Replies

1. 
   Fred_Matthews | Mar 09, 1999 10:53am | #1

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   Jon-
   # of bathrooms is more significant than sq footage. I would recommend 2-1/2 baths and a bedroom for ea child, then figure what sq footage you need for your own comfort.

2. 
   Guest_ | Mar 09, 1999 06:47pm | #2

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   Jon,interesting question.I have also noticed that often "fine" is equated with BIG.I currently live in the same neighborhood I grew up in, and at that time most houses here had 3 bedrooms,1 bath and 6 kids living with their natural parents.It seems todays families have 1.7 children and parents on their 2nd or 3rd marriage and for some reason this requires them to construct houses with 4 bedrooms,3 baths,a great room,and a battle ship sized deck poking out into their 1/2 acre back yard.I often am called into these neighborhoods to repair roofs on houses that are only a couple of years old and I am always amazed at how dead and empty they are.I will see lawn crews cutting grass,and I am there fixing the roof but there are no other signs of life.All the kids(1.7)are in day care and both parents are at work and the FINE home sits empty.Perhaps if people would equate FINE with a smaller size and First Rate materials and craftsmanship instead of the biggest vinyl sided vanity box,they would have the time and resources toplay with their own kids and cook in their own kitchens.How much time and natural resources are wasted in bumper to bumper traffic by the inhabitants driving to and fro? Build yourself a a little diamond instead of a big piece of zirconium and maybe you , and more importantly,your children will be able to have a LIFE instead of a lifestyle. Best Wishes ,Stephen QUESTION in a 2 1/2 bath house what do you bathe in the 1/2 bath? Only your right side or only your left?

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 09, 1999 06:55pm | #3

   *I raised my 2 kids in a 1600 sq ft quad (the footage included the basments) We managed with 1 1/2 baths. A person only occupies 9 sq ft, and since there were four of us, we could have huddled in 36' quite comfortably. I grew up in a 900' 3 br, with a full basement. Thats 1800' to me, but the quad was layed out such, that it seemed much larger!The size of the house doesn't make it better, the fit though is critical. Make your house fit your needs, and the people in it make it a home. Be happy with whatever you have!Blue

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 09, 1999 06:58pm | #4

   *Steve, I've noticed the same thing in the neighborhoods that I work in. It's a rarity when I see kids running around happy, and I always stop and take notice!LIving in the rat race can take a huge toll! I chose to raise my family with essentially one income, and a spotty one at that. We were better off though!Blue

3. 
   JR_ | Mar 09, 1999 09:36pm | #5

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   I would highly recommend the book "The Not So Big House, by the architect Sarah Susanka" that is about these same ideas. She has alot of good ideas including building small and cozy spaces that actually get used instead of the typical high ceiling greatroom concept that is primarily to impress guests. She uses the analogy of how as kids we all put blankets over chairs to make small tents because the smaller spaces were more comfortable to us. After reading this book, we redesigned our house to smaller dimensions with more emphasis on nice finish details and other conveniences.

1. 
   Steven_Kreitz | Mar 09, 1999 11:16pm | #6

   *Dear Jon,A great question, and one close to my heart.After working with an architect in the same firm as Sarah Susanka to design our home four years ago, our family of 5 and 1/2 (6 by the end of the year) are living in a 1,500 foot half-completed rambler with a un-finished basement (yes, I broke the cardinal sin of telling my wife "leave the building to me".)With 3 boys (so far) under the age of 4, the key space in the house is the un-finished basement, aka "the playroom". They race, swing, slide, jump, fall and generally destroy whatever is down there. We live in 2 bedrooms now, and have one complete bath. But we're happy. On our architects' recommendations, we elliminated the "formal" living and dining rooms, and combined a large family room and a really large kitchen and island. We also reduced the "formal" entry to a 5' x 5' space with a closet and alcove, and opted for a BIG mud room (which I should have installed a fire hose and drain in) and attached laundry. I've been a subscriber to FHB for 12 years now, and am always amazed at the size of the "homes" featured in the mag, as well as the homes that I'm building in the suburbs now. Come on, who really needs a 5 car garage or a 20' x 20' library???Sarah Susanka's book is good, though very general in nature. But I agree with the principal that there is always a trade-off between the Quality, Quantity and Cost triangle. I really believe that alot of the tracts out there (at least in my neck of the woods) will be bulldozed in 50 years.OK, I'm ready to be fried on the griddle now...>Living with the chaos of three little 100% boys (not to mention a wife who wants doorknobs this weekend),Steve

