Hi All,
Went online and used a concrete calculator to figure how many yards to order. The contractor will be giving me a number, I am trying to anticipate what my cost will be to budget accordingly. Here’s what I figured:
2′ x 2′ x 16″ footing with a 16″ x 16″x 40″ pier x 27 piers. Comes out to slightly more than 11 yards. Sound right? How much should I add for spillage, etc? Footings and piers would be formed with wood.
Thanks
Kevin
Replies
A 2' x 2' x 16" footing would be .2 yards.
A 16" x 16"x 40" pier is about .2 yards.
Add those up and you obviously get .4 yards. Take that times 27 and you get 10.8 yards.
I'd probably order 11.5 yards if it was me. Nothing worse than coming up short.
Now if you take the 10.8 yards and add 30%.......
(-:
plugging that into the calculator to the inch gives me 11.26 yards. and that is with no waste. order 12 yards.
I've never needed a footer 16" H though. Did that come from the engineer or the concrete contractor? Some extra weight to keep it from floating away?
Don't forget the steel in your budgeting
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I've never needed a footer 16" H though
Really! Especially with only a 4" lip past the column. In this case anything over the 6" needed to cover the rebar is just not needed.
2'x2'x(10/12)'x(27/27) = 3 1/3 yds extra thickness.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
I'd use these with the bell already form footing and pier in one shot. I think about twenty bucks each
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Piff,you have a source or web site for those?
I buy from the local yard.Bigfoot is mostly a base that you add a sonotube on top of. The footing tube is the whole thing.http://www.bigfootsystems.com/http://www.foottube.com/With these, you would not have to wory about the tide. Set them and backfill. The sonotube ones would get wet though and possibly colapse. The full plastic would remain forever, more or less.
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Foottube looks like the perfect solution! And there available at the lumberyard about 10 blocks from the house. I'll be calling the engineer and the yard tomorrow.Thanks a million!
KevinI may have spoken to soon, seems it needs a minimum of 3ft undeground, wouldn't allow enough above ground to get to 32". Of course the lot will need additional fill to get it level with neighboring lots and stop flooding, maybe it would still work.
Edited 2/28/2007 9:33 pm ET by dockelly
That's a unique shape but they can tell ya where they sell ya exactly how much crete to figure for each one
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They are about five feet tall, and you can add sono tube to the tops of them.
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Called the pump truck guy, $625 for the day, he figured it would take about 3 hours, he also said the 4000 psi small stone was easier with the pump. Difference between 3000 and 4000 is $6.00 yard. Given what others have posted about the pump truck eating a yard, I'm estimating 12-13 yards. I'd have thought the 3000psi would be easier, I'll be double checking that prior to ordering. Two trucks spaced enough apart so concrete doen't sit, if all goes well.
This is the product that was shown to me as being both water proof and highly acid resistent.
just tossing it out here to see if who knows thinks what about it if they have experience with it.http://www.glaciernw.com/dept.asp?d_id=15248&l1=15248
its going take 15 yards, aint nothing worst than having a pump truck sit waiting on 1 yard. while he concrete in the pump getting hot.
Man o man, I remember beating on them hoses.
Hate it hate it hate it.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Hey SamMakes me wonder if pump truck is going to create work, I was thinking $625 for a day would be well worth it, make the whole pour quicker and easier. Any other cons to using it?
What kind of pump is being discussed?
Boom pump or line pump?
To me a boom is going to be a PITA and expensive, I would use a grout or line pump,cheaper, easier.
pretty sure it's a line pump. Guy asked me to describe job, house will be on cribbing 6' in the air, than he decided. Line pump is like a fire hose, right?
house will be on cribbing 6' in the air
Line pump. Like a heavy fire hose. Boom truck, like a big crane with a 4" hose hanging off the end.
You need a pump for that job.
If I was contracting the job, I would be charging more than the pump for the effort of manually moving the mud to the forms. Have to set up walk boards to each peir, get three guys to run wheelbarrows, plus two guys to shovel them into the forms, and everybody is gonna have to run, not walk, till the job is done.
Ask the pumper what his line waste is. Add that to the forms estimate , then add 10%.
