I am in a small ($2400.00) dispute as a sub with the contractor I built this screen porch for.
With out going into great detail, I agreed to do this job and was never asked how long it would take to complete.
I was responsible for all the carpentry work, including about eight piers and removal of the original 300sq.ft. porch and several piers. Since these photos I have installed lattice and all the screen doors.
The HO was never informed, nor did they ask the contractor how long it would take.
In these parts it is a legal requirement to state a completion date on all contracts.
At some point the HO became upset over the duration of the job. I handily looked into my worksheets and came up with the magic number. I also completed the job on time according to my estimates. The HO was NOT pleased that the contractor never informed them how long it would take and apparently had not asked up front.
I left the job on what I consider good terms with the HO although he told me there was gonna be trouble between them and the contractor.
I wish to have your opinions on how many working days would be reasonable to get this project complete using a skilled carpenter and one helper. I won’t even go into the weather issue we encountered this summer!
Thanks for you thoughts,
Eric
Replies
If you feel you did the project in a timely manner, then you did. From the pics I can tell tou must have experience so don't second guess yourself. Don't let someone else throw you off balance by planting a seed in your head that you didn't do a good job or a fast job be it a homeowner or another contractor.
There is always gonna be complainers so learn to shrug them off.
You did your job.
They didn't ever ask you to leave so they were in agreement with your being there.
They continued to pay you throughout the course of your construction.
Now that the job is complete they want to renegotiate.
They problem(s) - communication or otherwise - the HO is having with the GC is none of your concern. Don't let anyone tell you different.
Now what action should you take? Keep in mind, the other two parties are looking out for their own self-interests. You would be wise to do the same.
You can:
a) Sit back and do nothing, hoping it will all work out on its own.
b) Take the GC and HO to small claims court.
c) Put a lien on the property IMMIDIATELY. With such a beautiful new front porch the HO is certainly going to have the home refinanced to benifit from the new equity. This won't happen if your lien exists. This is your ace.
The last choice may sound extreme but the law provides this option to contrators and subs as a legal recourse. We shouldn't be reluctant to take advantage of it when it is needed.
One last point - how you handle this (and any other situation) sets a precident for future situations and relationships. So keep it professional. I asssure you there is nothing personal in any of this disaggreement.
BTW - BEAUTIFUL WORK!!!!
F.
In these parts it is a legal requirement to state a completion date on all contracts.
Are they trying to stiff you for the amount due based on that?
What "parts" (state/country) are you in?
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
Thanks Bob,
The cont. tells me he is not getting paid from the HO a huge % of the job and I am inclined to not believe him. He can't or wont say exactly why and the few piddly reasons he gives me don't amount to the amount he is telling me they are withholding.
I think the big issue here is that the HO feels deceived by the contractor because he subbed the job out which is something he has not done with them on other projects.
Here is Westchester County, NY. Home Improvement Contractor law states that all contracts shall contain a completion date. Personally I think that sucks and so do most of the other contractors, but that is another issue. He (the contractor) leaves the date blank and 99% of his clients will sgin the contract that way.
As for my agreement with the contractor, we had a written agreement for the price which I stuck to. He never asked for a completion date. We have a loooong history and is well aware of my speed v. quality. I was hired for the later.
Thanks,
Eric
There are 2 sides to every story. Accepting your's at face value, two words: Mechanic's Lien!
Matt
Edited 9/15/2003 7:51:04 PM ET by DIRISHINME
Thanks Matt,
I am a big believer in the two sides theory. Usually each person is about half right.
This story has three side; ho, gc, and me.
The lien is not out of the question. I will give it a little more time to see how things settle out.
Are you familiar withe the scene in A Bronx Tale where the kid keeps chasing his buddy for twenty bucks?......the boss pulls him aside and says" forget aboutit, for twenty buck you got rid of this guy forever, he'll never ask you for another thing as long as you live.
Thanls,
Eric
I'm curious...how long did it take?
