Last year our county (King Co, WA) revised UBC so that one can legally build a 200 sq ft shed without a permit. (UBC still just 120 sq ft).
What is it in your area? know there are still some places with no permits needed at all, but getting fewer every year.
Likely to get annexed to the local burg next year, so need to slap up some more 200 sq ft super cheap jobs this summer, they are always the most fun to build – no plans, no permit, no hassle.
This local burg also has a greenie “cut only 6 trees a year without permit” ordinance, the poor old chainsaws sure gonna be running heavy between now and then – over 1000 trees now, planted most myself, dont like these psuedoNazis telling me I cant cut something I grew, love them trees, but willing to “bite my nose to spite my face”. Of course, the developer political contributors get to clear cut everything.
Replies
120 ft Sq here.
BILL
Around here the main rule is no permanent foundation -- must be on skids. Of course, the rule is bent a bit all the time, but if you put in an all-weather foundation a permit is required (and you'll very likely get dinged if you don't have one).
happy?
120 here too (central Texas), checked in with the inspector yesterday. Borgs don't tell you that though. And it gets violated all the time according to the inspector. HD was offering to put up 16x20 for me until they found out that they needed a contractor's license and permit. I cannot believe they thought they did not need the license...but this was the commercial rep talking.
All structures, regardless of size, must be permitted. In addition, because we are shoreline with wind concerns, each structure, regardless of size, must be connected firmly to ground to prevent uplift. They give several examples, my personal favorite being the burial of several 'deadmen', or weights (they recommend logs,) which are tied to the structure foundation. All permits must be accompanied by detailed drawings which indicate structure to ground ties, all dimensions, overhangs, roof and window details. Again, regardless the size. Takes more paperwork to construct a shed than 2xs.
Over 200 sq.ft. and the structure must conform to all residential codes, including full frostline footings, etc. A common shed size in these parts is 12x16, which gives you 192 ft2.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
There is a kind of missing link here. While we can build 120 sf with no permit, we still have to build to requirements. For instance, I can erect a storage shed 120 sf but if I erect it closer to setbacks than required, I can be forced to tear iot down or move it. Guess what - I need a moving permit to move it.Tjheoreticly, I can build one 120sf andthen add another 120 sf every year thereafter with no permit as lontg as the requirements are met.Actually did something similar on one job. got permit for 300sf then as I was finishing it a year later, the HO decided he wanted to enlarge it for his daughter to live in so I did by about 96sf, then the next year, he wanted a porch so again we added up to the limit.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Is it just me, or are all the posters unknown? On my screen, you and I are the only posters with a BT name in this thread. Gotta be my connection. That's what happens when I play hookie to watch the snow fly.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
That is a blurp that Prospero has every now and then like spilling mustard on your shirt at lunch just before a big meeting.
I think we had that 3exchange just as it was getting cleaned up
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
200 sq ft in Snohomish county Washington, as well.
They left the carport size at 200 sq ft. IMO they should have enlarged that at the same time.
Geekbox hero who once visited the glass city.
120 sq. ft. inside dimensions
"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
We get 120 round these parts also--Put power in it ie lights and all bets are off--The full meal deal then---
How am I suppost to sort thru all those bodies with no over head light---Jeez--
Mike
"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" Mitremike c. 1990
" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
>>>>Put power in it ie lights and all bets are off--The full meal deal then---Here, lights don't matter.I think that if you have a toilet, a fridge, a stove, and a bed, it is considered a dwelling and you have to have a permit and CO.Leave out one of the four, and I guess you can claim to just be "storing" the others. LOLDunno exactly how that goes. That's the best I remember from the county inspector that was out here a couple times.
Geekbox hero who once visited the glass city.
I read where some good-hearted architect decided to help homeless people and designed a cheap shelter that used only several pieces of plywood, but was weather tight and comfortable. Wasn't allowed to use them because building codes required toilets, among other things, in a dwelling. Probably also violated some square footage rule. As Hank Stamper said, "Never give a inch!" Much better to have the homeless living under bridges, in alleys or in refrigerator boxes or in entrances to buildings. Much more spacious and the whole outdoors as your toilet.
