I’m interested in how long it takes you’ll to install cabinets in a small kitchen (including removal of existing cabinets). Is their a rule of thumb per cabinet?
Think condos, approx 10-15 cabinets with a total cabinet length of about 15-25 ft. if you were to line them up in a row. Generally an L with an island.
I’ve begun building and installing cabinets (I get business through referral) and each time I go into it thinking a quick in and out and it turns out to be more than that ;).
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Replies
big kitchen... moulding & laminate counters..
one skilled guy will get lost to the organization for two weeks
but really.. it sounds like you already have your own numbers... and they don't lie
use YOUR historical numbers to price future work
I can usually put in your average 15 cab kitchen in a day (the box installing part)...then on day two I add toekick, crown, knobs & pulls.
Removing cabinets & counters: about 4 hours.
Installing new tops takes another 4 hours.
A simple basic kitchen 1-3 days...assuming no drywall, painting, plumbing or electrical changes.
I don't bid "by the box" ... or by lin ft ...
but a good starting point for my bids is "one box = one hour" ...
and every part and piece ... every stick of wood ... is one box too.
demo ... is extra. Each demo job is different.
but like Mike says ... sounds like U already know your numbers.
why not believe them?
I certainly don't consider myself a "production installer" ... so "speed" doesn't even cross my mind. I'm not slow by any means ... and on a real basic design I can fly because I've worked so many complicated designs ... but I'd never think about selling myself as fast. Speed Kills ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Thanks for the feedback. I have no barometer (outside of BT).
It looks like I am on the slower end, but I am comfortable with that, a little more experience and I should get a little quicker while maintaining the quality I want.
Appreciate the reinforcement on pricing as well.
slower than me?
Impossible!
Jeff
like I say ... slow ain't bad.
when anyone mentions "speed" ... I tell them ... way I look at it ...
way after all the dust settles ... after I'm outta here and they can barely remember my name ... and one of their friends walks into the kitchen and looks around ...
the last thing they'll wanna hear is ...
"Wow, looks like the carpenter musta been really FAST!"
Fast ... ain't a compliment ....
btw ... this same line works great when talking time to a K and B place U may start subing for ... kinda gets the conversation about yer time/money back on the right track.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"way after all the dust settles ... after I'm outta here and they can barely remember my name ... and one of their friends walks into the kitchen and looks around ...the last thing they'll wanna hear is ...
"Wow, looks like the carpenter musta been really FAST!"
That's a great line! Mind if I borrow it on occasion?
-Norm
"Fast ... ain't a compliment ...."Story time!I've been doing some work on a nice house for the new owners. nive place but the kitchen is a mess and they want to add to and redo it next year.But first thing, while doing other stuff, the guy asks me to look at it and see what I can do to help it function temporarily...First thing I said was - "Well, it looks like this was thrown together here pretty fast..."story is that the previous owners were losing iot to th ebank and they had stripped the house of light fixures and kitchen cabs and appliances. The bank had a RE guy find someone - anyone - to throw a kitchen back into it so they could sell it. Fast!There is no rhyme or reason to the layout and there were things like a drawer at the end wall would not open because it hit the casing of the door right there...Two other doors on corner cabs abutting that scraped each other - or a knuckle - to get them open
No knobs or pulls on anything....cheap HD type cabs...
So I cut the wing off the drawer face end and reglued it to the cab face frame to let the drawer slide past the casing, adjusted the other doors ( he thought they'd have to make do with leaving one door off for a year) and added some pulls. Six hours work and I was a hero. Still got to redesign the whole thing now.
Most of our5 kitchens are custom cabs so we don't do premade factory boxes that often, but I am likely to spend as much time on design as on install for a premade kitchen...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,Thanks for the post. My wife and I bought a repo'd house about six months ago and have been scratching our heads over what they were thinking in the kitchen. Nice 1920 home with oak trim and floors, but cheap, bad looking cabinets in no particular order that don't quite fit the space right. Lots of liquid nails and small plywood scraps to hold the top down, only the top never got close enough to the liquid nails to stick. Along with a few other things done here, I think your story was repeated in Ohio. Cabinets are good enough to get us by a few years until we're really sick of looking at them and have time and money to replace. At least everything opens without too much sticking.