4. 
   Guest_ | Mar 10, 1999 03:47am | #7

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   I'll take that 5 car garage (I still have room on my lot)!

   Your wife wants doorknobs? Shes a fussy one eh?!

   Your basement comment brings up a story. I knew a builder, who had a few boys. He told me that his youngest one had worn out several soccer balls. Seems he would spend hours down in the basement kicking the ball off the wall.

   Well since the older boys were starting to entertain, the builder decided to finish the basement. He lavishly decked it out: pool table, video center, carpeting, oak trim.

   I saw the young guy, and asked him how he liked his new basement. The kid shot back "It's pretty cool, but I liked it better before. I don't have anywhere to kick the ball anymore'!

   I left mine raw until all the kids were ready for drywall!
   

   Blue

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5. 
   brisketbean_ | Mar 10, 1999 06:53am | #8

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   gentlemen;

   I was raised with enough siblings to do drastic harm to the enviroment (10) myself included, and two parents in a 800 ft 3 bedroom 1 bath with a full unfinished basement. It was a little too cozy
   for me, but would probally suit my 6 year old son
   pretty well, as he has recently moved into his favorite birthday present, a cardboard box that was the former home of a 40 gallon hot water heater.

   The houses that we build are usually 10000 ft and bigger and house an average of 4 people. My home is an old victorian with about 2300 ft and fits my family of 4 very well. I know how expensive funiture is and cant fathom how people can afford or justify filling these gigantic spaces with stuff. The last house we finished was for a pair of doctors, husband and wife who had 2 adolescent children and got thier excersise going to the kitchen from the bedroom to get a glass of water. The house was 14 thousand feet and just completely obscene to my way of thinking. I told my boss we should of charged by the mile instead of the footage.

   A friend of mine and former employer is building a 55 thousand square foot house in Dallas for a customer that dosent want to be closed in, his houses start at about 200.00 dollars a square foot.

   Eccl.5 10-12

6. 
   Guest_ | Mar 10, 1999 07:23am | #9

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   Amen

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 10, 1999 07:25am | #10

   *House sizes are as varied as the personalities of the owners.However, with the aging baby boomers, we are seeing the return of the small house, or refered to as an EMPTY NESTER, and the huge monster house of years gone by.I don't know the perfect size of house for others, but I do know that over the years I have worked for people that represented the .7 part of the equation.Blue did you say you left your basement raw until the kids WERE READY TO DRYWALL?Way to go. If they're old enough to crawl, they're old enough to dust.

7. 
   KC_Oneill | Mar 10, 1999 07:40am | #11

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   Most of the contractors I know, including me, have collected over the years entirely to much shit. I can't throw a leftover 1/2 sheet of plywood but by the same token can't justify going all the way back to the shop from worksite to get it when all I need is a half sheet.
   So waht is ideal for 1.7 kids......how much junk do you need to store?

1. 
   KC_Oneill | Mar 10, 1999 07:41am | #12

   *Most of the contractors I know, including me, have collected over the years entirely to much shit. I can't throw out a leftover 1/2 sheet of plywood but by the same token can't justify going all the way back to the shop from worksite to get it when all I need is a half sheet. So what is ideal for 1.7 kids......how much junk do you need to store?

