Heyy everyone I just wanted some opinions on wether or no i’m getting paid enough.
I personally don’t think I am so any input you would have is greatly
appreciated….About me I’m 21 years old been a full time carpenter since high school
and also did 2 summers full time during high school so all in all i’ve got almost 5 years
experience. I have learned alot in those 5 years. I’ve aquired a van litterally chock full
of tools everything from a handsaw to tablesaw, chopsaw, router table I take my t
ools outta the van daily and allow the other guys to use them. I’ve got the most tools
in the company( I know how to use them all properly too) I’m early every day, havn’t
taken a sick day since I started, am willing to work late and on weekends. I’m not the
lead carpenter on the job but I do have alot of input on the way we do things from
framing to doing built in cabinets. The guy I work with is 5 years older than me and
totally green lacks common sense has the basic tools and is always walking around
empty handed. So rather than tell the world what I make could you give me some
input on what you are paying your guys equipped equally. I make 3$ and hour more
than the new guy and i’m sure the fact that he has a family gets factored in, which is
total bull because pay is based on performance and i would give him a “D”. Like I said
let me know any info is appreciated.
Replies
It's pretty much useless to ask us what you are worth. We don't know you nor your work.
It's like me asking you what I'm worth-36 yrs experience?
Factor in our locations and it's damn near impossible.
I don't doubt you're worth more than they are paying you.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Where are you?
What kind of work does the co do?
How busy are they?
How good is your work? (it sounds like you work your butt off and are very sincere but... honest appraisal)
PaulB
I thought you might hire him;)[email protected]
I'lll sidestep the original Q too for the same reasons.
But I will advise you on a couple things.
One is that you will make your life miserable by comparing yourself, your production rate, your pay, your worth, or anything else down to the size of your #### to somebody else. You will be far happier just focusing on your own stuff for the rest of your life.
Two is that if you are a employee and not a sub, your employer is using you if you allow everyone else to use all your tools this way. Sooner or later, they will be ruined and hard feelings will ensue. See if he is willing to come up with a tool allowance for you or start forgetting them at home.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
u said what I said only shorter-er.
I would have beat you to the post![email protected]
Well, you can find out what you're worth. Tell the people you work for you'll quit if they don't give you more money. You'll know pretty quick how much you're worth to them.
LOL! That's pretty funny right there!
'Bout sums it up in many ways.........[email protected]
mud,
Your pay, or rather what you would like to be paid really doesn't have much to do with what the 'other' guy is making.
First, the tools are yours. You worked long and hard and scrimped and saved so you could have your own tools set up and taken care of the way YOU wanted them. Now, STOP letting other people use your tools. NOW, PERIOD!!
If your boss is to cheap to buy tools for the company, or he can't afford to hire well equipped carps such as yourself that is his issue to deal with. Your tools are for your use only.
Let me ask you something; can I come over and borrow your truck for a little while? Your wife?
There is the answer to that question. Now stick with it.
Besides, if Johnny gets hurt using YOUR tools who do you think his wifes/mothers lawyer is going to sue?? EH?
If you think you are worth more than discuss it with your boss. Call into the office or when you see him tell him you want to schedule a meeting with him. Develop and bring an agenda with you and stick to it.
Network yourself like crazy. It is not unusual for a guy your age to develop a reputation as a good guy and other companies may solicit you away from your current employer..........IF.............you are as good as you say you are.
A couple more words of advice if you don't mind. Keep in mind the current state of the economy. It may not be the best time to be making a move depending on how things are where you live.
It is usually not a good idea to hold out what you are worth against so and so. You either make what you need/want or you don't. Playing that game can often lead to trouble.
What will you say to your boss? That you want more money because you know that Johnny is macking $xx and you are worth more?
Many companies will terminate employment for discussion of wages amongst employees.
Work your way up with a strategy, not angst.
Best wishes young...............
[email protected]
can I come over and borrow your truck for a little while? Your wife?
Wife ... sure, if you can put up with her.
Truck ... only if you fill the tank
Dog & tools ... no way.
To Mudd ... Piffin is right, stop comparing yopurself to other guys in the company. Do your best work all the time. Your reputation is only as good as your last job. Ask yourself if you would sign your name to the completed work. Sooner or later the boss will reralize that you're the go-to guy for the quality jobs. And my #### is bigger than yours anyway."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
"I take my tools outta the van daily and allow the other guys to use them."
You just lowered you worth about $5 per hour in my eyes because doing that shows you lack gonads and intelligence. Don't be offended, I was stupid too at age 21. Still am.
Your worth is limited by your bosses ability to pay. If he's receiving $5 per sheet of plywwod too lay it and he pays you $6, he loses money. It won't matter what you have in your van...he can't pay it because he doesn't have it to pay.
Wanna test your worth? Ask for a ten dollar raise.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You're a fool to lend your tools to the other guys. And they probably know it. Your boss is happy to take advantage of a person like yourself.So, if you foolishly took the job on the condition that you'd bring your tools daily and share them with the crew, apologize for the oversight and demand just compensation for them. Now. Consider asking your boss a rental fee for your tools...OR, a pay raise of equal value. Barring that, leave your tools at home. Tomorrow. And everyday after that.. And DON'T lend your tools to fellow employees. Expect them to bring their own, or to use the boss's. Suddenly, your boss will understand what your true value was.
