I have been in business about 16 months. I have had no draw from any job in 4 weeks. I can go about 3 more weeks before I have to start worring about paying myself and the small overhead I have.
Guys are laid off so no real payroll right now.
I have money out there, billing it out this week finally.
All company material bills are paid to date. Nothing is behind.
I am just curious what is the norm for how long a guy can sit before he starts thinking about closing the doors or at least scaling back the operation and maybe not getting a paycheck for a bit just to keep the business alive.
Mostly curious because there is no work lined up. Once what is out there is collected I could go about 3 more weeks. So, in 6 weeks or so I would be sweating. I have a few service contracts and a few very small jobs that during the next 6 weeks could generate one more week that I can stay home.
7 weeks out. Is that good? How long can most people go?
October 17th, 2009
Jeremy and Lisa
Was there ever any doubt?
Replies
I am just curious what is the norm for how long a guy can sit before he starts thinking about closing the doors or at least scaling back the operation and maybe not getting a paycheck for a bit just to keep the business alive.
Sorry to hear things are down. I just got laid off last week myself. I had my own business for over 15 years then decided to go work for someone about 3 years ago. Now I am sol again.........
I'm curious what the statement you wrote above actually means to you. What does it mean in tangible terms for you to "close the doors" or "keep the business alive"?
We could live for a few months off of personal savings and lisa's income.
Which means things would be tighter but I could absolutly make it till spring when work normally picks up.
We have decided that we will not quit unless we are basically out of options.
How long did you ponder shutting down before you did, and could you of made it longer waiting on a job to come in to drag things out even longer. I am interested in making it all the way through this recession. I already see people giving up and canceling insurance and such. That makes my market better, less competition. As my market and the economy improve, I should be ina position to make some money after recession.
We are looking at buying forclosed properties and such to make it through. Thatrs a whole different business plan that we are doing for cash flow and work reasons.October 17th, 2009
Jeremy and Lisa
Was there ever any doubt?
My shutting down had been coming for a while. There were many factors; the biggest one being when I realized what I needed to charge to create the income I decided on. I got tired of selling myself to folks interested in the lowest bidder much of the time. The good jobs were too far and too few between.
I have some savings to live off of a while as you do. And dw is still working. Yeah, that'll go over long!
I've decided to find the best I can as soon as I can before the lines get long. I see this getting worse before it gets better. I just need to get through the next 12-18 months.
"We are looking at buying forclosed properties and such to make it through"I'm not sure what you mean by that but taken at face value, I'd be skeptical of buying anything right now if you're in a poor cash position. That's not to say that there aren't some good deals out there but when money's tight it's not the time to be spending it.
I somewhat agree with you, but here is the thought.
I know two people who are wanting to buy forclosed property, not my money and they have cash.
I have done a lot of "free" work in my "spare" time to find them a few good deals.
The house need some work, and that is where I come in. We also do maint work and prop management for these people. That creates more work for me.
There is a catch, always is.
Owner buys house appraised at 75K for 32K, this is the primary deal we are working on. It needs 20K in repairs and such to make it as nice as it should be for the area it's in.
Total investment is 52K on a 75K property. Rent would be 750.00 on this property. His yearly cost on bldg, including maint is 4500. That gives him 4500 clear if its rented.
If he only pays me 90% of my 20k (18,000) I then own 4% of the property.
When property sells for 70k in 5yrs(or more) i get $2,800(my 4%), plus my original 2k that was held in the beginning. Plus, I get 4% of the annual profit, along with my maint and management fees.
I don't know if we ae going to the deal this way or not. It is an idea he has come up with. Would take a new inc or llc to do it and me guarantee not to get screwed.
This guy says he's trying to help me and him both, but I know how this normally goes. I have done a lot of work for him over the years, but we have never comingled our moneys.
Thoughts? October 17th, 2009
Jeremy and Lisa
Was there ever any doubt?
I don't typically like these long term situations and yours doesn't sound any better than others I've heard.Too many unknowns.
