What is going on here? On the 4th of july we found and put an offer on another investment property.
This house is currently bank owned. a deal was made (i think) around the 14th of july.
This is a cash deal. Today is the 28th and still no closing date!!
Whats the deal?!?!? how long can a title search take? They need nothing from our side, were just waiting on them.
The thing thats bugging me more though is not only has this bank managed to tie up 5k of my cash, i’m being held back by this deal. I cant get another house while this is going on.
If this wasnt such a good deal I would probably be ready to dump by August 1st.
Anyone have experience with why these closings are taking soooo long?
Replies
Have you asked them? Maybe it fell through the cracks.
Are you getting title insurance.
It is my understanding that instead of using an abstract that goes back to Piffin making the dirt that they use a more casual title exaim and then insurance for anything that might have been missed 3 genrations ago.
And specially in a case like this with a foreclosuer. That wipes out most or all previous claims.
I wonder if they might have missed a required notice or something like that and they are trying to find the people affected and correct it.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I have bought a number of bank forclosures and some banks are simply burecratic and not in any hurry at all. In Ohio all forclosures go through a sheriffs sale process so the bank has to buy back the property. They will often not transfer title to themselves until they have a buyer which means they have to transfer twice. It doesn' t take twice as long but it does slow things up and if there are any small title issues like someone didn't sign off 10 years ago or so they have to clear it up. DanT
Most title searches take about ten minutes...or less. The records are all there, in the county clerk's records department. They are open to the public too.
I got P.O.ed when I heard how much a title search would cost for a building lot I was buying so I went in and did it myself, with the aid of a county employee in that office. Nothing to it.
If you're paying cash for a property, there's no reason to pay for title insurance, particularly if you know the property's history. Just go into the clerk's office, ask how to do the search and make sure that there are no liens recorded.
It's only when there's a mortgage placed on the property that the lender insists on title insurance.
BTW, title insurance is one of the biggest scams in the insurance industry. I checked it out a few years ago and found that all the title insurance companies had their main offices one big building. Conspiracy theorists, take aim.
"The records are all there, in the county clerk's records department. They are open to the public too. "So the records clearly show that the "wife's" signature was not that of the wife, but that of his girl friend.And this comes out 2 years later during the divorce.And the wife wants her 1/2 of the house.Or the will left the house to the children. And the deed has the signature of 3 person. But there where 4 children..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You're right. I shouldn't have taken such a pro fug-da-n-sur-ance position. And I should've made a stronger qualification about when it's OK to forgo it.
I'm still P.O.ed at how much money the title insurance industry makes for what amounts to a few minutes paper work.
After the county clerk walked me through the search process, I became convinced that in most cases, paying someone else to do the search was completely pointless, as was the insurance.
That assumption will be up for careful review, the next time I buy real estate.
I'm still P.O.ed at how much money the title insurance industry makes for what amounts to a few minutes paper work.
You're forgetting the expensive part, the insurance policy. They're normally promising to defend the title against all comers, well-grounded or not. Attorneys here will rarely do a client title search because they lack appropriate liability coverage.
I do my searches, but wouldn't do anybody else's. Last place I bought was a mess. The attorney handling the estate/sale got the lion's share of what I paid. One of the 9 disparate heirs could only manage an "X". Title insurance? Oh yeah, something I definitely wanted to buy. And made resale a breeze.
Sometimes it's simple, other times not. Mortgage holders generally require title insurance. Absent a loan, your choice. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
OK. Again...I should've qualified that remark by pointing out that there are exceptional cases where title insurance makes perfect sense.
My point was that, in most cases (that's a qualifying phrase), the title search is a simple and straight forward as a stroll in the park...everything open and above board, just a few minutes of checking the county records. In those cases the excessive premium paid for title insurance is not earned, just taken by them because what I view as collusion between supposedly competing companies makes it easy for them all.
" Attorneys here will rarely do a client title search because they lack appropriate liability coverage."Fine exampole of the diffence state to state.here, I can only buy title ins through an attorney, AFAIK.In CO, you had to go through an abstrat company when I was there.
