I was reading the thread on “Sta-dri” basement and the discussion about EPS and XPS.
My boss and I are remodelling a basement that in some places has XPS (blue) glued to block walls and wood panelling glued to the XPS. Boss is tearing off the panelling and the XPS. He then wants to build 2×4 stud walls and put drywall over them. In past, he has just insulated with kraft-faced fiberglass, and I think that is not the way to do it. He says he needs the walls build out in order to run wire and one wall will be the wet wall for a bath.
I am have not been able to convince him to leave the XPS (and the 1/8″ panelling as well) and run wiring in channels carved in it (I suppose the wiring should be metal sheathed or run in conduit to protect it?) and maybe add another layer of foam panels, then glue on the drywall. He says glue will fail and drywall won’t stay up.
I thought we could also carve channels and add 2×2 “furring” @2′ o.c. and add more foam panels between them, then scew drywall to the 2×2’s.
Any ideas? He has already removed some of the XPS and panelling. Oh, in much of the basement, there is no foam–panelling was glued tight to the block walls. I recommend leaving that and working over it–but with what?
Replies
Well, the XPS hasn't fallen off yet, has it?
Go with your approach. If your boss is worried about the foam insulation falling off you can spray spots of expanding foam insulation between each stud and the foam panels every foot or so. The expanding foam will hold the panels on by compression even if the glue fails.
be sure to seal all the cracks and gaps in the foam panels.
You can use unfaced fiberglass between the studs if you leave the foam in place, but you probably don't need it depending on your climate.
Billy
I think he's more worried about the drywall falling off. Yeah, the foam is well adhered--the adhesive is still sticky. I live in middle of Michigan.
I was taking the wood panelling off a homeowner-built wall and despite the panelling only being nailed on every foot or more with finish nails, I ended up pulling the stud wall all out of kilter--the plate was spliced with a stub of 2x4 and not fastened to the floor at all! There was a door in a frame, the frame had been shimmed, but no nails, so it was falling out! Interesting contruction techniques. Plus the whole basement is filled stem to stern and almost floor to ceiling with stuff--enough kid's toys to make a 100 kids happy (they have 2), cabinets and bookcases full of knick-knacks and a computer--still running, and we're supposed to remodel? I love it when homeowners do that. Had to move a wine rack of only six bottles of wine, but one was champagne and I always envision it just suddenly exploding.
I don't think building codes will allow drywall to be attached without mechanical fasteners. Tell your boss to leave the XPS, then build the new stud wall in front of it. You can add fiberglass to the stud wall if you want, it won't be in contact with any cold surfaces, and won't likely wick up a ton of moisture. It would still make me nervous though. If you decide to use fiberglass, only use unfaced batts.
<< cabinets and bookcases full of knick-knacks and a computer--still running, and we're supposed to remodel? >>
Hope you got them to sign a contract that waives your liability for damaging their posessions. It's not your fault that they didn't get the clutter out of your way. Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
I'm a subcontractor whenever I work for Marc, and that's who got this job--I doubt that he even has a written contract. I moved a lot of stuff, and didn't want to mess with the computer, so I left it, but moved a floor lamop next to it to the center of the room. I went on the other side of a stud wall to knock the panelling loose, and of course, it flopped down and knocked the lamp over. Bent the metal shade slightly, but didn't break the bulb.
Thanks for your reply. I'll see if I can convince Marc to do what you suggest.
Justin,
I was trying to follow the other thread on which foam to use, and I got confused. Are you saying it is OK to use XPS (this would be the blue Dow Styrofoam, or pink?), against the foundation wall, and then build a stud wall on the inside of this?
I finished part of a basement this spring, and I installed 1 1/2" pink styrofoam, and then 2 1/2" metal studs. I did not install any fiberglass or vapor barrier behind the drywall. I also set the metal track on top of a deck board, similar to Trex. I ripped the deck board in half, and routed a 1/4" channel approx. 3/8" deep on the underside of the deck board about every foot, to allow any water that might get trapped behind the wall to make its way out. This would also keep the galv. track off the concrete, and hopefully, prevent it from rusting.
Anyway, if that is a good procedure, it might be useful to Danno. I used mc cable to run down at each receptacle, and ran all of them to junction boxes above the ceiling, as we were putting in a dropped ceiling and they would always be accessable.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
Bryan,
Your procedure is excellent. I've also used Trex under the bottom plate of a metal stud wall for the same reasons as you did. If space is tight you can use 1 5/8" 20 ga studs.
See pictures.
Billy
I noticed that you put shims between the studs and the foam. I thought about doing that, but decided it was extra work that I didn't need to do.
