how many loads would you think a mid size excavator could load into dump trucks in 4 hours.
loading conditions are easy. It is structual sand in piles all side by side, on flat grade just offside the road. easy access for dump truck; simply back up and you’re ready to load. truck then drives around block and dumps load, then returns for next load.
Give me your estimates – then I’ll tell you what I got billed for as well as the other details surrounding the situation.
thanks for your responses.
Edited 10/27/2005 1:31 am ET by alrightythen
Replies
What's your definition of mid-size? To me, around here, it's a 12-ton machine with a half-yard bucket. And it depends on the size of the piles, too. Dry sand won't heap up too well on a bucket, as well as a clay soil or topsoil will. If the piles are small and the operator has to clean and scrape to get a bucket full, that takes time. Are we talking a standard tandem, or triaxle? What size is the dump body?
There's a big range there - from loading a 20-yard triaxle with a 7-ton machine, to loading a 6-yard municipal body rig with a Cat 330 and a 60" bucket.
So - figure anywhere from 4 to 12 trucks an hour, but even so, everybody I know charges by the hour, so $60 an hour for the truck and $140 for the machine, $800.
just pay the dude, dont worry about it, still quicker anf cheaper than a shovel
well....there's a little more history then to make it as simple as "just pay the dude"
I'll fill in those details later today or tonight when I get the chance.
Brownbagg, I've been enjoying your posts for years, but that one has to be the all-time best. You rock, man. <G>How fast is my excavator? Oh, about 1.2 mph on flat ground. <G>JonE's answer is good in my opinion.It really depends. If the excavator is top-loading (that is on top of the pile, and set higher than the truck) and there is a big pile of fairly cohesive material that is not wet, you can really move. 20 second cycle times are easy in that situation, and with a good-sized machine you might be waiting on trucks. Even with a small machine (we're talking about a small 8 to 10 ton machine here?) and a .3 to .45 yard bucket I don't see why a person couldn't load a tandem in eight or nine minutes.With a larger machine, like a 320 Cat (about 40,000 pounds) I can load a tandem in about four and a half minutes.BUT--If it's rough terrain and you can't use a loader so a track excavator is the only machine you can work with and you have a small quantity of sandy material that you can't crowd and you are set lower than the truck and more than about 15 degrees off the centerline, well, it's about as much fun as trying to push a piece of chain down a straight line. Or herding cats. Or a goat . . . oh, never mind, you get the idea. <G> If there are a big rocks mixed in and you are trying to not hurt the driver's truck, it can take darn near forever to load the truck.It could easily take you 45 minutes to load a truck in that case. So there is no set formula. Unless there are extraordinary and extenuating circumstances, I really do think that Johnnie is right. Just pay the guy, and if he was not good to work with, don't ever call him again.
loading the sand is very easy it is nice heavy wet sand. I watched it get dug out from my dig, now it got moved back for backfill. the machine at my site was able to pick it up and move it around very easily, and the piles were 12 yard piles ( size of the dump trucks) and there were 24 piles and I took about 1/2 of the piles back for backfill, so absolutely no need for scraping.
as for the machine, I was told the next size up is called a "big" machine. the size I had going was abble to dig out and load about 60 loads in 2 days.
Thanks for the detail, that helps. 24 seperate piles of sand at 12 yards each?With a track excavator?That would be tedious at best. I doubt if the guy is taking advantage of you.
I'll get you more details on the whole story later. The guy on my side thought the job was maybe half the time. as well, the guys partner was surprised when I spoke to him and said I'd just got a bill for 4 hours. ( he also runs a machine and it was his guy that was on my side)
Twelve piles at 12 yards each, figure a 10- or 12- ton machine, half yard bucket. Keep in mind that your operator, unless he's really an expert, is going to have to scrape and shuffle to get the last yard or two of each pile, there will be a lot of half- and quarter-buckets of material at the end of each pile. Also, loading a truck from the ground takes longer than loading a truck from above - visibility issues.