Exactly.Just what is so terribly unamerican about someone building two "sheds" near each other, and using one for kitchen and bath, and the other for bedroom and living space, until they can afford to build for real ?If the pioneers came along today, they would end up being regulated into welfare "projects".It's no wonder so many people end up on wlefare, and so many who are there, end up staying there forever. They don't have what it takes to build or buy right off the bat. And they are not allowed to do what they can with what they have... until they can save up to afford something better.And how is it skin off of anyone else's nose if the original builders never afford get out of those two sheds, and live there the rest of their life. Their children will have a bit better foot up than they did. And their children will also have the benefit of growing up with parents who are doing what they can with what they have. Instead of parents whose dignity and ambition has been stripped from them, sitting on the couch in a welfare apartment/project. Everyone has to start somewhere. As long as you have to start on the fourth rung of the ladder or nowhere at all, then all those under the fourth rung will forever be under the fourth rung... Going nowhere at all.
Geekbox hero who once visited the glass city.
Edited 3/2/2006 7:57 am by Luka
Nicely put Luka, I agree with most of what you have written. However, I would hate to see shanty towns in my comunity. Its a very perplexing problem, getting the unemployeed welfare recipients back to work and on their own feet and paying into the tax pool. Immigrants, illegal, another story.............Pop
"As Hank Stamper said..." Sometimes a Great Notion! Haven't thought about that book in years - great story by one of America's best (now gone) authors.Stace
Yup, that and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Ken Keasey. The movies made from Sometimes.... and ...Cuckoo's Nest were pretty good too.
400 SF. I think there might be some restrictions on whether the building is heated, but I'm not sure. Basically they are trying to allow the farmers to build sheds and small barns without a hassle. Someday I'll use the rule to put up a nice greenhouse for DW.
100 here unless you own 10+ acres or more. Use to be 5 acres, but that became the minimum sell off size for farmers to sell individual lots. Funny thing is they require a permit for lager sizes, but no inspections for anything but electric if you wire it.
Dave
On the other side of this is the fact of "how many sq. ft. with permit"
When I built my shop, everything was approved and O.K.ed - actually had the foundation in ( a little ahead of AHJ)
I got a call from the inspector that they had found an "issue" with the project.
Turns out that because I am in a floodplain, FEMA limits the size of a non conected structure to 600 sq. ft. +- , basically a 2 car garage.
The shop is 36 X 26 = 936 s.f.
Answer was to pull first permit for 26 X 18, build it, then add a 26 X 18 addition.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
This is a good thing to check anywhere. In our area you generally need a variance to put something larger than a 2-car garage on a residential lot. This is separate from the permit.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Last I checked it was 150 sq ft in this county. Then I learned about farm building permits.
Up to 40k ft, the sole inspection: zoning. Setbacks the concern. Not that the inspector has any idea where the line is until you tell him/her. Pretty sure they never bothered to come out here, but I was showing 500-1000 ft from the prop line (min is 35' and 25'). That was a farm building in the pic I was trying to get the car atop. Permit comes with a certificate of exemption from electric inspection, allowing the elec supplier to hook up the meter.
Not sure what Dave's getting at, 10 acres to be a farm, to be able to get a farm building permit? Here, a farm is what you call it. 2 acres is our minimal parcel, which easily accomodates "farm" activity if you want to. Even a body of water can be a "farm", if you use it as such.
Officially, the farm building can only be used for farm items. So mine's a lumber shed (with planer and stationary sander), metal working happening in the lowest level (gotta keep the tractors going). What's a tree farm? About anything you want to call one.
Sounds to me that you're experiencing the "benefits" of high population density. Something I'm keeping a close eye on here to monitor changes in what I'm allowed to do. Looks like this year they'll finally have the votes to pass the "mountain protection plan". Which will prohibit building in places like ours. But they can't prevent me from clear-cutting the whole mountain, and keeping it ugly if I choose to. That's farming.
I looked at the proposed rules and acted accordingly, to protect our investment. With the new rules, it still will be a great investment. But I sure pity the poor saps who're going to lose very big bucks by doing nothing before the rules change.
Welcome to growth.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Encroaching pressure from nearby Louisville has caused changes in zoning regulations here. Good land has more than tripled in cost per acre because the adjacent county prices have become astronomical. Since we are in a very rural and agricultural county the good old boys in power change things just enough to reap the property tax gainers from development, but keep themselves off the radar. My 6.5 acres qualified as a farm when we bought it in 1989. Now I am back in the residential category :(
Dave
That's too bad, maybe extremely bad. Here, zoning and taxation are separate entities though there is obviously some overlap.
