Looking for some info to compare with. Assume you are framing typical walls… 8 or 9 feet, 2×4 or 2×6, typical doors and windows, sawn headers, laying flat on the subfloor, nailing the sheathing on before raising but not adding windows, wrap, etc. Some time spent troubleshooting plans, moving lumber around, talking to the owner or the contractor, tuning the radio, replacing the string in your chalkline, etc. I know this isn’t real specific, and site conditions can vary hugely, but throw something out there anyway… LF per manhour, LF per day, whatever ya got.
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I'm slow on the first one... if there are 4 more like it then i'm pretty fast on those... I think i'm always slow... but my stuff is always plumb, level & square and blocked and ready for drywall when i walk away from it the first time... I'll always walk back past & study it for a second make'n sure there everything will go smooth 3 steps down the line...
weird sometimes for no real reason some frame'n seems to take forever... then the next 3 hours seems like i did more than the 6 hours before that... all in all I think i'm half as fast as a really good framer I think i think too much...
I've seen guys frame a 2500sf house in a day... or so it seemed... took 2 -3 more days to finish frame'n the house they framed in a day...
p
Ponyti, I can say the same thing. I don't need to do four to make big gains...I usually start saving big on the second house.
blue
This is a thread I'd like to see do well, but I have my doubts.
I'm so bored and slow now, I don't think I could muster enough energy to frame a 2500 sf house in a month. Thank goodness for employees!
The problem with a thread like this is the variables. I remember putting up 1500 sf osb rances in 80 hours. I've did 1500 sf ranches in 600 hours.
I've tracked some numbers doing the panelization, but I never retain them. I just kinda look at them at the moment to see if there's anything special or interesting, then I toss the list into the scrap pile. Keeping accurate numbers has always been a bore/chore to me.
I'll check with Frank. He's a lot more interested in keeping track of our hours and he actually does a pretty decent job with that aspect of the ballgame.
blue
I've worked with both the worst framers in the world, as well as some of the best.
The best, always make it look easy, while the worst can make easy painful.
I tried to retain and continue to implement as much of what I learned from "the best" into my current practices.
I don't do a lot of large scale framing anymore, but when I do, it seems to run pretty smoothly.
Layout and prefabbing make the actual framing run faster and smoother by tenfold.
After spending a solid day snapping lines, taking measurement, cutting jack studs, cripples, etc., building headers and making all other necessary preperations, I would expect to be able to stand all the exterior and interior walls of a typical one story 40 x 40 and set the joists and deck the second story the following day. So....with a four man crew (myself being one of the four), two days per floor. 64 man hours to frame 320 LF of walls and 1600 sq. ft. of deck?
I am however including popping the windows in prior to standing walls.
Its likely however, that the second story would take a bit longer.
Like I said.....I don't do a ton of these any longer....but that would be my expectation. Hope it helps.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
One more variable to throw into the mix is the cohesion of the team.
One bad even helper on a team can throw off the whole rythm. I only mention this 'cause the last crew I was on had one guy with an angry, bad attitude. Made everyone around him have an angry, bad attitude and nothing went smooth.
About half way through, Mr. bad attitude stops showing up 'cause he land himself in jail. From that point on, everthing started racing and everybody on the crew were happy (& productive) campers. What was interesting and very instructive is that the guy worked and got stuff done so his attitude was tolerated but it was virtually impossible to see how disruptive the guy really was to the rest of the crew until he was gone.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Iam not sure anyone really answered your question. Here"s a shot. Iam Not that fast but if the lines are snapped and headers are built, two of us with a laborer can do around 50 or 60 Lf a day.That's lay out plates, nail bottom to deck, cut jacks and cripples, nail corners together, assemble wall, cut out windows, double top plate where possible, paper, and stand wall.
The guys that framed our project in Western Wash raised 3-4 walls per day. that was with one "journeyman", one assistant and one lackey. Some of the walls were 10', some wer 12-16' some were 8'. All this in an 8 hr day andf alot of cigarette breaks. This included exterior sheeting not installed squared.
Don't get me started...
Any of those three have an angry bad attitude? All three? ;-)
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
migraine, don't forget that framing in a seismic zone requires many more hold downs and seismic considerations can add a lot of time to a job. Some of the responses here are coming from geographic areas where hardly any simpson hardware is used compared to your area.
Something girlbuilder said kinda reminded me of a big pet peeve of mine.
Why is it that the #1 question asked of framers is "how fast are ya?". We have threads here all the time about it. Why is that the most important question we can come up with for framers?
Now I understand that it is important to get a shell up in a timely manner. The ultimate goal being to get that loan converted, get that thing sold, or get somebody moved in. But we're all racing against the same clock, aren't we? Sure you can't get your mechanicals in until I get the frame up. But your board and plasters guys can't get in either. Neither can your painters or trim carps.
So how come nobody ever starts a thread about "How fast can you rough in the plumbing on a 3000 sq ft home?". Or how fast can you finish up a stair run? Or many feet of wire and you pull per hour? How long's it take you paint a 12x12 room?
The reason it bugs me, is because I think it refects poorly on our trade in some ways. I think it sheds a light on framing that makes it look like it's nothing more than grunt work. And the harder you grunt, the better a framer you must be. It's so contradictory to what framing is really about. One of things I love about framing is that I think it's a skill that takes both brains and brawn. You gotta be able to not only figure that sucker out, but lift it up to it's proper place as well... without the benefit of shelter from the elements.
Sorry for the side bar. I guess it's just a little rant. But nothing makes me sicker then answering the phone for what I think is a potential new contact and having them really only want me to answer two questions. How much per sqft? And how fast? There's just so much more to it than that.
It's this mentality that keeps the pricing as low as it is.
Carry on. :)View Image
This post is EXACTLY why I got out of production framing for large builders. I agree with you totally.
When I was at the peak of my framing years (did it exclusively for 2 1/2 years) I ran 2 crews...one crew was very fast but had low quality. the other was much slower, but put up a much better product. We got paid the same for each crew. Crew #2 took anywhere from 2-5 days to frame a home longer than crew 2.