I'd say four hours is probably too much time, that's 20 minutes a pile, just over half a yard a minute. Cycle time shouldn't be much over ten or fifteen seconds, twice that if you're cleaning up the last yard or two of each pile. On most job sites, I rarely see it take more than four or five minutes to load a tandem rig unless the operator takes lunch halfway through.
I don't think 20 minutes a load sounds unreasonable. With one truck, the operator is just sitting there until the truck gets back. It may take the truck a while to get into position to dump. Depends on what the site looked like where he was at.Add in some travel time and maybe cleaning out the truck bed when you're done, and I don't think it's out of line at all.
Ambiguous headline: PROSTITUTES APPEAL TO POPE
"I'll get you more details on the whole story later."
Great just like waiting for the 11:00 o'clock news, and the story your interested in doesn't come on until the very end.
I don't operate heavy equipment all the time but 3-4 hours doesn't sound out of line. Maybe the guy has a one or two hour minimun plus his time spent.
I't always interesting to see someone spent the time to post here and wait for replies and repost just ask him if it seems out of line. But I'm getting ahead you said there was more juicy details at 11.
Jeff
OK...
Please bare with me, this has built up for several months
to start from the top... 1st of all he ( I will call him Joe) is one of the developers of the sudivsion I am building in. he also has 2 partners another guy ( I'll call John) and his wife. although Joe and John are both partners they also both run their own seperate excavating business'.
when I bought my lot joe screwed me in the deal. ( that's a whole other long story) John wasn't involved during the transaction phase but appolgized to me when he later found out what had happened. Joe also gave sort of an appoligy. ( to be fair it wasn't his intention to screw me but, it was basically a costly error, as John's wife normally handles transaction but was away so Joe handled it.
excavation was included in my purchase price. When I was ready for my dig I called Joe and told him I was ready to go. he then told me to call John and get him to dig it out. I'm like ok ( 1st time I heard of John) so I call John up and this dig is news to him. So he says let me get back to you. Long story short Joe promised the dig and it got dumped in Johns lap. But John is a good guy, he says we promised you a dig so you will get one.
John sends his guy ..lets call him Bob to do the dig. he does a great job and I arrange with John to have Bob come back and do the back fill and services, as well as a rock retaining wall.
The sand from my dig got piled around the corner at the end of the block.
Now were at the backfill stage. Joe says to me ( he also has built his house across the street from me) one morning "I'm going to take some of your sand and I'll give you my rocks" he's got some 4' boulders I can use for my retaining wall. I was going to sell the extra sand I didn't use from my backfill, but this was a good trade and saved me from looking for rocks later so I'm like sure, sounds good. few days later I get a call from the sand and gravel company and they got someone who wants my sand, I told him I already traded it.
while Bob was doing my backfill, Joe was over on his machine clearing for the next phase in the subdivision, so while he was there he loaded my sand as well as the extra sand he gave to the lot 2 up from me, for his backfill.
few weeks after I'm done John stops by my site with a bill for a little over 7 g's. told me to look over every thing to make sure it looked right. ( john also took a little off the bill to try to compensate a bit for the screw up in the real estate transaction ) The bill included the excavation time as well as trucking, sump and drain materials, as well as full price for the rock. I had odered some extra rock but was surprised to see that I'd been charged for Joe's rock. John didn't know anything about what Joe had told me so we taked to Joe togther. Joe said "did I say I was giving you the rock"? yeah you did I said. he said he couldn't see how he would have said that as he had paid for the rock himself. well you did say that but I can see that, that is clearly not what you meant, I told him
To me I'm not going to hold a guy to something that he said when it is clear that he said it by mistake. So Joe says he will try and get some money for the sand he gave to the other guy. ( when he said we wanted some of my sand I never asked what he wanted it for.)
That brings us to now...three months later I never got anything for my sand, I did ask once about it, but he still hadn't talked to the guy. So I figure to chalk it up as a write off. Now all of the sudden I get this bill for for 4 hours on the exacavtor-three months later! this guys lives on the same street, I see him all the time, not once did he ever mention that he had a bill coming for me.
my deal was with John, when I got John's bill I believed all was included. As I mentioned in other post I called John and asked him about it. He was surprised about it both for the timing of the bill as well as the 4 hours but he sugested I call Bob and ask him about it since he was the one at my site and was familiar with the material and loading sitiuation. I asked Bob point Blank how long he thought it would have taken him and he figured about 2 hours.