The pumper must flush his equipment, have him dump the good 'crete back into the 'crete truck before you pour its' remaining load into your forms. The last bit out of the pump hose will be real watery going to clear water. Dump that on the ground.
Your contractor will handle everything above, you just be sure it's in the contract.
Set up enough small forms, stepping stones, stairs, cast flamingoes, . . . whatever, to handle 1 1/2 times the waste the GC figures. Or don't, but the 'crete truck drive is gonna really want to dump any excessSamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
"Have to set up walk boards to each peir, get three guys to run wheelbarrows, plus two guys to shovel them into the forms, and everybody is gonna have to run, not walk, till the job is done."The point furthest from the road where piers will be is 65 ft. If the truck can make it into driveway at side of property than greatest distance is 1/2 that. Given first scenario, 65 ft, won't line pump reach that? I'd called the pump truck gvuy but it's late here.Thanks for the other info, much appreciated.Kevin
The pumper I use routinely carries 200 ft of hose on the truck. Has a pickle at the business end (switch) to control the flow and the delivery driver keeps the hopper full. (and, actually pays attention)<G>
Just don't let them add water.
If the crew you hire can't coordinate the delivery and the second truck takes forever to show up, refuse the load.
Years ago I grabbed a sledgehammer to help clear the hose. It's no picnic.
will do, thanks.
Yep, line pumps are generally less expensive .
What Sam says above gets a thumbs up.
You really think 2-3 yards more? I'm already allowing for pump truck and with using pump, shouldn't that cut down on spillage? I'll wait for final design to get the amount but I assume you are getting number of yards based on my first post with the plywood forms.
I think you can figure the volume of the forms carefully and add one yard. I would absolutely use a boom pump since your house will be in the way the whole time. Chuting concrete into wall forms slows the whole thing down as the truck tries to move around to stay in position, and you'll probably wish you had one more guy. With the pump, one guy steers the hose and a second guy goes behind to rod and strike off. A third guy behind with the vibrator is ideal.
You will be able to empty two trucks very quickly and get them out of there. Then you can go back around in a leisurely manner and make sure all your j-bolts are in the right places and aren't buried, strike off cleanly, etc. Make sure not to "drop" any concrete more than 4 feet, less is better. The pump operator should have a remote control and should follow you around the job... don't hire a pump where the operator has to stand at the truck. Make sure they bring some extra hose to get you under the house to those piers.
Hey DaveGood to hear from ya! I'll be reviewing all the posts as the time draws closer and use your suggestions. I was searching for concrete form rental places on the internet. I'd prefer the piers to be square but don't want to pay 245 for a 12 foot sonotube with square insert. Might just go with the round and plant evergreen shrubs in front, 55 per 12 ft. I could build them, just not sure if there's enough time in the schedule.Thanks
Kevin
Doc,
Are you going to be doing this work? 'Cuz if you are, it would make a difference in how much and what kind of information I think you would need.
Column forms are easy to build and easy to rent. A buried foot of a column is easy to achieve by merely lifting the base of the coumn form and proper pour techniques.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
I'm not planning on doing it, but will if I have to. I'm on my third guy now, pretty sure he'll come through for me. You post it's easy to rent forms, I'm not having much luck finding them. Googled "concrete form rental NJ" without success, any suggestions?
I was thinking if I have to build them, just to speed things up, I'll do it at home, load them in truck and set them there. No electricity at site anyway, so not much choice. Would still prefer to rent if cost is comparable.
Thanks
Kevin
Is there a Carter-Waters nearby? Or ask your concrete plant where you can rent them.
Renting forms for a week is probably cheaper than building one-use forms. At 32" tall, you can only get 1 1/2 forms from a sheet of 3/4" ply, then you need the framing, 1 8' 2x4 per side and at least one waler band, much better to have two, at 8' each. So each pier, at 32"x16" takes a sheet of ply and 6 2x4x8 in material.
If money wasn't a big issue, I would suggest a latex mold for the outside face of the perimeter columns and tinting the 'crete for looks.
If you are going to do the forming yourself, figure it'll take four times as long as any contractor after you have the forms and, since he can amortize his reusable equipment and you can't, don't expect to save much money.
