We use a old spectra physics laser plane model 220.
We have also recently had a nightmare with a foundation sub-contractor
He said that our laser must be out , cause his laser said he was witnin an 8th in 50 feet
well thats pretty good, I think, Id take it, so our laser was saying almost an inch out
so we called our local laser service guy about calibration. It has not been calibrated in the 4 years we have ownerd it, we bought it reconditined, now 10 years old ( feb 95) and it has trouble starting up.
he took ours and loaned us a nearly new ( built this year) LL300 self leveling. he gaurntees it is right on , since he is the rep and dealer. ( also wanted to sell it to us )
we took it to our foundation
it showed that ours was out
sure enough
he called to say ours was out, at approx 3/4 inch in 100 feet, ( 3/8ths n 50, 3/16ths in 25) and the factory acceptable norm for this laser is 1/16th inch in a hundred feet, so obviously out of calibration
he did say that a bearing was also worn, the contacts were worn, we knew that, and it will get cleaned, replace bearing and calibrate.
However the loaner, it also shwoed that the foundation guy is out over 1-1/2 in 50 feet !!!! which is what our 6 ‘ stabilia was saying. not level
which is what we expected and to me that is not acceptable, and I will deal with that
but the main question is say in a 50 foot wall ( this one is actually 68) what would you consider normal, or acceptable for a foundation stem wall?????
thank you
Replies
3/8 of an inch.
Kip
maybe.........that's being generous.
I'd be pissed at myself if I did it.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
I could live with 1/2" but I wouldn't like it.
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If I'm going to build up a pony wall on the sill, then 3/8" in 50' (plus or minus 3/16") would be fine, and I probably would not spend more time on the forms than was necessary to attain that.
The 1-1/2" problem is a big one. Hard to grout under the mudsill to correct that, if you need a level sill to set joists on. If you're going to run studs on the sill then you can correct it more easily.
The prevalence of affordable and accurate lasers makes these types of errors unacceptable.
we are going to ponywall over it and I will be able to fix it there
in no way is it acceptable, but little that can be done now, it is cast in stone
we are gong to run a sting, cut the studs, caliculate how much time we loose to this, and back bill the sub when we get his bill
this has been a new sub for us, and not new to the biz, it has been the foundation job from he11
guess were back to doing our own
This foundation is level within about 1/16th for minor surface variations. The framing was a dream, with only myself to thank for personally doing the foundation. Wish I had the energy to do all my own foundations - very hard work!Les Barrett Quality Construction
OopsLes Barrett Quality Construction
Before the dial-up'ers squawk about file size or the can't-do-a-Shiftclick'ers complain about picture size, here the pics are resized.
Personally I like bigger pics. They show much more detail.jt8
Looks good, looks right, thank you for sharing
what was really hard for us is that we turned this over to a highly recomended company that has been "bugging " us to give them a try
they had all the right tools, forms, people, etc.
they do the foundations for one of the biggest tract developers in the area as well as customs and most of the comercial around here. They have 3 formen and 18 employees ( maybe small to some of you) Been in biz since 86
I think that they were rushing it big time and screwed up, evne the county inspector was surprised ,
yeah everyone screws up sometime
but if you had been trying to start doing someones work, and they offer you a try with 3 homes, would you blow it on the first ???
needless to say, we are doing the next two
just would have been nice to turn it over to a sub and move faster with our projects so we could jump from one foundation to another, especially this time of year
Those were Les's pics, I just shrank them down.
And yeah, I understand that everyone makes mistakes once in a while... but I just don't want them doing it on my project. And what they do to CORRECT the mistake really says more for their quality than making the mistake in the first place.
So then you start thinking, "if I want this done correctly, I'd better do it myself." But there are portions of the job that you just can't do as efficiently as having it sub'ed out... so it makes for some tough decisions.
