How good is Festool Dust Extraction
I’m bidding on a Job that needs to have the doorcasing resanded at the head/leg joint (some misalignment/poor-craftsmanship) and general smoothing out of the nail points (1×4 mdf with a 1/4 round backband). The thing is this City Mainstreet home is an Artist’s home/showcase….EVERYTHING and all the work inside is like a living showcase/art gallery, even the walls are various artist finished and some have precious mineral stones imbedded/protruding. It’s quite impressive just to walk through and you can’t even take-in all the fine points the first time you walk thru, even when trying.
Sorry for going on…I’m very concerned that I not make any headaches for the homeowner or more than necessary WORK for MYSELF. I’m confident I can tune any visual troubles and craftsmanship concerns the homeowner is fretting with….I just want as little dust as possible. I tried Festool’s small random orbital with the #22 extractor and got jazzed that, seemingly, NO dust seemed to be left behind. Impressive…I would be getting the sander/extrator package with an installers tool kit for a complete set-up. I think it will do the job very well, but I’m sure there will be a bit to still vacuum…would appreciate other’s experiences/inputs. Thanks
Edited 4/15/2006 1:36 pm ET by zorrosdens
Edited 4/15/2006 1:46 pm ET by zorrosdens
Edited 4/15/2006 1:50 pm ET by zorrosdens
Edited 4/16/2006 1:05 am ET by zorrosdens
Replies
the ro sander will not get into corners, obviously..
and ANY time the paper extends much beyond the surface being sanded
yr going to get some ambient dust.
that particular setup is the best option you have available, though.
to get the corners i would recommend the fein supercut or multimaster over the festool detail sander. you can get near 100% dust pickup.
as well as the use of all the other fein options.
Fortunately all of the real dust producing sanding is open flat area on 3/4" X 3 1/2" flat mdf casing in this case, so enclosed cornering is not a problem. The issue of sand paper going over the edge of the casing WILL happen often (continually actually)...I was hoping MOST of the "spray" would still be caught by the suction and not spead airially much. How much this will occur is my main concern.
I'll have to look up the Fein and become better acquainted with it.
Would running a spiffy shop air filter REALLY close to the job on top of running the festool/fien vac at the same time help too?
I'm sure it couldn't hurt....I don't have knowledge on those and the money I'm putting into the Festool (of course) is sustantial for me, but it was amasing how it eliminated dust on the try out I did....blew me away.
Isolate the area you are working by tenting with ABS plastic pipe and poly. You will be amazed how much dust is sticking to the poly even after your best efforts to contain the sander. Setting up a shop dust extractor inside the tent will improve things noticably.
Gord
I may be overly optimistic....I have definitely thought of the tenting Idea and I do believe you about plastic "grabbing" the flying dust some. The problem is doorways have two sides (of course) and there are twenty of them...that's a lot of tenting that I'm trying to avoid, possibly in vain if the "system" from Festool does not do well enough. I think I will go back and try "over the edge" sanding at the Festool center in town that I tried. When I went there I did clean the table surface, first, then sanded the heck out of a pine board with 100 grit(and I'm sure I did go over the edges many times) and I found NO dust to my hand going over the board or the table top...at all. To say the least, I was very impressed. I didn't really expect a miracle.....but that seemed to almost be one to me, in a way.
Why do the areas need to be powersanded?
Speed?
Power sanding creates a superfluous amount of dust, whereas the dust from initial hand scraping/ sanding with heavy to fine grits would be easier to contain.
Have you tried hooking a shopvac to the dustport of your RO sander? Works for me on repairs in homes. Standard vac filters blow alot of dust out the back so I've increased the filtration in my own shopvac by inserting an internal bag in combination with a pleated filter for about $40. Does it match the Fes? Maybe not, but it is considerable bang for the buck.
Gord
The reason the joints needed sanding is that theywere assembled (nailed to the wall) not aligned (points and heels of a miter not flushed, if you know what I'm say there). It would be A LOT of elbow grease and I COULD do that but there is nothing like working less with the right tools for the right job.
The idea of improvising is a very good one....But....I've done many things thru my year's and the above wisdom has stronger points...the Festool system, Jetstream, is WAY better configured than my PC ro sander...the center hole on the Festool added to the outer holes being much closer to the outer edge of the diamiter is vastly superior, therfore, better dust collection. I thought about doing my shop vac with my PC ro, but I could tell is was going to be louder and less efficient and possible "redusting problems most sop vacs can have, too big a risk for what I need. Thanks for your thoughts though.