Nate
Excellent post.It's been a saying of mine for years to customers that 100 years from now people are going to look around and say, "Look at the care those carpenters took. Wasn't the craftsmanship great back then?"Speed has it's place, but I substitute "production style" for the word speed. If I have 20 windows to trim that are all the same or thereabouts, I know how to slam it out. There are tricks as you know to speeding things up without the work suffering.Cabinet installations don't have to be slow, but they should be efficient and most of all quality should never falter.In custom work, each job is different and subjective to what you have to work with.
Not counting delivery or removing the old ones (that can vary - are they all cleaned out or do you need to move and box the canned goods and dishes stacked in there? and old screws can have heads stripped needing drilling etc - and how far is it to the dumpster)
I figure an hour per unit. I count a cab as a unit whether 42" or 15" I count a filler strip as a unit. I count an end panel as a unit so an island might have four units besides the cabns themselves...
Then I upcharge if there is crown or light bar at a dollar a foot and five bucks per cut.
actuall installation doesn't usually take quite an hour per unit. sometimes I can set four units in an hour - but by time I do set of tols and pickup of parts, it works out.
You say condos - so if this is climbing stairs to the third floor there is another 50% in time right there.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I could do it in a day, or it could be a week. Depends on the expectations of the customer and the builder.
Some builders order 10 pieces of scribe moulding, and expect it done in a day.
Some customers want custom cabinets with 3 piece crown, and time is of no concern.
I wish I had a reason;
my flaws are open season
I usually install them for as long as the owners wants...
Customers tend to frown upon Temporary cabinet installs
search for "piffin screws"
Wars of nations are fought to change maps.
But wars of poverty are fought to map change.
Like others have said...
fast is not what you want on yer resume'
Fast is what the "takers" in this business want...
I like to consider my self a giver.
I give my best to make a kitchen what the customer wants...
That said, an hour a box seems good maybe 45 min.
but trim, fillers, panels, valences, returns, etc all get charged as a box.
as Jeff once said " it all depends on the knobs"
Wars of nations are fought to change maps.
But wars of poverty are fought to map change.
The secrets to a fast and good installation job.
1. Find the high spot of the floor.
2. Mark your level line 34-1/2" from the high spot.
3. Screw a leveling strip (straight 1x4s or aluminum straight edges)
on the top of the mark.
4. Shim the base cabinets to the strip.
If the base cabinets are level, the countertop is easy to install.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Do the same for the wall cabinets.
Level and screw a strip at the right height to rest the cabs.
Screw 2-3 cabs together before screwing to the wall.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
other easy steps.
A. Remove all doors and drawers.
B. Use 3 way clamps.
C. Make your fillers from large stock/fillers.
D. Use the right tools for all your cuts.
All cuts are narrow, tapered and large cross cuts.
E. Use the right size and the right type of screws.
F. Use high bond double sided tape for toe kicks-side panels-build up fillers and even crown and scribe molding. A small bit of 1/32" VHB tape is priceless for keeping the stuff together until you can shoot few pins.
Don't forget the knobs.
It takes 5 minutes to make a good templet and save one hour of measuring.
good luck
david
I learned from a lazy man.
Edited 3/11/2007 9:09 am ET by davidwood
Edited 3/11/2007 9:10 am ET by davidwood
Great post. So, my questions are:What kind of screws do you use. Most guys I see use drywall course thread. I don't want to do that.What is VHB tape and where is it available.Any tricks I can learn are going to help.
GRK makes a cabinet hanging screw. Many cab factories ship with screws. Any structural screw will work, though might need predrill and countersink with some.That last thing on God's fgreen earth that should be used is a sheet rock screw! They are only made strong enough for sheetrock. Tell those guys that cabinets are not made out of paper and gysum and once loaded weigh a lot more than sheet rock per screw.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I usually use the supplied screws to put the cabinet to the wall. I was refering to connecting the cabinets through the stiles. Most guys I know use drywall there.
bad and ugly...I use brass plated mcfeelys oe equivalent...you ever have a piffin screw (DWS) break in a face frame, and you will never do it again...Wars of nations are fought to change maps.
But wars of poverty are fought to map change.
That's something I've always worried about.Jeff said he uses McFeely's also. Which ones? I didn't see anything I thought was good under cabinet screws, but looking for brass plated, I'm guessing you use the flat head #8 x 2"?
View Image
McFeeleys sells similar. This is a pic from Rockler ... not sure where I bought the last in bulk. May have been Rockler, now I think about it. I just look for designs that make for "self drilling" ... even though I predrill. Coupla nubs under the head is better too.