Some 16"x16"x32" form materials:
4 2x4x? base plates. (lay on sand, set cross bars on)
6-16 stakes (low num's if steel)
3-4 2x4x?' cross bars to hold the form in place
4 form sides
24 wedge pins for rented steel forms, 5# of various nails other wise
64" chamfer, or some other not-as-good method of determining concrete elevation
10' 6" chamfer for the side corners. (I like chamfered corners, real easy, look better, last longer)
Sill Anchors w/ 2x4x16" template
Did you say 57 piers? What can you do with 228 32"x16"x3/4" plywood pieces?SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
27 piers not 57, and that's the most it would be, engineer is going to tell me how many once he gets a look when house is up. I'm all for renting, believe me. Unlike other jobs, I'm not sure how much use I'll have for the wood later. I was thinking of possibly do square where they can be seen, sonotube out of site. Also thought sonotubes for the whole job, plant some evergreens so columns are never seen, or lattice attached to them, butting against one another, concealing column. Whatever is easiest will probably win out, there is a time factor here. I'd like to use it during the summer.ThanksKevinPS what's a waler band?
Edited 3/3/2007 9:35 pm ET by dockelly
what's a waler band?on a square pier it be a 2x run around the form to keep it from blowing out
thanks
27? Hmmmn? I musta been looking in a mirror when I hit the 5 instead o' the 2
5|2
See. Real close.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Hey Sam,I'm rethinking this whole project. Had a long talk with the house mover, and he strongly recommends a continuos foundation. Engineer said it would work fine. ICF, 2100 delivered. Form rental, I'm waiting on price. If I formed it with 4x8 3/4 plywood, wouldn't have to finish the foam exterior of the ICF. What to do with all that plywood, figured 28 sheets. Well, I plan on removing the first floor flooring and putting in subfloor and new hardwood flooring. Would some of that ply be OK for that, or does the concrete pretty much ruin it, could put concrete side down. Only need 12 sheets for floor.
Thanks
Kevin
Would some of that ply be OK for that, or does the concrete pretty much ruin it,
That's a resounding . . .maybe. As in, probably, if you water seal the 13 sheets before pouring. 13, 'cuz ya gotta have an extra. Better chance if you add an underlayment. Excellent possibility if the HW floor is NOT prefinished
You really should use a form release and that may stink for a while.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Excellent possibility if the HW floor is NOT prefinishedNot following you, how would it being prefinished make a difference? It is BTW.
I thought this was going to be poured right away? Kinda late to redesign isn't it?
I'll just throw out a thought since we see this all the time--everyone has an opinion and the mover is probably not the guy I'd listen to as for what type of foundation to use.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
There are sealed plans for the block method. I have to go back to engineer regardless for the poured method, wether it's piers or not. I agree everyone has an opinion, but the cost difference between the two is minimal if I use plywood forms. If general consensus is it's flat out better, than why not. If the house were already up in the air, I wouldn't even consider it.
Thanks for your input.
Kevin
Oh...
...I thought the house was already up in the air.
My bad.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
dock,
I used to re use form plywood as sub floor.
We used 3/4 " DF either ACX or CCPTS, well oiled for the pour then stripped very soon so it could be scraped, cleaned and let dry.
(Concrete would be covered with 6 mil visqeen to keep the mud damp for curing) (ACX or CCPTS are much cheaper than form ply)
Here are the problems: 1) The grades of ply I used are not as good a plywood as "form ply", too many interior voids, can cause small "bulges in the form. Not a big deal if it is all or mostly hidden, but not good if the wall is to be left exposed as in a basement . 2) The oiled form would smell from the form oils and if we used glue for the sub floor you had to put the oiled face up, nasty to work around, and slippery to boot. ( Of course we used to use good old deisel oil for form oil !) We would stand the ply around and let it air for as long as possible before installing instead of stacking it.
Ok for sheds , barns etc. but not nice for a house .
The VOC of the form oils have been virtually eliminated these days as have the "toxic" components that we used to use so I don't know how it would work today . Might find a source for a form oils that would work out Ok. I might be tempted to try a quick coat of cheap latex paint on the forms followed by a vegetable or bio-digradable form oil. Then wash the oil of promptly after the pour. But it can be done , and may save some $.