Sit down and play "what-if". Like, "What if one of us gets sick, or divorced, or dies?" When I was practicing law, I always counseled people who were getting together to do a written agreement, but don't recall many doing it. Got into a deal with one of my relatives and we never got to it either. Next thing, he dies - 45 years old. Now I get to deal with his wife. Lots of fun.
When you get into this, ask the hard questions. Now you are friends, but what if that changes. Do you get bought out? At what price? When do you collect the $$$?
They say a partnership (essentially what you are going into) is like a marriage. You need to know your partner intimately and be ready to spend a long time together.
I also feel that this is a bad time to be spending money. It is easier when it's not all yours, but some of it is. I would not get into this with any money that I really needed. As far as the actual numbers, I don't see any allowance in there for real estate brokers on the sale end. The numbers seem okay, not great. Is the owner taking you on because he likes you or is there another reason? is he limiting his risk by a small percentage? Is he doing it to limit his cash outlay?
Good luck.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Yeah, at the very least there should be an agreement (written down) as to how to break the agreement.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Are a percentage of the annual maintenance & prop mgmt costs deducted from your share of the annual profit? What about if something big and spendy needs to be replaced - like a roof or heating system? Is he going to absorb that and still give you your full profit and payout at the end?
Whenever I've partnered - even informally- with someone and I'm the 'hands-on' guy there always seems to be an expectation that I'm going to absorb some of the materials and work for free or at a reduced cost, or my invoice never seems to get paid in full...so I'm naturally pessimistic about these deals working out.
You're not talking about a big payout on this deal, if it were me I'd take my full payment and keep looking.
-Norm
That effing sucks, Eric. I wish you the best of luck.
Remember that an economic downturn/recession is an aggregate sort of thing.
There are still buyers out there and work to be done.
Kick-up your marketing and sales efforts and you can keep a "normal" workflow and when things pick up, you'll be set to grow!
Situations vary, of course - just don't assme that a downturn means everybody losses business.
Read some Zig Zigler sales books to bolster your sales attitude/apptitude!
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Zig ziegler, got any titles, name is familureOctober 17th, 2009
Jeremy and Lisa
Was there ever any doubt?
My favorite one of Zig Zigler's is the Art of the sale.
However I cannot agree that Zig Zigler is an author you should read to learn how to sell. His books mostly are written for sales professionals who have gone stale or need some motivation..
Sales and marketing are a real skill set. Just like finish carpentery or furniture making is differant from framing construction.
The idea of jack of all trades master of none comes quickly to mind.. If you believe that plumbers should frame houses and electricians do finish work well then contractors should do their own marketing. The attitude and skill sets required are totally differant for each.
I realize that hiring a salesman is cost prohibative and another to do marketing so read books about gorilla marketing and closing techniques.
because you've read the book please don't assume you're ready. practice on someone not supportive.. If you wife can be highly critical use her or a critical friend etc.. you want to correct flaws not have a cheering squad..
How long can I go?
Well Jeremy, when I was at your stage of the game I ran through 2 recessions--the business actually started in a recession. I'd say unlimited. We were built for it.
I still don't have time to do any site work, and am pitching deals every day. I am sort of in a different business than you nowadays, but everything is exposed to a toxic economy.
rjw was correct when he said crank up your marketing... I'd add get creative with your marketing.
Think in the context of resumes. Some people look at thousands a week--each one gets 3 seconds. What would make one get noticed rather than ignored?
You need to be the one getting the attention.
I just stack the deck on the internet to get the attention--doesn't hurt that our stuff looks great.
Good luck you guys!
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Sorry to hear that things are slow.
Don't really have any helpful advice to offer - Just wanted to say that I hope things pick up for ya.
How long most people can go totally depends on the individual and your commitments. But if you've decided to stick it out till the spring you should probaly start roughing it on her income now and prepare for the spring with marketing ect. I was always told you should be prepared to pay all your bills ect. for at least 6 months. but not everyone gets to that point at the same rate as others. even at that sometimes I tend to get nervous . have you considered doing work for other contractors until things pick up?
I saw this coming a couple of years ago....not all of it, just the building bubble showing signs of bursting.
So I scaled back, got rid of debt and I'm living below my means (a good practice at any time, actually).