I have always worked with my own tools on all jobs....even when I was employed hourly. I also had enough guts to stand up for myself and not let the others use my tools. When employees choose to bring their tools on my jobs, I explicitly tell them to not let anyone use them. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"Your worth is limited by your bosses ability to pay."I hope you meant that in the sense that it is what the market will bear.
but if you meant it literally, I am going to disagree. There are hundreds of 'contractors' out there who fail their own crews by keeping themselves unable to pay more out of their own ignorance. One exanmple, I know of a guy who bid a job doing cedar shingle siding for about $260/square based on info he got from a JLC post,not his own crews experience. Then he daily berated his crew because he was losing ten bucks a day on each of them. They were getting as good a production rate in winter weather as I would have expected out of them in sumer. They were doing well and worth every penny he was paying them,if not more. His failure to bid right did not lower their 'worth'
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So what should a guy charge on put on cedar shingle siding? On solid sheathing or strapping (as in a rain screen application). Crew of one very good experienced carpenter and one bright and gung ho 3rd year experience (with 5 years hours). Is stapling it an ok idea or a bad idea?
I hater stapling them,but others tell me that the guns are better now...
The important thing is to not set deep enough to break the grain of the wood.The minimum rate you charge should be based on YOUR production rate. Most guys will be able to average half a square to a square a day. depends on experience, motivation,number of corners, how high up in the air, the weather
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the input- I feel the same about stapling- that is stapling almost anything except paper that is, but a lot depends on what you are stapling into I guess. I've done a fair bit of shingle siding, but mainly on small sun room additions and rot repair jobs. I've never done a whole house or even a whole large wall- but it is starting to get more popular here on the Canadian west coast and I know it's only a matter of time before I get asked to price one.
I use to pour alot of concrete on weekend jobs, the help would show up in $100 tennis shoes, no boots, no shovels, no tools trowels gloves. I had to be the only one in the mud because they dont want to get dirty. I dont pour concrete on weekends to more.
WOW that was a quick response from everyone. Well the economy is def slowing around here. So I suppose I gotta have a meeting with the boss and see what happens. So does the company provide all the tools for you guys, and what how much should the tool allowance be?? Just so you can see some of the stuff i've worked on/built here are some pics. Thanks
That's some nice work. Those pics are impressive but you need to honestly assess where you fit into the build. Are you a lead carpenter? Journeyman? Apprentice? Laborer? Then, you have to evaluate your production rate. Are you a stickler for perfection and don't get much done...but it's done perfect. Are you a slam, bam, thank you mam type and others are fixing up and finishing things behind you? There's too much to evaluate so you are the only one to know....you and your employer. I've had dozens of hotshot 21 year olds that thought they were worth 50% more than I was paying them and I thought I was paying them 50% more than they were worth. Oh....one more thing. When a guy tells me he has five years experience and three of them were when he was in High School, it peeves and insults me. While he was cozily running around the commons chasing the cutie girls in their short skirts, I was actually up on that roof in zero degree weather fighting the bitter wind while laying the plywood. I don't think anything insults me more. I'll give you credit...I think you added two high school years and only claimed them as one. That tells me your math is bad because high school in most areas is 9 months and that leaves 3 months experience. Your two years of high school "side work" adds up to one hard month of winter work on my crew with me....if you survived the first week.Nothing personal....you are the one asking your worth....I'm just telling you how I view most 21 year olds who think they should be running the show...I do like your drive and attitude though and if you can convince me that I'm a dumb old coot and you're worth what you say, I'd work every day along side you and teach you everything I know. If you get insulted about how I view you...well....you don't need me anyways! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Duplicate post, sorry
Edited 3/30/2008 8:18 pm ET by True North
I was wondering about his math too.Seems to me that he could only have just over three years anyway you want to figure it...All of 18 (pretty unlikely) all of 19, all of 21 and maybe a bit depending on how far along his 22 year he is.Summers don't count for much, especially since he would have started at what, 14? (Apologies to AndyFew!)
You are building yourself a good portfolio there.I see a lot of quality design also, which means that you are working with an outfit that gets the good jobs so you are gaining a lot of good experience and knowledge. That is good for your career in the long run if you are being paid fairly, especially in the current market.When I was hiring, I expected carpenters to have the basic toolbelt and hand tools, a circ saw and drill/driver set.
Cords, ladders, table saws, chop saws etc were my responsibility.
I paid them a buck an hour tool allowanceThere is an advantage on payroll to do the tool allowance separate from the hourly. Called cafeteria plan in accounting circles, there are benefits like that and transportation allowance, etc that can paid out hourly or per diem that are not taxable payroll re FICA and income tax.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I live in eastern VA. Quit the family business (boat repair maintenance even helped my brother build a couple ) at 34 and got hired on as a helper. Had little experience in custom home building. Started at $12 /hr. Five years later was making a whopping $14 /hr. Decided I was worth more than that and told the boss I was gonna start taking on more side work, maybe we could work out 3-4 day weeks. He said no way he didn't have time for all that. I quit. Started working at $25 /hr. Now I'm at $30/ hr and I'm swamped, doing mostly remodeling work. The old boss was charging same when I left him 6 months ago.