What really pushed me over the edge was bidding on several jobs in a large development. The Site Super gave me the plans, a price he was paying for each house, and a time sheet dictating the progress that HAD to be made...ok, big development, needs to keep a schedule, I understand...(didn't get the job)
Bid on a couple of houses for a guy a bit later who built 4-5 semi-customs a year and was looking for a framer...got the contract and did the first 2 houses in what I felt was good time. He was pleased with our work, but noted several times how his former crew framed up about the same house in 2 fewer days and wanted to know if I could 'pick up the pace"...thankfully shortly after this 2 of my guys quit and allowed me to downsize to where I am today...basically a one man remodeling show.
You do have a legit gripe about the framers...EVERYTHING is their fault. I think this is due to the fact that they are first on the job and it's just easier to pin the blame on them...
sorry for the hijack...just wanted to let Diesel know I feel his pain...knowledge without experience is just information.... Mark Twain
http://www.cobrajem.com
I'm the fastest sprinter on the jobsite, although Jasen says I cheated. He beat me to the honeybucket the other day, but he cheated, so I guess we are even :-)
A couple of years ago, we pulled out the 200' tape and marked out 50 yards and raced down the street. Don't know what the neighbors thought. It was Jasen, me, Maverick and Dave (early 40's) I beat Jasen by a step, but he says I jumped the line. I'm training for another race :-)
Matt's got bad knees so he doesn't race but he's good in a snowball fight. Funny story, when he first started framing/siding with us, Jasen and I were up in the platform putting on Hardishakes. It had snowed, but really only stuck to the roof. Jasen builds this medicine ball sized snowball and hucks it at Matt, he looks up, sees this thing coming and literally dives out of the way. Snowball hits his workstation and explodes it. We about died laughing.
Then last spring, someone brought us donuts and we ate about 1/2 of them. They got pretty hard after being on the job for a couple of days. Matt's coming out of the cube van and Jasen throws it from across the job right as Matt starts to say something WHAM! right in his cheek and it explodes. I thought I was going to vomit I was laughing so hard!!
Anway, we regularly have contests so I can see why framers have such a rep :-)
Great responses to this thread. Thanks to everyone!
My conclusion is that I'm about the same as those of you who do not frame daily. Tim and Brian are way fast and I could never match that. Of course, you cats have seasoned 4-man crews and forklifts. Hard to beat.
Recently I did two different wall framing jobs.
On one I built 64 LF of 2x6 x 9' wall, panelized in (4) 16' sections. Lumber and plywood sitting right there. The first one was slow because I had to build and square it on a gravel surface, but the rest were built on top of the first and I got all 4 done in about 12 hours. About 5 LF per hour, working alone and completely pre-planned--no questions about layout or head-scratching to deal with.
The other I'm doing with a guy who recently signed up. We joisted and got a deck down, and about 75 LF of 2x6 x 8' wall up in 60 hours. That includes moving stuff to the job, dealing with the owner's changes to the plans that are not in writing, figuring out where to plug in, etc. On this one the deck took quite a while, with girders and hangers galore, some concrete issues to deal with, and some strange details to execute--it's an addition with difficult tie-in.
As far as what Mike said about framing subs, there's hardly such a thing here. No market to support that, although there is maybe one guy you could call who does mediocre work. I'm gradually moving into do-my-own concrete and framing mode, since it's the only way I can see to get what I need.
Edited 3/18/2006 2:03 am by davidmeiland
Just got into this thread Great topic!
I'm on the west coast and framing has changed 1000% from 15 years ago.
We have more hardware and bolts these days than 2x6's so it has changed to the point that we can't just frame and stand walls anymore. And I do mean by installing the hardware correctly!!!
I frame large customs up to 6000' and it dosen't go very fast because of many reasons....
Hardware, Crew "these days", complexity and I'm very picky!!!
I don't consider myself a framer in the terms that it's not the only thing we do. Until recently I always did my own concrete which gave me great control of how clean the frame goes up.
We do siding, windows & doors, decks and the finish if it works out that way.I get alot of complements from cabinet guys, tile guys and of all people drywallers on how square and plumb things are and I pride myself on that.
Before hardware and nail guns we use to build a simple 1200 sf house. Foundation, frame,windows, exterior doors, siding trim, roof and exterior decks...8x16and 4x24 with rails. Start to finsh in 5 weeks.
Ah....the good old days with 8' walls!
Howie
And one time, at band camp......View Image
The real question is how good of a pour am I going to get on the foundation. If its a good pour level,sqaure and plumb then have a stack of change orders ready cause this house is going to fall out of the sky and the homeowners always want to change something. If the pour is terrible then it's going to be a little longer to help finish their job that they couldn't do.You're entitled to sh!t.---Tony Soprano
>> Why is it that the #1 question asked of framers is "how fast are ya?". We have threads here all the time about it. Why is that the most important question we can come up with for framers? <<
I don't ask that. More typically I would ask "how many people are on your crew". In your case, I'd estimate the Lull might = 2 guys. Although, generally most framers I use I have used before, so there is less of a variable, but I still ask "how many" because crews change over time.
For me, asking such questions, has more to do with scheduling follow up subs like plumber, elect and HVAC. The actual speed of an individual crew is not so important (within reason) as is keeping the job flowing.
IMO Brian, I think the reason the subject of framing speed comes up here at BT is simply because there are more carpenter types here than anything else - than say electricians or plumbers - and it's more just a case of guys talking about what they are familiar with. It's not a slam on framers, and I haven't noticed it coming up all that often. Also, I think you tend focus on framing related issues for obvious reasons.
All: As far as the loan interest, etc, here's a # for you. I'm in the finish up stages of a 50,000 sq ft apartment complex. My job is to take it from drywall to finish, based on the fact that another super quit. In order to get the grading/utility/etc contractor motivated I calculated out the loan interest and lost rent last week and came up with ~$8400 a week! Again though, I'm in the last 20% of the time schedule right now. That's a pretty big number to me though....