I have a couple of sole-proprietor contractor friends in your shoes. Both are young guys with kids. Both are above average builders with some complementary skills.
I'm encouraging them to team up....maintain their independence but pool their work.
I've done that in the past myself when things were slow and, with two of us coordinating our jobs, we actually did better than when we were working individually.
I'm not an advocate of formal partnerships as a business model, but for a couple licensed individuals, there is some simplicity with paperwork minus the issues that often come with some employees.
Best of the future to you.
best..... i've been thru recessions in every decade i've been in the business since '73i only had to shut down the operation once.... in about '89... and that was helpful in making me think about how i really had to do business when we started back up againnetworking and marketing and a working wife were all keys to survivalbe careful about reducing your prices just to get work...
it usually ends up trying to cover your losses by making it up in volume ( that's a joke )knock on wood..... it does get better the longer you are in business.... if you have a stable of satisfied customersMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If it was me I'd have already been checking ALL options......
This ain't no normal downturn.......35 years I haven't seen anything even close to this.........
A lot of guys are holding on right now waiting for a miracle.....
look around.. the credit card industry is about to go bust.......new car sales are down over 30%........the banks that got a bailout are hording the money and not lending.........
You actually think your phone is gonna be ringing and all you gotta do is hold on a bit............I'll join in with the rest and wish you good luck.
yeah I know.. doom an gloom ain't politically correct, positive thinking in a hurricane is cool,
ask those guys in Galveston how well it did for them.............
I'll have to agree with you, JJ. Certainly it varies from one part of the country to another, but in general this is a downturn that isn't going to turn "up" for at least 6 months, and possibly as much as 18-24. And, thanks to the housing bubble, there's both an oversupply of new homes and an oversupply of construction workers, and the competition is fierce and the profits (when you can get work at all) thin to non-existent. The economy in general is bad, but the construction economy is "ground zero". Even after conditions begin to improve, construction will be slow to pick up, and you won't see conditions like five years ago again for a long time (if ever).So I'd advise the OP to first off change his lifestyle NOW, rather than waiting for the money to run out. Cut back on eating out, turn down the thermostat, think twice about buying new tools, shop at discount stores and thrift shops, etc. Look for recurring expenses (like an extra phone line, or "premium" cable) that you can eliminate.And maybe consider that your customers are in the same boat. What everyone is looking for now is ways to save money, not to live more luxuriously, so there's at least a little money to be made weatherizing, etc. Especially if you can noodle out a way to save money for businesses you could generate some traffic. (I don't have any specific ideas -- just thinking out loud.)
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
I too will agree with you. Although the media and talking-heads like to promote the notion that things will change dramatically for the better once PE Obama takes office.....it ain't gonna happen. There might be a short period of irrational self-delusion to follow, but the reality of the situation will again rear its ugly irrepressible head. The chickens have come home to roost......and roost they shall.
Those who think that a problem born of too much credit can be resolved by borrowing more money on the credit card to make this months' minimum payment are going to be confronted with the mathematical error of their delusion. This, of course, includes our goverment. Peg Bundy (Married With Children) tried that once and it didn't work for her either. <G>
It might be time to lay down the carp tools or at least add a roto-tiller to the collection. Lots of gardens, rather than more fancy homes, may be in demand. That was the case back in the recession of the 70s also.
Edited 1/6/2009 10:56 am ET by HootOwl
How long to hold on? Can't answer that one for you, only you can.
Couple questions though. If you have a business plan, what are your projections? If you are not meeting those goals, what needs to change? If you don't have a written plan, how do you know what you are trying to accomplish?
Yeah, things are tough, but I'll throw a little perspective as I see it from my place. 4 years ago my volume was about 4/100s of 1% of all the permitted volume in my area. If the volume for the area drops by half, that means I need to get my volume up to 8/100s of 1%. I gotta do that by marketing, (doubling the volume) and/or changing the types of projects I take on. I've done both, but I may not have been in time. I am down about $8K net out of my business account in the last two years. (as a one-man band)
So when I hear the dire predictions, I just ask myself, "have you done everything you could to get only 8/100 of 1% of the available market? Or did you try to upsell any small project to create a little bit more market?"