You're worth what you think you're worth - if you can get it.
you are swamped because you are only charging 30. That is also the reason he could not pay you more if he charges that much.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey! Cut that out. You keep beating me to the punch![email protected]
OK, I'm going to bed now. Have at it....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Nice barn
how do the horses get in the front door?
http://forums.taunton.com/n/docs/docDownload.aspx?guid=10671B94-43DA-4585-B833-FDAA01D95FBF&webtag=tp-breaktime
;-)
Edited 3/31/2008 8:24 pm ET by Scrapr
Edited 3/31/2008 8:25 pm ET by Scrapr
You seem like this is your chosen path, so here is my 2 cents;
At 21 you a still just a kid to whoever is signing your paycheck. attitude counts at any age and more so when you are young. If the owner thinks "now what" when ever he sees you coming no matter how good you are you will not get ahead. Your employer already knows you are serious and want to get ahead, so keep your mouth shut and head down. Learn to do the job the way this boss wants you to, later on when you are the boss you will want the same. A little self-test- do you give others advise or do they come to you for advice.
Most companies are facing hard times right now, when things pick-up again you want to be next in line for promotion.
A little tough love- you measure your experience in years, some of us in decades. At 3 years out of high school how much can anyone know. At 21 I thought I knew everything, 30 years later I know I'll never know it all.
Not a carpenter or G.C. here but part of the equation is what you boss is charging for your time - do you know?
Take the hourly rate he is charging clients for your time and divide by 2.2 - 2.5 and see how that roughly equates to what he is paying you.
So if he's charging $45/hour for your time and paying you $15/hour IMO you're not being paid what you are worth.
Jeff
The best advice I can give someone your age is to take a business course at night and learn how to run a business profitably.You seem to be headed in the direction of running your own show some day.Keep your head down,keep track of time on projects not only how long it takes you to do a job, but the entire crew.Ask your boss questions about the business,how to price things,how to stay on schedule.What you are "worth" to you boss can be interpreted in many ways, not just by what you can do with your hands and tools.If you want to be the" go to guy", show him you are worth more to him from a business investment perspective.In my 20+ yrs I have only had one employee ever interested in how to make a profit in this business.He's the one I've kept all these years.
Here in the burbs of NYC want ads only want you to have hand tools to bring to the job. Does sound like your being used in that respect.
well, your story reminds me somewhat of mine. In that I knew I was underpaid for what I did. I knew because I got laughed at when I told people how much I was getting paid. Factor in the 4 hour commute I endure every day, along with the fact I was 1st one to the job site each and every day, lead people to say I was crazy. I also had a wife and kid. when I started I was making so little I had to have a night job to live and support a wife. leave a 5:30 am and get home 9:30 at night and if I fell asleep on the drive home, I'd get home at 1:00 am.
There however was somehting far more valuable than the dollar an hour wage I was making, and that was the knowledge and skills that I was obtaining. You see I reckognized that to learn the most and best I need to work with the best crews ( even if they were cheap ) I saw the jobs that we were doing and realized I didn't live in a area where those kinds of homes were built.
After four years, I approached my boss and told him I would like to do an official apprencticeship. They were not registered to do so, so my boss took the necessary step to apprentice me. By this time I however was already running guys under me. So having a journeyman over me was pointless, as I acted like a journeyman already. The benefit of getting them to apprentice me was that my wage was a percentage of the journeyman rate and I got scheduled raises.
Soon I was running the whole crew, without having completed any of the schooling. I was now topped out on my wage, and told them they needed to decide what they wanted to pay me. took me six years, but they finally paid me a rate that was more than I expected. Funny thing is I was at the same time offered a job that paid $5 an hour more but I decided to stick with the job I had.
the point of the long story is it's called paying your dues. Sounds like you are getting there, but be patient. If you are learing from skilled people, absorb all tha you can and the money will come. Soon, your Boss will say to you what mine said to me one day " it would really suck if you left".
I now work for myself, and am cheaper with myself then My old boss ever was in the early days. I'm last to get paid, sometimes I skip myself. now It's all about building the business.
I would for starters think about doing an official apprenticship. Then you simply get paid based on the numbers in your area.
good luck
EDIT: ps does sound like the tool thing is a problem. Tools required should be whatever you need that you can carry in yer belt.
Edited 3/30/2008 9:35 pm by alrightythen
far more valuable than the dollar an hour wage I was making, and that was the knowledge and skills that I was obtaining
Amen, pay attention to the above quote.
I only do construction for self, charity, family, etc. but knowledge lets me now do more with 1/4 the energy of when I was 21 YO.
No direct comparison with your situation as I work for a very large corporation, however, with reference to the first quote, my first pay was $30 per week, jumped to $120 wk after learning some surveying, then to $160/week after gettin an engineering degree, but even more valuable was accumulating knowledge over the last 4-1/2 decades with commensurate pay increases -- I've been told my pay now (based on application of accumulated knowledge) is more than the boss's boss's boss (3rd level supervision, half way to VP <G>)
Agree with all the others that you will come to regret loaning tools. I did that too when young, every tool I ever loaned got trashed to some extent, up to an including having 2 injectors and clutch trashed on a dozer with no remuneration.