On the other hand if you are working with a mason or concrete contractor you might negotiate with to buy new form ply (either oiled ply or paper faced) and have him buy it from you right after the pour at some steep discount. I have done that in my life as well. Now one more option, use 2x stock for the forms instead of plywood. re use it for framing after it is cleaned. Done all the time out here and in many other places in the old days.
Edited 3/9/2007 9:29 pm by dovetail97128
went on a commerical job today, on the last footing contractor ran out of concrete, so he scoop a bucket of wet concrete out of the footing drop a bucket of sand in the void and put the wet concrete on top of sand to meet elevation. He did not mix the sand just used it to take up space. and he a commerical contractor
yea, and he probably has "Quality " somewhere in his logo .. ;-)
About the bucket of sand . What did you put in your report?
i went home
very professional of you.
Doc and Sam,
Regarding reusing or recovering plywood used for forms, I can at offer a method that most certainly does NOT work.
I also was interested in reusing plywood after I found out what form rental cost for a four foot stemwall (very complicated footing shape with brick ledge). Of course, the form oil is a problem so I primed all the plywood then WAXED it with floorwax. Two coats - to be safe! I figured, hey, it's wax, what's going to stick to WAX?
Well, I'll tell you one thing: (surprise!) concrete. Sticks like glue to wax. Peeling those forms off was no picnic. Roughly 1/3 of the primer (with the wax between the concrete and the primer, of course) peeled off the plywood and remained on the concrete. Took a few very ugly days to get all that plywood off. Oy, that hurt. Fortunately, it was below grade or behind brick veneer. - ruint
Sticks like that to automotive paint, too.
Don't ask me how I know.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
LMAO!
Actually thougth of wax, like ski wax. lot of wood to cover though, regardless of what I use. think i'll start a new thread asking this question. might not be worth it in long run.
Actually thougth of wax, like ski wax.
There are non-toxic alternatives that many concrete supply shops carry. I think many are vegateble oil based.
Personally, I'd thin liquid car wax way down and spray it. I suppose even parafin could be disolved in lacquer thinner and sprayed.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I checked out the vegetable oil stuff, and thought for 13-14 sheets it's just not worth it. However, I did come up with a use for the plywood. Sand castle forms!
dock, check out some fast food places near you ... some will give you oil.
" make sure all your j-bolts are in the right places and aren't buried"You know Dave, I've been thinking it might be better to set anchors bolts after house is set back down. The sill plate is 4" wide, 6" tall. The engineer called for a simpson tie down connecting sill plate to pier. When I used them to tie porch ledger to house, they had holes, not slots, for attachment. Not much room for error. Given that I'll be tearing out floor, I'll have room for the drill. Of course, if there's a slotted tie down available, putting a bolt in wet concrete would be easier.
When I did my place I installed new mudsills and built a short pony wall, so it was easy to roughly lay out the pony wall studs on the forms and then hang the j-bolts so they'd be out of the way. Sounds like your sitiation is different, and I don't think I'd try to lower a house onto existing bolts.
Yeah, that's what I thought. Especially if it has to stick 6-7" out of concrete to clear sill beam. I'll make the final decision once house is up.
http://www.boltdepot.com/product.aspx?cc=35&cs=141&cm=6&cd=1657thinking this might be the way to anchor sill plate. up to 12" long, stainless steel, 1/2 to 1/3 as many holes to drill, no epoxy needed, no bracket, less bolts. Con would be depth of hole, need a new bit to make it as easy as possible. What do you think, any experience with this method?
I've seen those at the lumber yard but I don't know if they are approved for foundation anchors (west coast and all that...) but what we always use for retro bolts is all-thread and Simpson ET22 epoxy. You need a good hammer drill with a depth stop, a compressor with a long blow gun, a bottle brush, the epoxy gun, all-thread/washers/nuts, and a chop box. If you are drilling fairly new concrete it should be very easy. Give some thought in advance as to the placement of your horizontal rebar and the future holes you will need to drill.