I still have about 5 months cash in business accounts, (salary and overhead), and we have another 5 months of family budget in personal accounts. Schedule is soft, but it is enough to extend those figures for awhile yet. I have been looking at other options already, rather than waiting to the last moment. What I will need to see will be an uptick in leads for "wants", (finished basements, kitchens, additions), rather than the current trickle of "needs" (rot repairs, cosmetic bathroom re-dos, general repairs). if I see that, I wouldn't have a problem using my line of credit to fund me through it all, but if I don't see an improvement in leads, I am not going into debt to just try and survive. I'll sell my shop and land, and scale back even more on lifestyle. (we are pretty frugal already)
Belive it or not, some real estate is moving around here. I live in the country and we have 3 new homes going up on our 1/2 mile by 1 mile long country block. Another is supposed to be built in spring. 4 houses were built down the road in the last 2 years.
So I don't know if that gives you any ideas but that is my thinking at the moment.
Bowz
Jeremy,
I agree with a lot of what Bowz said.
I know what I have to do----and it doesn't have a whole lot to do with what other people have to do.
couple of things
for 20 plus years I have operated primarily as a seasonal business---mostly shut down by thanksgiving---don't start back up untill about St. Patricks day
this year I mostly shut down in October--won't start back up untill april 6,2009
Keep in mind that there IS work out there. Yesterday i drove my puppy to a park she likes--there is a new house being built adjacent to the park---when i drive downtown--the city is finishing up a huge new mass transit central terminal----the metro buses and greyhound will share a giant new terminal with Amtrack potentially available as well-----a few blocks away the local university is doing a huge new dormitory/retail developement -----remaking almost an entire city block
Me personally?---- my first job in 2009 will have me driving a bit out of my ordinary market--about 25 minutes away--it will be a roof for an old customer I have done a lot of work for the extended family---including THIS exact house 10 years ago( it was hit by a hail storm last summer)--
second job is a just a few blocks from my house--and immediately across from my church. I have previously roofed several houses on the blockAND the new church across the streetAND tens of thousands of cars drive past the project each day including hundreds of parishoners--so I am looking forward to setting up my yard sign there
3rd project will be some relatively small maintenace work that came to us from a referall from another breaktime regular
currently I am in early negotiations with another old customer-----several years ago he read a few of my FHB articles--contacted me and I did some roof repairs---NOW he is planning to build what we will call a "carriage house"---its an interesting garage/woodworking building on his property about 45 minutes away--it's in a historical district and we are exploring several roofing options--the top of the list is slate--he HAs the funds for the project--not financed
It's early winter---3 more months of snow, and ice damage and spring rains to come---projects will appear.
sorry to be so long winded----but PROJECTS WILL APPEAR----you just have to get them
years ago i read in a book"successfull people do the things un-successfull people are not willing to do"---- i have every confidence that YOU can be a successfull person---but you may have to make some hard choices and do some things in ordinary times you would prefer NOT to do.
ME?-- if a little old lady wants her garage painted--we might just paint it---somebody needs their gutters cleaned out--we might just do it
In 2008--a boom year for us-----I had 6 guys working untill-july 2( I was contractually obligated to complete specific work by a certain date)----2 of us then worked untill october( I kept that man-a friend of the family--working untill he qualified for un-employment)--
In 2009 I will work with my tools on----I am hiring an apprentice type employee--and the man who worked with me untill october2008 can work as a laborer with us untill he goes in the navy in May.---jobs we might have busted out in one day in 2008---we might take 2-3 days to do in 2009.-we might work only 3 days a week--we will do what has to be done.
In my case-- I am 46-- I started doing this 20 plus years ago in a local economy even WORSE than the one we are now in.---Locally--since maybe 1974 on----the news has been of one plant closing after another-lay-offs here-lay-offs there----so what is going on HERE--is old hat to me----this is how things ARE.--Other people in other locations have had better-more robust local economys----so current conditions are a huge wake-up call for them.--------- ME?- i was raised by parents who grew up during THE GREAT DEPRESSION---and i have lived my entire life in a rustbelt city-----so what's going on today is nothing new for us.