From what you describe, and the pics, it looks like it took a while....and should have.Ditch
Thanks,
I was really hoping to get some input from others here, not because I have any doubts but just for a little back up...........
My worksheet totals came to 61 working days. We had the rainiest June in 100 years and my helper ( my son ) was out sick for 10 days and I still came in on the money (+-) a couple of days plus extras.
I am seriously starting to believe that even intelligent people are being led astray by these w/e warrior shows. I know one difficulty I have run into with time, is dealing with hardcore corporate types who are very "timeline" oriented when it comes to projects.
I always say that there probably isn't any other industry that is as far from an exact science as residential remodeling.
Another issue here was that the HO made a big mistake starting this project at the beginning of the summer and some how felt cheated that they were not able to use it!
Thanks,
Eric
Edited 9/15/2003 8:13:16 PM ET by firebird
nice job really nice job I can see why the gc used you as a sub and will want to again in the future
Eric that's a great looking project. That's not in Larchmont is it? Looks like it could have been one of the houses we drove by this morning. I'm Westchester based myself.
I can't estimate the project well enough from just those pictures to give you an accurate take on the time I would estimate something like that to take but, with some more data I certainly can. Perhaps you have a takeoff? So I would know the dimensions and quantities.
Questions,... when you say "My worksheet totals came to 61 working days. We had the rainiest June in 100 years and my helper ( my son ) was out sick for 10 days and I still came in on the money (+-) a couple of days plus extras." Does that mean you put in 61 days of work (488 labor hours) and your son/helper put in 51 days for 408 labor hours.
Or...
That you worked 35-1/2 days and your son worked 25-1/2 for a total of 61 days.
Re:"I always say that there probably isn't any other industry that is as far from an exact science as residential remodeling." While I absolutely understand why you are saying that I disagree with it. For one thing I can name say right of the bat that software development is a lot more inexact than residential remodeling and there are more. And yet people can still develop schedules for all that. The problem is most contractors have little skill or knowledge regarding the real science of schedule and time management.
When you described this GC some of my thoughts were hey I've worked for that guy too! A lot of these guys are GCs because of their connections and salesmanship and have little skill at estimating project costs and even less skill at estimating project schedules. I would say eight to nine times out of ten they make totally unrealistic scheduling predictions and requirements with their subs while giving (or in your GCs case avoiding) the same unrealistic information to their clients. Which just leads to ticked off and disappointed clients as you see in your GCs case.
Even when I try to talk about scheduling and time magement here in Breaktime I usally find myself talking to myself or the topic go no where.
When you said to Bob "The cont. tells me he is not getting paid from the HO a huge % of the job and I am inclined to not believe him. " that sounds to me like the GC is working on a Cost Plus Fixed Fee contract with the homeowner rather than a lump sum fixed price. Would I be correct on that? That may be where the problems lies. The GC since he COULDN'T estimate the job accurately himself sold the job on a Cost Plus Fixed Fee basis probably telling the Homeowner that it would take something like X to Y weeks and it ended up taking Z. In my opinion the GC absolutely should be the one to eat that. Especially considering where I think you said while you were working with liability he was paying for the Workers Comp? (or supposed to be paying for it). That makes you a Temporary Project Employee but and Employee none the less.
"As for my agreement with the contractor, we had a written agreement for the price which I stuck to. He never asked for a completion date. We have a loooong history and is well aware of my speed v. quality. I was hired for the later." On the other hand here your saying you gave the contractor a fixed price for the project. If there was nothing about time in the agreement with you he can't retroactively and unilaterally go back and amend that agreement to is satisfaction so you are once again in the right again on that.
Maybe the again with "The cont. tells me he is not getting paid from the HO a huge % of the job..." what you were saying before was the GC was working a fixed bid job and was crying to you that he wasn't operating with enough markup. That's his fault not yours!
View Image
ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com
Jerrald,
Thanks for the reply and for the compliments. Actually the location is in Chappaqua. It certainly is possible that you drove by it!