BTW - on this project I've had 3 - 6 electricians there trimming out for 8 weeks solid. They haven't even started on the last of the 7 buildings...
Matt,
We don't install the siding. By exterior trim, I meant bumped out rakes with pine soffits and shadow or crown. Corner boards, water table, frieze boards, soffit, fascia, queen anne cornice returns. That's the stuff I meant by exterior trim.
Also, I wasn't complaining about threads Matt. I was using the threads on Breaktime to illustrate the point that people associate speed with good framing. I don't think anyone was "slamming" framers in this thread and I really hope nobody thought that was what I was saying.
I just think it odd that framers get pushed for speed the most out of all the subs, which I think is odd because any one of the subs can throw off the schedule. The framer can't really do any more damage to a schedule than anyone else can. Yet, quite often, "how fast" is still second only to "how much" when the phone rings.
You'd think more people would be concerned with getting a quality job instead of just a fast job, considering how miserable a poor frame can make things for every other sub that comes through.View Image
>> We don't install the siding. By exterior trim, I meant bumped out rakes with pine soffits and shadow or crown. Corner boards, water table, frieze boards, soffit, fascia, queen anne cornice returns. That's the stuff I meant by exterior trim. << Now we are really into regional differences... That would never happen here. Siding guy would do all that. Even if it is a brick veneer house. Makes sense though. Have the more complex stuff done by the more skilled carpenters, and get some other types to just hang the siding itself - which is more just time consuming repitious work. Hope I'm reading your correctly.
The framer can't really do any more damage to a schedule than anyone else can.
I don't agree with that statement.
I've seen framers drage out three week jobs for three months. Once the frame starts, it's hard to switch framers.
blue
I still respectfully disagree Blue. Why is it harder to replace a framer than any other sub? I've completed two jobs in the last two years where a previous framer was 'removed'. Once because he only showed up about three days a week, and once where the framer was clearly in over his head.
I think any sub can screw up a schedule just as well as the next guy. I've seen jobs held up two weeks or more by a plumber who promised "we'll be there tomorrow" for two weeks straight.
If you allow them to, any sub can drag out a project for as long as the next guy. Is it harder to fire a framer than a painter?
Maybe I'm just not understanding something.View Image
Is it harder to fire a framer than a painter?
View ImageStop, drop, shut 'em down, open up shop.
LOL..... I'm blushing.View Image
Diesel, by the time a builder figures out that the framer isn't any good and needs to be replaced, there usually is a lot of re-framing to be done and a ton of time already wasted. The builder might be three or four weeks into a job. If he has to find a replacement, do you think that there will be carpenter crew standing out on the street ready to go in?
I've turned down about ten or fifteen requests to work behind another crew. Its not easy to find a carpenter that will willingly pull out his sawzall and nailpuller to fix another hack's work.
When you couple that idea with the fact that the rough frame is the starting point for quite a few other trades and suppliers, it quickly becomes evident that our particular phase is more time sensitive than the others.
Here in Mi, a lot starts happening after the frame: electrical, hvac, plumbing, roofing, concrete, masonry, cabinet measuring and fabrication....to name a few. All of these hinge on the timely completion of the frame.
How many days are actually lost if the plumber decides to stall his work a week. All the other things are still happening. Halfway through that week, the super will send in another plumber and two days later the job will be ready for inspection.
Lets look at the ramnifications if the mechanical trades are all slowpokes and take fifty percent more time on everey job. Since most roughs take two days, the total sum added for all three trades equals three days. I've seen carpenters waste three days in only two!
You are fighting an uphill battle to convince anyone that the framing isn't more critical to timing a job than the other trades. You're simply not facing reality. The masons could take ten weeks instead of their two and they wouldn't change the closing date one iota. The concrete finishers could stall their driveway for a month and that wouldn't change the closing date.
Framing speed is just as important as their quality. We are faced with the added task of balancing quantity and quality, all while doing a very tough job. That's why we get paid so little!
blue
Point taken. Admittedly, I was stretching a bit to illustrate my point. It just frustrates me sometimes when I see speed being referenced as the most important trait a framing crew can have. I like to think equal parts speed, quality, and value are what makes up a framing crew to be proud of.
Damm Blue.... you and me don't see eye to eye on much now do we?
View Image
Edited 3/18/2006 11:31 pm ET by dieselpig
Damm Blue.... you and me don't see eye to eye on much now do we?
Sorry, I'm a contrarian.
Actually I've wailed about that same thing, but in my later years had to face up to the reality. I used to think that a higher polished rough frame crew should be more desireable than an average fast one. I know that's not true anymore.
You'e trying to rationalize your emotions because you work with small crew. That's human nature. You have to practice selling yourself and you do a great job of that. Maybe some day, you'll shed the shackles of control and allow your framing crew to expand. Then, you'll be selling your speed and your quality. You might not make more money, but the builders will love you even more than they do now.
Lets face it: builders love larger framing crews. That's why they love the illegals!
blue
"Lets face it: builders love larger framing crews. That's why they love the illegals!'I've seen the work of some contractors who hire a herd of cheap labor, no matter where they come from. Just down the street from me a homeowner hired a roofing crew for a small 12/12 gable roof victorian. Six men on ropes crawled on that roof and made short work of the job, but they STAPLED 15 lb. paper right to the old boards, ripped the lead flash off the chimney and then slapped on the old 3-tabs, curling them right up the old chimney as a flash. Not my idea of a proper roofing job. There was evident serious rot around the chimney and they just covered and went on. Bad, bad. But people get what they pay for.As for framing, management also is an issue. Managing a large crew becomes more difficult and quality control can become problematic unless all are on the same page. I am using a crew of four guys to do a two-story/garage addition and they all are sole proprietors, self insured. I got a quote about the same from another guy who had a crew of four and they were all employees and covered by comp, but I'd suspect the loyalty and uniformity would be higher among a group of well trained individuals used to working with eachother, wanted to use them first, but our schedules didn't mesh.When I first started out we framed for a small company for $5/6 a square foot. We were average speed, but then it was only the two of us and sometimes a helper/learner, so even if we hired more, that would stretch the dollar out so I don't think the gain would've been that much. $5/6 a square foot is a pittance, I learned that.