Good subs are gold.jt8
yes I want ot build on a level foundation too, it is critical ( in my mind)
to have this go bad , was so wrong
I have lost more time fixing this then the good work in the begining would have cost
shaking your head and saying its up to the mudders and trim guys, bull , if thats wher your at, were not in the same place
thats like my olden days working in automotive saying the bondo guys will make it pretty, the alignement guys will make it track straight
an asp born for every seat , was a standard in the auto industry
but I build, and want to, quality. this foundation is a total with a rebuild title ( auto talk)
it all starts at the bottom and supprots the upper parts
a little different then trickle down economics
The foundation for my new place is out by a total of 1/4" over 50' - some high an eighth, some low an eighth. I had to stand there and shoot it myself with a fifteen thousand dollar survey instrument 'cause the foundation crew didn't even bring a level. They assumed the tops of the forms were level (icf's, and they weren't level). I had them put grade nails in every three feet, and there are still humps 'n bumps.
I saw a foundation yesterday, put in with conventional forms, might have been level over any given three-inch increment, but if you had put a stringline to the top of the wall, you'd have inch-plus gaps in several spots.
Thanks very much. The original files are from an 8 megapixel camera and I reduced them as much as I could without getting too much into software that I have not had time to learn. I was actually going to send about ten pics, but also have a slow connection due to unavailability of fast service out in the county.Les Barrett Quality Construction
I have to toot here.
I entered the trade working for a spec builder.........a house a year or so.
We did block foundations. I remember him having (sometimes) good hearted banter with the mason cause he was reading 16ths thru the level.
I did several homes with him and/or his son where a mason was hired or we did it ourselves, done a few on my own as well. 13 courses just to get out of the ground!
There was never any shimming, and if a corner was a little out of square we knew about it before we got there.
Is block so inferior to poured, or we do all just want quick and easy?
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
I think that getting from 1/2" to 1/8" is all attitude.
If you are out more than a half inch, you have a process, equipment, or training problem.
Getting better than 1/8" is anal and picky as my last builder called my work. But that is where I live, by choice.
Les Barrett Quality Construction
Les,
I meant that to ALL.
And yes I agree. Where do you want to go today?
I want to go on the top of a level foundation to build my house, thank you!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Over 50' it is pretty easy to stay within 1/8" to 1/4" total above and below the actual/true level line, with a little effort. A few slight bumps here and there can be chipped or ground off, but it doesn't take that long to dial in a set of forms. If the form panels show some inconsistency after all the walers and hardware and strongbacks and kickers are in place, ledgers can be tacked into the top of the form to screed to.
In my experience, it takes more time to level up the mudsill on on out-of-whack foundation than it does to do the foundation right in the first place.
It's the main reason I do my own foundations anymore.
Of course, good, accurate and reliable leveling equipment helps! :-)
0.1% slope overall is about 5/8" in 50'.
In 68' that would be about 13/16".
0.05% gives about 3/8" in 68'
1/16"/100' =0.005%
Somebody, what's the curvature of the earth in 100'?
SamT
I worked it out in AutoCAD LT.
It comes out to zero, so the curvature of the earth is not an excuse.
If I had the time to work out the numbers myself, my best guess is that it would be a decimal point followed by about 32 zeroes and one of the nine digits.Les Barrett Quality Construction
Fifty foot - One hundred foot - what's the difference?
Corner to corner, with the laser technology that has been available to us for about ten, maybe even twenty years, or with the water level, which has been available to us since at least the egyptians, 1/4" should be the standard and 1/8" should be superior.
There should be a whole new discussion about this.
Sadly, 1/2" to 3/4" is what I have been seeing. Causes? -
#1 - Attitude of the foundation sub
#2 - Untrained workers
#3 - Bad footer as a result of the above
#4 - Worn out and damaged forms (poor equipment replacement policy (greed, laws, poor judgment, etc.))
#5 - We let them get away with it
There should be a clause in the concrete sub's contract that withholds 10% pending approval of the framer. Ultimately, the customer pays; however, the framer spends more money and materials making up for a poor foundation than it would have cost for the foundation guy to get it right in the first place. Of course, many of our framers don't bother to correct the problem and build a shanty instead. With the turnover of homeowners, this does not become an issue, but we all know how it drives the standard of excellence downward. After all, if the foundation is screwed up, everyone else has an excuse, and the rock & finish folks get to be heroes.
Bottom line -
We can do better.
The old stand by " The drywaller will cover it"
Kip
You said it before I did.
I can do better than that with a simple water level.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
> I can do better than that with a simple water level.
And a simple water level is also a great way to check the accuracy of a laser level.
-- J.S.