Re piers vs. continuous wall, I like the wall every time. For one thing, stuff can't get in your crawl space. With piers you may have creatures hiding out under there, and debris tends to blow under and stick against the piers (leaves, at the very least). Your insurance company and/or a future buyer might have a definite preference.
Re forms, I consider myself a good formsetter and can form whatever most subs can... BUT... they all own a trailer or flatbed full of form panels, 1-1/8" plywood 2' x 8' with a heavy coated surface (looks a lot like MDO). The guy who owns the form panels gets to build the forms. Otherwise you are buying and wasting a lot of plywood. If you are doing some framing on the job you can use 2x6 or larger and Simpson wedge ties very effectively. Works well if you have a lot of floor joists to run.
Here most residential forms are either 3/4 form ply panels with foundation clips or in the last few years 1/2 formply "box forms" built out of 1/2" formply and 2 x 3.
Banding is used to secure the forms to each other with spacers placed between the forms.
Dockelly could use 3/4 or 1/2 ply , it is all in the bracing and shoring for the panels.
I have done a lot of crawlers using 3/4 and then reusing the 2x whalers and shoring to build the house.
Interesting, pretty much all of it I've seen here is the thick stuff, and no 2x walers are used. I guess my main point is that he who owns the trailerload of panels gets to do the concrete work, in my book. The next job I'm doing has all I-joists so I'd have to use either the studs or the rafters to form. Ugh.
if you had a trailer full of metal forms. a rubber tire backhoe and three guys you could nake all the money you want here
Metal forms.... what are they.... can you cut them with a skilsaw if the house is a little shorter than the last one?
The only time I have seen metal forms set up on a residential job is in a tract where they were doing cookie cutter work. Otherwise everything I see is using CDX and 2x done by the carpenters, or plywood form panels and form ties if someone actually got it together to hire a concrete guy.
Forgot to say... don't I need to get a couple of DUI and CCW violations before I go into that trade?!
Edited 3/11/2007 1:57 pm by davidmeiland
Hey if you are interested I have a about 60 2 x 8 panels of 3/4 oilform , plus a whole slew of cutter panels , clips, 100's steel stakes (16" to 36"), metal pier pad rings, metal expansion plates etc. I want to get rid of.
Set you right up to do your own foundations.. you just have to supply the guys with the DUII's
;-)
Does it come with a remote control?
Seriously, put that stuff on craigslist and someone will bite.
. don't I need to get a couple of DUI and CCW violations before I go into that trade?!and a green card.
Two trucks spaced enough apart so concrete doen't sit, if all goes well.
When we would pour an ICF house out in the middle of nowhere, it wasn't uncommon to order the trucks together to minimize the risk of one of them being late (lost). We'd order fly ash (retards setting and makes pumping easier) and ask that they don't spin the drum in transit (also retards setting). As bad as it sounds, two drivers were less likely to get lost.
As the others have said, there's nothing worse than having a $300/hr. pump sitting full of mud hoping a truck will come over the horizon.
On the other hand if you are close to the plant and time consuming man-handling the line is in order, it makes sense to stager the two trucks. Local knowledge of what works best is valuable.
info on fly ash: http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/materialsgrp/flyash.htm
Good luck on the pour.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
ThanksI'll run it by the pro's as to which is best.
all pump operators say to use the pea stone , i would use the 3/4 stone for anything outside, and as far as the 4000# goes the extra powder makes it slide eisier in the rubber hose as opposed to the steel pipe that is used to transport the crete.. also he must be using a small line pump 2 1/2" hose instead of 5-6" line ... good luck. best advice take a deep breath and have a sit down with eng. and form guy.. "J"
http://www.toolbase.org/Technology-Inventory/Foundations/concrete-footing-pier-formsIf you google footing forms, you'll find a whole lot more of these things around. Somebody local must have something like it.
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The foottubes your using in this picture, are they for a porch? Are you going to have a beam across them with joists on top of that? Any pictures of how it went?
That is still down the road a piece.
They are [planned to have beam across and joists. I don't recall the photo you saw, but there is a pair of windows right there that will become french doors - primary entry..
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http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/at.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&guid=61190EF3-EB2E-44A4-89AE-18281AE010CC&frames=no
Hope this works, otherwise it was post # 5 that had the pictures I was talking about.