It will surprise you how much more you are worth to someone other than your current employer. If you're willing to stick around for peanuts the boss isn't going to force more money on you. Think of it like poker.
Personally, if you really want to know what you're worth start shopping, but be careful since it can bite you if the green grass isn't really greener after all. You are young and sound like a go-getter so I'd say you'll make more money and get better networking contacts, co-workers and mentors if you hit up the better contractors in your area.
Keep networking with other carps and contractors even if you stay put. Having options is never a bad thing and in our business it's the only way to really have security.
If you're ever looking for work in Idaho look me up.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I used to bring my power tools to work as well when i worked for someone else. All the workers and the boss would use them. I did not get a tool allowance as i was paid the same amount of money whether i brought them or not. Usually the bosses tools were to crappy to do the job (he was from Eastern Europe, i'll leave it at that)
One day the job site was broken into and my power tools were stolen. Yes, i knew that i left them there at my own risk, yes i knew that i left them there at my own risk, yes i knew that i left them there at my own risk...at no point though was it ever considered that my tools would be replaced or a percentage thereof etc...he did however offer to finance me the money (no interest) to replace my tools. I suppose that was nice of him although if i had done that deal would he have thought those tools were his when i brought them to work and the tools were not yet paid for?
Also i worked overtime and weekends to help him get his time sensitive jobs done on time, some other workers went on vacation. When it slowed down and the other workers were back from vacation...guess who was laid off for not being from the same Eastern European country? After that i figured i could assume the risk of being self-employed because being employed sometimes carries just as much risk. This way all gains are mine, schedule is mine, loss is mine, new leads are mine, tools are mine, future is mine. My skill level at that time was probably quite lower than what yours is now, assuming you've done what you say you have, but i was really good at finishing drywall, so i was good at some stuff...but the whole deal about learning from other people and the worth of that has merit too, aAlthough they can only exploit you for so long...also you could specialize right off the hop at something you were really good at and then slowly branch out from there when you felt comfortable and had done the homework. Also when you have a business you still have to count on paying your 'dues' there as well, so the sooner the better.
When I was about like this kid, I quit working for Murray because he said I wasn't worth more than he was paying. but GG offered me another twentyfive cents an hour!Guess what?
Old man Murray offered me another fifty cents to come back to him! In a month's time, I got a seventy five cent raise by quitting a job where I supposedly wasn't worth that much. That was back when wages were a lot lower too. I think that was from $3.25 to $4.00 making it almost a 25% raise.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Your story reminds me of a carp that used to be around here. Carp used to move from one GC to the next, always claiming that the last one had approached him and offered him a raise of .25 -.50 if he went to work for them. One day several of the GC's happened to all be in the local yard and got to BS'ing, turns out none of them had offered him a raise to come to work for them, they all thought they were matching the previous GC's pay . That carps welcome on sites wasn't quite what it used to be after that day.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I'll bet you that one gc that recognized this carps ability to think forward and stategize hired him in a flash.[email protected]
Actually no. He was a pretty good rough carp , but always looking to work the angles to his advantage. Personable and could fit in with most crews without causing trouble so when help was in short supply he was always able to get on someplace.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
collusion...the American way
I dont' think collusion is really the issue. The issue is with the bosses. If they were stupid enough to believe that the other guys were upping the ante, then they deserve to be surprised. Besides, if they are basing their payroll on what the other guy pays, they ought to rethink their business skills. If you are paying your guys fair and cant pay any more based on sound financial reasons, when he asked for .50 an hour, you'd just have to say no and explain why. If you could afford the .50, you shoulda been paying it so your guy wasn't looking....unless you wanted him to leave anyways. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Partly correct. Rural area, experienced hands were generally in short supply when things got busy. Same labor pool fed maybe 5 GCs, none of whom stayed busy year round and year in year out. Under those circumstances the labor pool dictates the wages, like it or not. GC's were basing the wages on what they had to pay to get help to do the jobs. What pizzed the GC's off was his lying about it. Nobody would have batted an eye if he had simply said "I need this much". Most of us got a laff out of how he had pulled the wool over our eyes, but that didn't mean we didn't also take notice of his willingness to lie to achieve his aim.
Edited 3/31/2008 9:18 pm by dovetail97128
So what did you spend your extra $$ on back then? Maybe you shouldn't answer that....
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I think vehicles was one of my big expenses back then.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
My big expenses back then was Beer & Women!
The kid does nice work!
If I could get him to run 5" crown all day in walnut without boogering it up $25-$30.
don't know what the cost of living in CT is like ...
but if you are indeed the lead carp on those projects I'd say somewhere around $21/hr.
if you are a "sometimes lead" ... between $18-$21.
a real honest to god lead that takes the prints, sits down for a week and estimates time and materials and arranges subs and such ... and is on site as the answer man each and every day ... $21 - $25/hr.
just one word of caution ... I know the underpaid feeling ... I know what it's like to be twice as good and half as young. And even now that I have a family and young kids ... I also think it's BS for guys with kids to get a bonus as such.
but ... those look to be pretty nice pics ... pretty nice projects.