There WILL be projects----work WILL be done---YOU just have to get that work---maybe it won't be building a beautifull fireplace surround out of walnut--maybe it will be painting some old ladies garage.
YOU are a successfull person---so go get that work.
Let the other guys stay at home moping about how there aren't any building starts and how no body is hiring----YOU are successfull-- so do what THEY aren't willing to do.
Jeremy--- I wish you the very best of luck---you are young--so just remember"this to will pass"
Again--best wishes,
stephen
You indirectly make the point that there are certain tasks (like roofing) that are relatively recession-proof. People might put off getting a new roof for a year or so in down times, and buy cheaper materials, but when you need a roof you need a roof.A lot different from, say, kitchen remodeling.So one thing the OP can do is look around for jobs that, like roofing, pretty much have to be done, vs those that are discretionary.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Good point DanH as much as its roofing, here in Fla., its AC. No matter how bad the economy is, if someones air goes out in our 98 degree, 98% humidty summer, they ARE going to get it fixed! And I guess AC guys who can finance that are even better off to invite more customers!
Hey Stephen,
As always, some more good insight in your posting. I must admit, I have been applying some of what you have said in other threads and it seems to be working for me.
My question for you regarding this reply is how do you go that long without any income if you shutdown? I don't mean to be too personal but thats a long time...or is it just weather dependent anyway? I don't know about weather shut down experience as we can work year round here in FL.
Do you just budget for it or what? And I guess you are able to retain the customer base even if they have to wait?
Thanks
Mike
specifically Mike- I budget for it.
I would guess it took me about 8 years or so to get to the point that the groceries my wife buys on saturday--aren't dependent on the work i did that week------
but for years and years i would go into each winter--without enough money to get through the winter--so each spring I had to pay 'catch-up' for some months.
but each year--it got better and better.
being self employed------- I have never really been in a position that i could collect un-employment in the winter---so i had to learn to budgetas far a seasonal work goes-- i have always been suprised here on breaktime by how many people have an operation that appears very dependent on work 50 weeks a year,40 hours a week-- i have just never been able to develope my business to that point---so i had to make other arrangements.seasonally------ took a puppy outside at 6:00 A.M. this morning---- freezing rain overnight--fell on my butt HARD on level ground in my own garden next took my older black lab out next through the garage into the grass out front came back in through the garage and SHE slipped in fell INSIDE the garage----so there is just no way I would climb on roofs in the winter-- i do my best to arrange things so I don't have to-- I can't earn in the spring if I break a hip or worse doing needless work in the winter.
generally I put a lot of effort into finding and working for customers who have lived in their home for a number of years and intend to stay in their home for a number of years-THOSe are people who plan ahead and they really don't want me tearing their roof off in Jaunuary historically I rarely have had more than 2 weeks work lined up at any one time--due to a hailstorm the last 2 years were an exception--but typically if i had more than 2 weeks of work ahead of me I would have virtual panic attacks over how I was gonna get it all done.
I am absolutely certain this year I will have to tussle and scramble--- but that's what i have done for about 18 out of the last 20 plus years so i am kind of looking forward to it---it's what i know please keep in mind that i work more in the arena of " unpleasant things that MUST be done"--as Dan noted- it's not really discretionary work--and I fully understand the a lot of the folks here specialize more in projects that are highly discretionary my neighbor,I think ,illustrates this quite well.
He is a landscape contractor-typically he runs one crew doing maintenace( lawn mowing,fall cleanups etc.-and another crew doing new installations--and if REALLY busy a 3rd crew doing new installationsHe hasn't done hardly any new installations in over a yearbut the maintenace work keep chugging along--and of course the winter snow plowing,salting etc.-he will do OK with just the maintenance( all big,expensive accounts--those people don't cut their own enourmous yards!!!)---but he won't hire as much seasonal help---and you can bet THOSe he does hire will be close friends and family members Very best wishes Mike,
stephen
Interesting...thanks Stephen.
I must admit, I have never slipped on ice or frozen ground here in Fla so I am kind of spoiled as to being able to work most of the year.