For instance, taxation allows me to keep my land in "land use", which means approxiamately 90% tax reduction on the unimproved land as long as I have no smaller than 20 ac parcels for "tree farm". That has nothing to do with zoning, which is "rural/algricultural" for the vast majority of the county. That's where the 2 ac min comes in. Primarily a well/septic requirement.
I'm still unsure if I read your first post correctly. That farm building permits exist there, even if you no longer qualify? I firmly believe that everybody should have an exit plan in place, just in case. We do.
If I got re-classified to be taxed at fair market value, there'd be as many houses as possible here and we'd be looking (with a big pile of cash) for land somewhere less popular. This actually happened on a small parcel we have, which qualified for "land use" until they changed the interpretation. Seems about 50 of us land owners got remedial tax bills. Mine was 200x what I'd been paying per year. Only 10x annually from here on out. And they want to preserve undeveloped land? As you note, probably none of the county supervisors got burned...PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Here its 100sf, five feet off the line and you need a zoning permit. If it's attached to the ground (slab) you also need a building permit. Northern New Jersey
Over ten acres you become farm land.....no permit required for any accessory building. Be barn, shed. tee pee or maybe spaceship, if you are a "farmer" and can't live in it, you build without a permit, footing, structural, or anything but a plumbing and/or electrical inspection.
Under ten acres you need a permit for anything over 100 sq. ft. with the above inspections the same. They just want the money for permits from "residential" property owners; not the "good old boys" with the beef cattle and tobacco income.
Dave
Some areas here also have similar to "mountain protection plan", almost impossible to get a building permit for new house in some areas.
Have 32 acres of forest land near Mt St Helens with a cabin (FHB GM NOV1990) and a shed for 4x4 and another dozer I keep there.
Taxes on forest land are only $1 acre/year, but the cabin is 'assumed' to occupy 5 acres which gets taxed at near city rates. County wanted to raise the assessment on the cabin and shed (Both cost under $500 to build in 1979/80)to $35k, only way I kept assessment down was to tell assessor I'd apply for demolition permit and then they would only get the $1 acre.
but the cabin is 'assumed' to occupy 5 acres which gets taxed at near city rates. County wanted to raise the assessment on the cabin and shed (Both cost under $500 to build in 1979/80)to $35k,
Here, the assumption is 2 acres that is not agricultural. Unfortunately for the assessor, I read the rule booklet. Turns out he hasn't a leg to stand on legally. And his office gave me the booklet to read! His duty, which he shirks, is to give a good faith estimate of how much land is actually out of agricultural production, including the driveway. The poor clerk was totally confused when I told her that they wouldn't be using 2 acres with me, even if they "always" do that.
Came back from a chat with her supervisor even more confused and told me that she still didn't understand, but that they wouldn't be doing that with me. Read the booklet you gave me 2 wks ago?
You apparently don't have fair market value taxation. Here, your cost and a buck would buy you a cup of coffee. Which seems reasonable to me. You clearly have something of value and I see no reason you shouldn't pay property tax on it. You also have the right to remove that value. Pretty sure you already have a gift in that $1/acre tax bill.
The first assessment of our house, they tried to slide sq ft cost past me. I didn't bite, not simply due to my much lower cost. There are no comparable sales, so you get into some difficulty, which I was eagerly anticipating. Most buyers want to live in a subdivision, not on top of a mountain with a driveway frequently unpassable without 4x4. We settled on an assessment well under half their original proposal. A decade later we're almost up to that figure. They weren't professional enough to bump the assessment when I rerouted the driveway, civilizing it. Not that the assessor didn't notice, just didn't occur to him there was an assessment ramification.
As it's the only thing they do, you might think they'd have a handle on the process. But no. It would sound as if your assessor is equally unprofessional.
I don't have a problem with property taxes and the manipulation thereof. Until it's clear that the manipulation goes beyond the "public good". Our "land use" taxation, which is state-wide, promotes non-development. Exactly what it did, so far, with my land. If I develop, I'm faced with a substantial tax bill. Makes sense to me.
Changing the zoning, as Dave encountered, is entirely another matter. Zoning is pretty much everything. Our "mountain protection plan" is a zoning change that's going to screw a lot of landowners. I pity them, as there is a way to protect yourself. But you've gotta understand the rules first.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
150 here and if I recall up to 15' high.
Must stay 3' off property lines.
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WWPD
wow, three feety is close!Most places are 8-15' in towns. We are at fifty feet here.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
ALL our lots are pretty much 50X100 here. Lucky us .......the city gives us that 3'.
