detail.
Rich
Edited 10/25/2007 10:02 am ET by cargin
That sounds like a typical basement...I'll give it a go after I get my real work done.fka (formerly known as) blue
I am assuming that the Chief Architect materials list will not have prices.
I'll enter the data from your list into my worksheet.
I'll create a couple new columns side by side.
And we will see what comes out of the mix.
Tonight I am going to take my wife out on a date then to the HS choir concert.
I will be delayed in getting to this.
I won't stay up late to work on it. BT is too addictive, I need to keep my regular bedtime.
Rich
I'll look at this tomorrow and comment then.
It's betime for this bonzo.
Rich
True North
Is this an estimate that you give to the customer?
Or is this for your eyes only?
I usually go to Word after my spreadsheet and put together a Bid or estimate like below.
Rich, I use a Word template for actually submitting an estimate to the customer.I have to admit, I no longer use Excel or Word much anymore. After several months of customizing, I am very happy with Goldenseal.http://www.turtlesoft.comIt takes a lot of work to get it right, but when it is, it's great.T.N.
haven't read the other posts... but you know how you tell your customers ...
they can have SPEED.... PRICE .... or ...QUALITY... any two..?
but never all three
same with estimating:
SPEED..
PRECISION....
or... RISK MANAGEMENT..
and forget about trying to make up losses in volume.. you just increase the volume of your losses
You said it well.
Thank you for the reply.
In the opening post I shared a couple of home made spreadsheets that I use to figure estimates. Roofing and basements.
I do almost all my figuring on a spreadsheet format anymore.
I was hoping to get people to share their spreadsheet techinques.
Rich
i use a program called GCWorks.. it uses templates in ClarisWorks and Quickbooks...
i can do one page worksheets or 25 category -6 page detailed estimates.... and of course each line item in the detailed estimate can be the summation of whole notebooks of source info.
the real problem is , of course... in-house labor
and writing a spec for my subs that tell them the true story
and having the discipline to stick with the mark-ups, i know from experience, i need to stay in business
my version is the old version... the new one is called BuildWorks and uses templates in Excell & QB Pro
http://www.synapsesoftware.com/Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks
I'll down load one of those free 10 day trial softwares and look it over.
In-house labor. There is the problem. I have to find ways to analysis my actual labor costs and find a way to convert that from remodel to remodel. Or repair to repair.
Rich
Impressive what Chief Architect can do,Jim. I'm still trying to learn excel...
Interesting thread for me as I am applying knowledge gleaned from Breaktime and basically set up my first excel sheet today. My son
came out and helped me with the basics and my brother sent me a great tutorial but there ain't no other way but to get in there and start thrashing.
Cargin wanted to see other examples and for what it's worth, I just finished this. I always wait a day after working on an estimate and come back to it before I write a proposal.
silver
Congragulations Silver
You did better than me with your 1st spreadsheet.
My kids knew nothing about spreadsheets ans still don't.
But they intuitively knew how to do things with Works first then Excel.
I would get so frustrated at first.
I copied and pasted your worksheet on a blank Excel worksheet.
Then I reworked some things. With your permissioin after the fact of course.
The hours columns had totals. But you were manually transfering those # to the Final totals. I put formulas in the total cells. So now when you add or subtract hours it automatically updates the final totals.
Then I made a copy of the worksheet to the right of orginal. Great idea from NatW (an earlier post) then I deleted (highlight cell then hit the delete key.)the hours for tearing out walls and you. Now you have two options for the HO with just 2 clicks. One with walls out one with wall in. (Sorry I had to pick some aspect of the job to change.
When you see this on BT. Have a blank excel sheet open. Go to the sheet on BT, highlight the whole thing (click on the bottom right, hold down the mouseand drag to the top left.) Hit control C, open blank sheet and hit control V. Then you have the sheet where you can use it and see it better.
Notice I like color in my sheets.
Rich
Hi Rich,I had time tonight to re- read this entire thread and open your attachments. The colour is a great idea-and I like what you did
with my estimate. There are lots of good ideas and I'll use several..and true to this thread...they will help speed my estimating so I thank you for your time. I'll paste what you did into my worksheet when I rework it.I have a few questions for you...I see you markup material 17%+/-
and labour 10%+/- How do you cover overhead and profit? I'm curious because I'm reworking my numbers on the tear-out/rail job. On my second meeting, when I met my customer's wife for the first time, I managed to sell them both on my company...and the next meeting will be price and 1/3 down.After I read Michael Stone's book "Mark-up and Profit for Contractor's" I started marking up job costs(material and labour) 30 to 35%. I want to go higher now but am thinking of subs and material at 30% labour at 40%.On labour, that breaks down to a 10% margin,10% profit and 20% overhead. However, it'still a work in progress. Phil
I charge $35/hour for myself, $25 for my oldest son and $17/hr for my youngest son.
I pay them $20 and $12. The youngest still lives with me. They are both part of the corporation.
17% is 10% for materials markup and 7% for sales tax because those worksheet number are pretax.
Roofs I usually bid and the boys usually make an extra $5/hr and I can make $15-20/hr.
I have been reading other posts for several years about overhead and profit markup.
I work in a market where most of the carpenters are charging $20 to $25 /hour. But I don't know for sure. Some have told me but that is difficult information to get.
Most guys are working in loose partnerships. Brothers or cousins. Sometimes you will see Jones Construction out fron and other times it's Smith Construction but it's the same group of guys.
I have had at least two clients tell me that they checked my references before they hired me and the all said the same thing. "You'll pay more for him but it will be done right the first time".
I have a thread going at "My handicap son may be moving out", so you will understand why I am a blue collar guy living on a single income in a white collar two income world.
Almost all my competition has a working wife. That's the only way they have health insurance and retirement. Not to mention the fancy pickups and all the tools.
I've self employed for 25 years and it rubs me the wrong way when I see young guys with a couple years under their belt have all the nice tools and tool trailers and skytracks.
Maybe I am just stupid but it took me longer than that to learn how to do the trade and even longer to do the business.
I broke away from a big house builder (alcoholic) in 1986 with 3 days lined up. Since that time I have done whatever is legal and pays the bills. Mostly small jobs and remodeling/repair. 2-3 years before 86" we had the farm crisis and we were all on our own. You were happy to find a job.
Never been been in new construction since. For a while I know that remodeling was more profitable. But it is more glamourous to build a house than it is to hang storm doors and repair rotten steps.
Rich
"Almost all my competition has a working wife. That's the only way they have health insurance and retirement. Not to mention the fancy pickups and all the tools. I've self employed for 25 years and it rubs me the wrong way when I see young guys with a couple years under their belt have all the nice tools and tool trailers and skytracks. Maybe I am just stupid but it took me longer than that to learn how to do the trade and even longer to do the business.
I hear your complaints and can share the frustration. As a single mom who then cut into the business, I worked up from used tools and old trucks and having to do all the business and the field work myself, with the help of an older more experienced carpenter in the field.
Its a fact I have to live with and not let it get to me that many younger guys come into the trade with assistance from parents, still living with mom and dad and/or also having the wife doing the paperwork, phone answering and such for no pay whatsoever. Its tough to compete with that but I believe quality work, honesty and experience still trump all the other advantages.
Girlbuilder
I was a little frustrated that day.
Most contractors in my area are not saving for retirement. What we charge has to reflect our real costs and that includes savings for the future.
I have a wife who does the books for us. She is a stay at home mom. I do everything that has to do with income (billing, estimates, bids) she does everything do do with outgo (paying the bills and balancing the checkbook).
My 21 year old is still staying at home. My rule is stay home till I kick you out, don't buy a car until you have to and invest your money. Both of my boys are buying rental property.
Levi my 21 year old bought a 4 plex this spring. He worked on it all summer. He could not have done that if was paying rent and buying groceries. We are trying to teach our boys to front load their lives so that they are not spending all their time playing catch up.
Your are lucky that you have an older mentor that can teach you. I am mostly self taught both the business and the trade. And I am a slow learner. I am definitely not a natural at construction. But I love the work.
If you have some techinques or spreadsheets that you use to speed up estimating please share them.
Rich
After reading your post I dug around this thread for this gem from Mike Smith which was a real eye opener for me:"we do make enough money to stay in business and pay our insurance and buy new tools and vehicles.. it's how we've managed to stay in business for 30 years... but it never really happened until i changed my mindset about charging enough for our workthe first step was in recognizing that my " competitors " were all in my mind.. i really didn't have any competition.. i really just have a relationship with my customers.. we're going to give them the best job we know how... and this is how much we're going to charge to do it"As you said,"Its tough to compete with that but I believe quality work, honesty and experience still trump all the other advantages."
I don't know how it works for you, but in a male dominated profession, you certainly have something unique to offer-especially to women who have much of the buying and decision making power.BTW, your profile says you're from New England-I'm an ex-pat from near
Boston-New England is so beautiful! cheers,
silver
..and Cargin:My middle child wants to buy income property and I want all of them to attend college. I have two girls and one son and am especially concerned that the girls get some kind of foothold into the ability to generate their own income. That was what I was never taught, of course until I was already over my head and I learned on my own.My son stays at home but he has to help out financially with managing the household and has his own responsibilities as well. I know how it is out the world (I've been on my own since seventeen) and its not good if one is not prepared, we as parents have an obligation I think, to teach our children what responsibility is all about--there's no picnic out there.Yes, I consider myself fortunate that I have a mentor, but let me tell you, I metaphorically picked up him off the beach, glittering among the other sands, unpolished, neglected as he was and chose to him help out in a time of crises and deal with his faults if he'll deal with mine, so its a trade-off.Silver: Sometimes being a female is ok and helpful, but oftentimes it is a hindrance. This society is far away from dealing with women in non-traditional roles and many people I think are uncomfortable with seeing me in the trade. I get second-guessed alot and dismissed alot and other times, respected more than usual, so who knows? Seems like it levels out at the end of the day and my gender really gives me no advantage at all. I just know one thing for sure: I don't do well working in a situation where I don't know what's coming at me next or can't control it or create it and I can't sit still for more than about an hour without going nuts. So I guess swinging a hammer and being self employed is where I'm stuck, whether I make a buck or not.Cargin: I don't think my spreadsheets are anything special or fancy, I was more going to look at what others posted here.
Girlbuilder
Show us your spreadsheets, special or not. We all want to learn new ways (better) of doing things and maybe you have something we are not seeing.
Being a woman can be a two edged sword. 99% of the people I work for (that make the decision or make the phone call) are women. One would think that would give you an advantage.
But women are funny creatures, just when you figure them out they change. I have talked with several women who would rather work for a male boss than a female boss. The queen bee thing I guess.
With competition I just have to keep in mind that we are all just trying to feed our families. When I was new to the business I would have a competitive mindset, or wonder why they got the job and I didn't. I've learned to relax. I get along with all the contractors in town.
Sounds like you are doing a good job of raising your kids. My kids learned early that they had to work for what they wanted. They were not entitled to anything.
My daughter is harder to raise. She is interested in drama, music and english. Teaching her to work (like mowing the yard) has been much harder. I don't have the answer on how to teach her be self supporting yet.
Gotta go.
Rich
I don't do well working in a situation where I don't know what's coming at me next or can't control it or create it and I can't sit still for more than about an hour without going nuts. So I guess swinging a hammer and being self employed is where I'm stuck, whether I make a buck or not.Girlbuilder:
I was busy on the weekend but I was thinking about what you wrote...I have 4 kids and same as you want them to learn as much as they can the easy way-sounds like you learned lots from the school of hard knocks...I know I did. I've been on my own since I was 17 as well and I agree with your quote above with 1 exception-I'm determined now to make a buck and 35% OH/profit on that buck or stay home and watch Captain Kangaroo. cheers,
silver
<em>"I've been on my own since I was 17 as well and I agree with your quote above with 1 exception-I'm determined now to make a buck and 35% OH/profit on that buck or stay home and watch Captain Kangaroo."</em>I hear on that! I was discussing another business opportunity with a friend of mine yesterday, while also discussing marketing options for this business and my friend said, "Hey! Slow down! You can only make so much money in your lifetime ya know!" "Sure, I said, when I get to the middle class, I'll recontemplate my ambitions."He couldn't argue with that. I got hit hard on a job last year and took about a $50,000 dollar loss. I was seriously considering throwing it all away and joining the Peace Corps. It helps me at least, to know I have options no matter how bad things get.
Sounds like your family is important so that always helps to keep us focused...You read Think and Grow Rich by Nappy Hill? That's a good one
if you haven't read it and emphasizes the importance of mental work...Anyway, back to office work for me...needed a bit of diversion...I really hope you're having a better year!cheers,silver
He couldn't argue with that. I got hit hard on a job last year and took about a $50,000 dollar loss. I was seriously considering throwing it all away and joining the Peace Corps. It helps me at least, to know I have options no matter how bad things get.
Girlbuilder
If you don't mind my asking, what went down on that job?silver
Short Version:Contractural issues which caused a major shift in the scope and direction of the project, I was locked into the contract with homeowner from first plans on a different understanding of job from different participants in assembling the contract (other professionals' input), decided to forge ahead, little did I know the depth of the cavern ahead of me. Its complicated and this explanation doesn't flush out all the issues, but I think you can get the drift.I am considering litigation, so I'd rather not discuss it further in a public forum.
Just naturally curious,girl builder...I sincerely hope it all works out for you.A lawyer once convinced me to take another lawyer to small claims court over contract disputes...I think they needed some comic relief that week.But I never forgot the experience and every time I write a contract I think about the hard lessons I learned that day.silver
Phil
I had to go earlier.
I still wanted to mention a couple of things about Excel.
If you put a date in a cell, then fill the column under it, it will progressively advance the date. Say I put 11/25 in a cell, then go down one cell. Excel will change that to 11/25/07. Then if I use fill it the cells below will be 11/26/07, then 11/27/07 and so on.
I use that in my Bill Summary to record my hours worked and to track job costs. If it's T&M then it's to figure the bill, if it's a Bid then to figure out how I fared. If it's a T&M job with several billings I know what materials and what dates have been billed for.
The Oct 2006 issue of JLC had an article on spreadsheet estimating. It's good. I really opened my eyes to the potential of a spreadsheet. I saw that the spreadsheet could be organized to do more than just be calculator. If I worked out some formulas then Excel could do some calculations based upon SF or LF. When I figured jobs by hand I was using some of the same calculations over and over. I thought why not let Excel do it. I don't know what jobs you do, other than handrails, but expand your thinking. Try to find ways that computer can work for you.
I am going to reread the article and maybe buy a couple of the books mentioned in this thread. There was a couple of estimating programs I want to try the trail program too.
One of the functions in the article was to use the roundup feature. Say if the SF = 20.5 piece of plywood then it would round up to 21.
Like you I am starting to see that the money is made in the office first, then executed in the field. You still have to be good at using your time in the field. But I need to bid it right the first time.
Just random thoughts and my desire to see you grow in your spreadsheet skills.
Rich
Thanks for thinking about me Rich. I'll do my homework and get back to you shortly.Phil
It's still snowing-big flakes and steady and its adding up. Great day to work in the office.I just copied my homework and worked through it on your blank worksheet...dude, I learned some new stuff...thanks and for the advice...
let the 'puter do the talking...I'm firing up your blank worksheet to do a quick estimate...saving me time and you're right....the more you know, the more you can let the program do the work for you...I've tutored before and I'd say you're good at it...I've got to track that article from JLC down...maybe I can download it online...top of the morning to you,silver
Phil
I didn't know how much you knew about Excel. Glad I didn't offend you.
When I go to "Help" on the computer, it always assumes I know something critical. Or it is speaking in a language I don't understand. Heck I don't what I am doing that is why I am asking for help. Sometimes Help is not help at all.
So that's why I assumed you didn't know some of the basics. And you don't really know them until you use it yourself.
If you have any questions just ask. That's keep the thread going.
The JLC article will really expand your thinking.
You can keep the snow, we still have a fair amount of outside work to do. Nights have been in the teens and low 20s (F) and days in the mid 30s, but windy. Gusts of 50 mph today.
I want snow for Christmas and one big blizzard, that's enough snow for me.
Unless I have plenty of inside work, then who cares.
Rich
Rich,I'm planning on getting some new x country skis so I dig the snow...can ski right to the back 40 across the pond. We have lots of horse/ski trails. And now the septic won't freeze!Hard to offend me regarding excel stuff...limited knowledge so it all helps...Practice makes perfect...and I'm improving!silver
Good Evening Phil
Sounds like a nice place you have there. Must be out in the country. I suppose you have horses too?
Snow is great as long as I don't have to work in it. I like winter, but right now I still have my summer coat. I haven't gotten used to the cold weather yet.
Come spring these tempatures will feel pretty warm.
Besides custom handrails what kind of jobs do you do?
That JLC article used Excel to figure roofing, but they logic could be transfered to many different applications.
Well I have figure a couple of bills.
See ya
Rich
Hi Rich,
I'm working on my marketing:Phil Hill Custom Carpentry Inc.
“A fine design, well executed, on budget, on timeâ€
Experienced Insured Trusted
Attention To Detail
Renovations Kitchens Bathrooms
Handrails & Finish Carpentry
Custom CabinetsWe own 160 acres(1/4 section) in northwestern Ontario...I'm an ex pat from Mass. Yep, my girls have 4 horses and that's what brings them to Germany...they're working on a horse farm there.I'm finishing up a couple excel estimates...now I won't do an estimate without creating a spreadsheet so that's a help. I still create a word
doc then an excel spreadsheet and finally back to word to create an invoice. I noted with interest that some of the guys have programs that do that for you...for me,it's a process...an improving process I'm happy to say.12" of snow overnight and today-this afternoon I put the plow on and plowed us out and a neighbor...living in the country is a luxury. silver
Phil
For me all estimates start with a speadsheet usually a template from one of my stable of worksheets. After I have the numbers together then I go to Word.
Usually I have a template or I use a similar job from the past and then just reword the proposal. Have to be careful there because if I get lazy I can leave stuff in that shouldn't be there.
We don't do contracts. Just a proposal then the people say ok. Then we do the job.
I e-mailed a proposal (door replacement) to a lady yesterday, they e-mailed me some questions, I answered them by e-mail, she e-mailed tonight to go ahead with it. The yard e-mailed me the door info last week, so I suppose I could just e-mail the saleman to order the stuff. Who would have thought such a thing 10 years ago.
My invoices are handwritten on invoices that I have printed up with my comapany name and logo. If the the invoice gets complicated then I usually turn the proposal into a invoice with so wording changes. Sometimes I e-mail invoices too.
Some my invoices I just write up in the driveway and hand it to the customer at the end of the job. Usually I have done a bill summary the night before on Excel, so all I have to add is the day's labor and any last minute materials.
19 years ago I lived in the country too. 1 acre, 10 miles out. We lived there for about 10 years, heated with wood, big garden, couple of dogs. Tried to do the Mother Earth News thing.
Moved to town into a run down cheap victorian house. I've been there ever since, fixing it up.