Will you be happy if you leave and end up making a dollar an hour more and spend the days digging ditches?
high end experience ... in high end neighborhoods ... with high end design /materials will lead to way more money down the road than regular, run of the mill remodeling projects.
I did the regular remodeling for years ... wasn't till I went "employee" with a high end design/build firm did I develop the talent, contacts and reputation to make a real income.
I would put an end to the tool borrowing.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Mudduk,
If it is truly time for a raise, and it is a decision your sure of, you need to think about how to properly approach your boss. Ignore the fact that others around you may or may not deserve the pay they are receiving. Going in with an attitude that things are unfair does nothing for the owners bottom line.
Think about your pay from the owners perspective. When you talk to him, instead of arguing that others do less for more pay, let him know you would like more responsibility. Tell him you are ready to learn more and take on more. Describe what you have offered to the company so far and what you would like the chance to further do . He already knows your a hard worker. He needs to know you are willing to learn more take on more and take a bigger role. What are you going to offer him?
Do an honest assessment, what are your weak areas? Where do you need to improve? What do you need to learn to become a lead? These are the areas you should take on. You should try to grow not only financially but also in your capabilities.
Can you tell him you'll help manage some of the newer green guys. When you show up early prep the jobsite for everyone. How can you help the lead? You want to learn his job. Talk to him, what would he like to hand off? Talk to the owner what does he need help with? Is there an area he sees that needs improvement with the crew/company?
What ever you do, don't go in to meet with him unprepared and angry. Go in there ready to offer him lots and then follow through on your offer. Even tell him you want more responsibility now and a chance to talk with him in 2 months about how your doing and what your worth.
If you come through for him, he'll need to come through for you.
P.S. Boy those where some nice pictures you must have had the most amazing woodshop teacher in high school. ;) Looked for you at JLC Live
Where to start?
First off, an actual dollar figure is hard to pin down.
I've worked in New Jersey as an Employee doing the kind of high end work it appears you do. At that time, mid 90's, I was making about $20 an hour.
My wife was on me about all the travel so I started looking for a job local in the Allentown PA area. I had an interview with a reputable local builder who was doing the same type of high end work I was doing.
After seeing my work and my truck and tools, he offered me $13 per hour. I told him no way. His response was "I'm sorry, but that would make you my second highest paid carpenter over guys who have been with me for years. I just can't any higher.".
I thought he was full of it until I got to talking to one of his leads a year or so later and found out that in fact at $13 per hour I would be making more than this particular guy who was in fact pretty capable.
These two locations are a mere 50 miles apart!!!!!
I'm gonna break this up so that it's not too long
Ok, part 2.
Lets talk tools.
DO you get compensated for those tools?
I worked for the same guy for a while. I had all my own tools just like you. The problem was that the boss hardly had enough tools to fill the back of a shortbed truck.
Shortly, guys would got to my truck instead of the bosses. On several jobs, people actually thought I was the boss based on the fact that I directed the crew and tools came out of my truck every day.
SO what did I get for this?
Well, I got to replace broken or lost tools all the time. I got a boss who had to spend even less overhead cause me and another guy had all the tools HIS crew needed. I got a lot of scratches on the side of my truck from jacka$$es leaning against it to get stuff out.
If you don't get compensated for those tools............then they are yours and yours alone. I'm not saying don't loan one out if a guy needs it for ten minutes. I'm saying Don't just get them out for everyone else to use unless you get paid for it.
"I'm not saying don't loan one out if a guy needs it for ten minutes."I don't agree. I wouldn't advise lending it for ten minutes unless the guy has his own similar tool and it was inadvertantly left at home that day or maybe it needs service and he would have his own back to work the following day. I've refused many guys who want to "borrow my nail puller real quick". Think about it. What makes a worker worth more than the other worker? Production. What makes one man produce more than another? Tools. If I lend my tools to the other guys on the crew who are in direct competition for the available work dollars that are going to feed myself and my family, where does that put me in the equation: further ahead or even? When I was a young carpenter, I had two kids to feed. Every tool purchase was very important to me and I agonized over spending $3.75 for a utility knife or large glue gun. The other guys bought beer. I bought tools. I'm not "lending my tools to them for ten minutes". I will give them directions to the ACE Hardware so they can buy their own. One more lesson about lending tools: I never lost a small hand tool to the guy who owned a similar one. I've lost hundreds to guys that didn't have a similar one. Then, they have the tool, I don't have the tool. Think about that a bit. I've always had an ample supply of small hand tools in my tool box. I don't need to borrow someone else' prybar or nail puller or nailset or utility knife. Consequently, I've never "forgot to take your tool out of my pouch". Why? because I have no room in my pouch for THEIR tools. My pouch is full! What do they do with my small tools when the borrow them for ten minutes? They mentally forget that it's my tool and they put it in their pouch. Then, their pouch goes home with them and the boss calls that night and sends them to a different job. Then, I'm missing the tool, which is critical to me (all those tools are critical or they wouldn't be in that box). Or, more likely, I'll only have one of those tools left meaning I'll need to stop and buy a back up that night. I will not lend a small hand tool for ten seconds. I have a really simple answer: "nope". It has served me well after I realized how many small tools went home in someone elses bags. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
blue-- i am gonna have to think about this.I am fully trucked and tooled.