$5/6 a square foot is a pittance, I learned that.
If only that were true. Around here, after finally driving prices up off of $2.50 a ft, along come the vanloads of Ill-Eagles that follow Pulte and Ryan and the others, and suddenly $2.50 is a good price again.
Robert, where is "here"? It kills me to hear stuff like that.View Image
Just west of Allentown P.A.
Just took a ride. It's Sunday Afternoon and crews are working like dogs everywhere.
I have a cousin up your way. He came down in November when my father was in the Hospital to visit. We talked over lunch and I was in shock at soem of the prices he's getting in Mass.
I forget what the exact $ figure he gave me for framing, but I remember thinking you could actually feed your kids on that.
robert... i'd agree that a lot of new housing is dog shid
but think what that does for existing housing... i'd talk your wife into looking in established neighborhoods at older homes
this exclusionary rule currently in effect is a big thing to plan around
if you own & live in your home for 2 years of the previous 5 , you can sell the house and not pay any capital gains on the first $250 K for you and $250k for your wife ( $500K total ) ... and you can keep doing it , over and over
so, one strategy is to keep moving up until you are ready in your life , to downsize... then pull the equity out without capital gains
that equity could be the college tuition money you'll be needing.. or the two weddings you'll be footing.. or your retirement nest egg
theoretically (?) you can buy a new home every two years , and IF it appreciates ( or you increase the value thru sweat-equity ) you can pull out $500K every two years (theoretically ) Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Do you have Berks Homes down that way? They just bought land up here for a developement. Just wondered what they're like. I have 4 sets of prints on my desk from them. Don't look like vey attractive houses.Greg
Berks is around but I've not done anything for them. Haven't been in one either.
I would bet on cheap. Lots of Mennonite and Amish crews around their neck of the woods.
A friend of mine is one of the Commercial Lenders for Sovreign in State College. He lives in Jersey Shore. He tells me you guys are booming right now.
It feels like we've been booming here for a while now. The builder I do the most for has a goal of 280 houses this year. They did 240 last year. I have the price list for Berk's and its $3.28sqft +extras. That puts them at the top edge of the average price here. We also have alot of Amish & Mennonite here but they do it fast and sloppy and people like us that actually do a good frame, although time wise takes a little longer, are slowing winning back the builders.Greg
Porches, Hips, Vaulted Ceilings.............................. What else counts as an Extra?
steep roof pitch, rev. gables, bird box returns, ice&water shield, hips, valleys, tray cielings, vaulted cielings, skylight, arches, pocket drs, fireplaces, chases, any basement walls, tub platforms, fypon trim, dormers,
This is just the tip of the iceburg. "my" builder has about 3 pages of extras, just depends on the plan. Berk's seems to have 5 pages.Greg
Thats how Strauser was. you had to give them a price for each extra and a code for it. Then you billed 2200 sqft plus 2 x1's and 1 x5 and 2 x3's. Made it easy kindda but at $3 per for the basic and framing off of a plan that looked like it was drawn on a cocktail napkin made it tough.
What do you do to keep the speed up and the money flowing?
Three men that always know what needs done and get it done.Greg
I hate to say it but I'm in State College PA, had my framing crew for almost 10yrs now, and the most I've ever gotten was $6.50sqft. That was townhouses 4 years ago. Worst builder I've ever framed for. Average single family prices are $2.20-3.80 sqft. Greg
Greg,
Without being to specific, are framing prices going up or down in your area and what are you averaging for a basic Single family box?
Prices seem to be going up slightly this year. Average 2.80sqft + extras.Greg
>> The framer can't really do any more damage to a schedule than anyone else can.
I don't agree with that statement. <<
Right - with some subs like grading siding, roofing, plumbing, elect, HVAC, cabinets, etc, sequencing can be changed - I mean if my plumber can't be there for a month I can always call him up and say "I'm gonna have to let the HVAC and elect go first..." Or, I can get the cabinets in after trim if necessary. No such deal with footers, bricklayer, framers and some others. Maybe 1/2 the trades are critical path and 1/2 have some flex.
On a similar note though, generally I don't get too hung up on how long a trade takes, just so there is progress being made.
Matt, your cost of money calculation is an important detail that is lost on my subcontractors, but always in the minds of the money men behind the scenes.
The better subcontractors exploit that calculation by highlighting their ability to perform in a consistent manner. I don't blame them, it makes good business sense.
Unfortunatly for small subs that prefer to work with smaller numbers of guys, this leaves them out of the equation when bidding against the larger crews.
Oh well, that's business...we can either expand or suffer the consequences. I prefer to suffer...
blue
How many of your frames sit for a few weeks after you finish them?
Builders/GC's always seem to be rushing subs for no reason. I'll get a phone call saying, "when are you going to be done? This job needs done ASAP, I want to have the carpet in next week." So I get it done with the quickness, and the dam house sits there for a month, with no carpet, waiting for the Queen's blessing.
Hurry up, and wait.Stop, drop, shut 'em down, open up shop.
>> How many of your frames sit for a few weeks after you finish them? <<
Why do you think that happens? Maybe because the builder had no handle on when the frame would be done so he could give his plumber/elect/hvac adequate notice?
>> I'll get a phone call saying, "when are you going to be done? This job needs done ASAP, I want to have the carpet in next week." So I get it done with the quickness, and the dam house sits there for a month, with no carpet, waiting for the Queen's blessing. <<
Why do you think that is? Do you not think the guy wants the house complete ASAP? I'll make a few guesses: final "queen's blessing" inspection failed and builder doesn't want the carpet in until the <insert another odd problem here> gets resolved so that the carpet doesn't get messed up. Or how about, HO and the designer can't seem to select carpet color and some accent paint colors because it doesn't "go with her couch". Or, how about potential home buyer has put in an offer to purchase contingent on being able to select certain interior finishes and hageling over price takes that long...
