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How much hassle/$ to build root cellar??

JohnT8 | Posted in General Discussion on March 9, 2009 11:55am

I grew up in the country and we used to have a root cellar.  Concrete steps leading down to a concrete pad with a brick dome.  Dirt was piled on top, so it just looked like a bump in the yard.

The last couple years we’ve had a fair amount of tornado/wind storms blow through.  Neither my house nor my project house has a basement (crawlspace).  Ma’s house is also on a crawl.

I got to wondering how much $$ and hassle would it be to build a root celler to use as a tornado shelter?  I know they make fiberglass pods you can bury in your yard for a shelter, but they seem to cost thousands of $$.  Wondered if a concrete root cellar might be a possiblity.  Wouldn’t want to spend a fortune.  And wouldn’t want to end up with 2′ of water in it…but don’t really want to have to run electricity and put in a sump pump…

Anyone with comments?

 

jt8

lotsa worse things happen to better people than me every day. –Snort

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  1. JohnT8 | Mar 10, 2009 12:17am | #1

    Hmm.. .here's an old article in Mother Earth News where a person created a root celler from two concrete septic tanks.

    http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening/1983-07-01/A-Flatlanders-Root-Cellar.aspx

     

     

    jt8

    lotsa worse things happen to better people than me every day. --Snort

    1. collarandhames | Mar 10, 2009 05:24am | #9

      120 bucks?  Installed?  I'll take two! ;-) 

      1. JasonQ | Mar 10, 2009 02:20pm | #13

        120 bucks?  Installed?  I'll take two! ;-)

        No kidding.  But didja read the bill of materials tagline at the end?

        "excavation (one case of beer) 5.50 roofing cement 10.00 black polyethylene 10.00 lumber 35.00 grass seed and wire mesh 1.49 TOTAL $181.99"

        $5.50 for a case of beer?  I think I need $100 and a time machine.  I can barely get a 6-pack for that these days.

      2. JohnT8 | Mar 10, 2009 05:00pm | #16

        120 in 1983 dollars is probably 4-600 now.  Plus what are the chances that the backhoe guys are going to working right next door to ya?  So a day's rental is probably another $200.   And frankly, I'd rather have steps than a manhole/ladder.

         

         jt8

        lotsa worse things happen to better people than me every day. --Snort

  2. rdesigns | Mar 10, 2009 12:50am | #2

    Are you thinking of digging it out under your house?--deepening the crawl space?

    Or out in the backyard, separate from the house?

    I did the first (deepening crawl space), and it was a lot of work, but the expense was not too great--about $1200 for concrete blocks (walls) and about $800 for concrete floor and other stuff to finish it out.

    It's about 8 x 22 finished size (8' deep), but the size of the excavation had to be larger (10 x 24) to allow for the blocks to be laid up.

    It's actually a combination of wine cellar, root cellar, and curing cellar where I dry-cure prosciutto hams. Also a great cantina where my wife and I retreat during the heat of a summer afternoon for a glass of wine or homebrew. And maybe a slice or two of prosciutto. It has a tall cafe table with 4 stools in one end.

    The whole thing is finished out very nicely. (I might sound like I'm bragging here, but let me reassure you I am.) I plastered and painted the walls, epoxied the floor, and did the ceiling in ship-lapped 1 x 6, which I made from 2 x 6 framing lumber.

    My point is, there's a lot you can do for not much expense, but the labor is huge. I dug the whole thing out by hand, and each of the 65 pickup loads of dirt had to also be unloaded one shovelful at a time, by hand. Took 6 months for the excavation.

    1. User avater
      McDesign | Mar 10, 2009 12:56am | #3

      Man, that sounds great - just great

      I had the area under our kitchen dug out years ago (~13x13x8'), and I have a finished door on a landing on the way down to the basement laundry room in an addition, but haven't finished it - your description just may do it!

      1. rdesigns | Mar 23, 2009 02:31am | #27

        Here are a few uncaptioned pix of my wine cellar.

        The alternating step stair is accredited to Thomas Jefferson as the original designer.

         

        1. rdesigns | Mar 23, 2009 02:35am | #28

          Hmmmm. Sorry about the messed -up pix.

          Will try again later.

          1. Scott | Mar 23, 2009 08:06pm | #29

            They're not messed up...just way too big. You can optimize them for web use with something like irfanview (free).http://www.irfanview.comScott.