many of my tools--were purchased to make the work go quicker and easier----
but-they are essentially small ,personal, hand tools.I contract to replace the roof on a house.Reasonably-- i supply ladders,roof jacks, pics, air compressors, hoses, guns, saws------and i work right along side the employees.
where do I draw the line between what is my "personal tools"-and " company tools"untill a couple weeks ago----- i had 2 similar snips of the same age--one was slightly smaller--and i used it for cutting big sheets of metal --or vinyl sidingthe other was slightly larger-and I use it to chomp through dimensional shingles. the slightly smaller sheet metal snips----- now gone. no body( 3 employees) know where they are.
I know I didn't lose them-they would be only one of 2 places---on my belt--or in my riggers bag on the truckbut they are gone none the less.
My Estwing roofers flat bar--demonstrably better than everyone elses
is now the "go-to" tool----betcha that turns up missing as well.think I am going to have to designate one man-the laborer-to load and unload the truck--everybody else-----stay out of my truck!you had maybe a similar set up-------- how do you handle it?------you have the tool on your truck--that will allow the employee to do the job better and faster---AND the employee should reasonably own the tool.
It costs YOU-the employer money--NOT to lend the employee the tool!stephen
sheet metal snips----- now gone
Gee, I have that problem too, and it's only me with access........then somehow the tool will turn up in a week or month, that is the reason for having multiples of everything.
This is the cost of doing business.
It is the contractors job to supply tools. Hand tools are the employees
responsibility. I have used my tools on my bosses job with the full
understanding that they will replace if they broke or came up missing.
I lend my tools to everyone I'm working with. YES I have come up missing tools from time to time BUT they always
come back eventually. If my tools make a job go faster, I will use
and lend them to others.
New people are the only exception. They have to prove they will be
around before they are lent tools.
If you can't afford duplicates, you are not charging enough. Cat paws,
flat bars, nailsets, tin snips are cheap at harbor freight. I am not in
business now but I have 5-6 flat bars. 4 cat paws, 15-20 nailsets,
6 pairs of snips, 7 chalk boxes, 3 hammers, as well as most saws
drills, etc.. I work for others and I expect them to have at least as
much as I do or more.
As far as 21 yr old, you need to keep your nose clean, keep a good
attitude and your time will come. I have learned the hard way that
the grass is not greener in the other pasture.
frammer52,
you make an excellent point1the problem is-in our case flat bars and snips--clearly belong in the hand tool category---and the man should have his own-not borrow mine.Nail sets--company owned nail sets??????
i wouldn't think a carpenter who couldn't furnish his own nail sets------would remain employed for long.guns,hoses,saws, roof jacks, ladders,air compressors--sure-that's on the company( and many would say the tradesman should provide his own saw.)
doesn't matter how many tape measurers, chalk lines, utility knives, hammers, flat bars, snips etc. I personally own--the point is-they are MINE-not the employees. I will admidt----I made a mistake.
when a man takes a job roofing with us--and says he has his basic hand tools---I expect at a minimum
tool belt
tape measure
chalk line( with ONLY blue chalk)
2 utility knives(straight blade,hook blade)
hammer or hatchet
flat bar
tin snips
--that's the bare bones basicsshould rapidly aquire--
4/1 screwdriver
pliers
siding swiper
large snipswant to be taken more seriously?
Screw gun
Circ. saw my mistake- was that i should have lent anybody without any of the basic tools the tool ONCE---and told them to report to work with their OWN tool the next AM--or not come. in the future-new hires will get that list BEFORE they start--and the first morning----they will be sent home if they don't have it.what are we really talking about here--less than $100you are right though-----we should( and do!) have multiples of everything------ the missing snips--- i must have at least 4 other pairs---but I don't like those 4 pairs--as much as i like the pair that turned up missing.we work at a different place every couple days--so if something goes missing---it isn't gonna turn up----it's lost forever in some customers pachysandra or rhodedendron bush !
Best wishes,
stephen
Stephen, do you personally interview your prospects or just hire them over the phone? If you do a face to face interview, ask them to bring their tools to the interview. You'll be surprised at the reaction. I might cut the guy some slack on day one if he has most of the basic tools but I'd be very, very clear about the situation. "Here, you can use my flat bar TODAY...I'm sure you were thinking about a lot of things and maybe were a bit nervous. You said that you had a full set of hand tools when I hired you and I expect that from everyone. I'll let you use this today and I expect you to hand it back to me just like I'm handing it to you. I loan it today but not tomorrow. I don't expect you to borrow from anyone else on the crew either"First lesson learned. In the long run, everyone benefits: each guy is capable of whatever tooling they have: nothing more, nothing less. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Heyy well I have gotten quite a response from you guys on this topic. I really like all the input you have given me on the "tool sharing" and since you pointed alot of stuff
out I noticed that the guys I work with are "pulling" some of the stuff you guys are talking about...and i'm not even the boss like it sounds most of you are. Like there
starting to help themselves to my tools, I put my hammer down and they take it across the room because theres is hanging in there belt and mine was more
convient. As for all your responses to my pay I might be in need of a small raise for my skills but as for the tools i'll have to talk to my boss and see how much of my stuff
i'm required to use, because I also noticed today that literally 90% of the tools out on the floor were mine. One question is what happens if i'm the only one that has the
tool needed to do the job?? Do I tell them i'll do it for them when i get a chance?? Alright well keep any info you have for me rolling. P.S. I might be doing a moonlighting
a Pool House and i'll need everyones help doing a estimate. and Thanks Again. RJC
"P.S. I might be doing a moonlighting
a Pool House and i'll need everyones help doing a estimate."