And here is to owning Labs as I have two of them!!!
Mike
http://www.32north.com/prod_lite.htm
You can drive without removing them, too....or at least we do. No problems or accidents from that yet.
Much cheaper than broken bones. <G>
Edited 1/7/2009 11:02 pm ET by HootOwl
Stephen,
Thank you for your insight.
I have been scrounging up work when I can.
I call people that said they may do whatever and I suggest this is the time to do it. I've had some luck with this approach.
My name is out there and I do some networking and I have even went to people and pointed out that they have siding coming lose, would they like it fixed.
Got a call for a drywalling a garage, wants textured and painted, I generally don't paint but I gave him a price for all of it and me and lisa will paint it when it's ready.
However, I don't think I ever said I was giving up.
I am not a quitter.
My original question was how long can people go without work before they really start sweating it. I can go about 7 wks. You can go 16-20 it seems.
I am wondering what the norm is. There is no way that I will set myself up to have to work 50wks a year and have plan for winter and slow times.
I am working on selling myself. I need to get some books on that. I do not have an objective person to help me with this, Lisa would buy anythign I try to sell just because of my smile and nice rump.
The economy you talked about there is the same here. It is getting worse though, and everyones does carpentry and painting for 12 bucks an hour when the factories close. How do you compete with that?
I run on enough for now.
Thanks for your kind words,
JeremyOctober 17th, 2009
Jeremy and Lisa
Was there ever any doubt?
Not a book to help you sell yourself but a great practice arena......toastmasters. Find a group in your area and go. It's like everything else, you get back what you put in."this dog may be old but he ain't cold. And he still knows how to bury a bone."
Lattimore
http://www.rehmodeling.com
i've never heard of toastmasters, what is it?October 17th, 2009
Jeremy and Lisa
Was there ever any doubt?
http://www.toastmasters.org/I've never been involved with the organization, but I've heard a lot of good things about it.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Toastmasters is a group to hone skills at public speaking. It does have a membeership fee which is usually pretty small and well worth the investment if you need help with sales technique. http://www.toastmasters.org/Default.aspx"this dog may be old but he ain't cold. And he still knows how to bury a bone."
Lattimore
http://www.rehmodeling.com
The closest one is 20 miles from here. Think I'm gonna check them out tuesday night.October 17th, 2009
Jeremy and Lisa
Was there ever any doubt?
jeremy,
hang in there!you DON'T compete with the laid off factory worker who will paint or carpenter for $12 an hourThat's a race to the bottom-and someone will surely do it for $11/hour All I can tell you is that I find if I focus on people who have lived in their house for years--and intend to live in their house for years----well they have already been burned at one time or another by one of those $12/hour type of guys somebody that has owned their house for 20 years or so----has likely learned a few things----and they are likely to think things through-do some research and look for an operation that has been around a few years and is GOING to be around a few years It's interesting how things work----
Yesterday i typed a response to Mike---later that day i got a call from a guy I talked to back in the summer of 2007.- I did a small repair for him then but I was simply too busy to replace his roof for him at that time---------
he called yesterday--while it was snowing pretty good mind you-wats to know if I would be able to fit him in this year before the end of mayTHEN- last evening- got a call from a guy who is the grandfather of the sax. player in my sons band-- he needs work as well Neither of these jobs are sold yet rock solid----- but BEFORE we had a hail storm here 2 years ago I had a closing rate of 52%---- so I gues statitically I will close one of these 2 guys---and I got to like my chances with the guy who has been waiting a year and a half for me.
same thing can happen for you----
you come from from the grocery store one day and there are 4 projects waiting for you on your answering machine----you never know-there never seems to be a rhyme or reason to it. I probably talk to much about my self here---- but I am gonna email you a little info I would rather not post on the internet that might help you
in the meantime--- very best wishes,
stephen
ooooh.....ooooh.....ooooh
can i be on your confidential email list too ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sending you back an email.
Thank you for your input.