I'm not dedicated to any one brand ... have bought from both Mc and Roc ....
I also stock some 1/2, 3/4 and 1" little screws that for all appearances look like little drywall screws ... till U look closer and see the "neck" is thicker just below the head.
the black color throws everyone off ... never had one of them snap either.
Might even be "drywall" screws ... but in those lengths ... never a problem.
They have better "bite" that same length traditional wood screws.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
2', 2-1/4", 2-1/2"...
some face frames are wider
Wars of nations are fought to change maps.
But wars of poverty are fought to map change.
Worst place. incidence of breakage even higher there.see - the SR screw is a brittle cheaper metal than a wood screw. So when you drive it into hardwood, the tension at the shoulder to shank is too extreme and it fractures. That is not a problem in SR because there is no real tension in paper.I have an assortment of GRK screws in a lot of sizes. Other guys buy from McFeeley's. Lotta good choices out there. SR screws are the worst of the bad.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Good stuff here, sometimes you need to be be "fast" to make some money I did 300+ kitchens in a converted townhouse complex. In that job there was maybe 6 different layouts you got pretty fast, but still not so fast as to compromise quality.
As with anything there are variables if you can walk into a kitchen and have all the cabinets unboxed and in order, with somewhat level and plumb conditions things go fast but still with quality. Like Jeff Buck said I don't want someone walking in saying "wow that guy put those up fast" unless it is followed by "and he did a great job".
As for screws I don't use sheetrock screws they can be used on the base units but for uppers they don't have the shear strength. I use a cabinet screw from McFeely's a square drive and it contersinks itself then I pop in a plastic cap that matches the cabinet color. For the frameless cabs I use the same thing just shorter for cab to cab connection. Remember people will load the cabinets with as much stuff as they can and that stuff gets heavy. I want the cabinet to fail before those screws pullout.
by the time we figure out what parts are missing decifer the print load in and out our tools that a break and lunch at least one cabinet per hour on an average. Just to install.
I never did a breakdown like that and I hope I never have to. to me a cabinet an hour sounds a little too quick. it takes time just to cut up and dispose of the cardboard
on my kitchens I do it all. most of them get updated electrical, plumbing, tiled backsplash's, reconfigure the appliance layout, new lighting, drywall tape & paint, trim, hardware, new floor etc.. soup to nuts as they say.
I also find the high spot on the floor and try to work with that. I always scribe the finished end panels to the floor. I think putting shoe mould against a finished end is just poor workmanship.
if that end panel is at the high spot then the rest of the cabinets just get shimmed up. if the high spot is in the middle of the run the end panel still gets scribed and the ajoining cabinets get cut down (within reason) and shimmed level.
things like that take time and I would'nt expect it from "joe the cabinet installer"
Ya Know, everybodies mentioned the floor level, but that part is easy compared to the wall straightness.When we install to our own walls, things go great, and when the granite guy makes his templates, he mentions how my kitchens are the straightest and squarest he's ever worked to, but for re-fitting cabs to old condo units, I would be expecting a lot of head scratching over the corners and walls...
That can eat a ton of time
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
good point.
I dont do much new construction and even when I do I'm not the one who framed it. I've had to put fillers where two cabs should just butt together because of a wow in the wall
When I started out years ago I worked with a guy that would demo, install all in one longass day. Needless to say , it was'nt long before I hated it.
I don't sell speed, I sell craftmanship.
If you think I'm working under a gun, I'll point one back at you!
A steady, confident pace is the best!
I have a saying: The last work that you do is the first work the people see.
Edited 3/11/2007 9:20 pm ET by mjcwoodworks
I have been using the fast cap screws. http://www.fastcap.com/prod2.asp?page=powerheads. They are holding these guys up.
These are the cabinets I built and installed in my place... you can see there is still a door to finish and some little things I need to get to. I was waiting to post until it was all done, but couldn't wait.
View Image
IMO the best screws for hanging cabinets are the GRK screw Piffin mentioned:http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/CAB_1_information.htmThose cabinet screws have thinner shanks so they are easier to run in and cause less splitting (the steel is of such high strength that these screws are as strong other thicker screws). The screws are torx so stripping is not an issue and are self-tapping. The heads have an integral washer to resist pull through. They are great for cabinet installing!I also use GRK trimhead screws to join faceframes:http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/TRIM_0_information.htm