BTW - if you don't mind me asking, what is your trade? I'm thinking interior trim?
Matt... take your own advice that you gave me and don't take it personal. ;)View Image
Matt-what is your trade? I'm thinking interior trim?
Pretty much.
Matt-I'll make a few guesses: final "queen's blessing" inspection failed and builder doesn't want the carpet in until the <insert another odd problem here> gets resolved so that the carpet doesn't get messed up. Or how about, HO and the designer can't seem to select carpet color and some accent paint colors because it doesn't "go with her couch". Or, how about potential home buyer has put in an offer to purchase contingent on being able to select certain interior finishes and hageling over price takes that long...
All valid points.
All that I ask for is some common courtesy. Don't lie to me like I'm some 2 year old, don't call me 2 days before you need me, don't give me a BS "deadline"(i.e. carpet install) just because you dreamed up some estimate of how long my job should take.
I'll give you my best estimate of a time line, and we can work out a compromise if our time lines don't mesh.
Stop, drop, shut 'em down, open up shop.
Edited 3/18/2006 8:47 am ET by dustinf
Edited 3/18/2006 9:00 am ET by dustinf
Dustin:
I have only 1 sub that could ever "service" a 2 day notice - flooring - and it's that big of a company. Even then I give a 1 weeks heads up, so they can get the stuff in stock, and then a call 2 to 3 days ahead. To me for all my other subs, 2 weeks notice is minimal and 3 or 4 weeks is when I make the "hey I'm gonna need you in several weeks" call. One nice thing about working with the same subs is that you get a good handle on their availability - as changeable as it might be. Generally, the longer a particular type of job takes, the more notice is required. Framing is definitely one of the longer processes. Extensive trim outs can take a while too.
I'm not a builder - I'm a superintendent, however I have managed the construction of a number of houses that "the builder", my boss man, has never been in, so to me it's pretty similar except that I don't put out the money, don't take the risks, and never make a pile of money... Anyway.... as a builder/super/whatever unfortunately everything has to be ASAP... unless there is no schedule (slap me I must be dreaming), although I definitely avoid using the ASAP term. I've learned to never say "I'm not in a hurry" though- bad move... There is an art to talking to someone to try to get a schedule pinned down without being pushy. The idea though is to maybe get something quickly to make up for the xxx who you needed with only 2 weeks notice and then showed up 3 weeks after the 2 weeks were up - and even that is OK if the guy just says up front - it's gonna be 5 weeks - that allows me to make a decision.
As far as a builder/whatever calling you on the phone and asking when you are gonna be done?.... whats up with that? - is he too lazy to go out to the site, or is it that he doesn't want to get mud on the tires of his Lexus? My tactic is to talk to the guy about how the job is going, hows the kits, blah, blah , blah and then work in the "what are we looking like for a finish date" question without being too long winded and keeping someone from doing their job.
Matt, I think I would like you for a superintendent.
You sound like you get around often enough to know what's going on, but still ask in a non-pushy manner to verify what you probably already know. If you also give the framers some slack on the completion date, instead of ordering everything to arrive the morning after the tentative completion date, I might just send you a few milkbones.
Common sense has to prevail, but it rarely does.
blue
You got that right dude. How quickly they forget too.
I'm been getting "two week-ed" to death for the past two weeks and it just happened again yesterday. All the while I was working on my last frame, the builder was pushing us along because he had another one he 'needed' to get up. No problem. Except they hit water while digging the foundation and things need to be re-engineered. I understand.
So when do you think it'll be ready then? About a week after I finish working on the current one is the answer I get. No problem I say, we can kill a week. And we do. Then it becomes two weeks until it'll be ready. No problem I say.... I lined up a miserable demo job on a 106 yr old house to fill the week. Guess what.... he tells me yesterday that he still needs two more weeks (and we're supposed to start Mon morning after what has already been two weeks of delays). Now he's pushing into other work I have on the books. So now I've got to fill an empty upcoming week (at least JLC-Live is Thurs and Friday) and I've got an addition to start the following week.
But sooner or later, he'll be ready and I'll do that job. Once we get the sills down I guarantee his memory will lapse and he'll be all over me again. "When you gonna be done?".
And you're right. Once I'm done it'll probably sit there for another week and a half until the plumber clears up his screwed up schedule too.
Nature of the beast, I guess.View Image
15 years ago I worked at an engineering firm as a field rep. I never saw a GC that could hold his own schedule. They moved it around constantly and then were PO'd that the subs couldn't stay on schedule........the one they constantly moved. DanT
I'll get a phone call saying, "when are you going to be done? This job needs done ASAP, I want to have the carpet in next week." So I get it done with the quickness, and the dam house sits there for a month, with no carpet, waiting for the Queen's blessing.
Man does that hit a nerve with me. When my business was just installing stairs and stair rails I used to get those calls all the time.
" Hey, I know it's short notice but I need that rail in on Thursday because the hardwood guys can only come over the weekend" Which really means " Hey, I swung a hammer for two weeks once and now I'm a job super. I can't schedule to save my life and I'm willing to lie to you and make you feel bad to save my a$$ with the boss. I know I should have called you weeks ago but I was too busy eating bacon cheeseburgers in the job trailer to pay attention to what stage my job was in."
I was three times flat out lied to by the same builder about just such things. On the third I walked off when I saw it was all bull. He couldn't get anyone else to do it because everyone was like six weeks out, so he paid double to learn his lesson. Learn he did. From then on out it was three or four weeks when he would call and schedule.
On top of that, I started giving variable prices. Call me with at least three weeks and it's X. give me two weeks and it's X + Y. Make it one week and it's X + Y + Z.
That's something you can only get away with if your good and it's busy.
Brian, if you even remember posting it, this is in reference to your post #19:
I can't help but to agree with you...