8. 
   Guest_ | Mar 10, 1999 09:15am | #13

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   Jon...I can relate to your feeling. Here in the silicon valley, surprisingly, the bigger the home the quicker the thing gets sold. Now I say surprisingly because with the cost of housing around these parts, you would think that the smaller the house, the more affordable it would be, and the more people would want it. Not true. Modest sized homes (say 1400 sq ft) go for around 300 to 450 thousand, depending on location, and only have two or three bidders competing against each other for the right to buy.

   In the hot market are homes in the 2200 to 3400 sq ft range. These are going for anywhere between 650 K to 950 K dollars in good shape. Some, even in bad shape, go for this much in the prime areas.

   A TRUE HAPPENING! A new subdivision opened nearby with two story homes in the 1950 to 2400 sq ft range, with virtually no yard on any side (a six foot set back on the sides and 12 feet in the back yard), were selling at an asking price of 450 K to 550 K dollars. People were camping out in lines Friday night to get their bid in before the things was sold that Saturday mourning. There's a story floating about that someone bought one of the first homes to go on the market about 6 months ago, turned around a sold the same home for a hundred thousand over the price she paid for it.

   Happily living tiny and cheap...mine is 24 yrs old and works for me at 1200 sq ft.

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 10, 1999 10:03am | #14

   *KC,Just cleaned out all my scrap, put it in the paper, and sold it all for a twenty today with one stipulation; That he take everything I had! He did and oh am I happy!....Empty space is the most valuable thing I own,Jack : )

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 10, 1999 11:09am | #15

   *Steve:I can use a 5 car garage. Of course I need it detached so the air tool noise and the paint fumes will not disturb my family!A 20 x 20 library will be perfect also, so I have room to keep my hobby literature in one place. Also there will be more room to buy more Taunton books! It is just that I also need shelves in the room to hold the books & FHBs. The home libraries I see have maybe one wall of shelves, and then other furniture in the room like desks, love seats, pull out beds, etc. Those items need to be in a den or family room.I want stacks like the public library. And a card catalog so I could find my CABO and NEC when I need it. Oh yes, and the library assistant to put the books back so I could find them.I could use the fire hose and drain in a mud room too. How about floor drains in the bathroom to make cleaning up after the kids easier?Frank

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 10, 1999 06:24pm | #16

   *Put me down for one of those 20' x 20' libraries with the public library stacks. It would be nice to be able to shelve my books properly for once.Always seem to be looking for one volume or other.....somewhere around here....Rich Beckman

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 10, 1999 08:44pm | #17

   *My family roof was stuffed with "good" pieces of left over materials. Oak, cedar, birch, you name it, I had it. The trouble was, I couldn't find it, nor do anything with it (there wasn't enough room).I cured myself by paying someone to haul it all away!The 50$ was a wise investment, cause I don't bring the crumbs home any more, unless I have a specific use for them!Blue

2. 
   Guest_ | Mar 10, 1999 08:46pm | #18

   *That's funny Jack, that is exactly how I felt after I got rid of mine!Blue

3. 
   Guest_ | Mar 10, 1999 08:50pm | #19

   *It's hard for me to fathom houses priced at that much for so little. Is the price of the land the biggest factor?HOuses are selling at about 100 oer foot including property arond here, depending on amenities.Blue

4. 
   Guest_ | Mar 10, 1999 09:10pm | #20

   *Blue,Age and wisdom sneaking up on us kids?J

9. 
   Steve_B_ | Mar 10, 1999 09:50pm | #21

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   Jon,

   My wife and I live in a restored turn of the century home on a large(1/3 acre) lot near the downtown of a large city. I point this out because I think privacy, either indoors or out, is not just a luxury. Ironically, it seems that smaller city lots require more indoor space to attain privacy. Since the house was already built, we have to work with what's here. Basically we have 1500 square feet on the 1st floor and 1400 walkable square feet tucked under the roof on the second floor. The full basement is dedicated to my woodworking shop. The second floor was gutted so it's not habitable. So as it stands, we quite happily live in 1500 square feet with a large yard. We have 2 dogs and no kids. Anything smaller would seem cramped.