Perhaps you have a takeoff? So I would know the dimensions and quantities.
I do a very simple take-off that while not very sophisticated works very well for me. It is a legal pad with two columns on the right; headed labor / materials+subs.
The top of the page states the date, client and the per day labor charge I pull out of my head depending on the client and the difficulty of the project.
I know you want to stick me with a fork about right now!!!!!!
The porch was 320 sq. ft. Mahogany decking over cca framing. The roofing, gutters, electrical and stucco were handled and mostly (mis)coordinated by the GC.
The rail panels you see were fabricated on site using the same 1x6 Primed Rumpus (King Lumber) that is on the ceiling. The screens were also fabricated on site.
Questions,... when you say "My worksheet totals came to 61 working days. We had the rainiest June in 100 years and my helper ( my son ) was out sick for 10 days and I still came in on the money (+-) a couple of days plus extras." Does that mean you put in 61 days of work (488 labor hours) and your son/helper put in 51 days for 408 labor hours.
Or...
That you worked 35-1/2 days and your son worked 25-1/2 for a total of 61 days.
Jerrald, that means that I figured that it would take the two of us 61 working days to complete the project with no extras added.
Re:"I always say that there probably isn't any other industry that is as far from an exact science as residential remodeling." While I absolutely understand why you are saying that I disagree with it. For one thing I can name say right of the bat that software development is a lot more inexact than residential remodeling and there are more. And yet people can still develop schedules for all that. The problem is most contractors have little skill or knowledge regarding the real science of schedule and time management.
While I certainley cannot disagree with you; that certainly seems to be the best analogy I have come up with so far. I recently finished a kitchen addition/remodel in WP in a house that dates back to at least the early 1800's. How can you possibly apply science or formulas to projecting costs on a project like this? The HO is a physics professor and he certainly agrees with my analogy!
When you described this GC some of my thoughts were hey I've worked for that guy too! A lot of these guys are GCs because of their connections and salesmanship and have little skill at estimating project costs and even less skill at estimating project schedules. I would say eight to nine times out of ten they make totally unrealistic scheduling predictions and requirements with their subs while giving (or in your GCs case avoiding) the same unrealistic information to thier clients. Which just leads to ticked off and disappointed clients as you see in your GCs case.
You just hit the nail on the head thank you very much!!!!!! My concerns are vindicated right here.While I am sure that it is possible that you have actually worked for this guy I rather doubt it. On the other hand you probably know him or know of him. If you come real close (yourcontractor@aol.com) I will whisper his name in your ear.
Even when I try to talk about scheduling and time magement here in Breaktime I usally find myself talking to myself or the topic go no where.
You are in a league by yourself. Interesting that this afternoon I was perusing some old posts that i saved for reference and you were all over them. You are a very interesting and articulate person who no doubt could achieve success at whatever you set your mind to.
The GC went into this with a fixed price contract with no completion date stated in the contract which as you probably know is illegal in Westchester Count, NY. He had previously completed other work for the HO using his employees. The HO got pissed when they found out he was subbing the job out. This was after I was there a while. This shouldn't be thier concern but in a way I can understand it as they are both self employed as well.
The HO screwed up by not requiring a completion date on the contract. The GC screwed up not asking me for one and certainly was not willing to communicate that to the HO anyway. His strong point has become selling, After that he looses interest in the project and often finds himself putting out fires. Can you say communicate?
It's tough responding to your posts!!!!!!! I am so glad that you took the time to respond as I have alot of respect for you just based on what I have read here on Breaktme.
Perhaps we can get together sometime. I hope you have recuperated fully from the pneumonia and are feeling better now!
Thanks again for your time.
Eric Paulson
"hope you have recuperated fully from the pneumonia " Wow, thanks that was a while ago but thanks. I actually think coming down with pneumonia was a good thing in many ways but that's a long story.