Plus, this is an "extra" job for me above and beyond my job that already is giving me overtime hours every week already.....so this is tool buying money for me and after using the Festool it was SO professional that THAT is what I want to present to this upper end client all the way....I believe it will pay off in the end recommends from her. And of course it's a FESTOOL, LOLLOLLOL, dangit. For another old tool junkie.
Edited 4/16/2006 1:20 pm ET by zorrosdens
I get way less dust with my Bosch ROS hooked to the Fein TurboII than I do hand sanding. Dust pickup using the Bosch 1/4 sheet vibrator isn't as good, but with the ROS you should be fine. And if you can justify the extra freight for the Festool for this 5 minute job - go for it!! Oh yea, the TurboII is really quiet, and with the HEPA setup virtually dust free (and 14 db quieter than the Festool).
You are right about the Fein being a ton, basiclly, quieter. I like the Festool set up, though, with the systainers and all, stacking, storage and such. The basic job of sanding the joints and being dustless (mostly) is high priority and is basically simple...the other detail is the 1/4 round backband that sets back off the surface of the 1x4 casing...when I sand some of these I'll need to rebate plane and tune/sand/reshape to regain the appearance of consistant shadowline detail around the total case after sanding....it was a slightly sloppy/too fast installation done by another. I'll be the fixer...some of the 1x4 edges have heavy ripsaw marks that will also be hand tuned along with all edges so it actually feels right to the touch and, therefore, the eye. A serious tune up job for an Artist's eye to judge. Wish the Festool was THAT quiet, thought...thanks!
There is a perfectly good reason for every tool purchase in my collection.
I WANTED IT!!!
If you are absolutely sure there is no other way,
You are making the right decision.
(I've been eyeballing the plunge saw myself...)
Festool.....mmmm....Sweet!
I been eyeing their small 125 ro sander, as other's seem to degrade so fast, for awhile and their barrel jigsaw too, never really considered a dust extractor before,...till now....this will be my first Festool (a long time coming), and this just is the best, "with nearly complete confidence", answer to the job's main worry for me, making a mess everywhere, in an Artist's "gallery/home". This place is going to be in Southern Homes Magazine ( maybe off on the mag name) in the future. So.....It definitely worried me. I want this final end of the job/ last detail for the final payment to the main contractors, whom I know very well personally, and they know my pickyness and that's why they talked to me to fix it...leave on a great/well done fix note, hopefully and everyone is happy.
I have a good selection of Festools along with the CT22 vac which we also use for cleaning the house hardwood floors.Keep in mind most Festools are designed with dust collection integrated.
And anti-static hoses come standard.In the big picture, if you're considering plunking down the bucks on their stuff, the extra cost of the CT-22 becomes just a fraction of the overall cost.I tossed around back and forth between Fein and Festool, but when Festool started pushing other lines of tools besides just sanders it became a no-brainer for me.
And this was back when Fein RO sander and vac setup cost a fortune.And the plunge cut saw was a viable alternative for me after I decided I had nowhere to set up a 220-V cabinet saw for ripping large sheets of ply goods.
I believe your right, overall. After seeing what the collection system they have does, when you need it, it is a near perfect solution. After seeing it, I would not attempt this job another way....I would just let someone else take it on. Those tools definitely make the difference, in my eyes, between pain and suffering for the client and myself, been doing enough of that in the earlier years, think I'll just work smarter if I can,....I believe a client will be appreciative and impressed with this kind of care. Thanks for your input.
Edited 4/16/2006 4:02 pm ET by zorrosdens
I have the CT 22, the ATF 55 plunge saw, the Trion jigsaw (used it today in fact) and a RAS 115 sander from them for removing heavy coats of finish on a large window job I did. I was absolutely amazed at how much sawdust it (CT 22) trapped from the plunge saw.
I left it off for a quick rip cut and my leg was literally coated with sawdust. I wiped it off and used the vac, no more dust. It will kick some out the front (saw) but less than 10% in my guess.
john
They showed that CT33E in the catalogues being used a lot, but I'm definitely going to go for hauling convenience of the CT22E after hearing how many of you use it. It really would be more convenient for the things I do (not being in a shop and all).
I've used a "low tech" solution a few times that works pretty well. Use a standard shop vac setup on the suction side. On the exhaust side, I run another shop vac hose out a window. That way any dust the shop vac filter misses will end up outside. Given what you said about the building, I'd use both a shop vac AND plastic to enclose the space where you're sanding. Kind of a "belt and suspenders" aproach.
The trouble with political jokes is that they get elected.
