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I’m building a walkout basement addition to our existing house, using ICF’s. The addition has a footprint of 24′ X 28′. Three foundation walls will be concrete, but the walkout-end wall (with a step-down footing because of a sloping grade) will get framed with 2×6’s.
After dry-fitting three courses of forms, I shot a transit line and checked the diagonals: I’m 1/4″ out of level at the worst and 1 1/2″ out of square, corner to corner. Before I spend a lot of time trying to rectify these less-than-perfect numbers, I’d appreciate your opinions as to whether they’re within the tolerances of building industry standards for a well-built house.
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Seldom is cement work square (1/4 out of level is fine in my book, your not building cabinets), Square your sill plates on the pad, block or whatever and build up from there.
*The 1/4" level is fine; but 1 1/2" out of square seems a bit excessive to me. One way or the other, that's the size of a dimensional rim, off of where it's supposed to be, and trying to make up that difference with siding won't be easy. Perhaps I'm just too picky though.
*I agree that 1/4" out of level is workable, but the 1 1/2" out of square on the diagonals IS excessive. Though you can square up the sill plates, they will overhang on one side and be pushed in on the other-I guess this is only a real problem when the sheathing needs to extend below the sills. If the plates are inadverdantly placed flush with the IFC's, the floor sheathing, roof framing and roof sheathing will become a nightmare!, By all means, start out as square as possible and everything else will fall in place.
*Bill,I'll let the pro's tell you if 1 1/2" is too much but before you rip it all out and start over you may want to consider a few things.Are all of the walls exactly the same length? A quarter inch short on one, a quarter long on another and you might be a long way towards a 1 1/2" different in your diagonals.Are your forms perfectly plumb?Add a little bit here, take little bit there and your diagonals will be off pretty quick.Just some thoughts from a weekend warrior.
*maintain your 4 wall dimensions and tweak the top of your forms to get your diagonals...if you can get them within 1/2" and keep them after the pour .. you can correct the rest with your framing..
*Hey Bill,When we "dry fit" it's because we might have to tweak things. If you can get your foundation as close to right as possible at this stage, I would go as close to square and level as I was paying for, or, wanted (or could catch before it was done screwed up)... why would you settle for less, when you know about it, before the pour?And, no matter how great things look before de pour ( that's French), it ain't de same after...I only trim on top of the wacked out stuff, so, whudda ah no...
*Bill, although most builders attempt to be perfect, it sometimes happens that things aren't up to snuff. Your out of level foundation will simply need a few steel shims to level the deck.The out of squareness is large, but also could be overlooked, depending on several circumstances. In some cases, it will make the installation of the frame more difficult, but in others, it won't matter.Someone already mentioned that you need to determine if it is out of square, or out of paralell. That is the first step to making the decision to fix, or continue.Some have mentioned to square up the frame, while ignoring the foundation. That is what we always do on our new McMansions, but we have the luxury of hiding the "overhang" into the brick air space.If your frame is to be sided, and you feel that it is important to have a uniform reveal, or be flush the foundation, then you don't have the option of squaring the deck and leaving the foundation. If you don't mind a little variation down there, then simply square the deck. Keep in mind that your decisions on the deck will affect the roof installation.The out of square deck (if you leave it) might affect the interior finish. If you plan on a pattered tile floor, it will show, unless a very skilled layout man lays it. Then, only a trained eye will see it. Don't worry too much about pleasing the "trained eye guys". You can never please them. They live with the curse of perfectionism. They go around looking for defects and only see the worst of anything. I was like that as a younger man but was saved. Somehow, I excorcised that beast!If you'd like some solutions, post more info about your conditions including exterior finishes, interior details, roof style and most important: the "as built" dimensions of the rogue foundation.I don't think I'd lose sleep over it, but I probably would know how to hide the defect in most cases.Remember, if it looks perfect, it is perfect.blue
*Yikes!! 1 1/2" is alot. I get upset if I'm a half inch out of square. ( I build on very,very steep lots with an average of 12 steps in the footing per side ) If you haven't poored yet, fix it. It may cost you alot of labour and time, but what is your reputation worth. You may be able to hide it from the average guy, but the other trades will know. Bad word of mouth travels much faster than good. Good luck with whatever decision you make. If it makes you feel any better, I know a guy who built his foundation one foot out of square. He didn't notice until he started framing. I,m sure you can imagine the rest of the story.
*Yeah, 1 1/2" out of square is a lot on a small addition. You should definitely try to fix that part, and if you can, fix the 1/4" out of level too, while you are at it. Never having used ICF's, I dont' know how easy that would be. Having framed on crappy cement work, I do know how time consuming that can be. A common axiom among builders is "If you can't see it, it's not a mistake." This obviously has its limits, but you get the point.
*well, what is a reasonable out of square, and how much movement would it take to get into square. Can this be figured before moving lines with a calculator.
*ROFL!Forgive me for intruding into residential, but - I know of some folks who have a house, built less than 3 years ago, that would GLADLY take those faults! No word of a lie, their house is sitting at a slope that precludes coffee from being poured in the cup to more than 3/4 of an inch from the top. Otherwise, it spills out!
*Bill I'm assuming your a DIY'selfer. I think if you have not poured these walls yet, now is the time to fix them. As my old dad said a good tradesman is shown by how well he fixes his mistakes. And a good tradesman could fix this mistake, so most people would never know it existed. But a DIY'selfer would find it much easier to start from a square and level beginning.Also note a "good tradesman would fix a mistake if he caught it before it was to late".