Of course our backyard now with the addition and the shed is about 18x 34...what are you gonna do??-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WWPD
Here it is 120 sq ft
Same thing on six trees greaqter than a certain diameter in certain areas near the shore, but that one is good, we are losing a lot of shore to erosion.
See the same phenomenon whenever there is a new ordinance on the horizon a lot of panic building or panic cutting sets in for a year, with the result that the potential positives of a legislation is offeset by the bubble of activity preceding the enactment
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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What is it in your area?
"Storage shed" (no permanent foundation) must be less than 120 SF.
All other construction must be permitted, including decks, fences, and the like. Which means, typically, you have to be on really, really good terms with the BI if you are putting a shed next to a deck, new fence, or the like.
Oh, and if you stub out electrical, the shed is considered to have a "permanent" location (so, orange & yellow extension cords are common SDs for sheds around here . . . )
Around here a deck/patio under some height (I'm thinking 18 inches) doesn't need to be permitted. Fences don't need permits, generally, but are subject to height restrictions, etc.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
In Philly, it's ZERO. Add a square inch to a footprint and you need a building permit, which also requires zoning approval. That applies to each floor -- add a roof deck, for example, even if you keep it within height restrictions, and you need a building permit with zoning approval. In some neighborhoods, you need historical approval as well. Kind of need it that way, though. Most houses are row houses so it keeps neighbors from getting into fisticuffs (actually gunfights -- it's a tough city) over this sort of thing.
Around here a deck/patio under some height ... Fences don't need permits, generally, but are subject to height restrictions, etc.
Well, those are the City rules, everything needs a permit unless they say it doesn't.
I'm not surprised that fences are covered, they are in utility easements and or involve property line conflicts, almost sounds like cutting out the middleman to just require a permit.
Sticking point being in how much is a "repair," and how much is "new" work--even Developement Services does not know that one.
I checked again, and we don't have that fillip where a s-o-g patio is "ok," but a deck of the same footprint needs a permit. There is a huge leeway in repairs to existing porches & decks (luckily for me).
Now, HOA are alowed to specify more restrictions--which is one more thing PDS wants to check before you get carried away.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Now just 2 blocks outside Renton, WA city limits.
shed? 150 s.f. , but still need a zoning permit, , setbacks are 40' sideyards, 100 feet front, and 100 feet rear.
AS far as trees go, I can remove anything up to six " dbh, the rest are protected.
Now I've got creek front, which means 100' from the creek is buffer, I can't touch ANYTHING , (tree, shrub, bush, even that little thing that just sprouted up) without a mitigation plan, unless, of course it's dead or dying. Damn Chesapeake Bay act. F----
Here they go by cost, not area. Any job $300 or over requires a permit. At least in theory. That number hasn't been revised in years, so you can't -- at least in theory -- get a decent paint job on one room without a permit. Not that anybody actually pulls paint job permits. But you might be able to get one of those cheapie sheet aluminum sheds under the limit.
-- J.S.
200 square feet in Boise Idaho, with no setbacks (normal 5 feet side and 3 feet rear). --Ken
This way of listing is easier than trying to figure out what does require a permit. Everything not on the short list requires a permit and any building, even a dog house, requires an engineers stamp.
3.The following work does not require a permit:
Building Replacement of residential doors Residential window replacement Patio Slabs Siding replacement 500 square feet or less
Plumbing Replacement of plumbing fixtures after the stop, excluding water heaters Stopping of leaks Clear drain stoppages, provided such repairs do not involve or require the replacement or rearrangement of valves, pipes or fixtures.
Mechanical Connection of portable equipment such as portable heating appliances, portable ventilation equipment, portable cooling units and portable evaporative coolers. Any steam, hot or chilled water piping within any heating or cooling equipment regulated by the code. Replacement of any part within a single piece of equipment Any self-contained refrigeration system containing 10 pounds or less of refrigerant and actuated by motors of 1 horsepower or less.
It's 120 sq/ft in most cities here as well.
Also, if you are considering putting in a concrete floor, be aware you may be charged additional property taxes as it is now considered a "non-portable" structure....may want to check that out...
knowledge without experience is just information.... Mark Twain
http://www.cobrajem.com
We are not under your codes but here its anything with a roof . Dog houses are exempt. hahaha
Tim
Good point. A patio doesn't require a permit, but a patio with a roof does, and also requires that the roof have an engineer's stamp.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?