If we don't talk to much about ourselves on here no one would ever be helped. Our stories are what help those asking the questions. Wish I had more to talk about sometimes.October 17th, 2009
Jeremy and Lisa
Was there ever any doubt?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>but I am gonna email you a little info I would rather not post on the internetYou're not sending those nekkid pictures of yourself out again are you?http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Glad you posted that before I requested him to Email me..that was close.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
I would mail 'em--- but not for free, LOL
Stephen
Good things already said .
Like MS Ive been there for a long time.
Ive seen it all go by like him.
I had a wife that had a good job but I couldnt buy a job. Interrest rates were high so that not the situation right now . Still people couldnt borrow money because they couldnt afford the rates. Same conclusion.
I never waited . When I ran out of work I bought a house because repo houses in bad shape were dirt cheap. I knew I couldnt sell it either . I bought it and jumped on it fixing it then rented it . That was the first one . The next morning after renting it I was trying to buy another one . Every rental made money. I could have sold them all when the interrest rates dropped but I kept them because I liked the diversity. I still did jobs for people when they came up . Working 7 days per week when you have work helps pile up acorns . Cutting firewod on Sundays is an exellent example saving on fuel bills . That brings up my own saying I live by;
Theres one difference in a dollar saved and a dollar made . Theres 50 percent taxes and SS on a dollar made and none on a dollar saved.
People who save dollars have been my mentors.
Tim
Right now is a bad time of year to be concerned with it .
Years ago I used to be a painting contractor alone .
I knew like Hazlet I wouldnt be working in the winter.
What I said back then was ; whats the difference working 7-12s in the summer , taking the winter off and working 8s year round?
I was talking to my step son about it yesterday. We were having one of those kinds of talks on the way home from the job.
I said this time of year selling firewood would be good and he said yea but its seasonal. I said so is peaches . So is a lot of things and people dont do any thing else but work all year to be paid in three months or so.
Construction has always been seasonal plus feast or fammine kind of occupations .
Try working 5 ,12s in the summer and putting the extra back. You might be surprized at how much you save on a job. You save a third of the gas and the days on the job to start . Make the people a lot happier and get paid quicker. You can get a lot more done on jobs that have shut down and open time like in my business back then , an airless. Later on when I picked up drywall the same was true . Get the pump , bazooka , etc in mud they need to run all day. No money in breaking them out and have the clean up time if they dont run all day.
Some people do other stuff. I have done that too . Apples roll in the fall . Oranges and peanuts come off before christmas with a lot other things. I can make a weeks pay off a load of apples in three days . We have a lot of peaches here but I was always busy when they roll in the summer . Strawberries roll in the spring and so on.
Jan and Feb is firewood .
I knew a guy that worked carpentry that made storage buildings at his house in the winter . He sold them in the spring .
I could talk about this all night so Ill shut up.
Edited 1/8/2009 7:11 pm by Mooney
"Theres one difference in a dollar saved and a dollar made . Theres 50 percent taxes and SS on a dollar made and none on a dollar saved."
we've been misleading children for a long time with that old saying- a penny saved is a penny earned.
as i've tried to teach my son, it's worth more. and not just for the reasons you mentioned. you also don't usually have to work as hard for it!
like turning the furnace off, yes off, when i leave the house (IIRC this doesn't apply to you, but it's a good example). why should i heat the house for 8-10 hrs. when no one is here? when i get home the temp has dropped to about 58. but when i get home i don't feel cold, i feel smart. i've saved money, not wasted our resources, and it only takes a couple of minutes to get the heat back up with forced air. (forced air gas, actually, but don't know if FAG will fly in the new...climate.. around here. we'll see when i hit post.)
too many people confuse being frugal with being cheap (like my father, but that's a whole other rant, LOL). i'm not afraid to pick up the cheque, but i'm also not afraid to switch off the light.
Ive always heated with wood for this reason.
I was building a new house for a rental and a good friend of mine runs the gas company here. He wanted to know about running gas to the house and I said no thanks . You will be sorry he said . Nope I wont . I put electric water heaters on timers . I use heat pumps and I can compare those bills my renters have with the old houses I have that run gas. HUge difference .
Tim
I think the longest I ever sat home when I was on my own was two weeks.
I could have gone longer, but never did. The down side was that in order to not sit at home? Some times I sold myself short.