Hey Boss, Belt and suspenders is a good one....I know if I wanted, I could get away with a different lower tech way like you said, but this time I'm going whole hog. I know the money is a bunch, as all the Festools are,...the trouble is I've seen (and even handled) the light, so to speak. It's also an opportunity to move up on the tool feeding chain....LOL.
I'm going to try this with out the tenting and see if it will do what I believe it can...I'll start easy and feel it out...the joints are the worst of it (better on some, worse on others) and the rest will be hand tuned and cleaned....I actually think it will be OK, but I see one way or the other.
I'll definitely give a progress report on how it's going and working...hope it's a good one. Thanks!
Zorro --
I just want to throw in a comment here, since I can vouch for the effectiveness of the Festool sanders.
I haven't tried every sander in existence, but I have been through a lot of them, and the Festool I have (150-5) is far and away the best.
Since I already have a Fein vac, I chose not to buy the Festool vac -- and the dust collection is as close to 100% as I think you will get.
I am waiting for the new model of the 6" Rotex sander which will be out in July or so. As you probably know, the Rotex sanders have a dual mode. In the one, they are as aggressive as a belt sander, and in the other, they will perform like a more conventional RO.
If you can get over the initial price shock, I think you will be extremely pleased with the performance. And the sanding discs are priced pretty reasonable.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Hi Nik....Thought I'd hear from you sometime here. I'm choosing to start out with their small ES 125 ro..It will do this job and is the size I've been wanting to take over for my PC ro and I'm sure it will out perform and live longer than they have, since I've gone though quite a few different sanders. I know this will make the discs last much longer, too. I expect good things.
The whole system is expensive but it is such a good one, with the Tradesman (Installers) cleaning set, the package deal (save $59) ES 125 and CT 22E, hose hook and 2 100 disc packs of sandpaper and in those systainers....a bit over 8 bills with tax! No bragging AT ALL, this job just enables me to do this at this time (sorta rare for me). BUT it works so fine, must be tried to be appreciated. It's taking a huge problem out of sanding in living spaces.
I know many will think it's nuts!!
If I hadn't been called upon for this job, I would never have even considered the vacuum system, even though I have had a few in home sanding situations (small scale). Because of this job I'm getting the opportunity (that's what this is) to move up to a better tool which usually moves YOU up to better work and how you approach your work.
The ES125 is the base starter for me. I'm thinking on the next sander for more intermediate sanding...not sure which I'll eventually get, yet. The new rotexs look awkward...their probably not...I need to try one out the next time I'm in the store. They must be the next "thing" since their closingout their other one. The ETS 150/5 seems a likely candidate, they look easy to handle and heard good things, but I will try them all out and get more input, too. It might be good to get an aggressor of some type.
Man....the Feins are QUIIIIIIIEEEET! Thanks Nik.
Edited 4/18/2006 12:13 am ET by zorrosdens
I mentioned that I have the ETS 150-5, which is slightly more aggressive than the 150-3. But I was talked into it by a Festool rep (over the 150-3), and I'm glad he did. It works great and there are no swirl marks I can see. The Rotex 150 is kind of a brute. I have tried it, and it is pretty much mandatory that you use two hands with it. If you're doing loose pieces, that means they generally have to be clamped down, which can sometimes be a PIA.I've heard the Rotex 125 (which is takes 5" discs)is easier to handle, and if you buy one, I will be anxious to hear what you think of it.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I'll do a hands on sometime in the near future on the new figuration rotex.
That's what I thought would be best for my main needs, an ETS 150/5, since the ES125 EQ is a /3 already, the ETS would be the next step of aggression sanding without going bullriding, in my eyes
I'll let you know what it feels like when I try the other. Thanks for the ETS input.
Festool does have a 30 day return policy; so if you buy something, don't like it, you can always return it no-qustions-asked.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I know ...but I DO want this equipment....Even if I didn't have earlier needs often for an extraction unit, with this grade of tool, you greatly look forward to using them. It will be handy when I do and it just might change a few types of work that I take on now. I definitely won't be returning it, for sure. Be good to have and use, and I do want that sander, too. It's just a more professional set-up....many cuts above.
Edited 4/18/2006 11:58 pm ET by zorrosdens
Edited 4/19/2006 12:31 am ET by zorrosdens
I have the ES150/3 and the Rotex among several others.Anyway, just go ahead and get the stuff and get on with it!I promise once you have it you'll wonder why you spent so much time talking about it before buying.
You right....Done.