It's hard to pin point the time Joe spent on me because he was doing other stuff as well.
So you maybe one can see why maybe I'm not overly excited to "just pay the dude"
<<So you maybe one can see why maybe I'm not overly excited to "just pay the dude">>Yep, I'd have to agree -- I guess there was more to the story!I apologize here and now if my levity was in bad form at any point in our discussion. It sounds like you are in a bit of a messy situation. I hate to see this happen to anyone.Three months later is a long time, I agree. Perhaps you could talk with him about this, and ask him why a four hour bill three months later? It sounds like a fair question, and maybe he would take it in the spirit that it is intended.As you can probably tell, I am an excavation sub. Despite my best efforts, I do run into differences of opinion with my clients sometimes. I always listen, I always try to see it from their perspective, and I will almost always resolve an honest ambiguity in the client's favor.Unless they are nasty people that I never want to see again. <G>All that having been said, if you cannot get a friendly resolution to this, it's probably cheaper in the long run to pay him, be done with it, and put it behind you. We're talking about a two hour difference of opinion here, it seems. Most excavation subs have a minimum charge, I've never heard of less than two hours minimum, I do work occasionally with people who have a half-day minimum. At the worst you are out a couple hundred bucks, and you will never be fooled again.I've paid for much worse school days than that. <G>While nobody likes feeling like they were taken advantage of, sometimes it's just good business to take the high ground and put it behind you.Good luck.
Thanks Cat for you responses and input. I was already prepared to write off the sand and if I have to eat this too I will. Had I been billed with the other bill as these guys are partners in the developement, I would have reacted differently. or at least received the bill in a reasonable time. In the end If the guy spent the time working for me he deserves to be paid. it's just that the way this guy handles things has cost me alot of money and I have been very forgiving.
I will talk to him and see what he says. If he insists on the full ammount I'll probably just pay it, or maybe ask him to subtract it from the $3,000 deposit they are holding (which is to make sure I build the house to subdivisions specs.)
Edited 10/28/2005 3:01 am ET by alrightythen
I'm kinda surprised that none of you have mentioned "Mobilization Time." Any time I've ever arranged for excavating work, I've been up front charged for it, as a totally separate charge. Usually it was about an hour. To me it was always reasonable to pay it - if some catskinner is gonna drag his machine halfway across the county to do my job, someone has to pay for his time to drag the cat by the tail out there, even if he has to do it the day before so he can start at first light.All that being said, I also got the invoice the next day at the latest.Also, seems to me that the agreement up front was destined to be trouble - too many vague, oral agreements in it that changed w/ time.Sounds like a bad screwup that will fester w/ time & only get worse, not better. Considering that you will be neighbors w/ some of these folks, not a pretty sight.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
this is one of those, " why did you not have a contract in hand"
Brown: Or at least a clear, oral agreement that was executed quickly so memories couldn't fog. Problem w/ oral agreements is that when things change w/ time they get muddied up. Especially when different people get involved. As in this case.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
you are right.
Don, I think you are right on the money with that one.I've been assuming all along that the machine was already in the subdivision. But if that was not the case, then the situation is different.I always charge mobilization. I have to, because as you pointed out, it costs something to do.On my little machines I have a two hour minimum and an hourly charge for moving them. If it's a really small job (almost an errand <G>) and I can leave the yard, git-r-done, and have the machine back on the trailer in two hours, I don't usually charge for transportation.But for a bigger machine, like anything I need to send behind a truck that gets 6 mpg operated by a driver with a CDL on a trailer that costs about a four thousand dollars a year to otherwise sit and do nothing, and cover labor for yard time, warmup, loading, making a mess out of traffic while we try to screw this machine onto the jobsite without tearing up the asphalt, well, you bet, there is a transportation fee and a four hour minimum.I wish more people were as understanding as you -- some actually whine about paying transport. And you are right -- I usually only charge about an hour. It covers the fuel and the driver, that's about it.Besides, I'm thinking the same as you are -- I might not like my neighbor, but it's a whole lot easier if we can get along.