step one ... get insurance.
the bare minimum coverage is way better than nothing.
with all those tools I'd add a tool coverage rider.
and step two .... remember ... if they can afford a pool and a pool house ... they can afford to pay enough to cover that insurance.
Jeff
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
blue,
employee #1 is a basic laborer---kid i have known for 6-7 years-- I don't really expect him to have any tools--- he is here to do heavy lifting for the summer and I am fine with occasionally loaning him a few hand toolsemployee #2--more an "apprentice" type situation.- I explained to him early on--he was only worth "X" amount to me-without tools he was basically a laborer--- if he wanted more money he needed the basic set of tools--and to start learning to use them-- that has worked fine--within days he had showed up with a motley collection of most of the basics--still doesn't have the flat bar, but I expect that will change shortly. he has already remarked that he made a mistake getting the el cheapo utility belt--which he will soon rectifyemployee#3--experienced guy.-we talked for quite a bit over the phone initially-----and also( as all new hires)- i invited him to come and work with us a day or so to make sure we could all get along.this trial period--is where i made my mistake.- by coincidence-the snips and the flat bar were not needed on that job--and i was paying more attention to his work-than his tools.It's a situation where he has a flat bar--but mine is better,-he has the snips-but mine were better--and so on.you are correct-the fault is absolutely mine.- i should have handed employee #2 and employee #3 an actual list on their first days---and told them not to show up the next day without every tool on the basic list--and made clear there would be no raises in pay-untill they had the next level of tools.
you are correct- i have been too accomodating--after all-we are talking maybe $100 worth of tools-with which the worker should be earning tens of thousands of dollars each year------- and as I mentioned previously-- i would never have dreamed of showing up to work myself without those bare essentials---and I make the mistake of thinking everyone else would logically behave the same way!
currently looking for employee #4--and i will not make the same mistakes with employee #4( although I am sure i will make other mistakes,LOL)
thanks,
stephen
I solved the problem of people rummaging through my truck with this edict: if you go in my truck for anything without my express order; you're fired. My truck is personal space and no one is allowed in there. I don't go in anyone else' truck: they don't go in mine. You said: "It costs YOU-the employer money--NOT to lend the employee the tool!"That implies that the employee is holding me hostage: somewhat. That is true. But...that is only true if I'm hiring a raw rookie who has zero experience in the trade and I'm starting him off at a nothing rate. Most of the guys I've employed have answered an ad and claimed that they have "tools". I always have them elaborate when they say they have "tools". So, lets talk about raw rookies. Its the first day on the job and the raw rookie doesn't even have an apron or hammer. I'm not totally oblivious to the situation but I'm also still not ready to open my toolbox to him. I've rummaged around and pulled out a spare pouch, put a spare knife and spare nail puller and spare hammer in it. But, how long is the guy going to run around with my stuff on his waist? I've done that for friends of friends. Sometimes, if the kid works out and shows me something I've GIVEN HIM THE TEMP SETUP with the instructions to get the remainder of the tools somehow...flat bars etc. Now, lets get back to the middle of the road guys: the ones that say they are serious about making this new career workout. Well, I let them know upfront that they are required to bring and use their own handtools. I won't hire an "experienced" guy without a power saw and cord. Saws are $39 at Home Depot and cords are cheap too. Why would an "experienced" carpenter NOT have one? Back to the point though. Usually, they hear me tell them that they have to supply their own handtools but they often use their past experiences with previous employers and remember that they always dug in his box and truck for small tools. That's when the big shock hits them. When they want to pick up the tool I'm using or dig in my box...I stop them and tell them to walk to their truck to get their own tool box and set it next to mine! Sometimes, this demand will cause us to part company. Okay...goodbye! You weren't very good at communicating and more importantly "listening" anyways. So, to answer your question: yes, today we would be less productive and get less done. Tomorrow, if you have the right guy with the right attitude, you will hum along happily because he will have every important tool that he will need. When you see that he is stocking 90% of the tools that he needs, you will be able to happily "lend" him one of your specialty tools with the admonition "if you don't return it to my hand, just like I'm handing it to you, somebody is getting pushed off the roof". One last thing: everytime anyone asked for one of those specialty tools, I NEVER let them rummage in my truck. I climb down the ladder and get it myself and hand it too them. They learn that when they ask me for something, it's going to be very disruptive and usually they figure out that it's better that they don't ask....even if I'm not grumpy. When I ran the crew everyday, the old pros on my crew would simply warn the new fellows not to ask me for anything. That pretty much solved that problem. They'd tell the guy that it was much better if he asked me for time off to run to the hardware to buy a tool...I'd be much more receptive to that idea. Remember: short term pain equals long term gain...for both! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'll add to that point.I worked with a guy ( the boss's son, which is another whole pile of nightmares) almost 20 years ago who wore a clothe nail bag only because it was cheap and light. He snapped his tape on his belt when he remembered to and carried his hammer or stuffed it in his jeans pocket where it took him close to a minute of wrangling to get it out each time.I wore the full 15# belt and he was always reaching for something in it until the day I twisted his hand half off. He had the attitude that since it was closer than his truck or toolbox, he had some right to use it cause that would save Daddy time and money. Pain convinced him of a principle that mere words never did.Same issue more or less - when I first started hiring help for roofing back about 30 years ago it was usually college boys. Since they were only going to be with me for about three months, I bought their hand tools at first. But weekly, they would missing a tape or a utility knife or a hammer... Until I changed policies and made them pay for missing tools by taking it out of their checks and did not let them on the roof without having the tools I had issued them. They never lost another tools again. The pain of paying for them and losing wages because of being unprepared taught them things that lecturing and complaining never taught
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Ya know piffen,
one mistake i used to make---
hire a new in-experienced kid--he works as a laborer for a week or so--seems to be coming along.