            Edited 3/23/2009 1:07 pm by Scott

    2. ponytl | Mar 10, 2009 01:25am | #4

      it's ok to brag... sounds nice...   being proud of have'n something based 100% on your own hard work...  just ain't a bad thing....

      when i was 17-19 i had dug a basement  25ft wide and 100+ ft long...  took it from 4-5ft to 8ft 10"    i had a gas powered tiller... and 5 gallon buckets...  i pulled everyone of those buckets up by hand (rope over a pulley)...  took almost 2 years... but... i got er done :)

      :) p

    3. ponytl | Mar 10, 2009 01:27am | #5

      why not a small shipping container?  sink it a few feet in the ground... just cover with tar where ever it will be in contact with the dirt...

      they use em for "grow houses around here... cash crops"

      p

    4. JohnT8 | Mar 10, 2009 03:14am | #6

      That sounds like a great space, but I was just thinking of in the yard.  Backhoe works faster than I do.

       jt8

      lotsa worse things happen to better people than me every day. --Snort

    5. TileGal | Mar 10, 2009 04:25am | #7

      I just finished reading the Mother Earth News art. (thanks JT8).  McDesign and I are hoping you have a few pics to share.  Pleeeeeease.

      Laura - hoping for motivation

      1. rdesigns | Mar 10, 2009 04:45pm | #15

        Laura and McD: (et al, if interested)

        Pix will be forthcoming.

        It'll be next week, because not till then will my digital camera be back, along with my 18-yr-old son who, unlike his parents, actually knows how to use it.

        I think you'll enjoy seeing the alternating step stairway I built to provide access from the garage down into the cellar--7' drop, with a total horizontal opening for the stairwell of only 7', but the stairway still allows for a 3' landing at the bottom, and each step has a rise of only 7-1/4" with an 11" tread.

        Also, the door into the cellar. It's made from recycled 2 x 6's that I got from a guy who was remodeling. They were a full 1-3/4" thick, beautiful old-growth Douglas fir. I made the door in the "plank and ledge" style with 1/2" oak splines joining the planks, and--here's the best part--actual door nails to join the planks to the ledges. (There's only one company in the US that still makes real door nails. You buy them long enough to drive thru and double-clinch the protruding end so that that the nail is "dead as a door-nail"--a nail was said to be "dead" in that it was immovable after double-clinching.)

        1. TileGal | Mar 10, 2009 05:09pm | #18

          I can't wait to see!  Thanks.

          1. User avater
            McDesign | Mar 10, 2009 06:53pm | #19

            Why aren't you making tile?  Back to work!

            Forrest

    6. JasonQ | Mar 10, 2009 02:13pm | #12

      It's actually a combination of wine cellar, root cellar, and curing cellar where I dry-cure prosciutto hams. Also a great cantina where my wife and I retreat during the heat of a summer afternoon for a glass of wine or homebrew. And maybe a slice or two of prosciutto. It has a tall cafe table with 4 stools in one end.

      I dunno nothing about buildin' no root cellar, but I do know one thing - wine and prosciutto?  I wanna be your friend.  : )

    7. Scott | Mar 10, 2009 09:55pm | #21

      >>>I dug the whole thing out by hand, and each of the 65 pickup loads of dirt had to also be unloaded one shovelful at a time, by hand. Took 6 months for the excavation.Holy smokes; that's a lot of work.Pics man, pics!!!Scott.

      1. rdesigns | Mar 11, 2009 12:39am | #22

        Pix coming next week as I mentioned in msg #16, where I confessed my ignorance of things digital, unless you consider fingers as being digital. With fingers, I can even do fractions, having lost part of a finger about 15 yrs. ago.

        1. pebble | Mar 11, 2009 01:21am | #23

          I think I want to do this.  I have a 10' x 20' crawlspace.  No outside access, just a hatch in the floor.

          Think if I fill up 10 - 20 five gallon buckets a day I could dig it out pretty good in 6 months?  Of course I would need to add footings as I go.

          1. junkhound | Mar 11, 2009 02:57am | #24

            No outside access

            Dig yourself a stairwell first!

          2. rdesigns | Mar 12, 2009 12:42am | #25

            A full 5-gal bucket is about 3/4 of a cubic foot, so it takes about 36 of them to equal a cubic yard (27 cu.ft.)

            If your 10 x 20 space needs to deepened by 6 feet, then you will be excavating 44 cu. yds., or about 1600 bucketfuls. 16 buckets/day for 100 days--that's just over 3 months. Go for it. It only takes about 5 or 6 good shovelfuls to fill each bucket.

            I learned the hard way that it's best not to empty the buckets into your pickup. Instead, scrounge around until you get 36 buckets. As you fill them, stack them in the truck and drive to wherever you'll be dumping, and you will unload your cu. yd. much more quickly than by shoveling it out of a truck bed. (It's all a 3/4-ton pickup can do to haul a full cu. yd. of dirt, so don't get carried away--your headlights will be aimed up into the trees as it is.)

            If you have a place you can dump the dirt, rocks, etc. on your own property, so much the better.

            Also, as you get deeper, the effort of raising the buckets will become greater, so I'd suggest rigging up a 2:1 pulley system to lift them, even though by then you'll have developed muscles you forgot you had.

            If your soil is stable, you can wait to do footings until the digging is done. Then pour your footings in a one-sided form (a 2 x 8 for the front side, and the dirt bank for the back side.) Make sure you footing lengths work out to be multiples of 8" so that standard concrete blocks can be used without cutting. (You can buy them in full- and half-lengths.)