"Actually the location is in Chappaqua. It certainly is possible that you drove by it! " Well I haven't been in Chappaqua in a few weeks but I would probably know exactly where it is in that I grew up went K-12 there, was in the Fire Department and Ambulance Corps there so I know my way around. It does however remind me of a house we drove by in Larchmont this morning though. Went to school at SUNY Purchase and I'm Katonah based now so I know the whole county very well.
"I do a very simple take-off that while not very sophisticated works very well for me. It is a legal pad with two columns on the right; headed labor / materials+subs." I was thinking if I had the quantities I could estimate the project with my software and it generates an estimate that tells me both the Costs and Prices (Markup for Overhead & Profit applied) for Labor, Materials & Externals (Subcontractors) and a Labor Hour figure. (click for screenshot). HOWEVER, while it does give me that budget Labor Hour figure that does not tell you how long in calendar days a project is going to take especially one that is out-of-doors as you obviously know. But then again there are ways to make reasonable predictions for completion times based on that baseline information.
"The top of the page states the date, client and the per day labor charge I pull out of my head depending on the client and the difficulty of the project.
I know you want to stick me with a fork about right now!!!!!! " Nah,... I think you're saying that thinking I'm going to come down on you because your estimating isn't computerized? Well you're not alone, believe me. Early this afternoon while in the Carmel HD I ran in to this carpenter who does a lot of work for on my better GC clients. I easily put him in my top ten if not top five list of carpenters I know and he's yellow legal pad all the way. I couldn't do that but he's comfortable with it. It's as projects get more complex and/or you start to have other people working for you that you really need the automated systems.
Off the top of my head I was thinking 61 production days sounds a little on the long side but I couldn't get a feel for the quantity of the detail from just the photos and when you know say "The screens were also fabricated on site." that's a lot of time I wouldn't have figured for. We would have sent them out to be fabricated. Still regardless you gave the guy a fixed price so he should have nothing to complain about. It was bad practice on his part not to ask you for a project schedule window. Also now that I think of it too 61 production days for a carpenter and a helper isn't that in that off the top of my head I guesstimated a long 30 days for two carpenters.
By the way did you see where just the other day I wrote ("Time is of the essence" clause...help! msg#34009.14):
Those 15 days cover things like rain delays, the late lumber delivery, your helper getting sick etc. The Murphy items. Things that may not cost you money but cost you time in the schedule. They're also there to pad against things that can cost you money too such as rework or missed estimates on certain tasks. But in general in a sequential schedule which I bet was what you were doing (continuous flow in other words) buffering a critical chain schedule (you were the critical chain) with a 25% contingency generally works. June was extraordinary here so maybe that might not have been enough buffer but that's easily handled with an agreement clause accounting for delays due to weather.
Also while your HO may give your GC a hard time about payment on this job, unless it was spelled out in the original agreement what the damages are for being late (liquidated damages) and the damage the client suffered by the contractor was "real" then they have got nothing to stand on and the GC will have to be paid. (see msg# 34009.11). You might want to tell your GC that and use the example I mentioned in that post. He's complaining and griping to you because he doesn't know about "time is of the essence" and "liquidated damages" and how hard it would be for the HO to win in that regard. Even though the County does have that law I have never heard of a case where it came down to that. I have to ask my lawyer sometime just what the potential ramification are in that regard. Most contractors I know just take the baseline estimate and double it but that's incredibly over padded and protected and just ridiculous too.
"The HO got pissed when they found out he was subbing the job out. This was after I was there a while. This shouldn't be thier concern but in a way I can understand it as they are both self employed as well. " This isn't and shouldn't be there concern at all. They agreed to a price and unless there was an item in the agreement saying the work can't be subbed out they are out of luck again. We're primarily a subcontractor to GCs and yet we sub out some of our work too so sometimes the guy actually doing the work on a project could be an employee of sub of a sub who is working for the GC. Although you have to be careful of that sometimes. While rare some jobs we've bid actually prohibit that in the specifications.