take him to the store--want to encourage him--- i buy him a modest set of basic geartime and time again---kid is gone shortly after. no more--that's one mistake i didn't make with the new kid THIS year. in the future-- i will spell out what the basic tool list is-----for the basic pay.---want more than the basic pay?--show up with more than the basic tools-and more than the basic skills.
my mistake-among many-was assuming experienced peoiple would have enough self respect to show up properly equiped with at least the bare essentials---but it seems I have been proved wrong!!!, LOLstephen
"and did not let them on the roof without having the tools"Great minds think alike. At one point, I refused to let any framers onto the deck unless they carried a toolbox with the required tools of the trade. No box: no entry! One time, my glue gun broke. I knew it was my last one because the primary one had went kaput too. I asked someone to use theirs. They didn't have one. I asked the next guy. Didn't have one. I asked everyone. Didn't have one. My cork blew. Everyone had to go and not come back without at least one gun! Off went the crew looking for a Home Depot. I was hot because I realized that they were slacking and not really " prepared to be a framer. It doesn't take that many tools to frame and some of these guys were making pretty good dollars. I look at it this way: each one of us is mentally prepared to treat each job as an important component of their career or they are just dabbling in it. If you are dabbling, I don't want you on my crew. I want to work with winners who are interested in earning a great life for themselves and their families. If you are not that, I don't want to waste any of my trade secrets with you. Just go away. Don't go away mad..just go away.Incidently, I did not start my career in business like this. I thought I could be Mr Nice guy and they guys would see what I did and emulate me. I found out after about ten years that I was a big idiot and I probably lost thousands of dollars of good tools to morons who still have them getting rusty in their garages and are using them for uses that they are not intended. I've bought five (or more) low angle block planes and I don't have any left....that sort of thing. I remember going into my truck for a new pair of backup snips, still in the wrapper, and they were gone! "No: you cannot borrow my nail puller, but I know Home Depot sells them cheap....Do you need directions on how to get there?" That's my motto! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
And now lets talk you?
What is your goal? DO you want to be a lead? DO you want to eventually move to a management position? DO you want to run your own show? A one man band or a crew? Maybe even a company?
I think you need to answer those questions first. And yes, over the years the answers may change but you need a starting point.
Once you answer that question you can start a plan. you can learn the skills you need and get the education that best fits your goals. And, you can start saving for the big move.
But in answering those questions, you need to have an honest look at yourself, nd to be honest? At 21 with 3 years full time experience? You've got a little time before you can answer those questions with any conviction and truthfulness.
Myself for example. I am an excellent carpenter. I can frame, trim, build stairs and a whole other bag of tricks. i can also do production work too.
I could sell Ice to Eskimos.
But I'm a terrible businessman. I hate it. I hate the running a business part. I'm no good at it.
So maybe instead of trying to run a business I should have focused on another career path OR learned as much as I could while on someone elses dime?
And finally, if you've read this far!
DOn't worry about what others on the crew make.
The only guy who has an OBJECTIVE look at the worth of his employees is the boss. You have no idea what the other guy brings to the table. And, often we under or over value our own worth.
If you are making enough to live comfortable and enjoy life at 21? Then do just that, enjoy life. If not, then you need to talk to your boss and see what you can come up with. And maybe, look elsewhere!
But if it were me? I would learn as much as I could. I would build my portfolio. I would think about maybe testing the waters on some side jobs while I still had an income.
Don't look at it as a job, look at it as a safety net while you hone your skills and learn the other parts of the business.
And beware chasing the dollar!!!! As an employee, I could have made a lot more money running around ahead of crews that didn't speak any english and laying out for mudsills and floor joists 8 hours a day. Where is the joy in that?
And last before I quit. When your 40 and worrying about making payroll and getting bids out and collecting money and selling jobs, You'll look back at these days as some of the best of your life.
Relax and enjoy them.
so lets cut to the chase.
what are U being paid at the moment?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa