How many carpenters are on your crew?
buildingbill
| Posted in General Discussion on
I was in a development recently and saw a crew of 6 and a crew of 8 framers building two different homes. Both have lulls and thought must be expensive to run with so many people. Just the ins premiums must get high. Asked a friend who has a 4 man crew and he said the 8 man group works together all the time and wern’t together for just this job. The houses were around 4000’square. Are big crews coming back?
Replies
including me, 1. new construction trim/kitchens, doors, and some small remodels.
Most "bigger" crews I run into are 3 or 4, depending on the amount of equipment. Usually 2 skilled and 1 or 2 helpers. I'm not sure that the size of the crew has anything to do with quality, or speed.
The exception is concrete crews. They seem to have 6-8 guys.
We frame 80% new construction and about 20% additions/remodels. Right now we are down to three of us with a machine. Four would probably be a bit more comfortable, but I let go of a guy a month and a half ago cuz he wasn't working out, and I'm not going to settle for another "warm body" just to say we've got four guys. Until then, we'll pick up the slack. We're working on a 4500 sq ft home right now and are actually ahead of schedule.
Anywho.... we frame anything from smaller additions up to new work around 5000 sq feet in a timely manner. Much bigger than that, and I think I'd need to upsize to keep things on schedule for the GC.
However, a very good friend of mine has a framing company as well. He runs a 10 man crew without a machine. I'd say he makes a bit more money than me, but he's also been in business for quite a bit longer than I have and has some employees that have been with him for quite a long time. That means his guys help run the crew and can pretty much run the show without him onsite. A couple times a month my wife and I go out to dinner with this guy and his wife (she was in our wedding party and he was in attendance... good friends of ours) and it's a heck of a lot of fun to compare "war stories" about running the crews.
As best I can tell, my machine has replaced the fifth man on the crew quite nicely. If it could push a broom, straighten up the lumber piles, and get me a coffee, I'd have to say it has replaced the fourth guy as well... but it hasn't. Based on 2000 hour year the machine only costs me about $11 hour! That's it. You can't beat that with a stick. And I'll own it in 5 years. Realisticly, we work closer to 2500 hours a year, so the machine probably costs me closer to $9 an hour. And... what a freakin' awesome write-off at tax time!!!
I'd probably hire another couple guys and tackle some bigger houses if I could just find the right guys. My hats off to anyone who can staff a big crew like that and keep it organized and efficient. I'm just not there yet. I've found that when my crew gets too large (I've had five in the past) I spend my day putting out fires, correcting, and teaching "my way". I produce very little myself when the crew gets larger than four. For us... where we're at right now... I need to be onsite producing even it's just cutting at the horses all day or doing layout.
All in good time I suppose. I make it a point to constantly teach when I can so that my guys continue to learn new things. They like the challenge, it keeps them interested, and it's good for the long term health of the business I think.
Good topic. I'm curious to see what others have noticed.
Edited 7/16/2005 10:38 pm ET by dieselpig
Thanks for the insights.
Will follow this thread.
We are running a crew of four at the moment. Two skilled mechanics (Frank and I) and two apprentices, no laborers.
Everyone does business in their own way. We could go to 8 guys and pound through faster with lower margins. Either way, the money is similar.
Builders tend to want things fast and in their eyes, bigger crews are better because of the time cost of money. It takes a bit of negotiating skill to convince a builder that our small crew will be better than the competition, when we first connect with a new propsect. In most cases, the builder is somewhat desperate and accepts us because a small crew is better than no crew.
Of course, since we have a Skytrak and boom truck, we point out that it makes our small crew most effective.
The one major problem with running small crews is that it's almost impossible to start another job somewhere while the remainder of the crew finishes a house. As a result of this inefficiency, the timing of a new start must coincide with a finish, or a builder must be willing to wait. After establishing a good relationship, most quality conscious builders will wait a couple of weeks, but everyone has their limits.
One solution to the small crew dilema is to work for larger production builders that employ multiple crews. The problem with that is that they pay lower and you become a glorified employee of theirs and are subject to their oft changing whims. Its not the most desirable situation to be in because a simple change of project managers can make your life a living hell.
Another solution is to sell retail, but then another entire set of problems creeps in.
blue
I thought you were gettting away from that whole racket?
We are all in this together.
http://www.hay98.com/
Gunner, I am. Slowly.
I'm still out in the field this month and next month, but I haven't committed to September.
I am however in the midst of a subdivision negotiation. If that happens, Frank will be busy for the next few years, but I'm still going to head South.
blue
I was talking about working for GC's. I thought you were going into spec houses or something.
We are all in this together.
http://www.hay98.com/
We are in the process of doing that, but we have to continue framing for cashflow till we have some closings.
We have contracted with several clients at the retail level however.
blue
Cool I was hoping you weren't gonna drop that. Your one of the good guys I wish only the best for you.