"Perhaps we can get together sometime." We definitely should. If you really enjoy projects like that we really should talk. Another contracting friend and I are batting around the idea of forming a company to do just that kind of work. It's something of an extension of what we've been doing jointly together already.
View Image
ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com
This is easy-
first contact the homeowner and find out exactly what the problem is.
second figure out whos problem it is
third realize in this world there are 2 kinds of problems, yours and everyone elses. If it aint your problem demand the money NOW! You agreed to build a deck for price X. You built the deck so it's pay up time.
mechanics liens work wonders
http://www.uslegalforms.com/constructionliens/new-york-mechanic-lien-forms.htm
_______________________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
Thanks,
I hope it won't come to that.
I actually had a good relationship w/ho and I may ask him to pay me direct and deduct it from his balance with the gc.........or else!!!!!!!
Thanks,
Eric
That might be a better plan. I have gone around the GC on a few occasions. That puts the problem back where it belongs...between the HO and GC.Ditch
My first thought is mechanics lien. Don't wait too long to make that decision. In some states, you only have thirty days after the invoice date to file, and in most states it is almost worthless unless they sell the place.
My second thought is that you are working under a shady contractor and the HO must know this by now. In my state, the model contract has something like twenty points that must be covered. If you omit one, the contract is nearly null and void if a dispuite like this comes up.
we also have a pay on invoice law not a pay if or when paid law for subs and labor.
But should I surmise that you are standing loose on this whole thing because you also have been circumventing the law a little in regards to your subcontractor status, insurance and taxes???? If so, maybe ebest to duck and run. Only cast stones if you are standing on solid ground.
Third, in answer to your actual question, which is hard to answer because of not knowing exact size, access conditions, and whether the railing was all custom or if it was a prebuilt, I say there are at least three full weeks for two men and I work some long days in that, so let's say a minimum of 360 hours.
Did you paint it too?
BTW, Looks like a might fine porch to me. Stick it to that GC if your storey is straight!
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks Piffen,
You are one I was hoping to hear from . I realized after my initial post that the title wasn't the best choice, people probably thinking some idiot wants them to do their estimates again!
But should I surmise that you are standing loose on this whole thing because you also have been circumventing the law a little in regards to your subcontractor status, insurance and taxes???? If so, maybe ebest to duck and run. Only cast stones if you are standing on solid ground.
You must have a remarkeable memory if you wrote that comment in reference to a past post. I am insured for liability. I don't have workmens comp., the GC pays that based on what he pays me. (as I am sure you know) He will 1099 me of course.
My second thought is that you are working under a shady contractor and the HO must know this by now.
Yeah, this is a known. I've known this guy and his family a loooong time. If he ain't puttin out fires, he's burning bridges behind him. He is constantly searching for subs in all the trades because he is not very well liked, nuff said. I have done a lot of work for this guy in the past and swore him off several times. I had a void in my schedule and some bills to pay and here I am.
I was really hoping to get some input from other guys as to timing. You are actually not to far off. My point is that with 25 years of experience I estimated almost exactly how long it would take......the problem is that no one asked and the GC never gave the HO a completion date in the contract that was signed before he even hired me!
I will try to get the HO to pay me directly which will infuriate the GC if he does. There are a few other complicating circumstances at play here like the fact that the GC is my landlord and a real a##hole one at that. I'm a slow learner sometimes........or just a beleiver in good human faith.......something that seems to be getting pretty scarce around these parts nowadays.
Thanks again,
Eric
My memory is like the weather. Some days you can see for miles and it's a beautiful view. Other days, the fog rolls in off the water...
;)
Anyway, you are likely to need to negotiate this without too much legal help other than a possible lien because of the position you put your self in. I feel for you and I know how it is - that too many good craftsmen are lousy businessmen so we have to learn the hard way. Just don't let it get you down.
Landlord? Yikkes! I won't get into that....
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
With out taking up a whole lot more of your time can you tell me what you meant when you said:
Anyway, you are likely to need to negotiate this without too much legal help other than a possible lien because of the position you put your self in.