Were they already filled with concrete when you took the picture? Install instructions call for minimum of 3 ft of backfill prior to pour, wondered how much leeway there is with that, if 2 ft would suffice, maybe with additional bracing. Sure the manufacturer has some answers for that, just wondered what you did.
Edited 3/13/2007 8:01 pm ET by dockelly
They are still not poured. Waiting for the odd load where we can fit more crete on board. Friday we pour the slab and it will just exactly take one full truck, so they will wait for another time yet.Reason for backfilling - with that bell shape,they would float rught up as you poured withno soil on the base.
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contractor wanted 16", he's changing the way it's done. All concrete, no block. Maybe that'a why the thicker footing? I'll run it by the engineer. Also he wants to do a "bank pour". Says it means no form for the footing, just use the sand walls as the form. He would form out the column. BTW Sonotube makes a column now with a square insert out of foam so you end up with a square column. 12' round column is $55, 12" with the sq insert, $240.Thanks
Kevin
Sounds like he's using the thicker footing to eliminate the hassles of forming and stripping below grade.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Typical southern old school. I don't want to get in his way, but you could probably do this with half as much crete and no harder to form if he could refine his methods
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This is pretty good sand to dig, nice and firm if tide is low. He could probably get a almost perfect square with this kind of sand. I've had to remove bamboo there and planted roses etc, and hole held it's walls well. Having said that, holes may be unfilled for 24 hrs at least, that means two to three tide changes. By the time pour started all of them might be messed up. Like a sand castle gets wrecked by high tide.
As far as you being some guy off the internet telling him what to do, he's not that egotistical as to be offended. I imported him from my practice, a patient, currently working on Devil's Stadium in the NJ Meadowlands. Forms and pours concrete all day, actually a union carpenter. He'll be bringing a few coworkers, (Mason and Laborer) along for the job. He's worked under these conditions, wet soil, just not where my place is. My mason I had lined up for the job, the third one, can't give me a definite date and suggested I find someone if I definitely wanted it done for summer. Can't really blame the guy, township tied me up so long, he started other projects.
""currently working on Devil's Stadium in the NJ Meadowlands. Forms and pours concrete all day, actually a union carpenter. He'll be bringing a few coworkers, (Mason and Laborer) along for the job. He's worked under these conditions, wet soil, just not where my place is." My guess is his history is why he advocates the deeper footing. Not personaly responsible for paying for the mud, thinking it's cheap compared to labor for forming and faster to boot....commercial thinking . Matter of perspective.
Don't know what mud costs there, but here abouts maybe $90 yd.
so 3.5 x $90= $315 + pumping if you are pumping.
Figure out what the extra labor + materials would be to form it up, bank pours are not as accurate to calculate as forms, figure some extra mud for a bank pour.
But if I am assuming that you make the footing 6' deep as opposed to 16" that you will need to make up the 10" in pier hieght.
If so then that amounts to 1.5 yds. difference between thick footing and taller piers is really 2 yds.= $180.
I usually add 1/2 yd. for this size pour + 1/4-1/2 yd for a pump loss if pumping.
Called earlier with a incorrect number, 9 yards, and at 4000psi it was roughly $1200 delivered. Forgot to ask if it was a pump truck.
The pumper is a totally separate rig that you have to arange for.4000PSI???!!!!Again, why? - Did this come from the engineer?You certainly don't need that for your little cottage! 2500 to 3000 should do just fione.But
again don't take too much from me - maybe in your location there is a realistic reason - like needing to appraoch waterproof crete due to salt water incursion and the damage it can do.
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pump truck going be an additional $1000
$1281.50
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Told him 4000 cause I didn't have a number from the engineer, he thought it was probably more than I needed. I think the money for the pump truck would be worth it, do you think we would need two seperate trucks of crete, given the time to get it all out? I have to ask the concrete people about the waterproof concrete. I'm sure my guy has alot of answers to these questions, but since I'm here,:)
aint no such thing as waterproof concrete
brownie,
Just to hijack this thread for a bit...