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" Attorneys here will rarely do a client title search because they lack appropriate liability coverage."
Fine exampole of the diffence state to state.
here, I can only buy title ins through an attorney, AFAIK.
Splitting hairs slightly, I was only mentioning a title search. Not insurance. And it was the search that HVC was offended at the cost. Somebody needs to do a title search prior to sale: buyer, attorney, title ins co, ...
Then there's the person actually doing the closing. I was shocked, moving here, that it was always an attorney (no longer), when in Colorado one was rarely needed. Entity doing the closing would normally arrange the title insurance policy, with it's requisite title search. That's what varies by state.
So you pay for title insurance at closing, through the attorney handling it. Can't imagine a title insurance co refusing your money if somebody other than an attorney was handling the closing. In Colorado, when I left, it was all in-house.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
In MO you usually use a title company. They do the escrol and the closing. There is a separate fees for title searches and title insurance.I suspect that you can have a different company do the title work from the closing, but I suspect that 99.99% of the time that they are one in the same.And the title companies do have attorneys on staff.But you usually don't see or hear them.Not sure how often they get involved.But I as involved in the sale of a church to another church and it was being financed by a branch of that denomination.The title attorney indicated that the mortgage forms that they present where not acceptable in MO.But that info came through the closing agent..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"Can't imagine a title insurance co refusing your money if somebody other than an attorney was handling the closing"In order to buy title insurance, there has to be atitle search first. Without somebody the insurance company trusts to verify their work, they do not issue a policy.So here, the policy protects the owner, the bank, AND the lawyer who does the research.
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Your title insurance companies have attorneys doing title searches? Wow. That must make for very expensive policies.
Clerks generally do the title work here, employees of the title ins cos. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You don't open the yellow pages here and find a tiotle insurance company. To get the policy, you go to the attorney's office, hire the search done, and they sell you a parchment from some national title ins co. underwriter. The actual search probably is often done by a clerk or paralegal in the office, but still under the lawyer's direction and the search gets his signature.
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As you said, different areas have varying ways. All with pretty much the same result.
The attorneys here were extremely displeased when non-lawyers were allowed to do closings. Kind of like the surveyors who enjoyed the idea that a survey more than 6 mos old was too old.
We've got a law school here and an area attractive to a great many. Surplus of attorneys, but no diminution of rates that I've noticed. Last time I was in traffic court I was shocked at how many hung out there, hoping to pick up a fast Franklin.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
The actual search probably is often done by a clerk or paralegal in the office, but still under the lawyer's direction and the search gets his signature.
More importantly, the lawyer, not the paralegal, gets sued for malpractice when there is a screw-up and his/her professional liability policy will be available to pay the claim. Having a title insurance policy means that even if the lawyer was not negligent in certifying title, (and thus the professional liability policy is not implicated) if the title is no good, the insurer will compensate the owner.
Years ago, I was involved in a case where the estranged wife went to a closing with the boyfriend posing as her husband. They both signed the deed and the happy buyer paid his money and moved in. Several months later the real husband showed up and wondered who was living in "his" house. The buyer had title insurance. Without title insurance, the buyer would have been screwed because the (forged) deed to him was no good. His money was of course long spent. Anyone searching the title in the interim would not have been able to see any problem because the record title showed a deed signed by wife and, apparently, husband.
"After the county clerk walked me through the search process..."In most places, the clerk's answer will be, "We are not allowed to give you advice and assistance for tis, Mr Hudson"They can be considered to be rendering legal assistance without having been admitted to the bar. Etiher you know how to do the work, or you hiore a legal beagle...now there is a scam we can agree on...!I know how to do a search myself, BUT, I find it cheaper to hire it done by a pro who is qualified and licensed to sell me the insurance that can protect me..I can say that when my laweyer sells me title ins, he putrs 50% in his pocket. I consider it worth the dollars.
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"We are not allowed to give you advice and assistance for tis, Mr Hudson"
Yep, that's almost exactly what she said to me with a smile, before showing me the procedure.
