I seem to run into this all the time lately. Probably half the prints I get have multiple wall heights. And there’s rarely any agreement on exactly how tall the walls should be.
For instance – I’m working on one now that has both 8′ and 10′ walls. For 8′ walls, virtually everyone uses 92 5/8″ precut studs, which gives them an 8′ 1 1/8″ wall.
But what about the 10′ wall? Is it 10′ 0″, or 10′ 1 1/8″ tall ???
Doesn’t seem like there’s EVER a consensus. On every job we seem to battle this. The framer thinks one thing, the GC another, and the HO doesn’t seem to know WHAT to think.
The prints are rarely any help. The one I have now is nothing but a hand drawn floor plan (with dimensional errors) and the elevation is a picture out of a magazine.
Just curious how many of you guys face this, and how you resolve it.
The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. [Albert Einstein]
Replies
That's strange.
On my drawings the wall is defined on the elevations or sections to be exactly what it is - 8'2.5" on the last one ( or 'build to match existing wall height' for remodels/additions)
So there are people who actually try to build something complicated without any plans? What a waste of time and money for every sub and supplier out there!
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IBut what about the 10' wall?
Well, that would depend on the plans, sadly enough.
If the plans only give a generic height, then I guess a generic answer is the best you can hope for.
If the plans give a ceiling height, in days of old that was presumed to be the finished floor to finished ceiling height, and one ciphered accordingly.
Said ciphering being more complicated by the wide range of ways we build floors nowadays (is there RFH, CBU, luan for carpet, etc.)
So, for your plans, what you really need is a declared plate height. That would neatly solver your immediate problem. Might be diffucult to get folk who draft on cardboard up to that level of sophistication, though.
My 8' walls are 8' 4-1/2" so my 10' walls are 10'4-1/2".
I expect your 10' walls should be 10' 1-1/8".
But you might ask the guy with the pencil.
Boss,
Deciphering your 8' wall;
8' 1 1/8' - 8' DW =1 1/8'
1 1/8" - 1/2 DW ceiling = 5/8"
5/8" - 1/2" flooring = 1/8" clear
Ciphering the 10' wall;
10' DW?
+ 1/2"-5/8" ceiling?
+ 3/4"-1 1/4" Flooring?
+ 1/8-1/4" clear
= 10' 1 7/8" to 10' 3 1/8"?
subtract 3", 4 1/2", or 6" for stud length.
If you're using 8' DW with a ~2' piece, you can use whatever stud and the DW'ers will fix it.
So you can see that it is easy to tell that your 10' wall is exactly. . .uh. . .between 9' and 11' tall (|:>)
SamT
The local yards here sell 8',9',& 10' precuts. They are all 3 3/8" less than said length.
Ok, why are they 3-3/8" short? One bottom plate and two top plates is 4-1/2".
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Work only with 8' example given "all are 3-3/8" shorter".
Pre cut stud= 92-5/8" + 4-1/2" (plates) = 8'1-1/8" rough framing hieght.
Assume 5/8" drywall ceiling; 8'1-1/8" - 5/8" = 8'0-1/2" finished ceiling hieght.
I always assumed the 1/2" additional was a bit of clearance for floor finish.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Jayzog - Where are you located? We are on Long Island, NY and I've never seen 9" precuts. Studs are hard enought to find. Samw with 10s. Never saw a 10' precut here.
Don
Northern Westchester County.
Why 3 3/8? I assume to allow for finishes & a finished height of 8'
Is the Muscoot Inn still in Business on Rt. 100 in Somers ?
Had a couple of beers there on friday.
Don,
I believe you can get 9' from RBS (Riverhead Building Supply). They have 7 locations as far west as Mineola.
Thanks TGNY. I deal with Riverhead on a regular basis. I'll check with them next time I talk them. I know they can order nearly anything. (Most of my recent business has been with another, closer yard.)
Don
I framed a custom home a couple of years ago that called out 8'-0" wall height on the second floor, so the lumber yard provided 92 5/8" studs. No big deal, except the roof trusses from some areas of the first floor should have planed into the second story trusses, but mysteriously came up 1 1/8" lower.
Most plans I see say in the general notes that all dimensiions are to framing.
I am with Piffin on this one. Drawings that don't dimension wall heights, or at least rough floor exact elevations, are leaving out important and critical information. Unfortunately, it means you have to go back to the source of decisions to get info on how they will build the wall.
In my market I can get precut 8s and 9s in both 2x4 and 2x6, but not precut 10s. If I was building from a set of cheapo plans that called out 10' walls without support dimensions, then I would build the walls using uncut 10s and thus, the walls would be 10'-4 1/2" tall.
For others questioning why the precuts are the length they are, that 1-1/8" over nominal for wall heights, when using precuts, is to allow for sheetrock thickness at the ceiling, then a fudge or jack-up margin at the bottom, and still use standard-width sheetrock.
But, when you get to 10' walls, there is no way to horizontally lay rock and use two standard widths.
Boss,
Good Question!
I have never had a problem with wall heights as long as I make the difference in the walls correct, either on pitch or by call-out. So a 10’ tall wall is 2’ taller than an 8’ wall or 1’ taller than a 9’wall, etc. Same rules for apply for diminishing wall heights. Use “Call-outs” or “on Pitch” , on pitch usually takes priority.
If a detail from the plan or the Truss Co. shows a different HAP then that is adjusted for “####” specified. Second floor, floor thickness can screw up the call-outs if not on-pitch.
In this business “You have to be smarter than the plans.” Most plans are pretty dumb!
And rule number two; “When in doubt (about how smart you are? Or the plan’s so dumb it make you dumb too.), make a call to your Truss Supplier and ask.”