            I suggest using blocks because you can lay up a few after supper each night. One bag of mortar mix will lay 20-25 blocks, depending on the joint thickness. It's easy to mix up a bag in a plastic mortar-mixing tub (about $10 at Home Depot) using a mixing hoe.

            Because I'm in a D-2 seismic zone, I had to get an engineered design ($200) to make mine earthquake-proof before I could get a building permit. This meant vertical #4 rebar every 2 ft, and horizontal steel webbing every 2 feet. The cores containing the vertical steel had to be filled with concrete. I doubt that your location will need such extensive reinforcing.

            To keep ground moisture out of your cellar, drape a curtain of 6-mil poly over the dirt banks that hangs all the way to the bottom of the footings. Then, whenever your blocks rise 2 ft. or so, dump pea gravel in between the back side of the blocks and the curtain. This will secure the poly and prevent the dirt bank from slumping into the void, as well as ensuring a dry cellar. Place 6-mil ply under your concrete floor if you have much ground moisture.

             

          3. pebble | Mar 12, 2009 06:09am | #26

            Thank you so much for the tips and advice!  I will start collecting buckets but actually no wait... I need to fill in some low spots around the house and in the backyard so for now I will put the dirt there. 

             

            Actually did you see in the new FHB that bit about the digging down a foot or so around the perimeter of the house and laying down first a foot or two of foamboard, then EPDM or 6 mil visqueen or similar and then attaching that to the below grade wall?  Then optionally placing a drain tube or just backfilling?  I probably need to do that first... just to be on the safe side drainage wise. 

             

            This should be fun.  I agree, someone should do one of these at least once in their life!

  3. junkhound | Mar 10, 2009 05:22am | #8

    Everybody should have the experience of digging out a crawl space once in their life!

    Don't recall if you went in the basement at Mom's house in Spfld, but Pop dug 80% of that out when I was a little kid, still remember carrying small buckets of Illinois clay up the basement stairs to 'help'. 

    10 years ago dug out the crawl space of a rental, lost 20# of fat doing it. Once is enough though<G>.

    One thing about central IL, you will not find any 4 ft diameter rocks that you have to dig a big hole below floor level to jack the rock into!

    1. Piffin | Mar 10, 2009 03:00pm | #14

      I've done enough for two lifetimes then.When I was about 6YO, Dad bought the house. By time I was 8YO, we were hearing more and more about nuclear bombs and cold waar etc. Then the Cuban missile crisis and bomb shelters were as popular as patio grills are now. We dug under. Then there was this job.... 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

    2. JohnT8 | Mar 10, 2009 05:08pm | #17

      Everybody should have the experience of digging out a crawl space once in their life!

      I dug out nine 24"x24"x9-ish" holes to pour bases for support columns in a crawl space.  Hard clay.  Pick and the bottom part of a small shovel.  Just enough headroom to sit upright.

      That much smaller experience than what several have mentioned here was nevertheless sufficient for me to come to the conclusion that if I ever wanted to dig out a crawl or basement, I would ramp heavy equipment down from the outside.

      but Pop dug 80% of that out when I was a little kid, still remember carrying small buckets of Illinois clay up the basement stairs to 'help'. 

      Yes, I remember it (had a woodstove down there).  I seem to remember being able to walk upright down there.   What did he do with all the dirt?

      One thing about central IL, you will not find any 4 ft diameter rocks that you have to dig a big hole below floor level to jack the rock into!

      Just hard clay and high water tables.jt8

      lotsa worse things happen to better people than me every day. --Snort

      1. junkhound | Mar 10, 2009 09:40pm | #20

        What did he do with all the dirt?

        Dumped it into hte homemade trailer and pulled it behind the Model A to uncles house on N. Walnut where there was a low spot.

        Edited 3/10/2009 2:40 pm ET by junkhound

  4. DavidxDoud | Mar 10, 2009 05:36am | #10

    labor can substitute for money, but there is no substitute for drainage...

    "there's enough for everyone"
    1. geoffhazel | Mar 23, 2009 10:19pm | #30

      I'll second the drainage. A friend of mine built a root cellar and even though it wasn't filling up with water, it was damp and much of what was stored got moldy.I'd say drainage AND ventilation are important considerations.

      1. User avater
        xxPaulCPxx | Mar 23, 2009 11:35pm | #31

        One of a million projects on this house is digging a basement.  I was thinking of putting one next to the house, possibly under the garage and covered patio (covered by an overhanging 2nd story).

        Exactly how close can you put a celler next to a foundation?

        Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!

        Look, just send me to my drawer.  This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.

        1. cussnu2 | Mar 24, 2009 12:28am | #32

          I think I'd opt for a skid steer and dig myself a ramp into the crawl space.  I worked hard to get this beer gut and ain't lettin hard work take it all away.

  5. jigs_n_fixtures@icloud.com | Mar 10, 2009 06:30am | #11

    Depending on how your ground lays out, you might consider just building a ramped earth structure at or above grade.  Solves all the drainage issues.

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