#1 The builder I have been framing for says: "I've got one crew with nine guys that does this house in 6 days." I told him, "Fine, but I'm making more money taking 10 days with 2 guys than he is with 9." That's assuming 3000 SF @ 3.50/SF, $15/hr. avg. pay, and $16 per $100 payroll for WC insurance.
#2 The new builder I'm framing for asked me yesterday during our first meeting (on site w/ the lumber salesman) "How long will it take you to frame this house?" I replied, 10-14 days, assuming worst-case scenario." The lumber salesman says "The LAST guy framed this same plan in 4.5 days."
I, in front of the builder, stated boldly, "And that's why you're calling me." He wasn't very fond of that!
Long story short, even if it takes me twice as long to frame the same house with a short crew, at least I have better control over final quality, and I'm not really LOSING money compared to a 5 or 6 man crew (as opposed to my 2 or 3 man crew). Not to mentioned the house I finished 2 weeks ago still hasn't been roughed-in for plumbing. SO what's the darn rush?
Like Girlbuilder said, since when did the only concern for framers become, "How fast can you get it done?"Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
"Like Girlbuilder said, since when did the only concern for framers become, "How fast can you get it done?"
I hope you guys realize that this absolutely was not the intent of my question. I pride myself on being slower and more expensive than anyone else... just wanted to make sure it wasn't ridiculous.
The addition we're doing right now is maybe 500 SF and my price to frame it works out to a little more than $15/SF. It's for a guy I know pretty well who is a tradesman and not a retired executive, so I'm at the lowest price level I can justify. I suppose for a larger building I could get more efficient and lower the price, but nowhere near the $5-7/SF I hear about.
Ahhh.... no seismic required except Simpson nail on straps on the corners. That in it's self never made sense to me, being that I'm originally from SoCal. (Can you say HD4) Shear panel on all exterior walls. 2x6 construction. Floor system was already laid and walls were already laid out
The point was that the owner of the company was just hiring whomever he could get his hands on and really wasn't concerned about the quality. When you are paying guys around $13, $12, $10 per hour I guess that is what you get.
The problem with that is that he could have paid guys at least twice that amount per hour, gotten at least twice the amount of work done and not had to pay these yahoos to tear stuff out and redo do it.
Reading my original post makes you wonder what kind of info I left out. I'm not just someone who watched and thought that they could/should have been faster. Nor am I saying that I'm a framer or I could do it faster. 10 years ago, I probably could have with just me and my 19 yr old son. I have been working on sites since early 1980's
Dave, I like to play with numbers a lot and see what shakes out. I'm always trying to look at my little company from a new angle to see what's there. So I play around with yearly, weekly, and daily numbers all the time. Most of the equations only involve three things....time, production, and money ... because that's all my business is about as a subcontractor who doesn't supply his own materials.
Best I can tell, the four of us with the forklift, frame about 1000 sqft of completed living space per week on average. That's framed, sheathed, windows/doors, and exterior trim.
It's actually fairly accurate too. Not accurate enough to estimate from, of course, but over the course of the past two years, that's pretty much how it's shaken out. Most of the houses I frame are similar. Not in size, shape or appearance, but where it matters from a framing standpoint. The roofs are of similar complexity, the exterior trim packages are usually fairly similar, and the houses themselves average about the same number of corners per square foot. I've also noticed that once a single family house gets up around 3500 sqft, I need more time to complete it, about another 1/2+ week per 1000 sqft over 3500. Conversely I noticed that condo's and duplexes work in the opposite way. Once I get over 3500 sqft, I can frame about 1250 to 1500 sq ft per week on those projects. Probably due to the repetition.
Strange huh?
Good info. Thanks. DanT
Fast is one thing, well done is another.
I see fast work that isn't so well done and not so fast work that is perfect. We tend to demand quality work, done right the first time rather than crappy work done quickly and not so hot. Shortcutting on nailing, plumbing the walls, making sure your courses on the roof are perfect, taking the time to flash correctly, trimming details all take time and often are considered tedious. Its a matter of priorities I guess.
Then who's talking to the customer? If you are running the company and out there with the hammer too, the customer bugs you and takes your time. Then there's time for planning.
I have come to the conclusion that we can work much more efficiently by subbing our labor and concentrating on running the job and the company ourselves.
We don't allow radios on the jobsite, so anytime spent tuning one doesn't count.
Me and my partner just pulled down a 10' walled garage in three days. We'll have a crew come in and frame up the new with an addition and lots of additional work required by the engineer. Expecting about two weeks or less to get the shell up.
no radios on site? Do you burn books for heat?"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
My partner has worked for 40 plus years in the biziness and most of it in commercial, he is a stickler for OSHA compliance and disallows radios, short pants and the whole nine yards. Its ingrained in him and I am not going to argue with him over that. He's cranky enough for crise sakes, I have to choose my battles with him :)Anyway, his argument about safety rings true to me and anyway to shave off potential pitfalls I'm all for.Hell no, we don't burn books! We burn laborers who don't move fast enough.
radios aren't allowed down there?"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
David,
I haven't sat down and figured the exact numbers, but for this house http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/117112738.jpg we sheathed the floor and built all the walls one 9 hour day. That was 4 guys. Nothing was layed out or cut when we started the day. We've framed that house a few times as a company but as a crew it was the first. We start at 7am and we take 1/2 hour lunch at 11 and I remember the outside walls being done by 1 or a little after. It probably took us an hour to sheathe the floor and snap lines, so it took us about 4-4 1/2 hours to cut packages, layout outside walls and frame them. I think that house is 52' or 54' x 30' at the front. Does that give you any idea?