   SteveB

1. 
   Steven_Kreitz | Mar 10, 1999 10:50pm | #22

   *Wow, Steve C, I aggree with Blue -- I can't believe those prices, though I've heard that that's not uncommon around the Bay area. But I was also struck by what you said right off -- "the bigger it is, the faster it sells". I aggree with your analysis. I think the realtors in my area convince/persuade potential new homeowners that bigger is ALWAYS better, that $75/sq ft is ALWAYS better than $125/sq ft, that a new home MUST have a formal living and dining room (lest it lose it "re-sale value"). As a result, the new homeowner feels they NEED square footage, at any cost to quality construction. I really do wish I did more renovation work on existing well-built older homes, but new construction in the suburbs is where I work... I'm just sick of working on the same house over and over...I'm glad I'm not the only one with an un-finished basement!

10. 
    Guest_ | Mar 13, 1999 05:37am | #23

    *
    Thanks for the input folks. I was struck by some of the observations about kids. I explored the "designed community" of Dupont WA a year or so ago when I was doing some market research prior to building my first spec house. The community was supposedly designed with kids and young familys in mind with a green space every couple blocks, but you never saw any kids playing. The major growth industry in the area seems to be day (and night) care facilitys.Security is a big issue so they look like little stalags.
    I was also interested in the notion of our need for sq. footage not being static. When I said cradle to grave, I was thinking about the parents and assuming that the kids would grow up and leave, but sometimes things happen in life and they may need to come back home for awhile at least. I'm wondering if the need to trade down to an "empty nester" isnt something that was thought up by the same realator who convinced them to buy a bigger house than they needed to begin with. It might make sense for someone who had raised a family of 10 but 1.7? I doubt if Steven Kreitz and his wife will ever feel the need to sell their well thought out 1500 sq.' house when their kids leave home "because its just too much to maintain". When our kids grew up and left home we had no trouble at all finding a use for the extra rooms.
    Of course if it had been the 4000 sq.' east wing vacated by the kids and their nanny that may have been different. Then again, we may not have ever noticed that they were gone. JonC

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 13, 1999 06:21am | #24

   *JonHave to second your opinion of the Dupont "designed community", saw all I need to see in about 30 minutes, creepy place. I'm just starting the design process of my next house and hopefully last house. Should come in about 1,300 to 1,400 sq ft for a family of 3, with a 4th on the wish list. Money saved on un-needed "great" and "formal" space can go into a better quality build. The 1,400 doesn't include my shop which needs to be big enough for me to build a plane in (another 1,400sq ought to do it).

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 13, 1999 07:46am | #25

   *Planes!!!!Have built more than ten if I can still count...Started back in my college dorm in 1975...Recently thinking about converting my greatroom into a huge shop with ceiling display of my first biwing.J

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 13, 1999 09:01am | #26

   *Made a deal with my wife before we were married.Planes or motorcycles?She picked planes.

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 13, 1999 09:04am | #28

   *You made a great deal...J

11. 
    Guest_ | Mar 13, 1999 09:04am | #27

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    I have a decided preference for neat little houses. I've noticed that many of the posts here, and articles in FHB, seem to equate fine with big. Apparently, a small house can be fine if it is: a seasonal cottage, a guest house (nice one in the last issue), a tower built on a postage stamp, or the equivilant of 2 10x50 mobiles stacked on top of each other in an alley. The last being a real masterpiece of cutting edge architecture. I'm curious as to how many sq.' some of you think the average couple with 1.7 kids need to live happily cradle to grave? How about just a couple? Lets assume we have enough room that we dont have to build "up" unless we want to. Hoping to hear some interesting ideas. JonC

    For Blue: All mystical experiences are mere coincidence, and vice-versa of course.