We are all in this together.
http://www.hay98.com/
cashflow?
what happened to not needing any money to build yer own and get rick quick?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
get rick quick?
That my friend is an overstatement. I've never advocated get rich quick. Everything I talk about is work, serious work.
Montly cashflow is much different than say, equity building. We all need a certain level of cashflow, no matter how frugal we are. Currently, I expend quite a bit, especially when you consider that I don't have a mortgage on my primary abode.
And if you really want to have a discussion about finding other people's money for investment opportunities, let's go. Just last week my Chiropractor agreed to look at any investment opportunity in the building industry that I run across. He's a classic case example. I first met him back in the eighties. He was an idealist and was more focused on family, than income. Back then, he only worked three days a week, even though he could easily fill his appointment book for six days. I asked him if he's still working the same schedule. He is, but since his kids are older, he puts in a half day on Tuesday afternoon.
Why would a guy like that want to invest in something I bring him? Because I'd be bringing him a bricks and mortar opportunity and he's been taking a beating in the stock market (I have too). He doesn't want an investment that will add time to his schedule, because he's set in his ways. Were a perfect fit! I know about building, he has extra money built up in his IRA's, that is losing 15% per year since the dot.com bust.
My biggest problem is that I'm in transition. I KNOW I will soon be living in another state and investing a substantial amount of time, energy and money into a retail business. I'm lucky to have a partner that will be "stuck" here completing anything that we get going with the current negotiations that we already have entered into.
Jeff, I don't mind that you're skeptical. People live in the realities that they create for themselves. If you think money is hard to find, you'll have a hard time finding it. I didn't look for money till only recently. I probably would have been a better candidate to build a 300 home subdivision when I was in my 30's. By the time I was in my 40's, I was already the type of guy like my Chiropractor or Hazlett. I used to only work till noon every day, then went off and coached soccer at the high school with my kids. You couldnt have given me a 300 home sub to build back then but I, along with my business partner who is young and ambitious, are ready now.
When the student is ready, the teacher appears.
blue
Nice to see you are teaching your guys as you build. My first employer attached me to his side for the first couple of houses we worked on then he placed me in the crew seemed like an easy transition looking back.
Too many times I see guys just sitting around waiting to be told to do something.My electrician just had a 7000' house {before the indoor pool}framed. The only way the framer would do the job was a weekly pay schedule 40hrs/man. Electrician friend said nobody wnated the job all too busy so a builder with his own crew who he does all of his work sent in a crew. Electrician asked builder why 2 guys seemed to be siting around alot and builder replied "They haven't got the skills to do what was needed at the time."
Imagine if someone took the time to teach these guys!!
'
What machine? That one you posted a pic of back-along? What DID it do beside look cute?
(sorry, Bill, for the interruption)ciao for niao
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
Not at all...I wish I had a Lull when I was younger. I once asked first framer I worked for why don't we get a lull and he took out a marker and wrote" Lull" on the back of my shirt. Was a day when I carried 2 bundles of shingles up a ladder when we did roofs. Now I sub roofing out to the younger guys if the job is too big.
"I once asked first framer I worked for why don't we get a lull and he took out a marker and wrote" Lull" on the back of my shirt."
That about says it all. LOL
?????
Are you being sarcastic or were you actually asking a question?
Why the capitalized "DID"?
Sorry.... I just don't get your post.
A little explanation please?
Whoops...not sarcasm, genuine Q.
DIDN"T mean 'DID', meant 'DOES', as in "what does it do?"
ciao for niao
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
Edited 7/17/2005 7:03 pm ET by piko
Now that I've got a minute to get back to you...
What does the machine do? A lot. In fact I'm finding that the more I use my imagination, the more things I find that I can do with it that save time and labor.
First the obvious stuff... moving lumber around and locating it where it's readily accessible... like on the deck. In MA many of the sites are very tight as land is at such a premium. They pack big houses on tiny lots and frequently max out the ratio of allowable buildable space on the lots. The machine helps us pile up the lumber nice and high so it doesn't take up the whole lot. I stack it according to how we'll be using it. First drop.... I stick the 1/2" sheathing and studs in the back with the header stock on top. Then the 3/4" decking in front of that. Joists and rim in front of that, and beams in the very front. Next drop... same thing.
There's gotta be nothing worse than showing up at a new frame and seeing the mudsills you need first at the bottom of the lumber pack.... under all the joists, decking etc. Quick and easy to get organized with the forklift.
With my small crew and the machine I really don't need a dedicated laborer. I've got two pretty good carpenters and myself. I pay my guys really well because I don't want them wandering off to greener pastures. I don't have a problem with paying them well, and they earn it, but I really don't want to pay them to lump 3/4" subfloor up the the second floor either. One scoop and I boom it right up to them with the glue, glue gun, nails, and sledge on top of the stack. Ready to go.