Here's what I'll suggest to anyone interested in learning what's involved. Go to the county clerk's records department and look up your own property or a property belonging to a family member, something the history of which you already know.
Use your own reasoning, ask questions. See if you can spot any loop holes that might pop up about ownership or liens. It's all common sense when the transaction is simple. If it's not simple, you'll be able to tell that too.
I believe that ya'll are intelligent enough to figure this out for yourselves. Without a lot of Dick Nixon style, head shakin', jowls floppin' admonitions to "watch out for the boogie man". ~!~
A little knowledge is dangerousever hear that?
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Be aware that the title insurance you are asked/made to buy is not for you, but for the lender. Costs extra for a separate policy if you want to cover yourself.
I live on a 350 home private lake that was orginally developed in 1928. When I bought my lot I did do some information searching of the recorded info to find out about easement and also the C&R's and to find some details on the development company (ie, homeowners association that ownes the lake and roads).I don't remember how hard that was at the time.But I did find a record settlement in favor of a previous owner of the lot from the developement company. And I was able to use that information to get a get a discount on my building fee (permit).But the last few years, for one reason or another, I have used the online access to look up records for several houses.And have noticed that the indexing is not always correct.For example for the sub-division that I am in there are 5 different indexes. On 2 of them appear to be for special cases. Where a couple of lots where replatted.But for other indexes is some that of the lots that I have checked part of the transactions for any one lot will show in one index and other in other indexes.And you will see one tranaction with a matching one. For example a release of trust deed, without the earlier trust deed showing.Or John Doe adding Mary Doe, wife to the dead, but a later sale only showing it sold by Joe Doe, a single person.No statement of death or divorce..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
A little knowledge is dangerous
ever hear that?
"A word to the wise is sufficient"
ever heard that?
Your bank is the hold up. If their procedure is the same as the banks I've worked for, they have to do a title search before they foreclose. So the work should basically be done, especially if they use the same company/attorney to do the search for your purchase as was used for their foreclosure.
Tracy
Talked with my RE today. I told him we need to get this moving. Finally! We close 10a.m. Wed. Cant wait to get this thing moving.
So the records clearly show that the "wife's" signature was not that of the wife, but that of his girl friend.
One property I bought, the attorney pointed out that the seller had no title issues, but previous owner may not have transfered it properly. The previous owner's wife had died, and when the previous owner sold the property, the documents didn't list him as "Otto Hxxxxx, a single man"
The attorney pointed out that even though Otto was 90+ when his wife died, that doesn't mean he didn't re-marry.
Having lived in the neighborhood, we were comfortable enough to go through with the purchase anyway.
Bowz
I can argue all day long on your predjudice against title insurance with examples, biut I'm sure it won't change your mind since it is already made up.but I will point out that it varies a LOT by what state and county you are located in. Some places the search is easy and the insurance mightbe a scam. In other places, the search and insurance is a necessity, ESPECIALLY when paying cash!
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Most title searches take about ten minutes...or less. The records are all there, in the county clerk's records department. They are open to the public too.
I got P.O.ed when I heard how much a title search would cost for a building lot I was buying so I went in and did it myself, with the aid of a county employee in that office. Nothing to it.
Any fool can size a beam. I get PO'd when I hear what some engineer will charge just to tell me how big a beam to use. I can look it up as well as any engineer. Any fool can remove an appendix too.
BTW, title insurance is one of the biggest scams in the insurance industry
It is insurance, after all. It is designed to protect an owner from a title defect that was not necessarily apparent from a title search. I was recently engaged by a client who was sued by a person claiming to be the owner of my clients' land. It seems that the person who sold it to my client may not have owned it after all. At a cost of less than $200, my client bought title insurance. Now, instead of the client paying my (modest) fee, the title insurer has agreed to pay it. If it turns out that the land doesn't belong to my client, the insurer gives him his money ($60,000) back.
I always buy an owner's title policy and recommend it to anyone who asks.