Rich
PS May be should start a new thread call Phil and Rich just talking.
Slightly overwhelmed today...crashed early but couldn't sleep.Have a bid thats due tomorrow- 2 1815-appropriate ox carts.I've done that kind of work before...fired up reworked blank from you that I recently customized and in 1/2hr.had 90% done-do I'm laughing tonight...
time for some shut eye...Thanks Rich,Phil
Good morning Phil
Post a copy of that oxcart worksheet if you don't mind.
I would like to see how you work and how you think.
I slept like a log.
Visited Tim last night . Very pumped to go visit.
Feeling guilty afterwards. All this freedom in our lives that we were looking forward to seems so cheap and selfish now. My parental urge is to bring him home.
He's OK, just lonely. Staff does things different than Mom and Dad. There are not many residents in his house that are as verbal or as intelligent as he is.
It's hard to judge though. Many are trapped in bodies that don't work. They try to talk and not much comes out. Like I've said before I know his days at work and at classroom are fullfilling, it's just nights and weekends that I worry about.
We just have to give it a couple of months. I hope he can move into a waiver home within a year or 2.
A waiver home is 3-5 residents, usually off campus, with support staff. It's usually a remodeled ranch that is privately owned and the residents make more of their life decisions like shopping and meal planning. The residents still go to the Village to work and attend classes and get physical therapy they just live in a more family like setting. His current room opened up because the man moved into a waiver home.
They are trying to build a couple of waiver homes on campus, but that against the rules. There currently is one just across the street from campus and that's okay.
I would love to see your worksheet.
Rich
Hi Rich,
I see your last post is dated Nov.30...I'm into the Christmas rush...a good time of the year to make some money. I have a day off/office day today. I was out for a walk with the dogs and I was thinking about you and Tim...hope you're feeling better...It sounds like it's a good thing for Tim with lots of new opportunities...
I think you did the right thing, if that helps. I have a couple of estimates to do tonight and I'll post them and a few others, if you like. In October I would have done them in word but now
I prefer excel...I learned a lot from this thread and you. cheers,Phil
Hi Phil
Good to hear from you again. Yes I would like to see the estimates and how you have customized an Excel spreadsheet. I always want to learn.
I posted over the weekend on My Handicap son may be moving out.
It's still tough. The 1st week was really rough for him and us. We really couldn't warn him about homesickness. 1st because it would become a self fullfilling statement and 2nd because he would not know what we are talking about. By the middle of the second week he was adjusting pretty well.
We had him home this weekend for Sat. afternoon until about 3 on Sun. afternoon. At first he didn't know if he wanted to come home. He is starting to bond with staff. We had his brother and his wife over for supper and the Grandpa and Grandma over after church for a big lunch.
Lots of talking and laughing. His brothers teased him pretty good. He asked me to come up and watch football with him next Sunday, which I'll do, we're going to take him to church up there anyway.
He wasn't sad when we took him back. 2 years ago he would have broken out crying for sure. I try to keep my mind off it at night.
I bet you're fired up to have the girls home for Christmas. Happy time in the Hill home. Enjoy it.
I wish I could think of a new thread to get going to keep this train of thought going. I needed it to expand my thinking about my business.
I read your thread on improving your business. I almost missed it. Somethimes threads can come and go so fast. I didn't have much new to add. My business isn't in the same league as some of these guys. I still think small. I think like a craftsman. And yet I have my 2 sons helping me and needing my business guidance.
It's tough teaching them the trade. Plumbing and wiring are easy to teach compared to carpentry. We are all remodeling and repair. Whatever comes down the pipe. Some times it's finish sometimes it rough work. Sometimes drywall sometimes staining and varnishing.
We stripped that oak door with the striped look. Didn't get all the stain out. Used golden oak gel stain, followed by providencel gel stain and then we dry brushed the providencel gel stain on. The customer was pleased. I could still see the veneers.
Post the Excel sheets. I would love to see them.
Rich
"It's tough teaching them the trade. Plumbing and wiring are easy to teach compared to carpentry. We are all remodeling and repair. Whatever comes down the pipe. Some times it's finish sometimes it rough work. Sometimes drywall sometimes staining and varnishing."This caught my eye...what about the carpentry apprenticeship program...
a good way to learn...in Canada apprentices go on pogy and go to school for 8 weeks once a year for 3 years...silver
Phil
I don't know of anything like that around here. We have the community college system where they teach carpentry. I have never checked it out.
I local HVAC contractor has not been impressed by the graduates.
The boys are in training every day. They are becoming very well rounded. There is just so much to learn and I need to release the reins and let them fail once an a while.
Rich
Phil
This a new concept in worksheets. I want to use the SF numbers from National Insurance Remodeling and Repair by Craftsman to check my own estimating.
I am using that because I did a search here a found some good comments about it, and it doesn't hurt that it was only about $25 to download. I think Jerald Hayes (sp) had some good things to say about it.
I chose to do this 1st with a vinyl siding worksheet because it's simple.
The 1st part of the sheet just figures SF for me. Most siding jobs have alot of different wall areas and gable areas.
The SF numbers from the 1st sheet transfer over to the Nat. Insurance worksheet (#2) then the totals from #2 show up on #1.
I don't know how this can fit into your operation, but when I am doing estimates I would like another opinion on how long a certain job will take.
Every job is unique, so I still have to line item a job.
Rich
Hey Rich,
"I don't know how this can fit into your operation, but when I am doing estimates I would like another opinion on how long a certain job will take.Every job is unique, so I still have to line item a job."I agree with you on that one. I have to laugh. On my latest project that I've been reworking I had 5 hrs. for estimating. After looking it over, DW (Minny) says-ah I think 5 hrs for estimating is a bit much.A quick note on what Jerrald added to the finish carp post:I try to add time for estimating/selling/set-up/tear down/pu material/margins and sometimes it can get out of hand. I like Mike Smith's idea-mobilization and demobilization.I've been totally caught up in the Christmas rush... After finishing a fireplace mantle project in the shop this afternoon, I had some time to chill and read BT and answered a post with a reference to you and this thread.So I thought I would check back in...had a quick look at the vinyl siding sheet-may be useful in the near future-thanks!I'm not proud of my spreadsheets but I am attaching my latest effort...and I take criticism well so don't be shy.The one I posted is take 2 and I just got off the phone with my customer,Mark. He wants me to rework the quote again...this time taking off some of the balusters and adding more glass. I had to bite my tongue...he finds my price too high and is trying to find a way to get it lower...his wife asked me to break it down-sorry, I don't do that.Anyway, I love excel...especially for requoting...so easy to change things! DW is out in the shop spraying the latest project and she thinks I should quote one last time...because we haven't met quota for this month.OK but finishing will be an option and the glass will be his responsibility not mine which will drop the price lots...he's priced it out from another place in town and got a better price...so I'll let him deal with the glass...reduces my stress, liability and it's not a glass rail when I leave...Zoey and Crystal fly home on Chritmas Eve at 10:00pm-had a few moments
when I 've been thinking about my family being together for the holidays and have to admit, tears of joy well up in my eyes.Hope all is well with Tim and your family-been thinking about you especially when I heard you might get a big snow storm out your way. back to excel and again Rich thanks for your help and interest...It
wasn't intuitive at first and I used to get frustrated but once you get it working...cool! cheers,silver
Here's that attachment...silver
Good to hear from you Phil
I was 1/2 way answering this post when I saw you posted the attachment. I went over to look at it and I lost my reply. Bummer.
Looking forward to Christmas Eve? I'm happy for you/
Tim is doing better every day. He called his Mom today. His former aide from school was visiting him ( she is still very attached) and she suggested that he call. He wouldn't think of it on his own. That is what he needs to do, a paradigm shift in thinking. He needs to tell his care givers he wants to go visit some one or make a phone call.
What do you mean by making qouta?
I wish I had a DW who would spray woodwork. I should be happy she does the books.
In the other post about the finsih carpenter I am probably going to get hammered by Jerrald Hayes for not being a good business man. I think he is pretty sophisticated and my spreadsheets are pretty simple. That's ok that's how I learn and how I will get out of my current practices. I have been to his website and it's way over my head.
Back to your spreadsheet. What are the numbers in columns C &D. Are they related to column E?
I din't see any formulas any any of the cells. How are you totaling you columns?
Are you using a calculator and then manually entering the numbers?
Rich
Tim is doing better every day. He called his Mom today. His former aide from school was visiting him ( she is still very attached) and she suggested that he call. He wouldn't think of it on his own. That is what he needs to do, a paradigm shift in thinking. He needs to tell his care givers he wants to go visit some one or make a phone call.Hi Rich,I'm glad to hear about Tim...a paradigm shift in thinking...I think that is something we all need. I bet your wife was happy to hear from him!qouta? Quota...$10,000 a mo. minimum...this month I still need 8 large."I am probably going to get hammered by Jerrald Hayes for not being a good business man. I think he is pretty sophisticated and my spreadsheets are pretty simple. That's ok that's how I learn and how I will get out of my current practices. I have been to his website and it's way over my head." I respect Jerrald and try to understand but I can't quite grasp a lot of the things he says either. But I try...As for yourself, I think you're doing a good job at where you're at and trying to improve and better yourself so give yourself a bit more
credit.I do have formulas that are working and self total-I was kind of tickled to get that working and no I'm not adding manually. I just
saved take 3-changed some of the numbers in the cells and the totals
came up automatically...I think column E is a think column...I'll check on thatsilver
Phil
Are you saying that you want to gross $10,000 / month?
And what do you mean by 8 large?
I'll check on take 2 and try to change some #s . When I clicked on the cell I didn't see andy formulas come up in the top box.
Rich
"Are you saying that you want to gross $10,000 / month?" That was the target for this year...
I'll be raising it as I tune my business plan over the holidays/ And what do you mean by 8 large? $8,000.00"When I clicked on the cell I didn't see andy formulas come up in the top box." As far as I know they're working...just did take 3 in 10 minutes to a new and lower number.BTW, do you know how to use colours in these posts...I can't figure out how to do it.
silver
Good Morning Phil
$8,000 to go and one week to do it in. Go get em.
How to use color. In the reply post a set of boxes appear above (paragraph, font,size, color).
Once I have cut and pasted someone elses comments, then I highlight them (I start at the end of the sentence, left click and hold as you highlight what you want to change color or font or size). Then hit the blue arrow next to color and select the color. Do this at the end of the post because everything you type after that sentence will be the color you selected. Then you have to go back and reenter the color black.
You may already know some of this, but when I was first learning computer I didn't know some very basic things, and when I would try to get help people thought I knew how to do something and I was still ignorant of that skill.
Lower number because you took glass out of the project. Right. You didn't lower your price. Right.
If you don't mind show me take 3. See what I mean the color keeps going even though I want it to switch to black.
Rich
Morning Rich,Problem is...I don't have those boxes and can't seem to turn them on. Just checked my preferences and it says they're on?? Maybe I don't have IE 5? I tried everything I know to turn the boxes on...I'm finishing up take 3 this am while Min finishes spraying final coats of lacquer...I'm lucky to have such a talented partner...besides the books and the finishing, she does all the design work in the business as well from houses to renos to board room tables to high end entertainment centres...what do I do>LOLI'll send take 3 and the proposal pronto-I enjoy your feedback. I think we have similar operations/mindsets...seems that way anyway.Snow flurries and I've got Christmas carols on I-tunes...not so bad...I always feel guilty doing estimates during the day...real work is in the shop or on the site.Fact is, the money is made in the office and I pay way more attention to my pricing and estimates now...1 job sold low and you're working your bag off for nothing...too old for that. I've became really aware of what Jim Allen said-wearing 3 hats and
not as efficient as 3 separate people...carpenter, manager, salesman...I go into the shop to work and it's a mess...tune-up the machines and get ready to rock and roll...I'm more aware of the entire
process I go through and I think that's a good thing.I have my eye on a self employed carpenter who I hope to hire 1-2 days
a week in the New Year to help me with production...which is where I seem to need help these days.Phil
Just wrapped these up and now off to pack the van for the fireplace mantle install so Santa can come to that home >:>}Attached is take 3.cheers,silver
Phil
Not much time. Take 3 has formulas in it.
I'll reply later.
Keep watching the post about the finish carpenter. I hope we have some good dialogue.
Rich
Good evening Phil
I've been messing with your worksheet. I guess you knew I would do that when you posted it to me.
I think it is good to build your own spreadsheets. You tend to build them like your thinking is organized. Second you build it you know it.
I did not find take 3 to be easy to understand, and it was very long or linear. I like to put as much information in front of me as I can.
I reorganized the sheet so that the materials are on the left. A corresponding labor action is on the right. (Can't always have this but you get the concept). One newel post requires a labor entry of x number of hours.
Your orginal sheet is #1, click on the bottom boxes where it says Rich and then you will see my version.
Let me know what you think.
Rich
that attachment thru the 'puter for a loop...
is there a plan "B"???
did I ever tell ya I hate vista.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Imerc
I'll post my version alone.
You will have to go back to Phil's earlier post to view his.
I don't know if this will work for you. I could open it off BT just fine.
The best way to view it is to cut and paste it on a blank spreadsheet.
Rich
got it...
seperate worked just fine...
together.... not so good...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I just joined this discussion because I too find myself spending an inordinate amount of time putting proposals together for what I have landed. I've heard that you lose 5 to 1 and that seems about right to me. It's gotten to the point where I've had to enter into a pre construction services agreement with people if they want me to price out their project for them so I can have some return for investing a whoppin amount of time pricing out their addition for example and then find out they just wanted to know how much it would cost. I got burned a couple of times by that.
But this is what I use for estimating:
http://www.designconcepts.com/
It ain't cheap mind you. I think I paid $1100.00 for it a couple of years ago but it comes complete with estimating spreadsheets, scheduling, tons of contracts, and a ton of other stuff. Plus free webinars to help you learn the system and a subscription tech support service that has paid for itself in no time. It's really cool how they do it. The tech's literally access your computer remotely from wherever in the world they are and drive your mouse all around the screen showing you how to do this and that. Pretty cool. There is a 30 day free trial as a "read only" format if you want to sign up for it to try it out. It produces a very sexy proposal that my clients really appreciate the professional look that it has. So if you want to come across as professional as you can check out this system.
BjR
BTW: I am not affiliated with this product other than as a satisfied customer.
BjR
That's the 3rd estimating/business system that has been suggested in this thread.
What is the continuing cost of this system? Monthly/ Qtrly/ Yearly?? The exactimate (sp) software mentioned in an earlier post has a $184/qtr cost.
Does the system update prices?
What kind of projects do you do and how big is your company?
I am mostly remodeling and repair, in a very rural setting. Town is about 10,000. I work with my 2 sons. Most jobs are $1,000 to $5,000.
With estimates/ commitments I would say I do better than 1 to 5. Sometimes it's 1 to 3 and sometimes I get nearly everything I look at.
But in a small town in know most everyone who calls, they already know I am the not the cheapest guy in town and that I'll be on the jobsite most of the time. And I have 2 of the most likable sons that people enjoy having in their homes. People have told me all these things.
This winter when it get slow I intend to do some of these free trials.
Thanks for posting.
Rich
BjR
That's the 3rd estimating/business system that has been suggested in this thread.
What is the continuing cost of this system? Monthly/ Truly/ Yearly?? The exactimate (sp) software mentioned in an earlier post has a $184/qtr cost. I haven't spent anything on it other than the purchase price for the system I wanted at the time. There are ala cart type add ons you can get but I haven't found them necessary for me. Like Quickbooks for example, integrates with this system. I prefer to spring for a book keeper to save my aggravation factor for doing the accounting. That way I'm comfy that it's done right and gives me more time for the fam. I have purchased additional online tech help though, but that's optional and it really does pay for itself in a short order as it shortens your learning curve. And now they have started these free "webinars" that look pretty informative but I haven't actually did one yet. I was signed up for one the other day but missed it because it took longer to sign contracts with a client.
Does the system update prices? Haven't experienced this if your asking if they charge me a monthly fee. Like every thing else, I'm sure they have had to periodically increase the costs of their product line. There are several types of programs available with UDA but I've never considered needing a different program than what I've got.
What kind of projects do you do and how big is your company? I'm a one man shop in Seattle doing residential and commercial remodeling and construction management. I don't have employees but use a very reputable temporary agency that services local contractors with carpenters/labor when I need a helping hand. I've been out on my own for two years. In the biz for 27 years. I got busted up in a work accident in 03 so I'm limited in what I can do so I don't want projects that are taxing my injury so I try to take projects that I can manage as a sub show and I'm the onsite person managing things and performing within my physical limitations.
I am mostly remodeling and repair, in a very rural setting. Town is about 10,000. I work with my 2 sons. Most jobs are $1,000 to $5,000. You are blessed my friend..... Seattle area is over a million and a half people and half of those are contractors it seems like. In May I had a quarter million dollar/ 8 month long project go away after I started it because the owner had some investments go south on him and I was one month into it. I've bid on over a million dollars worth of projects since June and just this week signed a rotten $32,000 project for a bipolar nut case who can't/won't make up her mind on what she wants and complains about the code regulations imposed by the municipality. She's the one who wanted to put a toilet out in the open in her garage I posted about a while ago. So she gets pissed off at me as if I'm telling her she can't do it when the city won't let her do half the stuff she wants to. If I didn't need some cash flow I would have bailed after the toilet in the garage thing.
With estimates/ commitments I would say I do better than 1 to 5. Sometimes it's 1 to 3 and sometimes I get nearly everything I look at. As I said, you are blessed.
But in a small town in know most everyone who calls, they already know I am the not the cheapest guy in town and that I'll be on the jobsite most of the time. And I have 2 of the most likable sons that people enjoy having in their homes. People have told me all these things. You are truly blessed.
This winter when it get slow I intend to do some of these free trials. Can't hurt to try when it's free. And free is good.
BjR
Thanks for posting.
Rich
BjR
I was wondering if the system updates your material prices.
If you are subcontracting out alot maybe others are figuring materials.
Rich
I was wondering if the system updates your material prices. I haven't seen that feature. But then again I wasn't looking for it either. I generally look up the prices at a website for a local lumber yard for materials and plug in to to each estimate. That takes a lot of time and it would be a gret feature if there was some sort of data bank. If I could figure out how to post a sheet off one of my estimates I would but that is either apparently beyond my technical capabilities and or it is not a feature of the program I've found yet. I can email estimates but I can't copy to another format.
If you are subcontracting out alot maybe others are figuring materials. They are and they add their mark up and then I add my mark up on to that.
BjR
BjR
I was wondering if the system updates your material prices. I haven't seen that feature. But then again I wasn't looking for it either. I generally look up the prices at a website for a local lumber yard for materials and plug in to to each estimate. That takes a lot of time and it would be a gret feature if there was some sort of data bank.
That is why I started doing spreadsheets in the 1st place, so I wouldn't have to look up prices all the time. I know prices change, but you would be surprised at how little some prices change.
You mentioned earlier that you have been burned by people just just shopping around. Another reason I started doing estimate templates was so that I could kick out quick estimate and I would call it a preliminary estimate. If you are still interested then we will refine our product choices and I will examine my labor costs more closely and we can come up with a job proposal.
If I could figure out how to post a sheet off one of my estimates I would but that is either apparently beyond my technical capabilities and or it is not a feature of the program I've found yet. I can email estimates but I can't copy to another format.
The way I post Excel sheets is to click on attach files (see below), then I hit browse and choices come up from my computer like my documents, I go to my construction file and select the Excel or Word file that I want and press upload, and there it is.
I would love to see your estimating spreadsheets. Because I think I can learn alot from you guys, and I am just a novice a spreadsheets.
Rich
I have a very high respect for Jerrald too and wish I had his discipline regarding price and business. I don't. Frankly, I can't get into the process in any more detail than most shoebox businessmen. It probablys stems from the fact that I operated in a wholesale framing market that dictated the prices. No one really cared if I thought a house should be framed for 25,000. They were going to pay 20,000 becuase they had ten framing crews that would do it for that amount. My pricing method typically involved bidding it higher than I knew they would pay, then negotiate down to the bottom line. I'm in a different driver's seat now but the market still drives the ship. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"My pricing method typically involved bidding it higher than I knew they would pay, then negotiate down to the bottom line."Hi Jim,I've recently added this to my bag of tricks as well...in fact take 3
that I posted to cargin is that...keeping as much in my pocket as the market will bear...tweaking the contract but not dropping my actual margins...I actually increased my margins on take 3...by taking out the finishing,glass, risk and responsibility I was able to maybe meet the customer's #.I'm getting better at it...regret the days when I was stupid and left money on the table...but I didn't go to business school.
Learned it the hard way...that's one of the reasons I appreciate the folks(yourself included) at BT so much...the learning curve is faster and more enjoyable. What helps my company in the present poker game is that I know they want me to do the job...this customer also gets the PITA upcharge."I'm in a different driver's seat now but the market still drives the ship." It was Sonny that helped change my personal mindset about the market...as he likes to say...in any market, folks are still buying
BMW's and caddies...that left a lasting impression on me and I try
to present my company as a high end finishing service...it helps sometimes and I think it puts my company in a different "market". silver
I love Sonny and his philosophies. I wish he was still posting here but he took too much grief I think. Quite often the attacks get personal for no apparent reason other than to satisfy someone's emotional immaturity. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
hey....... i wish you wouldn't bring up my emotional insecurity so much....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I enjoy Sonny as well...I still run into him once in a while."Quite often the attacks get personal for no apparent reason other than to satisfy someone's emotional immaturity" kept me gun shy for a while but I got over it.
cargin - "In the other post about the finsih carpenter I am probably going to get hammered by Jerrald Hayes for not being a good business man. I think he is pretty sophisticated and my spreadsheets are pretty simple. That's ok that's how I learn and how I will get out of my current practices. I have been to his website and it's way over my head."
Ahh Rich, I'm really not a bad guy, while I say what I think and don't soften the blows just to earn someone's online friendship there are no hard feelings attached to any of the business criticism (or praise) I hand out online. What's I see that's really good here right now is a bunch of folks getting together and exchanging their ideas in order to improve their business processes. However when something I write or say needs explaining or clarification you should always feel free to ask. I do need to work on better clarifying what I write. It's an on going process but if I don't know what needs clarification or simplification I wont know what to work on so do feel free to ask. I'm actually setting up forums on the site for the new year to facilitate that and I'll let you know when that happens.
Don't however give me too much credit though I've been a dummy in the past and it still pops up again from time to time like a case of athlete's foot that just wont go away. And I also sure I've got stories from the past that you would say 'how could that guy be so stupid' if I was to tell you about them now. I've been there, done that.
Now getting into the topic here which you guys are talking about: How do you speed up estimating here are some of my thoughts. I'm a little bit rusty with my Excel since I spend most of my time working in FileMaker and learning Apple's new spreadsheet program called Numbers but I'm sure it will come back to me pretty quickly.
The first thing I'm looking at that I think will help you guys is why don't you put the client information you want to keep track of on it's own sheet in the workbook so it doesn't clutter up the page with the estimate numbers. Then make the second sheet in the workbook the relevant project information that you'll to look up as you make up your line items in the estimate. For example:
Gross square footage of living space
SF or roof surface
SF of oak floor
SF of main carpet
SF of secondary carpet
SF of tile area
Count of DH windows
LF of built up base
Count of Balusters
etc etc. stuff like that. You may reference some of those number 3 or 4 times for different tasks. In other word if all the windows are the same size the number of windows you will have to install also gives you the linear feet of extension jambs, stool, and of trim you need to order and install too. If you do the same jobs over and over again like lets say maybe you can make that a standardize list of quantities of typical components or if you project vary from job to job you make the list custom specific to the job at hand. But at any rate with any job there are always certain number you'll many times in building up your Unit Cost Line items.
Then make your third sheet the place where you actually start to build and compile your Unit Cost line items.
Then thinking a little further about organization since each estimate you create is specific to particular job while your labor costs, labor task times, and material costs are often shared by lot of different estimates why don't you make an estimate template that becomes specific to a particular client project but it then looks up material costs from you list of material costs that you keep in it own dedicated workbook. The same thing with your labor costs and your task times.
Is that making sense to you guys? What do ya think?
View Image
Thanks Jerrald.Much of what you post is way over my abilities but this suggestion for setting up a spreadsheet makes sense. I just learned how to use them last winter and struggle with organization...even the simple stuff that you just posted. I get overwhelmed when I try to fill in the client names.What do you expect from a carpenter eh? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim_Allen - "I just learned how to use them last winter and struggle with organization...even the simple stuff that you just posted. I get overwhelmed when I try to fill in the client names."
Just last winter huh, well to tell you the truth I not that surprised. As I work with other contractors I'm always amazed at just how many 'legal pad estimators' there are still out there.
I do however think a lot of the struggle we have in learning technology is just cob webs in our own thinking. Years ago I used to think that I would never be able to understand computer technology. Seriously that's true . I was an 'art' guy, a creative type. When I first for the business I am today I did so with a partner. He was going to be the business and computer technology guy and I was going to handle all the production. Well we didn't last six months together and it was a real real ugly breakup and as he walked out one of his passing remarks to me was something to the effect that "I know one thing for certain, you'll never understand computer technology" and that just pissed me off. It was that coupled with a skiing accident that screwed up my shoulder real good that inspired me to learn about computers once and for all. Unable to use my right arm with any kind of strength for month I would pick up my right hand and place it on the desk next to the keyboard and mouse and I started to learn this thing.
There a saying from one of my favorite books that sort of has a zen feel to it that I really like that goes: "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours". As soon as you get past the thinking I'll never learn this it can all start to come together.
Getting sort of off the topic of the spreadsheet per se and focusing on the real on topic here of How do you speed up estimating I'm wondering if you'll all agree with what I'm about to say.
There's this thing known as Pareto's Rule that basically says in any distribution 80% of the effects comes from 20% of the causes. in other words 80% of a contractors revenues comes from 20% of the things they do. Again in other words there are certain tasks and processes that a contractor does over and over again more than anything else and they generate 80% of his or her revenues. Let's say a contractor feels there are 100 services or tasks he or she can provide (sell) in a market. 20 of them they'll be doing 80% of the time. Then the key in my mind to speeding up estimating is to set up rock solid accurate Unit Cost information for those tasks so that you don't have to spend any time reseaching the cost of a 2 x 12 rafter or spend any time thinking about how much time (labor hours) it is going to take to place that 2 x 12 as a rafter. Make sense? That way the only thing that slows or bog down the estimating process is having to research and think about that stuff you rarely do when it does actually finally come up.
View Image
Actually, my estimating problems were created because I never really estimated anything. I knew what the market would bear and I always just tried to push the envelope. One of our methods of estimating was lumber piles. An old partner and I were sitting around one day and figured out that we typically were getting 6k per lumber drop LOL! The numbers were working fine for us and they seemed to be consistent. Working the wholesale market does remove the need for estimating. We'd simply build one house and if we liked the numbers, we'd continue on building. If not, we'd move on. To be honest, we never even scratched a number on a piece of paper. It's just grocery money anyways. I could figure out technically what I need in MI and find out that I would have to bid twice as high as they would pay....so what have I gained really? We knew we had to leave....It's a different story here...I just don't think I'm the right guy for that job. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jerrald
Then the key in my mind to speeding up estimating is to set up rock solid accurate Unit Cost information for those tasks so that you don't have to spend any time reseaching the cost of a 2 x 12 rafter or spend any time thinking about how much time (labor hours) it is going to take to place that 2 x 12 as a rafter.
I am trying to figure out how get that into our system. It's not like new construction with framing and finish work where for example you know on the last house it took you x number of hours to hang 10 doors, or x number of hours to lay 32 pieces of roof sheathing.
I am starting to argue my limitations. Gotta stop that.
I am just going to have to start having the boys and myself tracking what we do each day and then design a spreadsheet that make sense of the data.
Some days it feels like I spend 20% of my time setting up and cleaning up. LOL
Rich
Hi Cargin, your “How to Speed Up Estimating†thread caught my attention when it was first started. Unfortunately, I didn’t have the time to keep up with it back then. However, I’ve just recently read all 190 posts on this thread as well as the 18 post on the “Finnish Carpentry Estimating†thread. Few!<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
As always, I’ve especially enjoyed the comments of Mike Smith, Idaho Don, Jim Allen, and Jerrald Hayes. I’ve found Mike Smith’s posts strike particularly helpful in this thread. I’m also glad that Jerrald mentioned recording unit labor costs. Thanks for showing us your speadsheets Cargin.
<!----> <!---->
You seem to be searching for ways to create your own personal company cost book. I’m definitely no Mike Smith or Jerrald Hayes (in fact, some of the other breaktimers may very well attack me for posting about estimating), but I’ve listed the best strategy I could think up so far below. (Oh well, this thread has been peaceful for 190 posts, hopefully it’ll stay that way.) However, until some of the technology out there becomes more readily available, this method may have very little to do with computers.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Here’s my three-step-strategy for creating your own cost book:<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Step 1: Make a Blueprint<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
For contractors who charge a design fee, this is something they do anyway. Even if you don’t charge a design fee, a print will come in handy for you over and over and over again during the job. Besides, as the old saying goes, failing to plan is preparing to fail.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
First, you will need to make a form that will aid you in making a print the first time you walk on the job site for the estimate. (Form #1: Job Survey) I suggest a fill-in-the-blank format combined with a graph for sketching. As you measure the length and height of each wall, record the measurements on the form. Now make a quick sketch of the layout on the form. You may also want to snap a few pictures to jog your memory later.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Once you’ve either assured yourself a design fee, or assured yourself the job, set this information in front of you and draw a simple diagram of the existing structure. Then draw a diagram of how the place will look after the remodel. For this part, computer design software could be helpful if you know how to utilize it.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Step #2: Organize a Three-Ring-Binder<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Make copies of both the old and new floor plans for each phase of work, and organize them in a three-ring-binder. I suggest one of those binders that zip closed to keep out the dust. Once you arrive at the job, you can first use the old floor plan prints for tracking your demolition. Then when you start building, use the new floor plan prints for tracking your progress toward completion.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
For example, say you’re removing the drywall. Use a copy of the old floor plan labeled “Drywall Demolition.†Because you would deal with sf in drywall, you should have the sf of each wall listed beside it. When you’re finished demolishing drywall for that day, highlight each wall you knocked out. Finally, record how much time was used. Do the same thing for hanging the new drywall, except use a copy of the new floor plan labeled “Drywall Hanging.†You may also want to consider using different color highlighters for each progressive day. That way it’ll be clear what got done when.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
These highlighted blueprints will not only prove beneficial in creating your cost book. They could very well prove invaluable when you estimate similar floor plans in the future.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Step #3: Design a Unit Cost Time Card<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The idea of a time card is great, it lets you keep track of the time you spend performing each task on a job. However, the design of most time cards is quite awful because they don’t allow you to keep track of the units per hour.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Just as I suggested combining the measurements of a job and a sketch of it into one form, I also suggest combining the time spent on a job with the units (lf, sf, cy, etc . . .) installed. (Form #2: Unit Cost Time Card) For example, first record the time you spent hanging drywall that day. Then record how many sf you hung (found on your highlighted blueprint) during that time. It would also be a good idea to create a space on the card/sheet to note job site conditions as well. All of this will take careful thought to fit on one page, but it can be done. At least far as designing the time card, a computer can make the job much easier.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Finally, don’t be stingy! So many bosses complain about their employees keeping inadequate records. Well, you get what you pay for, and that includes EVERYONE required to fill out a time card. Employees have no problem filling out time cards – on company time. Allow at least 5, maybe even near 10 minutes a day (for each employee) for filling out detailed time cards. Whoever highlights the binder will probably need more like 15 minutes. And then don’t forget to plug this time into you estimates! Yes, this is going to cost the company some money, but I think it will make the company far more money in the long run.<!----><!---->-T
Journeyman
Good post. Yes things have stayed friendly. I have even made some good friends. Best way to get rid of good ideas is to get nasty. Don't want to go there.
There is alot to comment on in your post. We have Tim home from the Village for 4 days so I have to get him ready for church this morning.
I will reply at length later after I have let the ideas cook for a while, and after I get over arguing my limitations.
Rich
Journeyman
Hi Cargin, your “How to Speed Up Estimating†thread caught my attention when it was first started. Unfortunately, I didn’t have the time to keep up with it back then. However, I’ve just recently read all 190 posts on this thread as well as the 18 post on the “Finnish Carpentry Estimating†thread. Few! What I posted on that thread had very little to do with finish carpentry. I just thought that a spreadsheet design with the materials on the left and a labor task on the right would help the guy organize his thoughts. Rich<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
As always, I’ve especially enjoyed the comments of Mike Smith, Idaho Don, Jim Allen, and Jerrald Hayes. I’ve found Mike Smith’s posts strike particularly helpful in this thread. I’m also glad that Jerrald mentioned recording unit labor costs. Thanks for showing us your speadsheets Cargin. I have enjoyed their post too even when it hurts. Rich
<!----> <!---->
You seem to be searching for ways to create your own personal company cost book. Yes I am. I think that's what the good contractors do, they get a handle on what it takes your company to hang 100 sf of drywall for example. I’m definitely no Mike Smith or Jerrald Hayes (in fact, some of the other breaktimers may very well attack me for posting about estimating), but I’ve listed the best strategy I could think up so far below. (Oh well, this thread has been peaceful for 190 posts, hopefully it’ll stay that way.) However, until some of the technology out there becomes more readily available, this method may have very little to do with computers.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Here’s my three-step-strategy for creating your own cost book:<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Step 1: Make a Blueprint<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
For contractors who charge a design fee, this is something they do anyway. Even if you don’t charge a design fee, a print will come in handy for you over and over and over again during the job. Good idea. I do that often so that I visualize the project but not everytime. Rich Besides, as the old saying goes, failing to plan is preparing to fail.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
First, you will need to make a form that will aid you in making a print the first time you walk on the job site for the estimate. (Form #1: Job Survey) I suggest a fill-in-the-blank format combined with a graph for sketching. As you measure the length and height of each wall, record the measurements on the form. Now make a quick sketch of the layout on the form. You may also want to snap a few pictures to jog your memory later. I have been thinking along those lines but I haven't taken the action the steps to design the form #1. When I did weatherization for the state we had a form similar to that. But that was a specialized field of work. If I could only get my digital camera back from my daughter. I think I am going to have to go to Walmart and buy a cheap one. Rich<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Once you’ve either assured yourself a design fee, or assured yourself the job, set this information in front of you and draw a simple diagram of the existing structure. Then draw a diagram of how the place will look after the remodel. For this part, computer design software could be helpful if you know how to utilize it. I live in the land of free estimates. AML (Arging My Limitations) I have the HO version of Chief Architect and one of my goals for this winter is to learn to use it better. I know it's just a toy compared to Chief A but it was only $89.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Step #2: Organize a Three-Ring-Binder<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Make copies of both the old and new floor plans for each phase of work, and organize them in a three-ring-binder. I suggest one of those binders that zip closed to keep out the dust. Once you arrive at the job, you can first use the old floor plan prints for tracking your demolition. Then when you start building, use the new floor plan prints for tracking your progress toward completion.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
For example, say you’re removing the drywall. Use a copy of the old floor plan labeled “Drywall Demolition.†Because you would deal with sf in drywall, you should have the sf of each wall listed beside it. Good idea. When you’re finished demolishing drywall for that day, highlight each wall you knocked out. Finally, record how much time was used. Do the same thing for hanging the new drywall, except use a copy of the new floor plan labeled “Drywall Hanging.†You may also want to consider using different color highlighters for each progressive day. How organized do think I am for pete's sake. That way it’ll be clear what got done when.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
These highlighted blueprints will not only prove beneficial in creating your cost book. They could very well prove invaluable when you estimate similar floor plans in the future. You are right there. Rich<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Step #3: Design a Unit Cost Time Card<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The idea of a time card is great, it lets you keep track of the time you spend performing each task on a job. However, the design of most time cards is quite awful because they don’t allow you to keep track of the units per hour. In time card that I have seen online there is no accounting of the quanity of work just the type. You're right there. Maybe the owner fills in the blanks while entering the data from his knowledge of the job. Rich<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Just as I suggested combining the measurements of a job and a sketch of it into one form, I also suggest combining the time spent on a job with the units (lf, sf, cy, etc . . .) installed. (Form #2: Unit Cost Time Card) For example, first record the time you spent hanging drywall that day. Then record how many sf you hung (found on your highlighted blueprint) during that time. It would also be a good idea to create a space on the card/sheet to note job site conditions as well. You hit on a big variable there. All of this will take careful thought to fit on one page, but it can be done. At least far as designing the time card, a computer can make the job much easier.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Finally, don’t be stingy! So many bosses complain about their employees keeping inadequate records. Well, you get what you pay for, and that includes EVERYONE required to fill out a time card. Employees have no problem filling out time cards – on company time. Allow at least 5, maybe even near 10 minutes a day (for each employee) for filling out detailed time cards. Whoever highlights the binder will probably need more like 15 minutes. And then don’t forget to plug this time into you estimates! Yes, this is going to cost the company some money, but I think it will make the company far more money in the long run. I the one always pushing the envelope at the end of the day to get one more thing done. I will be the one it is hardest to convince to record my hours and tasks. I want to post more and I will but right now I am going to go watch the Bears and the Packers with Tim. Go Bears.
Rich
To All
Merry Christmas.
I have enjoyed this thread and I appreciate all of you who have contributed to my education.
I hope others have learned as much as I have.
I thought long and hard before I put my spreadsheets out there for review and correction. Because I knew my methodogy, my markup, my labor rate and how I run my business would be subject to review and comment.
Thank you all for being nice.
Do me a favor and let me know if you have been helped by this thread.
Rich
I'm glad you started the thread. I've learned a lot from it.Hope you and your family have a great Christmas!
Craig
Good to hear from you again.
Rich
Do me a favor and let me know if you have been helped by this thread.
Yes and no.
Yes I enjoy reading and thinking about what is thrown out here on the forum.
No because my computer that has Excell on it has a trashed modem and i can't open the spreadsheets on this one. But keep on going, it'll get fixed eventually and this discussion will get re-read.
Oh, and if Mr. Hayes was once a non-computer guy, at least there is light at the end of the tunnel for us knuckle-dragger types.
I noticed you mentioned switching from MS Works to Excell. I used to do stuff in MS works, but I think I have found that my brain functions better with the visual of pad and paper in front of me. How my brain works best is an on-going challenge. There was an article in JLC a few years back by RA Stacy about his quick estimates on a yellow pad. (My JLC CD is from 2001 so it must be after that)
My actual times worked get entered in a basic spreadsheet and tracked. Then that info gets put into a 3-ring binder under various categories. (18 different categories) The front of each category has a tab with notes about mistakes I have made, and things I have forgotten on other projects. My actual times are taken off of daily time logs I modified from a template in MS works. I physically modified it, and make a couple hundred copies at Kinkos. Every day has a time log, a to-do list, and a mileage log. I carry it on top of an aluminum clipboard and take notes throughout the day. All these time logs get put in a 3-ring binder for each year.
I don't make any claims about my "system", but it keeps me better organized than I had been before.
One point that helped me when I first started doing estimates on a spreadsheet was to put the cell with the "Total" in a place that was off the screen, so i wouldn't see it adding up and think "Man it can't be that much!!!!" and then start trying to find ways to lower the cost. (Read that as "screwing myself")
Bowz
Bowz
There was an article in JLC a few years back by RA Stacy about his quick estimates on a yellow pad. (My JLC CD is from 2001 so it must be after that)
I am glad you mentioned that article. He is the guy that started me thinking that I could do estimates differently. Stacy got hammered in the following issue from the big remodeling company types for his system being too simplistic, and I never saw another article by him. RA Stacy if you are out there I owe you a debt of graditude.
So I started keeping material quotes from the lumber yard and then I started building worksheets in Works with materials costs from the past, and a task summary in the labor column. Example Footings, foundation, plates, joists, subfloor.
Then I wasn't reinventing the wheel ( or writing out a job task summary) every time I did an estimate. I find the computer works best for me. I can't keep paper documents organized.
I save all my estimate worksheets in a file called Cargin Const Storage and only the active jobs are in Cargin Const. I do what I call Bill Summary after each job. It's how I figure the bill, with a comparison of actual costs to my estimate/bid. I save all those for reference. I would post one but it is in Excel. I have tried posting Works document before and it doen't work.
Rich
Bowz
Every day has a time log, a to-do list, and a mileage log. I carry it on top of an aluminum clipboard and take notes throughout the day. All these time logs get put in a 3-ring binder for each year.
You're more organized and disiplined than me.
One point that helped me when I first started doing estimates on a spreadsheet was to put the cell with the "Total" in a place that was off the screen, so i wouldn't see it adding up and think "Man it can't be that much!!!!" and then start trying to find ways to lower the cost. (Read that as "screwing myself")
I hear ya. I don't look at the Total until the end of the estimate. I am working on a worksheet that will do an estimate from a purchased cost book on a second sheet, but I don't want to see it until I have come up with my own number 1st.
I am making no claims on how well it works yet. Just trying something new.
Rich
You're more organized and disiplined than me.
Maybe, maybe not. My first try at tracking my time was derived from some book on goals by Alec McKenzie. I was trying to figure out where the heck all my time was disapearing to. When I got my first computer in '98 I found the MS works template and used it.
I figure I recovered the cost of the computer in about 5 months by catching time wasters and unbilled time that slipped through the cracks in my day.
Yeah, I recall that being RA Stacy's last article also. I liked his articles because he was a small operation. I think my favorite JLC business author though is Paul Eldrenkamp. I'd like to shake his hand someday.
Bowz
PS: One more thing I did because of the thread was buy my own copy of Alice Coopers greatest hits so I have my own copy of "No More Mr Nice Guy". LOL !!!! Really.
I hope this time card can be of some help to either you or somebody.<!----><!----><!---->-T
Journeyman
Thanks, I'll see if I can use it.
Rich
Journeyman
I wish our jobs were as simple as making a plan and recording SF of drywall. To give you guys an idea of what we do I have reviewed the last couple of months, from most recent backwards.
Installed steel entry door and storm (Bid)
Chopped Ice dam from 2/12 dormer wearing ice cleats, she will want an estimate to replace the 4 sq roof and repair 4' x 12' of plaster T&M
Widened 2 door ways for wheelchair access in old farm house 1 wall 7 1/2" the other 4 1/4", moved wiring, middle of the house with the Christmas tree and do dads all over the place, 20 mile drive (Bid)
Install vinyl insests in rotten jambs in rental unit (not mine) and wrap the exterior, install door blank and thresold, with reluctant tenant, a pit bull and very icy conditions (T&M)
Remove and replace 20 Sq vinyl siding and fascia cover (hail damage), will do roof in the spring, did work just after ice storm, very icy footing 17 mile drive (Bid)
Replaced Leaking Sliding door and replaced rotten subfloor, we stained and varnished . We tore it out 1st and then recommended new door, reintalled old door and waited for new door( Estimate)
Repaired damaged shingles, fascia and skirting on mobile home in insulated coveralls. (T&M) got a $50 tip on this one
Installed drop down attic stairs in finished house in the hallway in a snow storm. Attic insulated with fiberglass & Cellulose (T&M)
Installed Walk-in garage door and built bench and shelving in garage (Estimate)
Repaired rotten fascia on the bottom corner of a ranch behind the gutter, 2' of rotten sub fascia (T&M)
Gut and rebuilt 5' x 12' bathroom, over a small crawl space, tiled floor and installed dishwasher in built in cabinets, we did everything. Verbal estimate for a good old boy. They are very pleased. Did a plan on this one.
Tore up and replaced 1/2" particle board underlayment (3 rooms) with water damage, removed kitchen cabinets and sink and reinstalled (Sort of Bid insurance work)
Egress window, client did the digging (5' well). Verbal estimate
Shingled 1/2 of a modular house roof, we removed and replaced the gable in order to replace rotten OSB under the valleys (10 pc) (Bid)
Replaced rotten redwood decking (1/3 of the deck boards) on deck I built 19 years ago (working on this deck when Tim was born, and again when we were considering Tim going to the Village) Estimate
Extended 2nd story deck 7'x 20', composite, installed Simpson plates under 1 year old 4x4s. Verbal estimate
Traced leak and replaced about 4 sq of shingles with poorly done tin shingle flashing (T&M)
Sheetrock, taping, painting, suspended ceiling, reinstalled the stalls and solid surface sinks for city library bathroom (1 at a time 6 month apart, spring and fall worst possible timing) (Bid)
Replaced flat roof with stick down roofing, replaced 10 pc of sheathing, she didn't like the bid for the whole roof but asked us to do the flat section. T&M
Shingled 3 1/2 SQ (3 of us)(one roof section), replaced 5 pieces of plywood, they didn't have the money to do the whole thing which I bid. Took all day one break in the morning (T&M)
Shingled whole house 3 of us (same guys as above) with HO help, 32 SQ and rebuilt boxed out chimney. Tore off and shingled 16 sq in one day (even tore apart the soffit on both sides in order to shingle and then rebuilt) and we took generous breaks (Bid)
That takes you back to about beginning of Oct.
That's why this unit cost stuff is going to be difficult to implement. I already have a good idea on roof labor and sheathing repairs are excluded from the bid.
Arguing my Limitations again.
Rich
I wish our jobs were as simple as making a plan and recording SF of drywall.<!----><!----><!---->
In my mind, they’re all that simple. Let me explain what I mean.<!----><!---->
Installed steel entry door and storm (Bid)<!----><!---->
A job this small is even simpler, because you don’t need a print. In fact, this job is so small that there’s not even any math involved. Simply write down the amount of time it took you to install the steel entry door on your time card. Then write down how long it took you to install the storm door. For example, if the steel entry door took you 15 minutes to install, then record “1†unit (in this case, not square feet, but the door itself) at “.25†hours under “Exterior Doors.†That comes to 1 exterior door every 15 minutes.<!----><!---->
Chopped Ice dam from 2/12 dormer wearing ice cleats . . .<!----><!---->
That goes under “Demolition†on your time card. Specify “Ice.†Record the pitch of the roof. Then record how long it took you.<!----><!---->
she will want an estimate to replace the 4 sq roof<!----><!---->
Although you won’t need it for THIS estimate, if the job was somewhat bigger I might make a print to keep track of the units (in this case, not square feet, but square) for your cost book. I’d suggest an elevation of each side of the roof, with doted lines dividing up each square so you could color them in with your highlighter. I'd make one for “Demolition,†one for “Felt Paper,†and one for “Shingles.†Specify these divisions on your time card as well, just as you would for “Drywall Hanging†or “Drywall Skim Coat.†If you shingle the whole 4sq by yourself in 1 hour and 20 minutes (1.33 on your time card), then you know you can shingle 3 square an hour.<!----><!---->
and repair 4' x 12' of plaster T&M<!----><!---->
While it’s good to know which jobs were time and materials and which ones weren’t, it doesn’t change the estimated time for a project. 1 hour on a time and materials job should get you just as much done in 1 hour on a job with a fixed bid price. Since you’re being paid time, you don’t have to estimate labor for this job. However, there’s no reason you can’t record your time on this job and use the record to calculate a fixed bid on another job. While it’s up to you as to what kind of units you use, I’d suggest measuring plaster in square feet, just like drywall.<!----><!---->
Widened 2 door ways for wheelchair access in old farm house 1 wall 7 1/2" the other 4 1/4" . . .<!----><!---->
That goes under “Demolition.†Specify “Doors.†Record the size of the openings before demolition on your time card as well. Your contract will tell you the size of the doors that you were demolishing for. You’ll know which contract to look at because you record the name of the project on your time card. Hopefully, though, you’ll enter this data into a spreadsheet each week. If you finished demolition in 2 hours, then you know you can estimate demolition for say, two 36†openings to accept wheelchair access, at 1 hour each.<!----><!---->
moved wiring . . .<!----><!---->
That goes under demolition. Specify “Wiring.â€<!----><!---->
middle of the house with the Christmas tree and do dads all over the place . . .<!----><!---->
Make a note of that.<!----><!---->
20 mile drive (Bid)<!----><!---->
If the drive was on company time, that goes under “Travel Time.â€<!----><!---->
Prints are only needed for estimating purposes if there are large amounts of the same kind of units to keep track of. I could go on, but hopefully you get the idea.<!----><!---->
-T
Edited 12/24/2007 10:51 pm ET by JourneymanCarpenterT
You've made it too simple. Not all ice dams are created equal. The ice could be 10" thick and come off in huge soft easy to break chunks or be 1" and frozen tight and need to be chipped off 3" at a time. A door could take 15 minutes or 8 hrs as a recent thread proved. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
If somethng takes longer that it ussually should, make a note as to why.-T
Jim
The day in question, I had planned to install the door with one helper. Usually takes 1 day. Tear out the old door, rebuild the sill, intall door, locks, trim and then the storm. House had vinyl siding and the door was prefinished with a clad jamb. The clad jamb makes it harder to install the storm door.
But the storm was a simple Larson. Usually 1 hr - 1.5 hrs. The higher priced storm doors with the hidden hinge and the plastic covers for the screws and the fancy locks usually take about 3 hours.
We got an emergency call to install rubber base before Christmas. So I started the door alone. At 10 am one of the boys came to help me. At 11 am a old lady called and talked to my son and sweet talked him into us looking at the ice dam before noon. It was raining water in the house 3' in from the outside wall, on to a nice hardwood floor, and she was leaving town at 1pm for Christmas with the kids.
The boys went up there at 1pm with plastic and a garbage can to funnel the water into. They thought the ice dam was impregnable. I said shovel the snow and hit the ice with a hammer. In 2 hours they were done and the leak stopped.
I finished the door by myself except I will go back tomorrow to trim out the inside. But if the vinyl siding hadn't matched the brickmold like a glove that would have been a different story. If it had been a couple of degrees colder the ice dam probalby won't have broken up.
There are so many variables to each job, but still I am going to quit arguing my limitations and try to track my time develop some kind of speadsheet that hopefully will show me some trends. And try to over come my estimating optimism (alternately known as I need this job.)
I am not going to create a category for ice dams though.
Rich
Tear out the old door, rebuild the sill, install door, locks, trim and then the storm.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Yes, that is more complicated. Now I get it. When you said “installed steel entry door and storm,†the only part I got was “install door,†and “the storm.†I thought you meant you were simply swapping out a similar pair of doors for another.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
First, NOTE: Knowing that this usually takes one day is good enough for many builders. They might have an employee who does it that writes down nothing except the name of the project and 8 hours under “Exterior Doors.†The employee turns in his time card, and the contractor figures out how much money per hour he made on the job by comparing it with his estimate. The contractor already knows how many LF of interior casing, how many LF of exterior casing, how many locksets, how many doors, how many repairs, and how much demolition he estimated for. If he wants to bid on a job like this again, he knows how many hours to charge for.<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
HOWEVER, I see three drawbacks of doing it this way:<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
1. Your cost book will never be very thorough. If your job costing is that generalized, then you can only be certain of estimates for very similar jobs. What, though, if somebody only wants a lockset replaced tomorrow? Will you estimate too high, or will you estimate too low?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
2. You won’t know how much different conditions might vary your estimate. If the job lasts much longer that one day, how will you know which units (such as lineal feet on a trim job) went up where faster or slower than others? For example, the time for units applied to 8’ walls as opposed to units applied to 10’ walls with 10 times more corners. How will you know which units (such as square feet on a roofing job) were effected by weather as opposed to others?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
3. You create more paper work for yourself. If you don’t include a record of units in addition to time on your time card, you will have to compare your time cards to your estimated times, and then figure it all out mathematically. You will probably also end up doing a lot of your labor cost records for your cost book from memory. Doing the paperwork twice is pointless, especially for such a small company, because you know what information you need for your cost book, and you are the one filling out most of the time cards anyway. Why not simply enter the information from your time card straight to your cost book spreadsheet?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Tear out the old door . . .<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
That would go under “Demolition†in my cost book. I’d create a sub category “Doors,†and then “Exterior.â€<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
On my time card, I’d note this under “Demolition,†and specify the demolition as “Exterior Doors.â€<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I try not to get more particular than that with demolition.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
rebuild the sill . . .<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Are you referring to the sill plate, or are you referring to the threshold. If “sill†is another term for threshold, than it would go under “Doors,†and then “Exterior,†in my cost book. (Sill plate would go under “Framing.â€) I’d create the sub category “Threshold,†or “Sill,†and then “Repair.â€<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
On my time card I’d note this under “Exterior Doors,†and specify “Threshold Repair.â€<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
install door . . .<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
It’s quite possible that you could get this part done in .25 hrs.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
In my cost book I’d of course place it under “Doors,†and then “Exterior.†Under that would be “Set,†and then “Metal.â€<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
On my time card I’d also place it under “Exterior Doors,†and then I’d specify “Set Metal.â€<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
locks . . .<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
That one would also go under “Doors,†and then “Exterior,†in my cost book. I’d make the sub category “Locks,†and then different kinds of locks under that.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
On my time card I’d first specify whatever kind of lock it would be, and then “Locks.â€<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
trim . . .<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Up to this point, many builders might’ve simply recorded all the time under “Exterior Doors,†and not specify a thing. However, unless the trim came already attached to the door, it usually goes under “Trim.â€<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
In my cost book I’d record the exterior casing under “Trim,†and then “Exterior,†and then “Casing,†and then “Door.â€<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
On my time card I’d record this under a category I’d create on site called “Exterior Casing,†and then specify “Door.â€<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I’d make a separate category for “Interior Casing.†Simply replace every word above that says “Exterior†with “Interior†to see what I mean.<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Oh yeah, did I forget to tell you?<!----><!---->
THE OTHER THING I HATE ABOUT MOST TIME CARDS IS THAT THEY USE A MULTIPLE CHOICE FORMAT, AND THERE ARE NEVER ENOUGH CHOICES.<!----><!---->
That’s why I prefer fill-in-the-blank. How though can you remember so many different categories on site? Well, it’s made a whole lot easier with a one page list to choose from. In fact, if you’re industrious enough to take your computer formatted time card to be printed at the printers (which I’m guessing in a large quantity may end up being even cheaper than computer printouts or photocopies), you can include this list on the back page of your time cards.<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
House had vinyl siding and the door was prefinished with a clad jamb. The clad jamb makes it harder to install the storm door.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I’d also make a note of that on my time card.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
and then the storm.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
In my cost book, this would go under “Doors,†then “Exterior,†then “Storm.â€<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
On my time card I’d write this down under “Exterior Doors,†and then specify storm.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
a simple Larson.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I’d make note of that on my time card as well.<!----><!---->-T
T, maybe you mentioned earler, but what medium are you using to record your historical data?I've mentioned before that I use Goldenseal, and it has really helped me to be more disciplined with my history and unit pricing. I just wish I would have started sooner, rather than thinking that each job was too different to bother. I'd have a lot of data by now!I'm really enjoying the discussion. T.N.
I prefer Microsoft Excel at present because it was recommended by Bob Kovacs. However, I am open to other options, and I'd be interested in knowing about any advantages Goldenseal would have over Excel.-T
True North
How detailed is your unit cost accounting? For instance in the door replacement being discussed would you record 17 LF of casing, 32" sill replacement, lock installed and the times it took to do each task.
Or would you just record 1 replacement door with lock and sill replacement 8 hours and 2 hours to install storm door.
Then how is that information transfered into your estimates? When you have say 100 SF of exterior wall to frame do you go back to your historical costs and look it up? Or is it automically transfered some how? Or do you work off a template for wall framing that has the average time for 2x4 wall framing inserted by you from looking up your historical labor hours, that you adjust from time to time.
Do you work in hr/unit or $/unit?
Thanks
Rich
"There are so many variables to each job, but still I am going to quit arguing my limitations and try to track my time develop some kind of speadsheet that hopefully will show me some trends. And try to over come my estimating optimism (alternately known as I need this job.)"I guess that makes as much sense as anything. Once you know your range of times that a particular job will take, you will still be faced with a decision. Will you bid the job at the high number or the low number or in the middle? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim
Once you know your range of times that a particular job will take, you will still be faced with a decision. Will you bid the job at the high number or the low number or in the middle?
Depends if I have work or not. Right now I would be happy to get any job. In the spring when I am spitting out estimates then go with the highest number.
With the door widening job for handicap access. I bid the job with the Labor marked up 10% more than what I thought it would take to do the job. That was a good thing. Our actual labor cost was just $100 under the bid. I marked up materials 15% on that job.
We had one of those Last 1/2 Day that takes all day.
I bid that job in the summer and then didn't get to do the job until Dec. 17. So I hadn't started this thread yet. Since that time I have increased my mat markup to 20% and my labor rate from $35/hr to $40/hr. I am still miles away from where some of you guys are in marking up Labor and Materials 35-50%.
I also need to work in a contingency % on labor. Seems like we run into something on every job. Materials I seem to come out pretty good on, then I would be happy to make 20% above that. Labor is the big bug a bo.
Like I said earlier the same guys did 16 sq tear off and shingles in 1 day and then one week later we did 3.5 sq. . Neither of those are the norm.
It still take schoold hard knocks to see the variables that can throw off your unit cost.
Will you bid the job at the high number or the low number or in the middle? So what do you do when faced with that choice?
Rich
Good question.My business plan is to avoid remodeling altoghther. I've tried to stay away from it since the mid 80's. My hats are off to those that can stay in the business and do it happily and maintain their sanity.The problem I see with remodeling is the need to have that special carpenter that can do so many things. It's not easy to find one guy like that who will work for you and almost impossible to get more. You end up relying on that one special person and that person usually is yourself! All is well, as long as you are well. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim
Will you bid the job at the high number or the low number or in the middle?
Good question.
And you didn't answer it. Do you go high low or the middle?
Remodeling is all I have ever known. No one asks me to bid on new work.
The problem I see with remodeling is the need to have that special carpenter that can do so many things. It's not easy to find one guy like that who will work for you and almost impossible to get more. You end up relying on that one special person and that person usually is yourself!
I am training my boys and they can do many things, but it is a process.
Rich
Edited 12/26/2007 5:21 pm ET by cargin
The reason I didn't answer is because I don't know! That's my problem with studying the numbers in remodeling. I think you mentioned in an earlier post that you were installing a door and that if the molding hadn't fit perfectly, you wouldn't have been able to finish as easily. It's small issues like that that make the estimating process, well...and estimate! Unfortunatly, most people don't want an "estimate", they want a fixed bid proposal.I do not have the skill to accurately do a takeoff on a remodeling project. I don't have the patience to muck around in minutia. If something is so complicated that it takes a detailed worksheet, it's probably safe to say that someone else better be doing it. I am an expert at knowing how long most new work takes and can offer a fairly accurate "estimate". I mentally can work through the build process and create a schedule of where we would be every day on a 3 week project. I make these estimates from my history, which is for the most part unrecorded. I have indulged myself in the minutia of timestudies...some successsful, others far off. It all depends on the job. On one of my first estimates as a young contractor, I had to figure out how to calculate the time it took to install a floor system, interior pars and ceiling system on a block house. I was new to the business and had no other method other than to mentally think out every part. I spent hours with my pad and paper and mentally decided how long it would take to do the simplest task, such as carrying in 10 studs on my shoulders....and how many trips I'd have to make. When it was all said and done, I hit the number exactly. It might have been a 12 or 24 hour job..I can't remember. But it doesn't mean anything. The next job might have much different timeframes for each component. So, how do I bid new work? I know what the going prices are and I test the market. I make them negotiate me down to their price wishes. I don't always negotiate but sometimes I do. There are a lot of on the spot factors. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim
Fair enough. Didn't mean to pin you down. You are helped us in the past to stick to our guns and hold to our price. I just wanted to see if you did too.
By the way have you heard from Silver. I think we should sent a dog sled team out to look for him. Maybe he got lost on one of those cross country trails.
I posted to him about 1 week ago and he hasn't read it yet. I know his girls were supposed to come home on Christmas Eve. Probably traveling or busy with family.
Rich
This thread is really helping think through things.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I’m not sure if my time card is clear very clear, so just in case, let me give an example. This is simply a hypothetical workweek, so don’t pay too much attention to the amounts of time spent on each task. I prefer the layout because it allows me to record man hours even under very chaotic circumstances.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
MONDAY<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
It takes my partner and me 20 min (.33) to setup all our tools to begin the remodel at the Smith’s. Then, it takes us another 10 min (.2) to prep the Smith site for the dust of demolition. I’ll know how much time my partner spends on each task because he – as well as anyone ells working for the company – will fill out a time card just like mine.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The first thing I do is demo 112 LF of 4†baseboard. When I’m done, I write it down. Then I demo 1,120 SF of 4’x8’x1/2†drywall off 10’ high walls. I write this down. After breaking for lunch, I demo 56 LF of Romex electrical. I write that down. Finally, I demo 56 LF of 10’ high 2x4 framing, and then write that down.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Now I pick up my tools. It’s company policy to leave the place immaculate, so I spend a ½ hr. (.5) on cleanup. Then I write down how much time I spent on cleanup, setup, and site prep for the day. Because the drywall I demoed was glued and screwed, I make a note of that as well. There were a total of 8 hrs spent on the Smith project, so I write that down in the totals column.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
TUESDAY<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
15 min. (.25) is spent setting up. I spend an hr framing 40 LF of 10’ high 2x6 walls. It’s been raining, and I’m trying to squeeze in the Jones’s roof into my schedule. Because the suns coming out and the weather forecast is good, I start picking up, clean up, and write down my time.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The Jones’s live 15 min (.25) away, so I write down the travel time upon arriving. It takes another 15 min (.25) to set up. Then I spend 4 hrs and 45 min (4.75) tearing off 8 SQ of asphalt roofing on the 4/12 pitch roof. It takes me another 15 min (.25) hrs to pick up, and another ½ hr for cleanup.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
2 hrs were spent on the Smith project, and 6 hrs on the Jones project, so I write the totals down accordingly.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
WEDNESDAY<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The weather forecast was “extremely cold early in the morning, but bright and sunny for the rest of the day.†So after setting up at the Smith project again, I spend 20 min (.33) finishing the remaining 16 LF of wall. It’s warming up, and I need to get the roofing paper on the Jones’s roof. So I pick up, clean up, and head out the door.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
After we arrive at the Jones’s, write down our travel time and setup for roofing, we see clouds are coming in. Contrary to the weather report, it’s starting to drizzle and it doesn’t look good. So we bust a move and paper the 8 SQ in an hr and 20 min (1.33), clean up for 10 min (.2), and head back to the Smith project.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
After spending another 15 min (.25) getting back to the Smith’s, I spend most the rest of the day hanging 1,120 SF of drywall with 4’x12’x1/2†sheets. Because the weather report broke up my day, I make a note of it when I write down my time.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
THURSDAY<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
It’s raining pretty good this morning, and again I spend a couple hrs at the Smith’s. Most of it is spent finishing the drywall with the bed coat and drywall tape. The weather is drying up, so as soon as I’m done I make my way to the Jones’s.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
At the Jones’s it’s already starting to drizzle. I spend 3 and ½ hrs applying architectural shingles. No sooner do we finish 2/3 one side of the roof that it starts to pour. So we pick up and head back over to the Smith’s. There I apply the next coat of finish to the drywall. Since the drywall mud needs to dry, and since the shop is only 5 min (.08) away from the Smith’s, I use the last part of my day organizing the shop for 10 min (.2).<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
FRIDAY<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
It’s finally Friday, but it’s supposed to rain all day, so we spend the whole day at the Smith’s. First I apply the final coat of finish to the drywall. Then I spend 2 hrs installing 112 LF of 6†baseboard, 1 hr and 15 min (1.25) installing 112 LF of 4†chair rail, and 2 and a ½ hrs. (2.5) installing 112 LF of 6†crown moulding.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
At the end of the day we decide to come in on Saturday to finish the Jones project.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
SATURDAY<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Saturday we knock out the 6 remaining SQ on the roof in 3 hrs flat. I find the 65 degree temperature to be just perfect for roofing, so I make a note that this could’ve contributed to our good time.<!----><!---->-T
T,
I think you are getting too detailed in the information you are tracking. Here is my first recollection from using my historical data to do an estimate. (12+ years ago)
I was bidding a basement remodel. For the sheetrock section, I figured the amount of rock, and thought about how long it would take to do it. I figured I was pretty well covered at 40 hrs. But remembering that I had time logs from the previous year, I looked up how long it had taken me to sheetrock a kitchen I had remodeled.
I divided out the square footage and came up with a multiplier per 100sqr ft of rock. Imagine my surprise when it said I would have 80 hrs into the sheetrock portion of the job. Couldn't believe it!!!! But I used the number and plugged it into the estimate.
So I got the job, did the work and then looked through my time logs to see how I did. I had 82 hrs into the sheetrock portion of the job!!!!
My multiplier includes all aspects of the job. Set up, hauling srap, hanging, taping, and spraying.
This summer I used that number to estimate a basement sheetrock project. 46 sheets of drywall later I was within 1.5 hours of my prediction.
But an interesting twist came later at the lumber yard. I asked what the going rate for sheetrock is, and found out that my bid was close to 3 times the "going rate". Am I ever going to work new construction as a commodity? Heck no!!! But I can sell myself in the retail arena which is what remodeling is.
Now go through the thinking process of a tradesman. He/she probably "knows" what the going rate is and can't get their mind wrapped around the fact that the "going rate" is only one slice of the value they can deliver on a project. To a tradesman's mind, that is the whole value.
Bowz
I think you are getting too detailed in the information you are tracking.
Well, okay. That first time card probably is too detailed. But what about my seconded idea in post 219? Are there any drawbacks to using a custom time card for each job? You already make up an estimate for it anyway. Why not just blank out the estimated man hours and use that as your time card?<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Again, what are the drawbacks to using your estimate for each phase of a project as a time card? It just seems so easy. Please let me know of any reasons this might be worse than a standard time card, because right now, it’s looking pretty simple and appealing to me.<!----><!---->-T
Please let me know of any reasons this might be worse than a standard time card, because right now, it’s looking pretty simple and appealing to me.
T,
I think your #219 time card would be better. The reason I would have seperate time cards is that i track other stuff on the same basic sheet. But we are getting into the mechanics of how I personally function.
Also what I am able to do in my paper system is all my figuring is in front of the number I come up with. Let me explain it this way: I figured a basement once. It was 7' high and 200 ft of wall. So that is 1400 sqr ft. 1400 into the 32 sqr ft in each 8' sheet is 44 sheets.
On the job I came up around 12% short.If I didn't have my paper notes i would have assumed I just screwed up and went on. But I realized from my notes i never allowed for the 12" of scrap I was cutting off of each sheet!!!
I am not at all against spreadsheets, One of my goals is to get more going on them. But in doing so I am trying to see what my final result is rather than just speeding up the process. It's like a car heading toward a brick wall at 15MPH, but now we have created a system to allow the car to hit the wall at 55MPH. I guess I am waiting to figure if hitting the wall at 15MPH is a good idea in the first place. Again, a lot of this has to do with how I personally function, not how anybody else should operate.
Gotta Run
Bowz
<!----><!---->
However, maybe a that time card format isn’t the best way to track man hours anyway. As I said, this thread has really helped me to think through things, and I was thinking things over while making up that post.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
What if you had a custom time card for each job? Really, it wouldn’t be that much work. All you would have to do is use a copy of your estimate and leave the man hours blank.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
For example:<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Tear out the old door: ____<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Rebuild the sill: ____<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Install door: ____<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Locks: ____<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Trim: ____<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Storm: ____<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Simply fill in the blanks. What do you think?<!----><!---->-T
"By the way have you heard from Silver. I think we should sent a dog sled team out to look for him."Woke up this morning to dogs licking my face...:>))
CHEERS TO ALL!!!!!! Hey Cargin-thanks for the wake-up call,I was bogged down finishing a tricky install just before Christmas...and then-
I've been celebrating Christmas! My 2 daughters arrived home Christmas Eve at 11:00 pm... I always think about that line about Scrooge: And it was always said he knew how to make Christmas merry.
...had some time to sing Christmas carols with old friends and have a glass or three of cheer.I read through this thread last night...some very interesting posts. Have to reread since I was gone and check out take 3-cargin version.That'll be a treat for me-you think differently than I do and I'm bound to learn something...the big picture in this thread is mindset and assumptions...My son bought me the book-The 4 hour workweek-that is helping to expand a few of my assumptions.I'll try to get back into the thread.Fact is, this thread has been extremely helpful to me in seeing how other tradesmen think, estimate and the assumptions they approach life and business with. I'd go so far to say that as our assumptions change, we change...Bowz changed his approach after his assumptions changed.cheers,silver
Glad to have you back Phil
Last time you posted was about 1 week ago and about 50 posts ago.
I was really starting to think something bad happened.
I always think of that line in Scrooge too, and I try to take it to heart.
The discussion has gone many different ways. It was supposed to be How Do You Speed Up Estimating, now it is going towards how do you make it more time consuming so that you can accurately track your costs.
I'm just a lazy disorganized slob at heart. Hey that's why I am in construction. If I was organized and disiplined I would be a CPA and I would be going to Arizona to play golf instead of knocking ice of of roofs in Dec.
Let me know what you think of Take 3 cargin version.
Rich
Phil
I do lots of custom work so each project is unique... I go through each project mentally, listing the major tasks and then put a number down from my mental database given the known givens-PITA customer?/dogs/kids/problems...and when I need to I add fudge margins to each task...
That's what I describe in take 3 cargin version materials in the left hand column and a labor task in the right hand column.
I have a mental database too, but sometimes I am overly optimistic. (Read Stupid)
I am going to start tracking my time. I am not going to track every 15 minutes. If I do a exterior door install then I need to record the amout of time it took. I keep all my bill summarys but I am starting to go one step further and enter that into a speadsheet.
I have started going back through my old jobs and bill summarys and creating that spreadsheet. I already have about 15 categories and I see the need for more.
I thought I would average the costs/ SF,LF,SQ (whatever was appropriate) at the bottom. And record the SF,LF,SQ/ hour, and get that averaged. It gets pretty complex and I don't know if I have the right design yet.
For instance I started a category for Ext. Doors. Well several of my installs have been patio doors with double or triple the cost in materials. And with all the different options in doors do I need an average cost of materials for doors?
If nothing else I will have all my jobs taken out of bill summary and into a central location with the cost of mat, labor and the # hours recorded.
Right now it is very time consuming. After I get it implemented it will be only one more step in the billing process. I have already taken an hrs/sq number from there and entered it in my vinyl siding worksheet.
How long are the girls home? I'll bet it was sweet.
We went caroling too on Sat. before Christmas. I'm the caroling nut, and every year I round up neighbors and family and we go caroling around the neighrbohood.
You should have seen the smiling faces of the people we blessed. One group of kids stood out on the steps and watched us for 3 more houses. In past years we have had people get all teary eyed with joy. Then we go back to the house and eat pizza and drink hot chocolate.
We had Tim home for Christmas for 4 days and we will get him again for New Years for 3-4 days. I don't think he wanted to go back last time. It was hard on me, even harder the taking him in the first place. I just have to keep my eyes on the future and trust that God has a plan.
Take care of the family.
Rich
Jerrald
Getting hammered is how you learn. I didn't mean to imply that you were mean spirited. Silver and I have had this thread to ourselves for quite a while.
Silver and I have been getting our thinking expanded by the helpful people here at BT.
I'm just a hick from the sticks who started driving nails because I couldn't get a teaching job. I wasn't good at it, but I liked it. You wake up 25 years later and you're still doing it.
I am taking inventory of my business practices. How much I charge per hour, how much I mark up. I have recently moved from $35 /hr to $40 /hr. And I changed my material markup from 10% to 20%. At $40/hr I know I am charging twice as much as some other contractors in town. Some don't mark up materials at all.
After being in this discussion for a while I am starting to get it through my head that it doesn't matter what others charge.
I am also learning that many of you are charging alot more and then marking up materials and labor 30-50%.
We do remodeling and repair. Alot of blue collar work, down and dirty. Vinyl siding and laminate countertops, not much cedar shingles or granite countertops in our jobs.
But we are all over the map in what we do, so estimates vary greatly. Some times we are on the farm, some times we are on the roof and sometimes we are in the living room.
I don't track my labor so that I can figure task times. I am still trying to wrap my mind around how to do that and decipher the data. Another thread I have out there is My Handicap son may be moving out. For the last 19 years I haven't had alot of free time on my hands.
Last Feb it was slow and I changed from MS Works to MS Excel. I had just read the JLC article (Oct.) on estimating with Excel. So I decided to redo all my estimate templates. I was using the same SF numbers or LF number again and again so I thought why not automate some of these tasks.
I have just now learned how to use different sheets. So your ideas about client information and relevant project information intrigues me.
I don't know how I would keep materials costs and labor task times in a dedicated workbook that different estimates could automatically access. I don't understand spreadsheets that well yet.
I hope this has helped you get a picture of where I'm at.
I really value your input and I will try to utilize your ideas.
Thank you.
Rich
All the rest of you can still tell us about your methods of estimating.
I found this thread fasinating. I would still like to hear from more of you on how to do the estimating thing better.
Share some of your methods. And thank you to those of you who already have.
There is some real good reading in this thread. In Feb when it is real slow I am going to reread this and look up some of the resources.
I just want get better at the office side of this work.
This thread has also expanded my thinking about how I run my business.
Rich
Hey Rich,I'll chime in on the value of this thread and it's worth keeping alive..." just want get better at the office side of this work.
This thread has also expanded my thinking about how I run my business."It's helped me and I found it fascinating as well...email? I love it-what did we do without it?cheers,silver
Hi All, I just joined in on this thread. The sentiment that rang the most true for me was what Mike smith said about your competition being in your head. I've worrked for ten years as a sub just getting by. last few years I've been doing bigger projects on my own (mainly additions). I've done my best to do a great job even at the expense of my profit. IT may seem lame at first (and painful at times) but in the end, I get a lot of referals these days. My customers are the type who want a quality job. So long as I do my best, I can't see not having this trend contimue. I'm begginning to feel less intimidated by putting out higher pricing knowinf that if the customer wants it done right, the price isn't their first descision factor. I do worry about the slow down in the market but truth is everyones in the same boat so we just have to roll with it. As far as estimating, I still do things in a relatively slow manor. I create takeoffs, get quotes, etc. I'm hoping with experience I will be able to ballpark certain things and come to a better understanding of square foot pricing. I would love to try excell but I am currently a Mac user. perhaps a change is in order. I do have templates that I use for contracts however where I just have to type up the scope of work for each job then plug in the missing info on the contract (name, date, amount) It's a slow learning process. but it's kinda fun. It's definitely challenging.bye all,Jason"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
My worksheets give me the option of the 1st price (usually right hand column) or if I am uncomfortable with my estimate then I pad the labor by 10%. Or I can chang it to any % I want by just changing the formula.
Rich
rich.. what is the population of your market area ?
i can work the whole state of RI in tough times. but most of the time i work within 10 miles of our office
looking at your last post... you ain't charging enough
you should be charging about $45 or so on normal jobs.. now.. don't get me wrong
your customers don't have to know what you're charging.. but your BID PRICE and PROPOSALS should reflect higher numbers in your price
in good times .. or normal times you have to charge more to help carry you over the bad times
knowing your costs is only half the battle.. you also have to be willing to charge what you're worth.... which has nothing to do with what "Alias Smith & Jones " are charging
really.. in the real world your customers have no idea what a job is worth .. or what they should be paying for it
they may get three prices.. but the prices will never be based on the same work... never.... ever
you have to sell
and of course it also helps if you are the only bidder... which happens more often than you will believe... much more oftenMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I was dreading this reply when I posted to Silver because from reading your posts I know you do good work and you know how to price it.
LeMars IA has a population of about 10,000.
I usually don't tell people what I am charging. My invoices say
Materials $100
Labor $100
Total $200
Same with bids. I will detail what I am providing but the (usually not the SF) and then Materials, Labor and Total
I have fewer problems at $35 / hour than I did at $12 years ago with people thinking I charge too much.
You're right I am not charging enough. We are making it but I scaled back on my IRA contributions a year ago in order to get caught up and I am still not caught up.
Thanks for the comments. And the prodding
Rich
we give a nice detailed ( one page ) Proposal.. but when it comes to the line for price... there is just one number
PRICE
no Labor...... no Materials... nothing other than the one price
on a roof job it will say: strip & reroof, furnish & install Certainteed TL Landmarks, alum drip edge, RooftopGuard II underlayment.. job clean up
then a lot of boilerplate..
and a payment schedule
.. but never anything which lets them disect my proposal or make guesses as to how much i'm charging or marking up
we don't gouge our customers... but we do make enoug money to stay in business and pay our insurance and buy new tools and vehicles.. it's how we've managed to stay in business for 30 years... but it never really happened until i changed my mindset about charging enough for our work
the first step was in recognizing that my " competitors " were all in my mind.. i really didn't have any competition.. i really just have a relationship with my customers.. we're going to give them the best job we know how... and this is how much we're going to charge to do it
if they want to hire someone else.. good luck to them.. i hope they find someone who will give them the same good deal... but i bet they won'tMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
the first step was in recognizing that my " competitors " were all in my mind.. i really didn't have any competition.. i really just have a relationship with my customers.. we're going to give them the best job we know how... and this is how much we're going to charge to do it
I have to get that in my head.
60-75% of what we do is from repeat customers.
Rich
" but it never really happened until i changed my mindset about charging enough for our workthe first step was in recognizing that my " competitors " were all in my mind.. i really didn't have any competition.. i really just have a relationship with my customers.. we're going to give them the best job we know how... and this is how much we're going to charge to do it
Hi Mike,How long ago did you change your mindset?...I am in the process of changing my mindset and pricing right now. I can relate to cargin-
the business "apprenticeship" has been a long learning curve, longer than the trade.Phil
it was probably when we were comming out of the last recession/depression ('87 - '93 around here )
i did a lot of thinking.. two things helped a lot:
incorporating so i became just another employee
and signing up for a payroll service
the fact that i got a paycheck every week and having to make sure the money was in the payroll account did a lot to help change that mindsetMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Incorporating helped my mindset as well...Break time probably has been the biggest eye opener for me...seeing how other guys do things...and learning new ways of doing old things.and you said it rather clearly-the competition is in your mindZig Ziglar talks about stinkin' thinking...what you are worth-what a job is worth/costs is a very subjective thing.I've just recently realized that if know your numbers and know you are in business to make money and a profit on every job,if you can convince yourself of that, you can look your customer in the eye and sell him on that price...lke Zig says... the sale is made before you leave the office... things that I'm working on...
silver
Silver
Sounds like we have similar operations.
Tells me about your business. Just the 2 guys working?
From your spreadsheet I think I know your hourly wage. Do you markup jobs L&M 30%?
What do you do on T&M jobs.
What kind of jobs do you do?
I am in the process of reevaluating how I do business. It's easy to say just start charging more. But I read peoples faces when I give them the bill or an estimate. I deal with insurance adjusters with their national matrix numbers. I know when I don't get jobs.
But I also struggle to keep up financially.
There are periods of the year when we really need more work and other periods when we have too much.
Most of what we do is remodeling and repair. 1 day to 2 weeks.
We hardly ever frame a wall. We are usually fixing someone elses screw up.
I really enjoyed this thread. It challenged my thinking. I sure Mike Smith gets tired of telling us slow learners to bump it up.
I just wanted to connect with some one in my similar situation. I think Craig F in Kansas is in the same boat.
If you need help with Excel, drop me a line.
Rich
never,,,, it reinforces my backbone to bump it up myself
when times get slow and the backlog becomes a
"well in three weeks, i'll lay everyone off including me"
the next call i get , i'm SOOOOO tempted to do anything at any price just to get the job
past experience says that's fatal.. it just means i'm digging the hole deeper..
i have to get my price or lay everyone off and wait
one of the benefits of incorporating in '95 was that i became just another employee and i pay into the Unemployment Insurance just like the rest of the employees
anyways, helping you helps me
here's my formula:
labor + burden equals my labor rate (all direct costs associated with labor )
( permits + labor rate + matls + subs + rental equipment ) x 1.3 for OH
( permits + labor rate + matls + subs + rental equipment ) x 1.2 for PROFIT
using that... at the end of the year i've paid myself for 80 hours a week at the same rate as my highest carpenter
and i MAY , or MAY NOT, have a profit for the corporation
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, why do you show that equation split into 30% mu and 20% mu? Couldn't you just mark it all up 50% and save yourself a step? FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
my program template has a two -step process
i always allocate the overhead the same %
sometimes i adjust the profit MU up or down......
up for higher risk
there is a lso a contingency markup in the template.. whcih i have used on occasion for various unknowns
anyways.. since it is a template.. it really isn't a step..
i enter my labor projections
i enter my material take-offs
i enter my subs quotes and the program does the rest , including printing the Proposal Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Cargin, the big question I have, and it has to be answered before you can approach the way Mike does biz, is this.
What will it take for you to be comfortable proposing all your jobs with ONE PRICE the way Mike does? And then doing the work, profit or loss, at that proposed ONE PRICE?
Sorry if this is redundant or not a valid q. I did not read all the posts, and you may be doing this now.
But . . . if you are providing ESTIMATES as proposals, and then actually charging by ACTUALs, you need to make the quantum leap up into another level, to be able to make more profit.
T&M is for those who don't need or want those new tools or that new truck.
I bid maybe 10% of my jobs.
What will it take for you to be comfortable proposing all your jobs with ONE PRICE the way Mike does?
I would have to do better at estimating my labor costs. That has been part of this thread. I have been wrestling with how do I track and quantify my labor costs so that at the time of bidding I know what it is going to take to perform a certain job.
Jim Allen posted what he does earlier.
You're right I probalbly should move to a bid only system. When you estimate a job people still expect the bill to be pretty close to that estimate. If I went to a bid system, what's the difference, I still have to perform to the level of my orginal bid/estimate.
Sorry if this is redundant or not a valid q. I did not read all the posts, and you may be doing this now.
You can't read everything. No I am not bidding everything. I apprieciate your iinsights.
you need to make the quantum leap up into another level, to be able to make more profit.
That says it all.
Thanks
Rich
cargin..... i used to sweat over the labor.. and i think you should develop better tracking so you can get better..
but in my own experience.. since we are GC's and we never do the same thing twice.. i have come to the conclusion that i am never going to get it right anyways
something will always influence the amount of time it takes to do something
i know for a fact that my subs never get it right... but the better ones have been doing it long enough that they know how to make a profit.. i bet they never hit the labor right either
so .. if they don't get it right.. and they are specialists... how am i going to get it right ? i'm a generalist
anyways.. here's my method..
estimate like a pessimist.... price like a pessimist.... sell like an optimist and work like an optimist.. if you lose money.. get more pessimistic next time
we are not very efficient ( judging from the outside looking in )
but we are very careful to do it the best we know how.... i think the most efficiency evolves from getting the right sequence for all tasks
and having guys with the skill to do it right.. even so , we make mistakes all the time and we have to correct our work
what i really hope for is that the things we do well on the job will carry enough profit to make up for the things we screw up and lose money on
i also think that my competition is NOT really any better at it that we are
now , there are some companies that have great staffs, with highly skilled carpenters, and great supervison, timely delivery of materials.. good scheduling, great subs
my impression is that there is a large overhead price to pay for that efficiency..
here.... i have one part time bookeeper who comes in for about 2 hours on every Wednesday...then he spends another 5 -6 hours offsite
then we have two carps who can work without direct supervisoin
and i float back and forth between the office and the field
i sell, post on Breaktime, design, supervise, solicit bids, estimate, market, dig ditches, do office work, go to meetings, install siding, buy tools & equipment, paint, order materials, get permits, meet with the accountant once a year, and play golf on Wednesday afternoon...
not bad for a 3-man operation
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the reply
I am reevaluating how I do business.
Insight from the outside helps.
About trucks and tools.
The better the truck the more the insurance and the less you want to work it hard. The same with fishing boats.
All tools get old and used. I went to the auction of a deceased carpenter and I was amazed at how little the bidding prices were for perfectly good tools.
What I want from instead of tools and trucks, is time. Time away from work.
I want to go fishing more. Have coffee with any old neighbor who won't be with us much longer . I want to go through life not watching my watch and thinking that I have to get back to work.
I want that meter in my mind to be shut off at times where I am not always concious of how much time I am spending at any given task. Generally I am more relaxed on bid jobs and not so concious of the clock.
I want to go to SD and help a buddy build his hunting lodge. Freebie. I want to go help with the Katrina cleanup. I want to go on missions trips. Fishing trips.
Work is always the most fun when your'e not getting paid, you're just doing it out of the goodness of your heart.
As long a truck (van in my case) gets you to work and back and it not an embrassment in the HO driveway it is good enough for me. I drive a 2001 E-250 van.
You can never have enough tools, or fishing rods, or lures or guns. Once you get the tool of your dreams then you are looking for the next fix.
Rich
"I think Craig F in Kansas is in the same boat."I'm in a very similar situation and watching this thread. Glad you started it!
Craig
So tell me about your business.
What kind of jobs do you do?
For what kind of people?
Do you bid or do you do T&M?
How much do you mark up Materials? Labor?
What tools do you use to help you estimate/Bid?
The more I read on BT the more I realize I have been operating in a vacuum.
This the only vechile that I can use to change my mindset. To get information on how the rest of the world operates.
And I am enjoying the dialog with others who are doing a better job than I am at running their business.
I love the tips on software and estimateing tools. I'm just in a peroid of self examination and a desire to change.
Thanks for listening.
Rich
I really appreciate your posts because I feel I am operating in a vacuum too and also am going through a period of self examination.I am a one man band who lives in a town of less than 300 people. I'm guessing that if I drew a 20-25 mile radius circle from where I live there would be 10-12,000 people in it. Agriculture is the main industry here and we are just coming out of a 7 yr. drought. They have good crops at a good price and money is starting to flow again.People here are very financially conservative. I can remember a guy moving away to the city and coming back amazed that people there actually expected every yr. to be better than the last instead of seeing disaster lurking around the corner. The population is decreasing here and Home prices haven't increased at near the rate other places in the country have. I work for retired people, farmers and business owners. As far as the wage earners I work for, $20-25,000 a yr. is a pretty good job. I do some work for the school and the City.I don't do electrical, plumbing or HVAC. As far as the kind of work, the only way I can describe it is--whatever comes my way. If you start at the footer and go to the peak of the roof, I have had something to do with that part of the house. I am not really good at any one thing, but jack of all trades and master of none doesn't describe it. I try to find out what makes a quality job and do it. My value is that a small job can't be subbed to three or four different people without ending up being a hassle.Like you I work at $30/hr. I try to work for a bid price, mostly because my customers wouldn't understand my rate and the need for overhead and profit. In my thread where I was asking about allowing for error in bidding, Idaho Don made a pretty good case for T&M. I think I have had some jobs that T&M would have fit well.On materials, I get a discount at the yard and charge the customer retail. On high risk items like windows, I make sure I have enough markup because someday, I am going to break or mis-measure one.(Something I learned here on BT)I put a 10% profit in my bids, but like you sometimes I give that up. A bad habit.I bought a book-Estimating With Microsoft Excel- and set up a series of linked spreadsheets into a system. My problem is I have been haphazard about gathering data in the past to have good numbers to put in it. Also my jobs are all over the map.I am at a turning point. It used to be I could be casual about the way I priced jobs and still end up with money to pay bills. Not so anymore. Gas prices, Health care costs and most of what I buy are the same whether I live in a small town or not. I need to change.No retirement fund, no room for vehicle replacement, no vacations. Always scrambling to pay off a health care bill. Yet I keep plowing along. Thanks for making me think.
craig... i feel for you man..
at 45, have you thought of relocating ?..
or increase your marketing to become one of the top 10 in your 12,000 person market
there must be some pockets of people there who are more concerned with getting it right than getting it cheap... they're the ones you want calling you
a good book on that is "Guerilla Marketing"
in short, we all know the secret to success is not better estimating (at least once you've eliminated the big mistakes ).. the real secret is in selling your jobs at a profitMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks. I really appreciate your posts. Sharing your experience has helped alot. Your last post in particular is going to get printed and pinned to the wall.Relocation is going to happen some time in the next year or two. My wife is a school teacher and her wage is probably been declining in the past years when inflation is factored in. She's been at it 24 yrs and teachers who student teach under her are making first year wages more than her. Enrollment is dropping to alarming levels.In the places we are thinking about going to, I think it would be possible to charge another $10-20 per hr. More importantly, I think I could find a niche in a bigger place.I'll check out the book. Getting started in a new place is a big concern. I'll have to do some marketing which I have never done before.Again, thanks for the help.
I liked your post.
I don't have time to reply (it's noon hour).
I can picture your situation pretty well..
My town is about 10,000 and it is expanding.
I'll reply later.
Rich
Hi Rich, Been busy selling and keeping up with job details so I haven't been keeping up with this thread...however I was inspired by what you did with my spread sheet and have attached a "cargin" inspired spread sheet. I sold that job a few nights ago-with some insight from Mike and Jim's earlier posts.I posted this earlier but deleted it because I realized it contained my customer's info...anyway it shows my reworked numbers and what I sold the job at...with my markups. I should have some time over the week-end to read through this thread and to answer your questions...I've discovered I enjoy selling...it's keeping up and delivering that's a bit of a challenge.silver
Craig
Sorry I haven't replied for several days. I've been busy with work and family life. I refuse to put BT before my wife and kids. It so addictive though it can be tough sometimes.
I charge $35 per hour. I have fewer people complaining about my bills because I usually have 3 people on the job. Myself and my 2 sons. When I was the only person on the job it was easy for them to figure your hourly rate.
Like Mike I feel for you. It's not easy to pack up and move to a better economic area. We had four families from our church move to the Rapid City/Deadwood area because they thought they could do better. For 2 of the families it was a disaster. They tried to go into construction without the skills and they got hooked up with the wrong guy.
I have friends who work in a town your size and the pace of life is slower. That can be nice. Unless of course you struggle to make it.
Like you we do whatever comes our way. We are problem solvers for our customers. We do some plumbing and wiring when need be. If we do a bathroom job we do the whole thing. Same with kitchen jobs. We will add a circuit or hook up the sink and dishwasher. If we do a countertop we pull the sink install the counter and rehookup the sink. It would be a disaster if we had to have a plumber to tear out and then reinstall.
Most times we are dealing with old systems that have galvanized pipe, 3/8 copper, 1/2" copper and and what ever else the last 40 years can throw at it. Anything we do is an upgrade.
I do all my estimating on Excel. It really helps me to think and to keep track of what I have done in the past. But I need to find a way to bring the data together. I need to track jobs and find out what it cost us to do operation X. The problem is (and it is the same problem that I have in training help) we may do a certain job and then not repeat those skills for another year.
Most of the people here are very conservative. I work mostly for middle income people. Almost no new construction. We rarely frame a wall.
The past 2 weeks we have finished a bid job on the library bathroom (SR, taping, painting, suspended ceiling, solid surface sink and stalls), expanded a compossite deck(T&M), replaced rotten deck boards (T&M), shingled 1/2 a house (bid), traced a leaking roof (ended up replacing about 3.5 sq of shingles) (T&M).
Next week we will start on a complete bathroom gut and remodel.
Excuse me I'm rambling.
As for me I have to get a better handle on labor costs (the way we work, not from a book) from past experience and bid things with some profit.
One of the 1st things you could do is markup materials above retail. And don't apologize for it. If it is going to be carried on your account and you have the knowledge to buy the right materials for the job then you should be paid for it.
You have alot of experience at knowing what needs to done and what is the right material to do the job. That's valuable. That you are on BT and read FHB shows you have the desire to do things the right way.
A lot of what we do is fixing things that were done the wrong way.
Rich
You have a lot of things going for you.People like family operations because they know your sons will do things like you do.Doing some of the plumbing and wiring is a huge convenience for your customers. How does your rate compare with plumbers and electricians in your area? Maybe your not pricing that part of the job high enough.I am going to take your suggestion about marking materials up to heart. I need to rethink my markup in general.I have the same problem with labor estimates you do. I know the thread is about estimating methods, but I keep coming back to Mike Smith's comments about selling the job at a profit. I have been thinking about how to stand out from the pack.Like you, my area is very conservative with very few new houses. This can work to our advantage. I have stumbled across customers who when they started out thirty years ago, they got into housing which was the cheapest they could afford. They kept everything up well, but now they have things paid off, have peaked in their earnings and their house is outdated. Because of social reasons or the land the house is on, they aren't going to move. Because housing values are flat, even if they wanted to move, a new mortgage would seem risky. So, they want to update and have the money for fancier tastes. I have been thinking all weekend about what I can do for people in this situation. Now I'm rambling (and off the subject too). Just thought I would throw that out to you.By the way, thanks for the encouragement.
I didn't see this post earlier. You are right about family and the way it is percieved. My boys have a very good reputation with people in town.
Our rate stays the same no matter if we are doing carpentry or plumbing.
It was easy to teach boys plumbing and wiring. You put together things that are already made. With carpentry oftimes we are building something that was just a concept. That is more difficult. My boys are really good at putting together a light kit or a lockset.
I talked with a plumber yesterday and he is charging $50/hr for himself and the same for his employee (whos is really good).
Rich
Craig
By the way, could you share some of your spreadsheets. That's why I started this thread in the first place.
What do you mean by linked spreadsheets?
Maybe I could learn something there.
Rich
I'm putting something together based on this book:http://www.amazon.com/Estimating-Excel-Unlocking-Power-Builders/dp/086718549X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-0454804-4585427?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194220784&sr=1-1I don't think I paid that much for it. If you're interested, look around.There is a spreadsheet called Summary. The totals for other spreadsheets like drywall, windows etc are shown on the summary sheet.I am terrible about explaining it. I will try to see if I can attach it.This sheet is a rough work in progress. Some of the sheets don't have anything in them. Some have made up numbers just to see if the sheet works. Some numbers come out of cost books, some from experience.The whole thing is pretty ramshackle now. The idea is to have data on the sheet itself, so I don't have to look it up. With every job, I'll adjust data.I have a concern I am getting too detailed and complicated and end up with errors, but I kind of like the possibilites. I'm adding to it as I go. In each spreadsheet there are drop down boxes under labor and material which bring up data from the databases below. You choose an item and enter quantity. It totals everything up and sends the total to the summary sheet.
Craig
Neat. I don't know how to link spread sheets together yet.
Nor do I know how to do those drop down boxes.
I played around on it for a while.
So far, you are using these to figure labor cost only?
How do you figure mat costs?
Do you have costs recorded else where or do you go to the yard each time with a list? Or do you just guess?
I have attached my basement worksheet. The yellow cells require data. The grey cells have formulas in them. I have used this alot on just suspended ceilings and styrofoam and furring strips and that part is very accurate. You can play with it on the BT screen or it's easier to cut and paste it on an open Excell sheet.
Just enter in like a 12x 12 room and see what you get.
This is also a work in progress. With a basement there are som many variables. Some walls have rock on both sides, some are existing, some are rock on both sides.
I will also attach my roofing worksheet. This one works really well. I use it all the time. Just enter in the roof areas and the # of layers and it will figure the rest. Labor you still have to figure yourself. I posted these earlier.
I am considering putting labor # (like per SF) off to the side to check on my labor estimates. I would keep that hidden until I had done my own estimate. And as has been discussed I need to track my labor costs.
Rich
"Nor do I know how to do those drop down boxes."I did it that way because the book did. After looking at your sheets I am not sure it's necessary."So far, you are using these to figure labor cost only? How do you figure mat costs?"There's another section on ea. sheet for material. I like the way you use color to define different parts of your sheets. If I had done that, it would be clearer what was going on and less likely to screw my formulas up."Do you have costs recorded else where or do you go to the yard each time with a list? Or do you just guess?"My motivation for this is I get a flurry of bids to do in early spring to early summer. Usually there is a bigger job where I drop a list off at the lumberyard. They print off a quote sheet with retail/disc. figures. The idea is I will enter retail in the database, adding sales tax. Then on the small jobs, usually prices on dimension lumber, drywall etc. are probably close enough. I like the idea of a markup over retail, then I won't short myself on low disc. items.I like you figuring sq.ft. etc on the spreadsheet. I usually scrawl this down in my job notebook and have to constantly find it again.
Craig
You know you can take my spreadsheet, copy and paste it on open Excel sheet and then you can play around with it. Punch in some dimensions for a basement room or a roof and see what happens.
I want material prices handy so I can crank out estimate or a bid quickly. The yard can sometimes be slow in getting back to me. On bigger jobs I will have them quote a job to me and it will always be lower that the over the counter numbers I have in the spreadsheets.
Sometimes people are just kicking tires. I give them a quick preliminary price and state we can refine the project if you get serious.
Rich
Hi Rich,
I'm chilling on Saturday morning before I go out to the shop and start
a new project...so I will try to answer your questions.I am also in the process of reinventing my business...my 2 daughters left for Spain this summer and I wanted to move to Victoria BC where the grass is much greener...finished all my projects-started getting ready to move and DW freaked on me...that's putting it mild. So I had to dig back in here in Thunder Bay(population 107,000 and shrinking). We are fairly isolated and have our own micro economy-2000 people recently lost their jobs but the housing market is still ticking along. That said, I learned long ago from Sonny that in any market, folks are buying BMW's and fancy cars...and we need to market/ sell our services as a unique value added experience-this is a work still in progress for me.I'm a carpenter, cabinet maker and a tradesman who teaches...and a company manager who is trying to educate himself as fast as possible.My company is myself and DW. We do renovations, custom cabinets, kitchens, bathrooms, some fancy custom woodworking. She does the design work and finishing. I do the selling, building and every else that comes with running a company.One of our specialty niches is handrails-and I get lots of referalls from a supplier as one of the best installers in town...and that means the job is practically presold...and specialists can charge more-right?We do mostly middle to high end jobs. I have started tracking my job costs with sheets from Michael Stone's book-Markup and Profit for contractor's and these are helping me with my numbers. I learned 'IT'S ALL ABOUT THE NUMBERS" and Know Thyself-know thy numbersWe recently figured out all our overhead costs to the penny and when you are aware of how much you need to stay in business, it changes your headspace/mindset.I hire contract labour as needed...when I need help I have a reliable carpenter who charges himself out at 28/hr.-not enough and I keep telling him to raise his prices.I try to never work T&M...I use to but read so much on Breaktime that
convinced me it is rarely the most profitable system and exposes your numbers for too many potential conflicts. When I first started reading Breaktime, I think I was charging 35/hr.
quickly realized it wasn't enough and I decided to make the jump to 50/hr. The funny thing is that's still not enough. On T&M 50/hr with 35% overhead is 67.50 which would include OH/profit...a harder sell...or you show OH/profit on a separate line at 35%/50% and the questions start.After reading Michael Stone's newsletter and book, I started adding 30% minimum to job costs and since I have gone to 35/40 and sometimes
50%...and I sold all those jobs. Now, I don't like to leave money on the table and the fact is the price should give some sticker shock-
customers usually have no idea how much things cost or overhead/risk.But at 55 I'd rather stay home than give it away...the saving grace in our business is percieved value-if I understand correctly-this is what our customers think of our company/experience from our marketing/referalls. A contractor that I used to work for gave me this
tidbit of wisdom...you don't have to be the best-just the best at marketing...not my personal philosophy but there is truth in it.Back to percieved value...I see it working with my subs. On the last 2 or 3 sales, my subs chatting up my customers while quoting have helped my customers to see my company as a percieved value. Mindset has come up several times...and I'm convinced that if you change your mind/thoughts,you change your experience.Think and grow rich by napoleon hill helped expand my mind when it was recommended here several years ago and Michael Stone's newletters and book helped open my mind...Another very good one is Gertel's-Running
A Successful Construction Company. I've seen these 3 books recommended here and over at JLC. It seems to be about believing what you are worth/self esteem. And
once you establish that in your own head, you can convince your customers with your own confidence. It's interesting that a con artist use confidence to deceive so there's no reason we can't use it to sell
the most important thing in our life...our time. out to the shop...back tonight...this is a fun thread for me.cheers,silver
Silver
This is a fun thread for me too.
I have to work today. No time to BT.
I'll try to reply to both you and Craig in depth tonight.
Rich
Silver
I saw you logged on just before me.
I had 10 minutes free and I was going to try to reply to Craig F.
I had to read his reply and yours before replied and now time is up.
I have to get myself and kids ready for church.
Check out my thread from March 07 called Restoring a hand painted Victorian ceiling.
That's my home and my project.
You'll enjoy the picture of the stairway.
Gotta go.
Rich
Thanks for the reply.
I should look up Micheal Stone's book.
This thread is turning into changing our own mindset about our own percieved value.
That's hard because I see a job and think " I would never pay someone to do that, I would just get out the cordless and do it". I think from my wallet and not the customers. And skill set.
We are serving mostly middle income people. I don't work much on morgage hill ( the high income area of our town0 very much.
I used to do more trim and custom woodworking but we have been getting alot of blue collar work the last 3-8 years.
Your'e going to hate me but I redid your worksheet again.
I like things to be on one page as much as possible. I like to see what I am doing with out scrolling up and down. That's not always possible.
A spreadsheet for me is a way to organize my thoughts and numbers and use Excel to do the math. Get all the information in front of me and let me play with the numbers.
A spread sheet should be designed the way your mind works, not the way my mind works. That why it is good to build your own.
You will see I converted some of your numberss to $. If you highlight a cell or a group of cells then hit $ then it converts everything into $.
I also organized the materials columns with quanity and price. Most of your orginal sheet you were just manually moving #s around. I urge you to build a sheet that does this for you so that when you change hours or mat. quanities then the change is automatically reflected in the totals below.
Then save this worksheet for the next rail job. Just change the hours and quanities to fit the new job.
Rich
Getting ready this am to switch from salesman to lead carpenter...spent 3 hrs. in the shop last night packing and organizing.Just came here for a quick post...skimmed the threads...not much time
but I'm thankful you reworked the excel-the beauty of Breaktime is it
makes the learning curve shorter...I'll study it later.A customer just sent this in an email and that was why I'm posting before I fly:Good morning Phil… No rush but when you get an opportunity, could I get a cost break-down for the renovation project? I would like to know what I am paying for materials and labour for the wall teardown, ceiling/drywall repair, and railing. Thanks. SonnyaIf anyone has a good comeback, I'd love to hear it.Cheers,
silver
" that information is kept in-house unless we are doing a Cost -Plus contract, in which case the Owner gets all of the detailed costs: labor, materials & sucontracts.
on Fixed Price contracts , we do not give out that information. "
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Thanks for the reply...it's perfect.silver
So I just downloaded Goldenseal - at first glance (Mac OSX), it looks like it'll do everything and more and seems like it has a very simple interface.Any users here care to comment on this particular program?Thanks,Julian
I use it, and really like it.It will take some time to set it up for the way YOU estimate, but once you do, you'll be amazed at how fast and accurate it is.For instance: A fairly normal estimate now takes me a quarter of the time it did. I tend to spend a lot of time reviewing the finished estimate because it was just TOO easy. It seems like I should spend more time on it.Templated estimates are worth there "virtual" weight in gold. Much less chance of forgetting something.I did purchase Goldenseal just before they raised their price. I got the full version for $495. To be honest, I wouldn't have bought it for the current price at the time. I would now, after using it for a year!I haven't done a lot with the accounting side of it. I'm planning to start using it beginning this January.If you have any specific questions about Goldenseal, I'll be glad to try and answer them, if I can.T.N.
So it seems that this program could fully take the place of QuickBooks Pro, right?I wonder what my acct. would think about using this vs. QBP?I haven't delved into the demo enough to ask any informed questions. Are you using it on a Mac or a PC?Thanks,Julian
The progam will take the place of QB Pro very nicely. I don't know what your accountant would think; I know a lot of accountants love Quickbooks.I run Goldenseal on a Mac, but have used the demo on a Windows machine. They're pretty much identical.T.N.
Silver
How did your meeting go with the lady who wanted more information on the numbers for your bid?
Rich
Hey Rich,
I've been in full tilt boogie all weekend on another rail job and haven't had time to keep up with this thread...The tearout/rail job...Sonnya and Hans...We had a signed contract with a down payment and I stopped by to look over the job... and they had
done the tearout! I just said no problem...I'll write a new contract with the tearout taken off and gave her husband Hans some advice on the tearout...then she sent me the following email...I really got a laugh out of it...I've got to review this thread and post later but for now... Hi Phil... I apologize for the change request. It all started with a punch in the wall that Darren was itching to do, then having him punch a few more so I could get a look at the wiring! Before long the kids were in full demolision mode! I am happy that it was taken down as it gave me a better idea of what I would like to see in the finished product. It was Darren's girlfriend that asked me if I was going to take down the wainscoting as it would look cheap against the oak railing. I really thought Hans would be a bit upset when he got home from the mine site and saw that I removed it. However, once he got the visual himself... he was gung ho! So I mentioned that we should tear down the door jams and that led to removing the drywall on each side of the jam and so on it goes....
With you steering the way, my entire family and extended family have all become involved in the project and everyone's suggestions and opinions have been invaluable in what I know will be an amazing transformation!
I can't thank you enough!
Sounds like one happy customer.
It's about relationship.
Sometimes it's more important to get along with people, than to have absolutely perfect workmanship.
That's hard for craftsmen to take, but it's true.
I've known excellent cabinetmakers who always had trouble on jobs, just because they were difficult to work with, not because they did poor work.
Rich
Rich
Hi Rich,
It's going good so far and aim to keep it that way. I have to change my contract to a project management contract.I'm thinking about billing myself out at 65.00/hr. and an experienced carpenter at 50.00 overhead included...I'd like to go higher but...mindset... I'm not there yet...Or charge out at 50.00 per carpenter plus 35%/40% overhead for the business...that's a harder sell...but possibleSelling is easy and I've become good at it...delivering is harder...and I consider myself a craftsman so that makes it more challenging to deliver a quality product and service ...but I seem to enjoy it and that is our life going by...Back to estimating, I know I make the money in the office...I'd duking it out in the field but if I did my homework, I'm happy making a good
buck and if I bid low (like I did when I really needed work after wanting to go out west) I bid low and work my #### off.A fast learning curve now...time is all we have and the older I get, the more I realize how valuable energy/time/money is...and I've got none to waste...so getting my #### together in the office is top priority...which is why I have enjoyed this thread so much...it's helping me get my #### together. I'm rambling tonight...been a long day, worked the weekend grinding away at finishing a job...worked in the shop til 11:00 and now trying to chill for a spell at BT.enjoy your day tomorrow...I was thinking about you and Tim today...phil
Good Morning Phil
Nice to hear from you. How's is it going with Excel? I do all my thinking on a spreadsheet anymore.
Tim is pumped about going to the Village everyday. He likes to do work. He really wants to become an adult. I don't think he has a clue what he is in for when it comes to living away from the family. But he will probably surprise us.
I am not looking forward to taking him up there on the 26th and then driving away. It's feels like taking your 5 year old to boarding school. Tim is a mix of young man and small child. The small child part is what makes him so endearing. When I get home at night I will hear from the living romm "Daddys home , YEAH" (real high pitched YEAH).
Work and life are coming to a head right now. All the plans for the move to the Village. We are doing a bathroom remodel I told them I could have done by Thanksgiving. They were ready 2 months ago but I put them off as long as I could so we could have some indoor work.
Yesterday they brought home a diswasher. "Do you think you could install this". Site built 1950's cabinets. Area next to the sink is 30 inches.
5 weeks ago I checked out a leaking hinged patio door (rotten underlayment and subfloor). Tore the door out and replaced rot and determined that the unit should be replaced. Well, that came in yesterday. We will stain and varnish in the shop first.
Several weeks ago I looked at underlayment replacement job. Icemaker leaked. Soaked 3 rooms of 1/2" particle board. Friends with the client, was contacted the carpet/pergo saleman. Another friend and sends jobs my way.
After a bunch of hassling with the insurance adjuster, now they are ready to go.
And I have a comemercial oak solid core door in the shop to stain and varnish. The 1st attempt at staining looks like a prisoner suit. The veneer took the stain light/dark. Another insurance job.
And I am waiting for the daytime temp to get to 50 degrees so I can lay some outdoor carpet for an old lady. That one got delayed by several weeks of rain.
Any way. I have increased my rate to $40/hour and my materials markup to 20%.
I should do more but I don't feel that the market will bare it. It's a mind thing.
Maybe I should bid things more. This bathroom is T&M and it has been a moving target. HO called my last night while I was away something about the tub or the faucet wasn't what he ordered. He bought all the major stuff. We installed the tub yesterday and sheetrcocked it into place. Just got the 1st coat of tape on.
This will be fun.
Stay in touch.
Rich
Hi Rich,If you want a few thoughts on the stain on the oak door let me know...Sounds like you're busy...life is what happens while we're busy making other plans.Gotta fly...laterPhil
Phil
I'd welcome any comments on the door.
We stained the door with Minwax Providencal(sp). It was the closest to the color of the door we are replacing. we spent an hour at Sherwin williams trying different combinations and nothing worked as well as Provinencal.
The old door finish had yellowed, so we were going to probably spray it with orange shellac.
Now we will probably wash the stain off with mineral spirits.
I am considering adding stain the laquer and spraying it on. I perfer not to. It's a techinque I use when we have to finish #2 pine or I need to get it done fast.
Rich
Morning,Thought about the door situation-my 2 cents worth:When I taught at the college, my assistant and I had a motto:WE LIKE EASY-oak usually stains uniformly regardless of veneerso I would talk to an expert at Sherwin Williams and get their opinion restain? the easist...I'd try a section before stripping if you have to strip, I don't think mineral spirits will do it...we use citristrip stripper-enviro friendly-followed by a scrub with tsp
and water-fast quick easy meets all my parametersI'd also ask SW about a pre conditioner under the stain so the oak
absorbs the stain uniformlyand like you said spraying is an option anyway have a good one-it will work out-always doescheers,
silver
Phil
Mineral spirit won't remove all the stain but it will lighten it.
I'll use stripper if I have to.
No hurry on this project.
I may try gel stain on it.
You do stair railing, right?
Check out mine.
Pretty nice work.
I didn't build it. Sure spent plenty of time stripping and cleaning it up.
Rich
that is really awesome!
I would go back to the spread sheet and figure L&M for wall tearout, drywall ect with your 30% or whatever figured in to each number and give her the numbers.
I am not like Mike. That's why able to golfs on Wed. afternoons while I am working. LOL
It starts the job out on the wrong foot if they think you are hiding something from them.
You have overhead and costs and a right to make a profit. If you are not profitable them there is no money in the kitty for retirement of health insurance. Not to mention vacations or golfing.
Seriously I golf once a year at the lumber yard open. It's great fun. I wish i was good at it.
In our small town I live around my customers and interact with them for years to come.
"That's hard because I see a job and think " I would never pay someone to do that, I would just get out the cordless and do it". I think from my wallet and not the customers. And skill set."We are identical twin brothers from different mothers.I am very conservative with my money. I live a low-key lifestyle. I learned about Carpentry so I could do-it myself. I can't afford me.(at least thats what I tell the wife when she wants something done :)I just don't live in my community, I am woven into it. I grew up here and many people have been kind to me. I struggle with what's "fair".I think that is related to estimating. I struggle to bid the absolute minimum to have the least impact on my customer. I used to think I should be able to know exactly what something was going to cost. After Mike Smith's posts I realize it's win some lose some with enough profit to equal things out in the end.Gotta go, I'm spending so much time learning to make money, I'm going to go broke.
This thread is turning into changing our own mindset about our own percieved value.
Two books that helped me to see (and sell) the hidden value to customers were, "Selling The Invisible" by Harry Beckwith, and "The Experience Economy" by Gilmore and Pine (??)
That's hard because I see a job and think " I would never pay someone to do that, I would just get out the cordless and do it". I think from my wallet and not the customers. And skill set.
Yep, I still stumble and think from the tradesman's mindset, rather than the businessman's mindset, but not nearly as much anymore. One thing that helped was to get around successful contractors, and just engage them in conversation. Not really anybody locally, but at some classes and conferences statewide, the state remodelers council, and the national remodelers show. The very successful ones definately do not think like a tradesman.
In regard to speeding up your estimating, and I am wondering if you qualify your prospects or do you shoot estimates out to anyone who calls? Because not everyone is a genuine hot prospect. The sooner you get rid of those that you are not going to do business with, the fewer estimates you will be doing.
You mentioned being a "blue collar guy in a white collar two income world". Two income white collar world is a good market, add to it they need to be over 45yrs old and I think it is a great market. ( those are two factors I look for in prospects, not just what the job is)
So if 32 year old Heather and Jason Dreamer call to have their bath remodeled, because they just had their second child and Heather is going to stay home from work now, and the husband can maybe do some of the work, if he takes some time off from the mill, ............uhhhhh....I don't really have a good prospect on my hands, when compared with the jobs that have made money in the past. (unless mom and dad or some inheritance or trust money is helping out)
Or maybe you get a call from someone trying to flip a house. You gonna rush right over and give them an estimate? I'm not. I have NEVER gotten a job from a flipper, because they generally buy on price alone.
just some thoughts,
Bowz
Thanks for the reply.
And some good thoughts. Ouch.
The very successful ones definately do not think like a tradesman. I still think like a tradesman. I know I do.
I am wondering if you qualify your prospects. No I don't. I'm too nice a guy. I have been reading about that in JLC for years. And quite frankly it turns me off. Everyone has problems and they need them fixed.
Some of my biggest money problems have come from people who have plenty of money.
I screen people more for the hassle factor rather then an economic factor. Some people are going to be a pain no matter what, and it is best to just walk away.
I need to find ways to be more profitable and more profieccient at bidding work.
Again thanks for the challenging thoughts.
Rich
I'm too nice a guy
And where do nice guys finish? LOL. You can still be nice, just change the focus of who you are being the nicest to. #1 you and your family. #2 your premium customers #3 new customers that fit your premium client description. #4 you won't have much niceness left for any body after that.
I have been reading about that in JLC for years. And quite frankly it turns me off
wasting time is a bigger turn off for me. having my daughter bring home the free and reduced price lunch scedule from school and realizing that my income qualified us was a bigger turn off. Driving a turd on wheels was a bigger turn off. Seeing old carpenters unable to retire, and seeing that as my future was a bigger turn off. The year we couldn't afford much for Christmas was a bigger turn off. yada yada yada......
does it really turn you off? or are you fearful of loosing a job, or having someone think badly of you? I gotta raise my hand real high for the second one! But "Fear is a poor chisel with which to carve out your tomorrows" (Anne Frank)
Everyone has problems and they need them fixed
True, there are people starving in Africa too, are you going to save them while you are at it? Not trying to be mean, just showing you where my thinking has changed in the last 5 or 6 years. Not everybody should own a house. if they can't do their own repairs, or hire it done..............so what!!!! That is not your problem, nor is it a bad reflection on you, if you choose not to work for them.
Some of my biggest money problems have come from people who have plenty of money.
I would say that of the 4 richest people/families I have worked for 3 were rude buttheads. But you know what the common thread was? those 3 had inherited a lot of money. Old family money, that they hadn't earned themselves. The one that was excellent to work for was a self-made multi-multi millionaire, who had come from very humble beginings.
but if on a scale of 1 to 10 those 4 people/families were 10s, I have found some of the best clients around the 7.5 to 9 level.
Notice I have another way of screening potential clients now? (not a lot fall into this category yet, but enough to learn a few of the red flags)
I screen people more for the hassle factor rather then an economic factor
But the hassle factor becomes an economic factor, and the economic factor becomes a hassle factor in your private life. So why not screen for both? And I am not saying work only for rich people. Work for people willing to recognize and pay for the value you deliver. And learn to recognize that value and learn to market and sell that value.
Bowz
bowz
Good points.
Sounds like we have alot in common.
I own some rental property. There are definitely people who should not own a house.
I am enjoying this thread because it is challenging my thinking. Hurts my pride sometimes too. No pain no gain.
Thanks again.
Rich
Bowz
I just reviewed my phone message book for the last 3-4 months. Most I have already worked for or I knew them fairly well.
4 calls were new people. One I sorta knew which family it was (big farmers) plus it was an insurance job. Second one I knew the guy's brother. Third one I knew which house it was but the guy was new to me and the fourth one was a Rural Development loan for improvements to a home just being purchased.
I probalbly pre-qualify alot more than I think I do.
Rich
Or maybe you get a call from someone trying to flip a house. You gonna rush right over and give them an estimate?
Not many flippers around here.
For me it is realtors. They always want something from me but it never turns into a job.
I have one realtor who has hired me and gives me referals all the time.
The rest I give them a small amout of time, but i don't rush right over. I never invest much time in their deal.
But in a small town it's best to stay on everyone's good side.
I need advice once and while too, so you give a little and you take alittle.
Rich
I usually don't know what a job is worth.
Everyone thinks I have these answers. and I don't until I go back to my computer and break the job down.
Yeah I can ballpark. But it's just that.
The only way I know how I compare my prices to my competition is whether or not I get the job if some one else's truck is in the driveway.
I will share a couple of my other worksheets.
My deck worksheet will figure the materials.
Most decks I build are treated framing. Cedar on anything showing. Like the outside framing. No skirt board unless I am using composite. Composite prices are not up to date. Neither are the cedar prices I found out yesterday.
And my blank worksheet. I use for small jobs that don't fit any particular model.
Yellow cells are for entering data.
Gray cells contain formulas, so don't change.
This is a hypotetical deck and I just punched in some labor #s.
Rich
Edited 10/24/2007 7:22 am ET by cargin
Edited 10/24/2007 10:33 am ET by cargin
Here is a real Blank Worksheet for widening 2 door openings for a handicap situation.
Rich
Good start Silver.Be honest now...why'd you give up the extra $55? I swear there must be a code somewhere that forces carpenters to give their services away.Your selling price shoulda been 8855 to 9855.fka (formerly known as) blue
It's worse than that Jim.I'm selling this job on Thursday and I feel prey to a bout of "realism"
this morning. I looked at the numbers and I thought- I could realistically sell this job for 7000. to 7500. or I could take tearout out as an option for the owner.hmmmm...or sell with minimum mess for 8855.00-9855? man that seems out of the question...any selling tricks up your sleeve?thanks,
silver
silver...
my basic point #1... never let 'em see you sweat
give them the options but increase your profit margin on your low leaderMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Agreed Mike. Confidence is critical. The homeowner must feel like the contractor is evaluating THEM to see if he wants to do the job for them.
fka (formerly known as) blue
any selling tricks up your sleeve?Ummm....there isn't any one easy answer. The reality is that your "selling" period has already passed. You don't "sell" the job...you sell yourself. Taunton U has had graduate classes on this very subject repeatedly for the last few years. Basically, if you've followed the advice of great mentors like Mike Smith, Lawrence, Sonny and many others, you would have already figured out a way to have the job committed to you, at your "normal" price and you would just be going back to see them to show them the numbers. If you've left your first meeting with them, without a committment from them, to use you, you probably should rethink your tactics because you now are competing on price, not on your value as a human being and contractor.This is not an easy concept to grasp and it's even harder to implement. There are lots of mini steps to take to get there, such as fully understanding your costs. Once you are sure of your costs, you won't feel like you are trying to get one over on someone when you gie them a price of 9500 that they were hoping would be 7500.fka (formerly known as) blue
Hi Mike and Jim,I have followed most of the discussions...tried to anyway...sometimes I just get totally buried with work...and I am still going back and reading archives and threads I didn't quite grasp.I also am in the process of implementing much of the wisdom...starting with knowing my company's numbers. I know my overhead now; I know how much I need to make to profit on a project...And this is a referral from a supplier who likes to say-I'm the best in town...so I'm trying to work on positioning and value above price.The guy's wife was out of town so I looked the job over and am going to sell with a proposal in hand and a confident smile on my face.And did I say that one of my specialties is creating as minimal dust and mess as possible...silver
Silver
Here is my Bill Summary worksheet that I use to figure the bill for T&M jobs or for figuring my actual cost on a Bid job.
This is an actual worksheet for a job we just finished.
I keep all old summaries in a file with a file.
When I have comparable jobs (like that ever happens) then I have a handy reference.
As mentioned in earlier posts I need to harvest this information into a data base to get a handle on labor costs. Perhaps by the SF.
Rich
I totally appreciate your help!It's going to take me a while to work my way through all of it but thanks for the homework!Reminds me of something I didn't get in the third grade: "I have gone far because I have stood on the shoulders of giants".silver
Cool-thanks for that.
On the same ambivalent note, I wish I was still teaching carpenter
apprentices so I could share all of this with them...
c'est la vie...and viva la vie.
to today and it's challenges...in another thread, I said I had found
excel inspiring and someone said man,you need to get out more.
True I said but when you are learning something new and folks are able to reach through cyperspace and take the time to share
their knowledge-damn-that's inspiring.
silver
How many bars would you have to drink at to get this advice?
Just looked at your profile, Thunder Bay - Eh. I'm a displaced canuck in CT and worked one year teaching auto mechanics at Lakeview High in T Bay
Seems like a lifetime ago.Don't know if it works in Canada, but here in the states I got a CD from Home Depot that allows me to get their current prices on most materials. The prices are updated every time you go on line to use the feature. Even if I'm buying somewhere else it gets me very close and only my fingers do the walking.Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
Connecticut?? I was raised in Massachustts-does that make me a Masshole...yep according to Vermonters...I miss New England...The cd from HD sounds good-I'll check it out and thanks for the tip-silver
Use Xactimate for Remodelers. Best thing I ever did for my company. Use the rudimentary sketch program to draw your plans. Then select the items through their lists. Add overhead/profit margin or markup (I use margin because it's more;)
The program keeps track of costs by zip code and they are constantly updating the prices to stay accurate.
Since I've used their program I've landed only profitable jobs----always stay profitable NEVER busy! If you're getting all your bids you're not charging enough!! Can reiterate how important it is for all of us to charge what we're worth. This business is hard work that tears up your body----even if you love it (like I do) it's important to get your systems in place, build your client list, and then build your business. Xactimate is worth the subscription price.
Thank you
I just looked briefly at their website. I'll look again tomrrow night.
What does it cost?
Thank you
Rich
$184.00 per quarter. They have online service help 24/7 through internet chat if you get stuck. Ask them to send you a demo disc to try it out. It's awesome
Xactimate is $184 per quarter. Since I began using the program, I've made more money than I ever did without it. Clients like the itemized estimate. It adds professionalism to the bidding process. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask!
Cooper
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask!
Can you show us a worksheet or an itemized estimate.
I'd love to see what it looks like.
I did go to the web site but I have not downloaded a free trial.
I think it was for 10 days and I wanted some open time before I downloaded.
Rich
Edited 11/6/2007 6:51 pm ET by cargin
Send me your personal email and I'll send an estimate. If there is a way to do it on this site, tell me how to attach and send a file.thanks!
Cooper
I send my e-mail address to you.
I have attached files all through this thread.
Below this dialog box it says attach files.
Then I hit browse. I go to my cargin construction file. Search for the file and hit attach files.
After an Excel file is attached then anybody can cut and paste it on to an open Excell sheet and work on it. Or you can just work on it on the BT screen without cut and paste.
Thanks for the reply, I have found this thread challenging and helpful.
Rich
If you've got a fax number you can send to my email: [email protected] I'll send you a final estimate for a customer from last year. You can also get in touch with Xactimate and they'll send you a free demo of the software. I love it. It's made me WAY more money than I was making before it.....Sorry about the delay, I've been so swamped with work, I've been lax on checking for replies!
Hey Rich,
I'm on dialup so I haven't seen the staircase yet...
Crazy busy and almost through my stupid "I need money fast" bids. Nothing like shooting yerself in the foot.
In the office today for a quick fix...I'm with you from your first post:
"I hate office work.I avoid sitting down and figuring a Bid or estimate." or I'm too busy delivering the goods.
Fact is- the office is where the money is made. Not in the field
working your bag off.
I'm determined now to make fair profit and overhead on every job. I presently have 2 projects that are to be project management style. I need a 1 page project management contract.
Do you have a simple PM contract?
silver
Good to hear from you Phil
Sorry I don't have aPM contract, mostly just a handshake around here.
Tim's open house is today 2-4 pm. So I don't have time to post.
I'll post my thoughts later.
Rich
Nice to hear from you too Rich...my thoughts are with you and Tim...I was thinking about you yesterday and thought we should keep this thread going...I've already "speeded up my estimating" and I learned several different ways to approach estimating...how cool is that?I had to do an estimate yesterday that had to be faxed in as a bid by 5:00. I had a long way to go and a short time to get there so I searched around on this thread for a quick and easy template.I found one you had posted-called "a blank worksheet" that I could just plug my numbers into and it saved me a chunk of time...for which I am grateful!Phil
Edited 11/24/2007 7:15 pm ET by silver
Good Evening Phil
We are opening Tim's many gifts tonight.
Many, many people came today to the open house. So many people so little time to talk. Tim didn't know or didn't remeber 1/2 of them.
I found one you had posted-called "a blank worksheet" that I could just plug my numbers into and it saved me a chunk of time...for which I am grateful!
That's why I started this thread.
I hope to keep it going too. I really enjoy talking to you.
It would be nice to hear from Craig F again too.
I have many thoughts but little time. Goota get back to the family.
Rich
Hi Phil
I have few minutes.
When you used "Blank Worksheet" I hope you changed the markups.
I don't know how much you know about Excel. I think I use about 5% of what it can do. I know you want to learn and improve so I will show you things that maybe you already know.
To change the markup on Materials click on that cell D27 and the formula will show up at the top of the page it reads D26*1.17, or Total Mat x 10% markup and 7% sales tax. Just replace the 1.17 with 1.37 and you have 30% markup and 7% tax.
You can insert columns or rows. With a cell highlighted, click on insert it then gives you options of rows or columns. If you highlight 5 rows and, insert rows it will insert 5 rows.
That brings up using fill. After inserting rows now you have blank cells in the middle.
Say I insert rows at 10. Go to row 9 were the formulat still exists, in the bottom right hand corner of the cell is a square, click on that and drag down the formula in that cell will transfer down.
In the hourly wage if you click down then 77 will fill all those cells. If you are on the materials side where the formula reads B4*C4 the following cells will fill ptogressively like B5*C5, then B6*C6.
Well I have go pheasant hunting.
Rich
Phil
I figured out how to resize pictures for dail up. I got free software from Google called Picasa.
Here is my house, my front staircase and living room project.
Staircase restoration was done 4-5 years ago. Living room was done last March. In the next post I wll post some completed Living room pictures.
Rich
Phil
Here some finished pictures of our living room ceiling.
I hope you enjoy them.
I was replying to another thread and it caused me to go back through How do you speed up estimating. There was some good stuff in there.
Rich
Hey Rich...it's been a long time....I've been thinking about you ...I was cybershy when I first came to this forum but thanks to folks like yourself, I got over it. I have highspeed now so I can look at your pictures.Anyway, I'm just recently back from...a sabbatical...I didn't go any where and no one would really know but I took time to try to move to a better place, mentally. Lift things up if you know what I mean. One of my old gurus used to say-"It ain't easy being folks" and sometimes we have stuff to work out.I was thinking I hadn't been enlightened by my sabbatical...as I was dragging my sorry #### around taking care of the horses while my family is off on holidays in southern Ontario. That's when I realized one of our major accomplishments as a family: in our "spare time and with spare money", we managed to cobble together a farm, rough as it is, and my 2 daughter's dream is to turn it into an equestrian breeding and training facility.So that helps me understand things-like why other folks have motorcycles and planes and even nice kitchen cabinets and I'm out stringing wire to keep the damn horses in!Back to estimating and all! I was recently talking to a carpenter friend of mine who lent me wire and insulators for the horse fence(see I'm coming full circle with this) and I said "hey do you have 5 minutes and I'll show you a few things about excel". Before long we're looking at estimates in colour that cargin taught me how to do. I sent "Frank" some of the estimate templates you shared with me and he emailed me today and said he liked the way he could try different mark-ups. Tonight I emailed him a link to this thread and
I thought I would post new and bring it back to the main board. It's a
great thread and I need to re-read it...maybe share some of my latest
estimates...I know my business has greatly benefited from the wisdom I have gained throughout Break Time and I thank-you for your help in speeding up my estimates...mission accomplished...but the process continues... Best regards to you and your family!
Phil
Phil
Good to hear from you again. Heck I thought you went over to JLC and never came back. There have been some funny BT vs JLC threads lately. Look up panty raid.
I really enjoyed our online friendship but I understand when you have to get away to get your head on straight. I just got the email from you tonight. I never did get an e-mail about a post to How to Speed Up Estimating. But then our main computer had a problem for about a week where I didn't get e-mails.
My wife's laptop got them but I didn't always check them.
We have been doing a large garage project for the last couple of weeks out of town so I have been pretty focused on work. I have a backlog of jobs to look at. When you leave town at 7 AM and are home by 5:30 or 6, then I had a problem at one of the rentals requiring some evening work. I just pop into BT to read the headlines and that's it. I usually look at work right after lunch. Rarely in the evening.
It's been tough to get threads going about estimating and working with excel. Folks just aren't interested.
I am glad you got some good out of the templates and so did Frank. The templates are pretty simple tools for us one man bands to use with estimating.
Are your girls back in the states now?
That's when I realized one of our major accomplishments as a family: in our "spare time and with spare money", we managed to cobble together a farm, rough as it is, and my 2 daughter's dream is to turn it into an equestrian breeding and training facility.
So that helps me understand things-like why other folks have motorcycles and planes and even nice kitchen cabinets (you should see my falling apart 1950's plywood cabinets and our 5' of counterspace)and I'm out stringing wire to keep the damn horses in!
I look back at what I have accomplished sometimes, and I wonder " You worked your tail off and this is all you have?" But then the house is paid for, my wife loves me my kids are respected everywhere for what great individuals they have become, I get to work with 2 of them everyday and I have a customer base that thinks I do excellent work.
But I am tired. Today I was out of gas by 3 PM. Last couple of hours in the day it was mind over matter to keep things going. The last couple of weeks have been very hot and humid and I sweat like a pig and I am out of gas early.
Starting in April thru all of June we did mostly roofing. Over 200 squares on 7 different roofs. I felt better at the end of the day, than I have felt lately. Roofing is good money.
This will all pass. I have to get better at making the business make money. I'm 52 and I only have a few years left to get some money saved for retirement. With Tim (and me working as a tradesman instead of a businessman) we were lucky just to keep our heads above water much less save any money for the distant future.
I have a small IRA and some rental property but they both need to be expanded. I used to work till 10PM (regular day and then work on the house or a rental at night) but I don't have the energy anymore.
By retirement I mean work 8 hour days, go fishing more, do missions trips or Katrina cleanup type stuff.
I've rambled on long enough. Cheap therapy. This thread and other were good for me to change my mindset about the business. I look forward to more.
Really good to hear from you again.
Rich
Phil
I did a thread to myself. Really out of 70 posts all bu about 10 of them were mine.
Basswood did a tutorial on door hanging.
I thought I should teach fellow BTers to use Excel.
So I did a thread on step by step setting up a estimating template with attachments on nearly every post to show people some of the tools in excel.
You can view it at http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=104183.1
Another thread I enjoyed was by Willie Wonka on Not being very Profitable
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=104492.1
Rich