Last big job I did we were shown some concrete that was developed in Australia that has an additive that the "claim" was made it water proof and acid proof. Had a number of documented uses in Australia, and was being pushed here in the NW.
Darn if I can remember just what it was called though. If I do i will pass it on .
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=86438.27BB If he says it's so, who am I to disagree? Although, your saying it ain't carries some weight. Now look what you did, I'm more confused than ever!
You don't need "waterproof." Concrete is like a sponge, porous, but generally not adversly effected by water. In fact, it uses water to get stronger for the first 100 years or so. Yeah, thats' right, one hundred.
You want salt resistant, which is a different characteristic than strength, although adding cement to increase strength does add some salt resistance. Sea salt disolves concrete.
Your concrete supplier can provide a formula at any desired strength that has a higher salt resistance than standard 'crete at the same strength.
There are formulas available for added freeze resistance too. Freezing damp 'crete makes it spall.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
What I was referring to is that when the PSI is over 4000, the crete "approaches" waterproof. It is not 100%, but it seriously slows the ingress of brine to attack the rebar.'course, here, right in the salt water, they would use epoxy coated steel and the 4000#.I don't think he needs either, just wondered why he had ordered such a strong mix
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yes there is 15,000 psi Micro- Sillica blend w/ 25 oz. of D C I and 10% water reducer per yard. we use it all the time in cast in place parking garages here in the n. east.....
""currently working on Devil's Stadium in the NJ Meadowlands. Forms and pours concrete all day, actually a union carpenter.
"My guess is his history is why he advocates the deeper footing."
concrete work in Jersey ...
deeper footings ...
Yeah ... it's easier to hide the bodies!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
waterproof concrete- that would mean that you could pour a basement wall and not have to worry about exterior waterproofing.spalling is the action fof the freeze thaw cycle. it is controlled with entrained air, a chemical that add air bubbles to the concrete so it will have area to expand. It also controls some cracking and makes the mix workable. Soif we add air bubble it wouls also add paths for water migration. so how can it be waterproof.salt itself does not really hurt concrete, but its hell on rebar. If waterproof concrete was needed, why do we coat rebar in epoxy.Now they is a chemical permabile concrete. It uses a portland #5. All it is is a different type portland that sulphur does not attack.
cost...cost...cost....
What I mean by that is that I would absolutely HATE to have a customer bring in a ringer from off th einternet to tell me how to do my work when I know why I chose a certain way. He can see what all the conditions are and what the engineers approved designs are - I can't.
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Just reread the post, footing was 12 inches not 16, my mistake. Now the changing from piers to continous foundation may end up with less of a footing. Porch will still have piers, probably the foottube you spoke of with a beam across tops holding up joists under porch. Set back so 6-12" of joist is cantilevered past beam. That way there won't be a semicircle of pier extending beyond porch edge.
27 piers 27 spills, 15 yards
LMAO!
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I figure no spillage.
I figure no spillage.you aint going get that lucky
While I don't claim perfection ...The fellows I order from mix to order on site. The numbers on my estimate are within .01 cuft of what they mix. That is on 22yds.1/2yd is a lot of concrete to get rid of.
I'm the result of spillage. I wish I had a reason; my flaws are open season
aren't we all? LMAO
Meanwhile, the rest of us build things here on earth.
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you just being contrary? if not, your hired!
Naw, he works for the ad department at Trojans.
This is where I come for my laughs! Very Funny.
dock,
Reading your replies here and what I think you are trying to accomplish I would advise a pause and a deep breath.
Talk to the engineer explain what the help there wants to do and WHY he wants to do it ( so you have to ask the guy who wants to change it why does he want to), get PSI needed, clear up the discrepencies in footing/pier forming, styles you are looking at.
Then re-connect with the guy doing the pour, go over quantities, pump or no pump, and then to your suplier of concrete to make the order.
Some suppliers will have a pump they either recommend or can help you find one, (One here actually owns their own )and will do the scheduling of the pump for you .
Others simply tell you it is up to you to arrange the pump , pay for it and schedule it.
What I am getting at is that if you read this thread there have been a bunch of changes , nothing is solid... solidify the plans and work.
I know this is what your trying to do , but I am just thinking best to take that deep breathe, pause and start over again.