Cat: I learned about mobilization time in Army contracting. It is a reasonable cost to pay. The problem is that most excavators don't make it clear to HO clients & explain why. At least you usually only pay it on one end - delivery to the site. That means, in my book, that most excavators have enough jobs lined up that the client doesn't have to pay on both ends.Personally, I prefer to pay for Mob time, as opposed to having it folded into the hourly rate. Folks also don't realize that there is non-productive maintenance time on site for grease, oil , fuel replenishment, checking bolts, track tightness, & all the crap that goes into keeping the machine running. Someone has to pay for that, also. Either directly, or indirectly.When I had my excavation & grading done several yrs ago, I made it a point to know when work started & finished on a given day & to ask the operator how many hrs he was charging me for. Then when the invoice got there next day there were no surprises. For either of us. This job struck me as having too many hands on the tiller.BTW - when you operate a Bobcat, can we call you "Kittyskinner"?DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
<<BTW - when you operate a Bobcat, can we call you "Kittyskinner"?>>I'm going to be laughing about that all day today. Thanks, Don. <BG>Good post.
Hey! Isn't it about time we both went to work & made a buck for our company?DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Don, it's a good thing you said something this morning. I looked at the clock and said "Oh g0%$@*! or something like that.You guys are good conversation, it's easy to lose track of time.Hey, man, I'm not addicted, I can stop any time I want to . . . <G>So, I was a little late getting a machine off of one site and on to another, but it was worth the laugh this morning.Your friend the part-time kitty-skinner.
Cat: I am sorta retired, but etch glass out of a shop on our property. I don't answer to anyone for time (Except SWMBO). I figured I'd better get to work this AM or I'd never get anything done today.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Cat: Forgot - I have a neighbor who owns a Ford tractor frontloader. He does work in the general area. I get him to do a lot of my work. He charfges a two hr minimum. It kinda irked me at first, but never said anything about it, since I needed the work done, & he did it any day of the week in his spare time. After watching him a couple of jobs, I realized he had to - elsewise he'd have gone broke. He doesn't charge mob time, since he lives about 2 1/2 mi away & just over-the -roads his Ford.The guy is an artist with that thing, so I really get my money's worth.As Brownbagg said - it beats a shovel. And I'm an expert w/ one of those.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
You assumed right.
I paid for mobilization of John's machine. Joe's Machine was already on site. (had been sitting there for months - and is still there.)
- as I mentioned Joe was using the machine for clearing and prepping the subdivsion.
Edited 10/28/2005 11:12 am ET by alrightythen
alrighty...
i'd have a sit-down with both those guys.. are they partners or ain't they?
they ( the partners ) are sitting on $3 of YOUR money..
and 3 months AFTER the event , you get a bill for work you didn't know was taking place on your behalf..
not to mention the cluster -f with the sand / rock swop..
over coffee, tell them you want to settle this on the back of the placemat.. just the 3 of you..
whatever you walk away from with that meeting will be the end of it
what a way to run a railroadMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Wise counsel once again Mike.
Ya know I hadn't thought about sitting down with the two of them (yes they are partners), that's not a bad idea. the one guy John seems to have better ethics.
When Joe built his house he tried to put an outside stair well to his basement, which is against the building scheme of the developement. ( it's there from the district to discourage basement suites which the district is not allowing) anyway, John, made Joe close it up because in his mind they could be telling people that they couldn't have stairs then turn aournd and do it themselves.
ALRIGHTY... sure would like to be a fly on the wall at that meeting..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
lol
My excavator isn't really slow, or terribly fast. He's kinds half-fast.
.
If you have a problem with what you were billed, why not talk to the guy instead of us? It could have been a mistake, or there might have been problems you didn't know about.