*Geez...I've seen very few walk-out foundations that are bang-on.. This guy's doing it himself, don't think he's really a "pro". 1 1/2" out corner-to-corner translates into 3/4" out per side. It's a lot, but it doesn't make it impossible to build on. If you're going to parge the concrete after, it's possible to adjust the thickness of the application to help hide your boo-boo... Shrink your outside building dimensions to maintain adequate bearing if need be. This is your own house, you are your works worst (best?) critic.
*Bill, I would bet your walls have grown. The tendency for first timers is to make cut blocks fit tight. It starts as small as 1/32" per course. You continue to force the block in every course. By the time you reach the top the corners are out of plumb.If you struggle and have to force in a block DON'T. Just trim the cut and leave it loose. Do not concern yourself with 1/4" gaps in the foam.After you are topped out. Plumb the walls. Use a gauge and string line at the top. Now go back and foam any gaps you may have in the foam with a low expanding foam like Handy or Enerfoam. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
*1) Square the deck, overhang the foundation, plant some bushes to hide the overhang. Done, no worries mate. 2) Take a pill, don't worry about anything. 3) Spend the time to fix it, learn from the mistake. 4) I'll be the one to say that 1-1/2" ain't all that bad on 24 x 28. I'm sure if you don't square it, the trusses will still fit(rafters may have to have the birdsmouth cut adjusted on every one) the soffits will vary, but not by much. And generally no one will notice, and the ones that comment, you throw out the front door by their necks....Keith C
*first on an addition that you want to call well built, those out of square numbers are to me are notsomething I would want to leave. take that with salt cause I can be picky. we recently had a foundation poured by a subcontractor. 16x24 and was 2 inches out of square and nearly an inch out of level. I made them cut it out and repour and I no longer use them. So if that is too picky do not bother reading any more of this responce. Another point is how well built is the rest of your house. Now that you are getting familiar on what to look for, look at your exsisting, is it built with overhanging plates, etc.Some new homes built these days would be lucky to be 1/4 inch out of level or 1 1/2 inch out of square. Ive seen new homes built with little more then a speed square.Pouring concrete is not like wood. when the concrete is poured and set ou can not rack the walls. I agree that if the walls are not plumb when checking that might be your difference, was the measurement the same at the top as well as bottom ( as fara as square), and also give yourself a reference point mesured from the house, also as mentioned earlier you might have a block a little long.Another question is how square are the walls of the house you are building to. There are times that a person might want to build out of square so as to follow the smae wall plane.If there will be a second story on top, you can float the plates and then start square again, but you will have that transistion to deal with and hide.Slightly out of level and square footings and foundations are not unusual. But we fix them from there up. If not and you follow the same lines up then you will be cutting everything to match. Flooring. ceiling drywall, trim, etc etc. Fix it while you can. You can tweek ICFS.Some brands have local reps who will swing by for free and give advice. I know in my area the AAB- Blue Max rep goes out to homes often, or so he says. Since you are new to ICFS, take your time ad work it out. If you were in my home area I could swqing by and take a look
*If you paid someone to do the foundation, make them redo it. If your doing the work yourself, pour it, and spend a day setting your new oversize sill plates square and level. Make 'em perfect. Makes the whole structure a pleasure to work on.Luck
*i After dry-fitting three courses of forms, I shot a transit line and checked the diagonals: I'm 1/4" out of level at the worst and 1 1/2" out of square, corner to corner. You're 1 1/2" out in the first three courses? Seems like a no-brainer to move those few blocks around a bit...
*The leaning tower of Pisa only leans a little at the bottom. But that little bit makes a big difference at the top.Do whatever it takes to get plumb and square before you go any farther.You don't want to be adjusting EVERYTHING to fit.Do you?
*I been reading this post with intrests, for my slab is out by 3/4 on the diagonal on 51 feet. So I pulled out the caluculator and the STEEL tape and started pulling pythagorean theorem on the corners. I first started in trying to square the whole slab and could not. So I sent everybody home put a nail in the batter board and started pulling corners by myself without everybody saying it be alright. On corner was out 2 1/2 inches and it fell in line.By calculation that corner it was 89.118 degrees and threw it out by 2 1/2 inches. Now this was only 3/4 on the diagonal so I would do everything possible to get it square first.
*I don't see how it's possible to be more than a 1/2" out in 50-100 feet.When you snap the lines on footer, you are supposed to use the pythagorean theorem to make sure the chalklines are square. Then you keep the foudation plumb as you work your way up. I wouldn't accept 1-1/2" out of square on 100 ft. Especially BEFORE concrete is poured. It does make a big difference. You can square the frming and make it right but you shouldn't have to. I would fix it NOW. Bill,you said you have only done 3 courses. No problem, fix it. Get it within a 1/2". It will take the labor to fix it somewhere along the line.Billy
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I'm building a walkout basement addition to our existing house, using ICF's. The addition has a footprint of 24' X 28'. Three foundation walls will be concrete, but the walkout-end wall (with a step-down footing because of a sloping grade) will get framed with 2x6's.
After dry-fitting three courses of forms, I shot a transit line and checked the diagonals: I'm 1/4" out of level at the worst and 1 1/2" out of square, corner to corner. Before I spend a lot of time trying to rectify these less-than-perfect numbers, I'd appreciate your opinions as to whether they’re within the tolerances of building industry standards for a well-built house.