Depends on how far back they go. A thourough search should take it back to the original subdividing. Most research now just goes to the previous "clear" title, which can get you in trouble if previous searches missed something. Had a problem whith a $2mil spec house built on two lots. The builder had bought two lots and made one to build this huge house. Problem was that he "forgot" about an existing sanitary sewer easement, with 18" pipe in place, which he built over. I found it in 10 minutes after a supposed "title search." Kind of had a clue when I uncovered the MH in a planting next to the house.
Does seem kind of long. Start complaining.
I didnt think it should take this long. Guess i'll start making some calls on Monday.
I was buying a house with a bank mortage about ten years ago. I had the cash (and the bank knew it) but wanted a loan for other reasons. Bank sez I am a very good risk, good customer blah-blah-blah. A month later still know loan and no good explantion. I was POed.
Told the bank they had 4 days to fund and approve the loan (in writing) or I would go elsewhere. They replied "fine, but you will lose your 3k deposit" . I said this is what lawyers are for and left. Loaned got approved in exactly 4 days. Dropped the bank a year later.
Banks rarely realize that they need customers and need to deliver a service to stay in buisness. They have done a very good job of brainwashing people into thinking how lucky they are to have a bank that makes a profit from them , yet treats them like a dog.
Tell the bank to stick it in a nice way, they will listen if there is money to be made.
I was planning to tell the bank to stick it, but then I thought better of it. I'm buying this house for about 60/70k under value and will only have to put about 8k and three weeks into it to rent it.
The bottom line however is that, like I always say, "there's a house right next door to this one and one right next to that". I can always find another deal. I am hoping to make this deal work though.
It is clear that you are holding up the process.
You are asking for the title search.
Just pay for the property and get on with your life.
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You might reconsider your need for insurance.
As it turns out all I want to do is sign the check.
They're the ones burning all my time. Nothing would make me happier than to wake up tomorrow and write a check. Instead i'll be bugging my agent trying to find out whats going on.
i have seen title searches take seven weeks. Depends on the state and pasty history / background.
But when the bank already owned it, there should be no problem. Maybe the officer dealing with your case is on vacation this time of year and the package is just sitting there
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You remind me of a house I did two years ago. The lady thoughtshe owned the house outright by power of attorney. Turns out there were a couple of nephews/nieces that had some rights. There was no dispute with-in the family and it still took an extra 2mos to close.
I must say if this house locks my money up for two months, this deal will not look half as good to me.
As I read through the post, no one mentioned I problem I had once. I bought a house to rehab and had a title search, did the work, sold it with a title search and title insurance. About a year later come to find out that the shared driveway was really on the neighbors property. To make a long story short, the title insurance had to pay the new homeowner the cost of a new driveway. It seems that around here the biggest problem is not title liens but bad land surveys.
The title insurance that I have seen excludes boundry problems that a survey would show..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I don't know abnout specific boundary problems, but mine have a clause adressing protecting and defending rights of access.
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Thats why i'm not forgoing the title search. Better to CYA and wait a little but this is getting nuts.
The other problem is that we had a big job get postponed till the 8th which would make this a great time to get this going. As it is I plan to have my dad run this project so I can be working at paying sites instead of going hungry while fixing the rental.
Right of way and easements are the most common situations I see, and probably 50% of the time, people don't even think of making any calim on the policy, tho that is what it is there for. Some of those errors go back a hundred years and more, but in the family for genrations so the error is not found untill sold.A neighboring ot to me has a right of way problem because the ROW was granted - or at least intent was demonstrated in a letter - back in about 1984, but the then owner never recorded it at the courthouse....
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Prelims here in California take only about 10 working days, unless there are serious issues. I would have the RE Agent call the Title Company Agent (or do directly) and pose your question to them, not us.
Here in California, I was told by a title officer that some title companies have stopped going back to the time of Piffin, or as they call in BP (Before Piffin) and instead now research only back to the last time ANY policy of title insurance was issued.
Since most title insurers work in shared "plants" with several title companies occupying the same shared space, they can easily access other insurers title reports to the same property, done a few years earlier. This makes the process fairly quick.
Regards,
Scooter
"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934