I'll be honest, I'm glad I'm not self employed right now.
Having said that? All I can offer is this. Been to your neck of the woods a few years ago when my son shot at the Grand American. Looks like it could be tough market in down times. Not very densely populated and an area where a lot of people are capable of doing the job if times are hard and they REALLY have to.
If the marketing and sales tricks don't work, and expanding to do jobs you might not always do, and expanding your area doesn't do it...........................................
Take a hard look at your long term goal.
Don't give up too soon. On the other hand, Don't ride it into the ground. Things will come back around........and when they do..................It would suck to be in some job you don't really love and struggling to pay off bad debt and build up enough capital to try again.
Takin a 40Hr a week job doesn't mean you have to close your business. Just means it isn't currently making enough to support itself and you.
ANd don't get too stressed ab out it.
Last night I talked to a friend of mine. All the guys we know who went into business around the same year both he and I did? Have called him looking for jobs in the last month.
Two of them work for him by the hour currently.
I definitely agree with this outlook Robert. I got lucky at the end of last year when this current project found me but I was ready to go to work for someone else...and not necessarily in construction.
You gotta do what you gotta do and there is no shame in working for someone else until things get better. For some reason many of us think we need to go down with the ship.
At any given time, I would shut my doors (once all my projects were complete) and go to work for someone else if the offer was lucrative and I would like the job. I enjoy change and some new environs so why not?
Of course in many areas a clock-punching job isn't an option either.
God is REAL, unless explicitly declared INTEGER
DanH,
Tell me about it! I was looking at going back to the building department I previusly work for and they went from a staff of 188 to 70...so no jobs there.
So I am really thankful to have the few big projects I do have...
Of course in many areas a clock-punching job isn't an option either.
That's very true. And, he may well live in one of those places.
I've just watched more than one of my friends ride it to the bottom before. Too Proud to admit that it's time to take a break and conserve what little capoital they have in order to make a comeback when things turn.
The "best" thing would be if anyone could keep their business up and running AND go out and get another job if they had to...yet be able to step back into their own work when projects come up.
Not always easy to do as it takes around $10-12k a year to keep mine up and running just for licensure, insurance, WC, etc. So its not without cost...yet not too much in the big picture of things.
One thing I have always thought about in business is wouldn't it be great when it got slow if at least one guy had a big job that could employ the others until something came up for them? I know its Utopia and goes totally against the competiton idea but it would be nice.
I have tried to do that with some of my friends in the business by trying to share work. It has worked out some but not perefectly as I never seen to get work from them as much. But hey, I look like the "good guy" sometimes so it at least feels good.
OK, nowI will stop dreaming...
You aren't the only one that shares work.
One of my acquaintances was scheduled to move, sold his house and essentially closed his business. He had everything packed and ready to move. After about 6 months, the buyers backed out of the deal at the closing table. I've given him all the work he could handle to keep him going, and tried to hook him up with even more. I'm working on getting a new house spackle job to help him out next.
Grandma used to say, "One hand washes the other..." If there were more of that, it would certainly help us through this economic mess. But that's kind of what's happening with society, we distance ourselves and the "community" suffers.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New construction - Rentals
You can wait a couple weeks and go to work for the new prez.
He is promising 3.7 million jobs, and you certainly ought to qualify for one or two.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
I cant go more than a week. (I can if I have to, but I dont think of it that way)
There is work out there, and I go after it!!!
December I was anxious, as I was finishing a good sized job and holidays are quite.
Jan 2nd was the beginning of a whole new year.
I have landed 4 small to large jobs since Jan 2nd. Yes, everyone says they are dead around here to, just get up, go out and find someone with a need, take extraordinary care of them and get the job.
Go back to all your old clients tomorrow and see if they have anything they need taken care of.
Send an email out to family and friends to ask for referrrals.
WHATEVER IT TAKES> >
I got out of corporate america because they did not appreciate what I brought to the table. (work ethic, honesty, effort, etc.) I am now in a world where they do apprieciate those things (because the client actually wins when you are honest, ethical, work hard, etc. and am not going back.