When I had the rough electrical inspection, the inspector said that mc cable was overkill. Perhaps, but I like the protection that the metal cladding gives in metal studs. I know they make plastic bushings for the studs for nm cable.
I also have ordered a flooring product that is no longer being manufactured. It's a laminate that is called Subflor Supreme. It is an OSB cored laminate, with plastic-ribbed backing that raises the floor about 1/4". DriCore purchased the rights to the product from Supra Floors. I was able to acquire some of the leftover stock that DriCore ended up with in the transaction. Only bad thing - there is no warranty on the product. Homeowner said that is OK. It's the product that she wants.
Bryan
"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
Edited 10/4/2006 11:34 pm ET by BryanKlakamp
The shims probably weren't necessary, but it's only spray foam spotted between the studs and XPS foam. It takes about 5 minutes to "shim" a room so it was cheap and quick insurance, and it made the 1 5/8" studs more rigid, because there's no drywall going on the other side of the studs.
I ran the wire between the steel and XPS so there were no sharp edges and no need for bushings. Your MC cable install is bulletproof.
It's good that you put drainage channels under the Trex plates. I thought about it but didn't follow through.
Billy
Good idea on the expanding foam. I'll keep that in mind for the next one. Since I used 2 1'2" studs, they were a little stiffer. But, it was still a little difficult to screw the drywall to them.
As far as the drainage channels, I hope no water ever needs to escape through them. But then, one never knows.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
Bryan - thing to watch out for with those plastic/OSB floor products is that they are most definitly vapor barriers. Is there a drain in the floor to remove any liquid water?
If not, or actually - even if there is - make sure that subfloor is spic and span before the planks go down. Might even consider some dry borate treatment or something sprinkled on the subfloor first. Don't give mold anything to feed on. Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Justin,
Yes, there is a sump pump at the one corner of the room, and the floor gently slopes towards it. The house is 5 - 7 years old, and since the current owners have lived there, they have not had any water problems.
The osb/laminate product that I am referring to was made for water to pass underneath to a drain. It is very similar to the 2' squares of DriCore that is sold at Home Depot. They say it will allow it to breathe. That being said, once the floor is down, and the base trim is installed, I don't know how air is going to move under that floor.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
Bryan,
I think I know the planks you are referring to - Are they the ones with a "finished" floor built right in? A layer of laminate or something similar?
If that's the one, then I reviewed it for the magazine a year or two ago. But while it's true you are blocking water and keeping it all below so it can run to a drain, what if there is dust, woodchips, or somethign else for mold to feed on under those planks? That's why I was suggesting some kind of inorganic treatment under the planks. It's probably the best option if you want to be absolutely sure - but there are pros/cons and costs for every solution. Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
I understand what you are saying about dust, etc.
What issue was that review for the flooring in? I don't remember it, but I would like to read it. It must have been before I started looking for that type of floor for this project.
Thanks,
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
The product I wrote up was Subflor Supreme, and it was in the HOUSES issue, #171. Just a short half page thing. Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Thanks, Justin.
That is the flooring that I have purchased. DriCore had some stock left from their acquisition, and I am waiting on it to be shipped from Canada. They have my check, and are waiting for it to clear the bank.
Just to reiterate: That product is no longer being produced. DriCore purchased the rights to the product, and I was told by the rep from DriCore that they are not in the laminate business. Neither are the 2' squares being produced by Supra Floors. Only DriCore is making the 2' squares with the raised black plastic on the underside of the OSB.
I will take a look at that article when I can find my magazine.
Bryan
"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
Edited 10/9/2006 9:40 pm ET by BryanKlakamp
According to the web site Subflor is still in business.But I see that both it has the same parent companies.Kruger (Longlac).http://www.subflor.com/ADVANCE/home.aspYou can also get the dimpled platic pad (or similar) as Delt-FL.http://www.deltafl.com/
Bill,
I could be mistaken on that. I am checking with the DriCore rep. He is out of the office until Friday. I will reply to you when I find out.
I know for certain that the Subflor Supreme is no longer being made, but the 2' x 2' squares of OSB with the raised plastic may be.
As far as the Delta-FL, I saw this product at either Lowe's or Home Depot. I was wondering how the laminate companies look at putting their laminates on top of it. What do they require between the two. Does using Delta-FL void their warranty?
If I had not been able to procure the Subflor Supreme, that would have been my next step.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
I don't know the requrements for lamintate floors.But I assume that with the delta-fl it is DIY.IE you add you own sub-floor. AFAIK the Subfloor/Dricore is bascially delta-fl type of material attached to 2' sq of sub-floor material.