Before the deck does down, I cut all the joists on the ground, stack 'em on the machine and boom them up to the walls where the guys just pull them off and lay them in position to roll-up. I boom all the way out and then slowly boom in as they pull and drop. I re-load while they roll and nail.
After the deck is down we'll boom up a lift of studs, then a lift of 1/2" ply, then the pre-cut header/door/window parts package. Literally 10 minutes after the deck is down, we're up there doing what we're supposed to be doing... building the walls. Instead of spending the rest of the day stocking the deck.
Same thing with roofs. I stand on the ground and cut the roof... stack it on the machine, boom it up, and they have half of it nailed together by the time I climb up there to assist.
With some nice nylon slings of various lengths that I've purchased we can set steel and monster lvls quite comfortably and safely. No more huffing them up extension ladders and trying to nail 'em off and beat the whip out of 'em at the same time. We just knock them together on the horses, sling 'em, and set 'em. Nice and easy and my back thanks me.
With the work platform I purchased today, we have a quick, safe, platform from which to work at pretty much any height and location. More times than I care to admit, I've built staging that took longer to build than the work I built the staging to reach! The platform is quick, safe, and temporary. Perfect for framing. It's also great for setting and nailing off windows.... especially the big mothers.
With the 30' slings, we can also stand gables and walls that are framed, sheathed and even trimmed that would really tax the wall-jacks. And we can do it safely, without anyone standing under them.
There's so many other worktools I would love to have for my machine too. I will continue to acquire them as cash allows. I'd love to get a general purpose bucket for moving snow around the site in the winter and for throwing scrap into. We could just leave the bucket up near the second floor window, swamp out the floor, and go right to the dumpster with it. Another labor saver.
I'd also like to get a truss boom eventually. That would give us an additional 12'-15' of reach with the machine and would enable us to reach even deeper into some of these big houses for raising walls and setting beams.
Sky's the limit (no pun intended) as far as I can see it with these versatile machines. Seems like the more I wrap my head around it, the more jobs we can accomplish in a safe and timely manner. I've got a medium sized machine... capable of lifting 7000lbs and a maximum lift height of 44.3 feet. Seems like plenty of machine for what we do. With four wheel steering, the turning radius is insane... 12.5 feet.... that's about as good as my wife's Honda Civic. With crab-steer I can get that thing into some spots you wouldn't believe. They really are pretty amazing machines.
Sorry to all for the hi-jack. Hindsight says I probably should have answered this in private or another thread. My bad.
Don't apologize for anything. I am impressed by how much a machine like that can do. I come from a time when only masons used these machines on a regular basis. When I started framing, labor was really cheap I was getting $5.00/hr before taxes a machine like yours was considered a luxury or something for big condo jobs. Seems like you are pretty satisfied with the size and capability of your crew.
I can see you finding other tasks to perform with your equipment. If you do let me know.
question for everyone...how much are you paying each member of your crew? don't forget to mention what area you're in, since I'm sure this varies by region
Edited 7/21/2005 11:59 am ET by jcrew2
Brian,
You so rock.... Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Brian,
You so rock....
What'd I do?
I'm with Maines on this.We were just discussing "equipment" while on lunch this week.
Here's some of the talk;
"a lull costs around $100,000""you'll need a dumptruck plus trailer to haul it...more $$$""A Bobcat will help us out alot.""so on and so on".BTW, what you hauling it with?
Tiz,
You can buy a great machine for 40K. That is a no brainer to me, when you see a lot of these framers driving giant lifted Ford or Dodge trucks. The VR90B we bought, we could still sell for about 5K less than we bought if for after almost three years of use!
Our excavator moves it for us for $100. Anything within 5 miles, we drive it on the road with a lead car and chase car early in the morning when there is no traffic.
I agree Tim.
I used to be anti-machine. The machines that I had been offered in the eighties were prone to tipping and I formed the opinion that they were dangerous back then. I decided that a boom truck would be better for me.
I now have a new machine and and old boom truck and like both for different reasons. If I really had to choose only one, I'd choose the Skytrak. It has so much more lifting power and therefore is so much faster. The boom truck would tip over if I tried to lift anywhere near the lifting power that the Skytrak has. The crane is rated at 15 tons or something like that, but who needs 15 tons of lifting power only three feet away from the cab!?
Machines replace at least one laborer. They never come late, they don't complain and they make a lot of hard jobs easier. I would never again consider working for someone that didn't own and use one. I don't mind hard work and exercise, but my lower vertabraes are thankful for the forklifts.
blue
Ya made me remember when we were framing a subdivion with an old Hyster forklift...pulling it out the mud, standing on a pallet etc.