I have liability (2 mill.), the GC is covering the comp and will 1099 me for the amount he paid me. What akward position does that put me in?
Thanks for your time.
Eric
Well, maybe it is different in your area, but here, the state defines the nature of a contractor and sunconter relationship pretty closely. The way you guys have it worked out is somewhere between that and employee. When somebody elects to step outside the definitions the state makes, they get left dangling in the wind when they try to take it to court so that most lawyers advise negotiating and accepting what they can get.
Often, that's the best advice anyway. And it sounds like what you plan to do.
There is something else nudging my mind all afternoon while I was working about your last post and my responce. It was that you mentioned that I was the one you hoped to hear from on this subject. I don't always accept compliments graciously for some reason and I thaank you for the confidence and all. But I'm quite sure there are others here who have run their businesses more professionally than I or who have more experience estimating than I do. This site is a sort of Master-mind (maybe a little neurotic or schitzophrenic at times) and I'm just a few cells and synapses in its cerebellum.
i just happen to get more attention because I'm prolific at respoinding but that does not mean that I'm more right or whatever. Hope you see other advice as well..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
That was a compliment, however it was not directed soley at you.
You are one I was hoping to hear from .
One of many is what I meant. A rap to the knuckles from the English teacher!
This board is a very interesting place; I visit much more than participate, probably due to time constraints. I consider the feedback I would hope to get from any post I put here, that of a jury of my peers. This is especially true because over the years I have somewhat secluded my self from the construction community around here for a number of reasons and to some extent just by default.
I sincerely appreciate any and all responses to my posts. I will let everyone know the outcome when it becomes apparent.
Thanks,
Eric
firebird.. it sounds like the HO is a jerk too, he was there observing your progress.. was he unhappy with your progress ?
... apparently so.... but ... suppose a completion date had been agreed to ..61 days../ 2 men = 30 days .. 6 weeks... nice hustle.. with slippage , say 8 weeks.. did it take 8 weeks ?
if it did... would the HO have agreed to that upfront ?.. no ?.. then he's a jerk.. and has no concept of what a job should take for quality work..
now.. after the fact, he's withholding payment from your GC, because a time of completion was NOT included.... suppose one had been included , and it wasn't met ?
then what is the recourse ?.. is there also a liquidated damages penalty clause ? no, there isn't .. so the completion date means nothing...."Time is of teh Essence " means nothing unless there is a stated remedy
something smells here.. you did a great job ,in atimely fashion, and now the money isn't forthcomming... find out what the real story is ... and lien the property.... or.. give notice that your only recourse is to lien the property.. that may get everyone's attentionMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Thanks for youe response.
61 working days is 12 weeks @ 5 working days per week.
I'm not suggesting that you are confused but there is a BIG difference between the two!
This was just a huge trim job with a really crappy set of plans..........all views and details on one page if you can believe that. Maybe that why I figured so long from the start, because I knew from experience how much time would be needed to scratch my head or get desicions from the HO or the GC.
Thanks again,
Eric
I put a lien on the house so quick or start taking the porch off the house
It looks like a very nice job. If all you are fighting over is $2800, I don't see how you could have been unreasonable, but in any event it is irrelevant. The GC hired you to do the job and if he did not get a firm price from you or a firm completion date, that is his problem. He should pay you and if he has a problem with the amount then he does not need to use you again. If he is not going to pay you, you don't want to work for him again. If you gave him a price and are way over it, that is another story.
Thanks Shell,
I gave him a firm price and stuck to it with only a few extras which were requested and priced out ahead of time.
He never asked about time other than the initial conversation I had with him during which I told him" If you want fast our conversation is over; if you want good than I will consider doing the job for you."
Apparently there was no agrement between the GC and the HO as to time.
I've been working in the field for 25 years and have become pretty damn good at estimating time needed to complete. The GC on the other hand has been driving a desk. Not that there is any thing wrong with that but one should gather useful information on which to base facts upon.
Thanks,
Eric