Oh and who is buying/supplying the anchors for the tops of the piers?
" Oh and who is buying/supplying the anchors for the tops of the piers?"MeOne of the other things to run past engineer, can I retrofit the anchor bolts once house is down. I will probably have to replace all the sill plate and would prefer to have house down and than accurately place bolts. Just starting to figure that part out. As to taking a deep breath, this is all still in prepatory stage. I've already had engineer approve two different ways to do this, paid for same, and masons bailed. Trying to get a plan together before I have him seal the drawings this time.Thanks for your input,
Kevin
"I figure no spillage."
Once again, you show a complete lack of any practical experience in construction. Makes me wonder why you hang around here.
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.
If a pump is used you may want to add 1/2 to 1 yard. For the life of me, I can't see where an entire yard of mud can disapear to, but one particular large boom pump seems to eat nearly a yard each time.
One line pump operator we've used seemed to have a great deal of trouble each pour and he'd go through 1/4 yard getting the line primed and unplugged. We simply started allowing an entire yard for his pump, before changing companies.
For most things that are contined in well defined forms, such as what you seem to have, we add 10% for misc. waste and mis-calculations.
Then the number is rounded up to the nearest 1/2 yard.
In your case we'd order 12-1/2 yards without pump.
With the left over mud it's usually fairly easy to preform some useful-looking widget for use later. More than one sidewalk, planter, fence post base, stamped concrete practice or practice countertop has started life as concrete excess.
In other cases we have the excess spread across an area that will later get gravel. After it sets just enough to crumble it's easily broken up either by hand or skidsteer.
Good luck
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
"With the left over mud it's usually fairly easy to preform some useful-looking widget for use later. More than one sidewalk, planter, fence post base, stamped concrete practice or practice countertop has started life as concrete excess."Glad you said that. I will have to build two sets of steps to the porch with the house being 32" higher. Maybe I can form up the landing for the stringers and retrofit an anchor bolt to stringer via Simpson tie down of some sort. BI approved of course.
Back to the original Q of estimating concrete for footings - unless you are using forms, the holes aren't gonna be exactly the specified size; they might be close if they were all dug by hand, which I bet isn't gonna happen...
So my EXPERIENCE is that you will use a lot more concrete than your calculator tells you. If the footers are to be dug by a backhoe or an excavator, my guess is 20 yards including spillage. As far as actually ordering the concrete - the quantity doesn't matter that much - you all will just order 10+ - or at least that is the way we do it around here.
BTW - If you get a pump truck, have a big hole dug somewhere out of the way to have a place for the pump to do his washout, etc. Personally, I'd let the concrete contractor make the decision as to weather a pump is needed. Six hundred bucks is a lot to drop unless it's necessary. We can't see the layout of the footings nor can we see other site conditions from our keyboards.
I get the idea that you are retrofitting a new foundation under an existing house? If that is the case, is the house out of the way, or just jacked up in place.
just jacked up in place.
Jacked up 6 feet and the truck can't drive around the house.
Or was that 9'
6|9, the mirror effect, yahno?SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
LOL
As if typing isn't hard enough, you do it while looking in a mirror, show off! :)
Whichever way you go, ply or ICF, make sure the piers and walls are fully braced. When you think they are sufficiently braced, add a few more in those 'what if' spots, esp. down low where the pressure is max.
Not to look over your contractor's shoulder, but there is a general tendency to go a bit light in the bracing dept.
If the forms move or lift, they will gobble up more concrete. ICFs can move too, esp. at corners that are not 90deg. where you had to cut the forms by hand. Window or door openings in ICFs have to be carefully detailed in plywood.
On any pour, it is a good idea to have on standby: 2x4s, ply strips and screws, a couple circ saws on cords, a couple screwguns all charged up, a couple sledges.
thanks
OK - so how much concrete did you end up using?
None yet, decided to take the advice of the house mover and get a full foundation for the house, piers for the proch. It actually didn't add up to much more money, but is a better plan. Engineer has the plans, my drawings, about a week now. Probably won't get the sealed drawings back for another 3 weeks. Than we'll lift, form up and pour, footing one day, walls the next. I'll post pictures when I get started.