Here is the house we are working on in a series of pics
Last Friday we framed all the outside and inside walls (including rakewall which was 23' at the middle) and rolled some ceiling joists in one 8 hour day (4 guys) except the garage. You can see here it started to sleet on us right at 3 because we were going to work until 4 :-) http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/133790260.jpg you can see the layout a bit better in this pic http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/133790294.jpg that's me on the walls
Here are some other pics along the way
22' 14" I-joists span the garage and Matt is using a Stihl MS 361 w/28" bar to cut them http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/133790298.jpg Here Matt and Jasen were nailing the rim to the header before it's lifted into place while I sheathe the floor in one section and take pics :-) http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/133790303.jpg
This next pic was taken Wed http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/133790284.jpg we went rakewall crazy on this house. It's right on a street that sees a lot of traffic and we wanted it to show up. It's a spec for my brother's company and we'd like to generate some buzz :-)
Here is a pic of me cutting some rafters with the chainsaw http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/133790276.jpg We started roof framing yesterday. All 12-12 and we got a ton done even though it rained on us :-) http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/133790269.jpg The rafters on the right are all 24' 2x12 and that ridge is way up in the air. I held the rafters to the forklift platform and Matt boomed Jasen and me up. I held them and Jasen nailed them. The front side Matt "hurc'd" them up :-) On the right is a shed dormer that was added when my brother came out. We thought it would add to the room and so after break Matt and I framed the wall and rafters while Jasen and Kyle cut the 24' 2x12s.
Today it was just 3 of us and we worked a half day. Here is the progress after 1 1/2 days on the roof http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/133790266.jpg
We added a shed to the back, or at least framed the walls today and we'll frame the roof on Monday. On one section I'm waiting for 28' 2x12 to be delivered, but we are hoping to make this a 3-3 1/2 day roof weather permitting.
I figure my wall framing this way
exterior walls sheated on the deck before standing 4' per man hour
interior walls 10' per man hour
that is all inclusive of everthing between sub floor and roof framing, except soffits
hope this helpsAn inch too short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
It's guys like you and dieselpig that ran me out of "production" framing....we just couldn't keep up.
I'm always amazed at how well a good framing crew can flow...I always had the guys that wold finish sheeting the floor then stand around and ask.."now what?"
nice pics btw.knowledge without experience is just information.... Mark Twain
http://www.cobrajem.com
I've been framing with Jasen for about 4 years and Matt and Kyle have been hear for 1 year. Matt is just starting to do layout and man that frees me up! I can frame walls instead of laying out :-) I like to work, so when everyone is working (not killing themselves) we all have fun. The neighbor comes over to watch us work and sing all day. He just laughs.
I'll frame out of necessity so my times are based on doing it part time, so to speak.
Unlike framers who look at the plans and start framing shortly after, I usually have the plans in hand for more time to work through the entire build before we start. At least for my pea brain, the extra time makes framing quicker since most questions are worked out well in advance.
So...
As far as 2x6 walls go, given the conditions in your first post, I usually end up with about 40 linear feet of exterior wall per 8 hour day.
What slows me down the most are window rough openings. Architects and framers don't seem to pay as close attention to these as finish carps do so any plans require double checking all assumptions.
Yesterday it took the better part of the day to double check and resize 7 ROs to better fit the actual windows going into the holes on the first floor of our current project. 5 of the 7 window ROs specified in the window/door schedule on the plans weren't correct when compared to the actual windows ordered and delivered. The framing dimensions were also wrong because the windows were shown set too far apart to trim correctly. The side elevation also showed 3 windows set 6" higher than they should have been.
Last week: the basement level only has two windows, but one of the windows was like the lone ranger and looked spars so another was added after a quick consultation with the clients, and those were dropped 8" to allow better finish/trim and to align with the main (egressible) window.
Today, we had a meeting with the client to resolve a mis-sized window issue and ended up designing an extra 18" into the height of 1200 sqft of the second floor to improve the roof line and make a few window and skylight locations work better.
Raising the rear half of the house 18" will then require rebuilding a large existing dormer with a slightly higher profile and modifying soffit/facia on a square turrent, so we added aproximately three weeks of profitable work to the project and it will be much more livable.
Yep, window ROs are what really slow me down. :-)
The second biggest time grabber seems to be meeting the new shear panel specs. (for short wall section caused by lot of big windows!) Our architect specs out four different plans based on the width of the shear panel section. Then, we add a few studs to bolt on the Simpson tie down brackets, drill a few holes down to the foundation, block, block some more, epoxy some threaded rods in the crete, and finally have a proper sheer pannel. Repeat three times for each wall.
The more windows, the more big headers, the more elaborate the shear requirements, the more squash blocks, the more time.
I'm beginning to think that all we really frame are window openings with various widths of filler between.
Cheers
well, dave, as you can see from my thread, depending on who you compare us to, we're either fast or slow.. i'd guess that we're slow
but others say , man, i can't believe you guys are making such good progress..
i'd agree with girlbuilder & charlie the singer... framing is most efficient if you sub it to a GOOD framer, there are a lot of them out there.. we're not a framing crew.. so our numbers don't make any sense..
but we do control the whole job and any mistakes are our own... today our lumber salesman was on site.. we were talking about this and that and the direction of lumber yards and contracting.. he said
"you guys are dinosaurs, no one builds their own frames anymore " and he's right
but , anyways.. suppose we start with a deck.. and no equipment.. on this house 44 x 32, we could have the 4 walls standing and sheathed in more than one and less than 2 days
your lumber salesmen said:
>> "you guys are dinosaurs, no one builds their own frames anymore " <<
I've run the numbers a few times and could never make the $ come out ahead by ordering frames. I can see it for large national builders who are building many of the same, but that's about it. In most cases floors, etc still need to be sticked & sheathed, wall frames need to be adjusted for slight foundation size variance, trussed roofs sheathed, add in a production or delivery delay and you don't save time either. And, you give up the control of building the way you want to. I'd chalk it up to a sales pitch.
Re the original Q of the thread, reading through the posts, I think it's interesting what some people include in framing... One referred to "exterior trim" which I assume means what we call boxing and siding and another insinuated roofing was part of the deal... Regional differences no doubt.
I'd say DP doing 1,000 sq ft a week, including siding is pretty darn fast though. For the crews I hire, medium sized custom (one off) single family homes, I look for about 1,000 sq ft a week including windows, doors, paper on the roof and no exterior finishes - for a complete, punched out, job.