Bill,
Here is the reply I recieved from the DriCore rep:
"Yes we are making the subflor advance allthough not in the US, Lowes still carries it but they will be switching to DRIcore. With Dricore you get a better panel - compression strength of 5000 lbs per sqft vs 2000. The new subflor advance will be the same as dricore just grey."
Hope that clears up any confusion.
And, yes, from what I can see, the DriCore is basically 5/8" OSB with Delta-FL attached to the underside of it. Whether or not they use Delta-FL, or either make their own or have it made for them, I do not know.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
Bryan - Both EPS and XPS will allow moisture to pass, but EPS will pass it more easily. That said, I just ordered a stack of XPS this morning for a basement remodel. In short, the foam you used is fine - UNLESS, it has a poly or foil facing on it. That WILL create a vapor barrier (or at least a heavy vapor retarder).
Your idea of using synthetic deck planks for a bottom plate is cool - I like your ingenuity. I've never used metal studs, they just don't look like as much fun to assemble. I like wood and nails myself :)
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
I've never used metal studs, they just don't look like as much fun to assemble.
[darth vader voice]"Come, young Skywalker, come over to the dark side." <g>
It can be very cool, though. No miterbox, just a pair of good, sharp tin snips (handed if you prefer). And a bucket of fraining points (self-drill, self-tap, 3/16" SM screws).
The top & bottom tracks are the key. A good laser for layout too.
No sawdust, no saw noise, no air hose run through the client's house--can all be good things.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Or if you have heavy gauge studs that are too tough to snip easily, you have to enjoy the noise and fire of a cutoff saw.
It sure doesn't smell like wood, though.
Billy
Why the tempered hardboard (aka Masonite) over the foam floor boards?Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Hi Justin,
The room with the Masonite on the floor didn't get the foam floor treatment because the floor covering is porcelain tile, with a NuHeat radiant heating mat underneath. EPS or even XPS foam probably has too much deflection to support a tile floor surface, although it would have been possible to use foam core Wedi board like they do in Europe for radiant floor installations. The floor was leveled with a mud bed and the Masonite protects the surface of the mud bed during construction and before tiling. The walls were lined with XPS before the mud floor was put in and the steel walls were built on top of a Trex plate fastened to the top of the mud bed. Building Sciences recommends using foam insulation between steel walls and the floor to minimize heat conduction through the steel framing and possible condensation or ghosting issues.
There is Ditra under the floor tile and Schluter claims that the channels in the Ditra allow water vapor to escape from the slab (but I'm a bit skeptical about this claim). Anyway, water vapor transmission through the floor is greatly slowed and the heating mat raises the temperature of the floor surface enough so that it will not be a condensing surface. It will take the edge off of a "cold tile floor" and it is not meant to be the primary heat source for the room. With the tile you don't have to worry about mold and the other problems associated with installing carpet in a basement.
The bottom three feet of the walls is finished in cement board as a fire barrier for the foam, and it does not support mold growth. Wood T&G will be installed over the cement board as a wainscot. The most important detail is there will be a wide chair rail on top of the wainscot -- wide enough to set your beers on top. Every basement needs a lot of surface area for beer bottles when you're having a party. :-)
You do everything you can to eliminate water issues in a basement, but it's still worthwhile to use smart construction so that a sewer main backup, broken washing machine hose, flooded window wells, or a heavy rain after an icy snow that freezes in the gutters and clogs them so the rain pours over the gutters (as happened a few years ago) or other "basement water event" don't ruin your day.
I'l try to post some photos of the NuHeat, Ditra and tile installation later tonight.
Billy
Edited 10/6/2006 9:33 am ET by Billy
Here's the Nuheat, Ditra, and tile on the floor.
Billy
I'm still cofused as to which is 'better' in the basement between XPS and EPS...when would one choose one over the other when insulating the basement? Does climate make a difference? Or is it just a 6/half dozen decision?
My take is that it doesn't matter too much from a building science viewpoint, as long as you stay within the recommended thicknesses for EPS or XPS (and note that the maximum thicknesses are different for the two materials). I find XPS to be easier to work with, but EPS may be cheaper, so it's a personal choice as long as you stay withing the guidelines.
More important than the choice of materials is that you follow the propoer detailing such as sealing all seams so no air can flow between the foam and the foundation.
See my comments below and read the reference to the Building Science website:http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=79489.18
Billy
Chech out the BuildingScienceCorporation.com website. They are advocating the inside use of eps and xps foams as being the best to eliminate any moldy conditions while allowing the basement walls to dry out.
Good Luck trying to change the bosses mind!