We thought we had it good. You got it by the balls with that machine! Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Brian,I had a question for you. Tim already answered that they can get their machine moved for $100. How much is it for you?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
It usually costs me $150 for most moves. That's the dump, the trailer, and the driver for an hour or and hour and a half. I have two friends that own excavators and dumps so there's always one of them available when I'm looking for a move.
Brian, don't apoligize, I'm going to print out your response to show my boss. Even as a frame-to-finish company, I think a Lull makes more sense than any other purchase. We usually have 2 or 3 jobs going at once; I think the machine would be in constant use.
Mike
Mike, if you guys do that much work (3 projects at a time frame to finish), I can't see how you could go wrong with the purchase. When you really break the numbers down, they make all the sense in the world.
Tell your boss to stay away from any "Rental Purchase Agreement" deals. They seem like a really good deal at first, but when you calculate the interest rate out for a year, it works out to about 15%!!! Just buy it outright.... they have great resale value if it isn't a good fit with your business.
Only problem with buying a machine (Caterpillar in particular) is that you'll soon find that you've caught a case of Yellow Fever. It's very serious matter. You'll find yourself drooling over at Machinery Trader.com at all the attachments and other machines that you've now decided you "need". LOL. Think I'm kidding?
Mike,
A few years ago, we had one 3 man framing crew and one trim guy. We bought an old 1970's forklift and right away we all fell in love. Since then, that machine has become unreliable and about almost 3 years ago we bought an 1998 Ingersoll Rand VR90B for $40K. That has been a great machine and extremely reliable. We've had a couple of loose wires that needed to be fixed and that is it.
This year, we thought we were going to be running 2 full time framing crews with about 3 or 4 guys on each crew, two full time trim guys, and possibly a siding crew. As things turned out, we let go of 4 guys. So we have one 4 man framing crew (5 with my cousin helping in the summer) 2 trim guys and a helper. When we were gearing up, we researched and bought a 2002 Ingersoll Rand VR 1056 with about 700 hours for about $87K. Not cheap, but this machine lifts 10,000 lbs and reaches 56' into the air.
On the one hand, that was a lot of money to spend on a machine, especially when we already have a reliable machine, but that VR90B was already paid for and makes us money. The newer machine has already helped us out immensely. This house we are one and the one right before this, would have taken forever with all the scaffold building, but with a machine it took a few minutes.
If you side and have a platform, you can side a section of house in the time it would take to set up staging and get materials where you need them. Then when you are done siding, you drive away and your done.
Brian,
Good post! I'll try and take some pics this week of the house we are siding. With the platform, it is flying. We were able to get the little 10' platfrom into the back with the little forklift, but we did not want to use ladder jacks and a plank to side. We strapped the plank to the platform, loaded it up with Hardi and then our 10' platform, became 24' when you walk out to the edge of the plank :-)
define carpenter......
as far as me, 5 guys, 3 highly skilled, two summer labor, and I dont break it down, but then again, Im not time and materils either, but I have had a customer ask, are they consting me the same hourly ????
As far as workable 5 is a bad number at times, its hard to keep everyone going full speed at one job. but there are many times I can, and time where 5 is one short
and not meaning to steal the thread
so if you have 5 guys on your crew, do you charge the same hourly for each or give a discount
if you have 5 guys and 3 are highly skilled and 2 are laborers , do you break it out and give a break
I think, ideally for me and my style, 3 is the number I like
Right now our company (frame to finish) has two guys on one job, five guys on another job, and five guys on my job. The two-man crew is doing a small job, and when it's done they will be absorbed into one of the bigger crews. Some of the other guys bounce between crews as well.
Eight is the biggest crew we'll run--it gets kind of hectic to manage that many guys, and only works when there are different things to do. A few guys roofing, a few guys sidewalling, a few inside framing up interior walls.
On my current job the garage/guest house is almost done on the exterior and the main house we'll start framing the first floor this week, so there's lots of projects for lots of different carpenters and subs. Two of us are sharing foreman duties so that helps control the chaos.
Mike
I work for a high end builder in my area. I am one of five carpenters on staff, but seldom do we all work together. Our company mainly subs the framing out, leaving the finish work for us. Generally there are a couple projects going at once, so we can be spread.
Currently I am working as a site manager on a 6700 footer that the framer has as many as 8 men on and as little as one. They were shorthanded when we started, so I worked with them framing walls and roof.
That company is a three way partnership, with 5 other employees. It seems they usually are able to spread between a few jobs to keep everyone working. I've seen plenty of time wasted on that crew on my job. Lots of standing and waiting. The boss(es) don't really seem to have control over the guys and their time management. This is a good example of the more the workers, not always better production.
When I framed all the time, Our ideal crew was usually four. One helper to one good carpy. I have experienced when one good cutter can keep two carpys going very efficiently, however.
Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
in our department, currently, probably 20 with 6 of those foreman.
in our company, maybe 80 or 90
carpenter in transition