Obviously, crew size effects things a lot too. Typical framing crews around here are 6 - 8.
BTW - I'm gonna go volunteer wall frame at Habitat for Humanity today with some people from my church. Very marginal help, and I haven't been on a framing crew for upwards to 25 years. If we can get 3 exterior walls or 6 interior walls (depending on where the house is at) I'd say we will be doing great. :-)
Edited 3/18/2006 6:47 am ET by Matt
I don't think Mike Smith was talking about ordering his framing all panelized for him. I believe he was taking about keeping the framing inhouse rather than subbing it out.View Image
OK - you are right - I misread him. I think it was the "salesmen" part that got me on the tangent.
Again, I don't ask "how fast" but might more be prone to ask any sub "how long" after he has a good start and a chance to get a good handle on what is going to be involved.
Here is another thought though - framing is one of the most time consuming aspects of building a house. Other trades more typically take days - not weeks. That might be part of the reason...
You got it now Matt. We typically install all the exterior trim. But we don't do siding and I don't like to take on window trim either. It's just not cost effective for either of us (the builder or me) because it requires us to stage places on a house we normally wouldn't, but the sider will be passing by on the way up via his pump jacks.
I don't have a problem at all with builders asking me how long it will take me to finish up a specific project, or at least have it ready for the next trade. How else can he set his schedule, right? I'm in perfect agreement with that. I'm talking in a more general sense with my rant Matt. Like when the phone rings (happened this week) and I hear, "I've got an add-a-level coming up. What are you getting a sq ft for those and how long do you think it'll take you?" That's it. No other information offered, but they expect a price and a time frame that I'll be held to. No way Jose. Now, you've obviously got your sh1t together so you probably think thats ridiculous to ask that of me without seeing the project or at least a set of prints, right? But it happens all the time. I wish I could somehow play you guys some of the voice mails I get.
Also, I think Blue or someone else may have already said it, but walk into any big development and tell them you want to frame for them. They will tell you how much they're paying and how fast you need to complete the frame. How do you run a business when your profit margin and schedule is dictated to you. The point I'm getting at is that in general, the majority of builders don't care about the quality of the product I put out anywhere near as much as how cheap and how fast I can produce it. That's why I have to search so hard to find GCs who are a good match for the business I want to have. Usually its a compromise of sorts but I do run across the occasional perfect fit. Our saving grace is that, for the most part, we can compete, time-wise, with the 'slam 'em up' crews so all I really need to sell is our slightly higher price for, what I believe, is a substantially higher quality product.
I also agree that framing is one of the most time consuming aspects of home building. But the framer is also taking on the largest scope of work too, isn't he? So all that changes is the scale of things. The framer can't really blow your schedule any more than any other sub. The framer may take weeks to complete, but that's because there's weeks worth of work to do. The plumber may take days, but thats because he only has days of work to complete. Catch my drift?
View Image
How's it going! We've chatted a few times and I've got a framing question for you. It's on procedure and a discussion I had with another manager which we had a difference of opinion.
On one of the company's other homes they subbed out the framing to a guy that highers "low wage imported help" if you follow!
The other managers opinion is that even though their not clean framers they get it up way faster than we would. But when talking to some of our guys that go in a pickup behind them, they say that they only tack corners together, no blocking, plates are loose and they have spent three days cleaning up after them. Our guys come back to me and say ," We know why you frame the way you do now!".
I can't stand that way of thinking. "Go back and fix it later".
I've always nailed everything off, put in all the blocking that could, anything possible before moving on leaving less to do later and most important things can't move and twist as easily. "It takes less time to finish it and do it right first" than to go back later.
I don't think anyone here frames the "hack and slap way" but just seeing what you think.
Howie
What you describe is exactly what I spoke to in my first (forgive me for butting in here).I've seen 'quick jobs' all over the place, but what happens to the build after the homeowner sets in? How well is it finished for the other trades? In the litigious age we live in I am very concerned about quality and think that certain minimum standards should be applied to a framing job such as, proper nailing, full corners, square and plumb walls, sheathing placed to the bottom and top of walls as required for proper bracing,etc.Also, maybe I'm naive here, but it seems to me that if I want subs to work for me in the future, I need to respect their needs as well. All jobs have variables involved (sitework issues, material delays), etc. I often find the rush put on us by homeowners, but that is my responsibility to nip that in the bud and control the job on our own terms. Presently we have a frame-up (remodel and new build)ready to go, my partner and I just did the old garage demo ourselves. The framer called and said some of his crew is tied up and may not get onsite as soon as we had hoped. I have to work with that somehow, if it means that my partner and I will begin smaller aspects of the job now to keep things moving along. I don't see the point in busting everyone's chops all the time. Seems counterproductive.Profitability also is effected by delays, but #### happens. That is the difficulty with this business and I would posit, the ability to effectively solve problems and issues to maximize good returns for everyone or at least minimize loss is the job for the G.C. and the judge of an effective one or not. A 'frame-up' around here includes the stick build, house wrap application, roofing and trimming out rakes and eaves and other openings as necessary. Usually we order new windows with trim as the package or if vinyl will be installed, then the trim/metal is part of the vinyl application -- siders' responsibility.Some framers will install the windows and doors (close up the frame), others don't. Cost is figured accordingly.
Several years ago I had some slow time in the winter and went down to a subdivision to fill in and do pick-up framing. The developer said there was 300.00 left to finish the pick-up, I figured if it took me a day or day an a half that would be fine.
It took me three days fixing everything wrong in that house mainly because I couldn't just leave it that way. The biggest mess I saw that I couldn't fix were the rake walls 1" lower than the outside walls and all they did was run a strap over the top plate and onto the rake plates and called it good.
I asked an inspector about it and he said that they can't really say anything about quailty...as long as it was strapped it met code and that was it.
Now days I don't open my tailgate for 300.00!
Howie
Get rid of the radio!