I don't have a Festool sander (yet), but I have some of their other stuff. After buying my first saw/vacum setup I used it for about four weeks and bought another one. One for the shop, one for the job-site, Some things I really don't actully know how I used to do stuff before I owned their setup. Any new tools I buy that they make will be Festool. Do I need to go on.
For your plastic enclosures check out http://www.zipwall.com Simple to erect and move plastic walls, get the zips and you can create an exit/entry door.
I'd thought of those.......I'm really hoping the Festool will take care of 95-98% of the trouble and I plan to "watch it" to see if it's doing alright in this job.
I just don't think i can "pop" for more yet....I'm going to have to see. They are a great idea all the way around, though. Thanks.
This is just a follow-up report.... the Festool set up is working wonders on this job. The dust is mostly paint (not the dustier old stuf, but new), with some MDF dust at times. The sander/extractor set-up is making it so I don't spread dust hardly at all...only a small, small sprinkle in the 2-4 foot range that is EASILY vacuumed when I finish that area's door units...I mean there are glass shelves, among other things, 5ft. behind me and they just don't have dust from me there. The cleaning kit is VERY useful for the rest of making sure I don't leave anything behind. The client is very happy about it working so well, too.
The job is taking longer to detail than I thought, but it will be a good reference point to judge any same type of work off of. I'm just making sure it gets done right for the finisher.
All in all, I'm Very happy with the set-up and this sander, not sure if a more aggressive sander, like the ETS 150/5, would have "hurt" anymore in the dust causing department. I know it would have speeded things some. That's it, Thanks to everyone that gave their thoughts...it helps.
If your going to use this system for site work, order the handle for the vac. at $ 62 it is costly, but with the systainers stacked on top the vac becomes a sort of hand truck. I'am able to transport all my power hand tools and fastners in one trip. On the subject of dust control, I had to cut some existing tops in an office, and with a drop cloth, Festool saw and guide I had accurate and chip free cuts and did-not trash the office. Festool is not just about quality but also "system". I'am 55 yrs.old and the less trips to van, the happier I am. DaveW
i bought the handle and it did not survive the rigors of jobsite use. it became loose. took it off and the plastic attachments on the vac
had broken.the fix, when i have time will be to drill thru the housing, use longer bolts w/ rubber washers inside the housing. i am presently not missing the handle while the unit is on site and may leave then handle off and
move everything around on my new aluminum handtruck which is easier to get up and down stairs and move around than using the vac as a hand truck.
Edited 4/25/2006 5:04 am ET by foobytor
Meeee, too, buddy!
Replace the casing. No dust.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Now....you KNOW you gonna make dust replacing alllll that casing and the special paint on the walls touch up and all......MUCH more money. BUT,....not a bad idea to get a better done job than was done. LOL.
I've got the 125 you bought, the 150/5 and the Rotex, Use em mostly in the shop. Them thing still amaze me every time. The times I've plugged em into the bench instead of the vac, (Lazy) I kick myself for doing so and roll out the vac in about two minutes. I plug in my ipod shuffle thing I got for christmans with some good sony earplug thingys and I can barely hear it and now got music too.
Which of the two Rotex sanders do you have -- the 5" or 6".Any thoughts/comments on the one vs. the other?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I got the 6" I think the model is RO150. I love it, did some entry refinishing on quartersawn Oak floor that took a lot of abuse, dogs, kids etc.. and hogged it down with 50 /80 the swiched modes 80/120/220 (220 looked smooth as glass). Some floor finish and done. Little to no cleanup, didn't even Zip wall the rest of the house off. just some bluetape and 18" high "Dam" with polysheeting and thats it. I got the 6" because at the time I already had the 6" pistol grip. Same size paper/interchangeable. The 5" is nice I guess, but for flatness, bigger is better.
Thanks.I have one of the Festool sanders (150/5), and I want to get one of the Rotex models -- but I am vacillating between the 5" (easier to handle) and the 6" -- which is pretty much a two-handed machine, meaning the piece you are sanding must either be clamped or nailed down. What do you think? Have I got it right about two-hands with the 6"?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
yeah, one handed gets hard on your wrists. If you've already got the 150/5, the 6" Rotex would be easier sandpaperwise. I haven't used the 5" for anything other that the demo model at a contractor day sale. As far as nailed down or secured, one of those rolls of shelf matting (2'x20' or so)
Cut a couple of pieces and lay it on your table/floor the put the piece you want to sand on it. It vibrate a little but doesn't run away from you.
the 6" rotex is easy for me to manage single handed and you get a better finish. keep the pad flat on the work and let the machine do the work.