"Cha-ching... $.02."
Edit; Our Call-outs typically frame 1-1/8" over.
Edited 9/13/2005 12:45 pm ET by MrJalapeno
"You have to be smarter than the plans"
I like that line.
"When in doubt (about how smart you are? Or the plan’s so dumb it make you dumb too.), make a call to your Truss Supplier and ask."
That's part of the problem, I think - They seem to think it's up to us to tell 'em. No one wants to make a decision. That way they think they don't have any responsibility.
I used to have a morbid fear of ladders, but I got help. I joined a 12-step program
Boss,
"That's part of the problem, I think - They seem to think it's up to us to tell 'em. No one wants to make a decision. That way they think they don't have any responsibility."
That's an Idiotic thought process there.
I figure it's my responsibility to avoid mistakes. Sometimes, all it takes is... a phone call.
I think it's idiotic too. But that seems to be the norm. I ahve customers who refuse to look at a layout before the trusses show up. That way if anything's wrong, it isn't their fault. Fortunately most aren't that way. But the ones who are sure are annoying...
Our secrtary does her nails with white-out. When she dozes off, I go over there and write misspelled words on them.
That's why I say,<!----><!----><!---->
"I don't mean to be annoying, It just comes naturally”<!----><!---->
(snicker…snicker…snort!) ;D<!----><!---->
I gotta git back t’work…by...<!----><!---->
I seem to run into this all the time lately. Probably half the prints I get have multiple wall heights. And there's rarely any agreement on exactly how tall the walls should be.
Hmmmm, if I remember correctly Boss, when I started ranting about the lack of information on some of the truss plans that we get, you chastised me. I find it somewhat comical that you're now quoting one of my exact complaints!
Luckily for us, around here, the truss companies (or their designers) are now well trained ;). Around here, they automatically calculate everything from the common difference. If an eight foot wall is 8-1 1/8, then the ten foot wall will be exactly 2' taller. That approach is logical and it works. 99.99% of the plans we see show ceilings as 8', 9', 10', etc. When we rough it, we automatically know that the plan dimension is nominal, just like a 2x6 isn't 2" x 6".
But!!!!!!! Just because we all know and understand what the heights are going to be, doesn't mean we can go full steam ahead without checking to verify what we think is right. For us, the way we prebuild everything, it is imperative that we are all on the same page. It's not fun raising or lowering a complicated cornice system, simply because a truss designer decided to make a 12' tall wall only twelve feet tall! We absolutely, 100% have to know what the actual trusses are, in terms of length, pitch and heel height.
When we are dealing with a complicated situation, I also verify that every truss matches it's paperwork. I simply can't (or won't) risk the 25 or 40 hours that it would take to fix something that we could've avoided with a careful analysis of the trusses.
I think I mentioned that I've had to spend as much as 12 hours studying one house package, before I could even get started on the deck!
With that thought in mind, here's what I expect from the best truss designers. I expect them to not only design the truss, but I also expect them to explicitly explain what every bearing height is, as well as every projection. Of course, I also need to know the span, pitch and heel height of every truss. When I run into truss companies that won't provide this very basic information, I never fail to badmouth them at every opportunity and of course I suggest the companies that offer the better informational package.
You said "They seem to think it's up to us to tell 'em. " , and I say, yes, it is up to you to tell them! You're taking the plan dimensions, which we all know is nominal, and you are working to exact numbers. Since you can generate the exact numbers for each heel with the push of a button, I think it's in everyone's best interest to convey that information to the builder, by means of the detail drawings, or truss plans.
Are we in agreement here on this issue?
blue
No, we're not in agreement at all. It's not up to me to tell the framer or GC what to do. I think the opposite is true. They're the ones who have to build the thing - Wall heights are just numbers on paper to me.I realize that you and I are in different situations to some degree. You often have trusses ordered and/or built BEFORE you start framing. Around here, that's virtually NEVER the case. Some framers don't even order the trusses until the deck is on.
Why do they call it "Oriental Strand Board"???
Boss.
It seemed like you asked such a simple question.
Assuming that you are dealing with new construction, all of your wall heights will be 1-1/8" over the stated height.
I have heard of different areas having different precut stud lengths, but I have never seen anything other than the ones that you are using.
Here in Southeast Louisiana we can get 8', 9', 10', 11', and 12' Precut studs. And all of these will create walls 1-1/8" over the nominal height.
i dont think you want to to end up with a little rip of drywall.somebody mentioned 8' studs ,plus 4 1/2" of plate.not that i care about the drywall guys.one joint is better than two.
You obvoiusly have not learned wht the little black diamonds on your tape are for!!
truss designer, schmuss designer!
:)
Mr. T. MOTOL
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
Funny you should mention the black diamonds..........A couple of days ago I was talking to a DIY about his house. He's nearly ready for his roof trusses. He said the floor went down really well, but they had to rip an inch or so off the end of each sheet of subfloor plywood. Obviously, I asked why. He said they didn't understand the layout, and set all the floor trusses 19" O.C. instead of 19.2" O.C.
A career is like hair color; There's no harm in considering a change. [Téa Leoni]
8' studs + 4-1/2" plates:Some people put a rip of plywood behind the floor molding.
there are many solutions.just a thought.hope the drywall hanger realize the baseboards are 5" tall.
"I realize that you and I are in different situations to some degree. You often have trusses ordered and/or built BEFORE you start framing."
Actually Boss, we write it into our contract that the trusses have to be ONSITE before we start anything! Now, we've included a paragraph that requires all the paperwork to be onsite too!
"It's not up to me to tell the framer or GC what to do. I think the opposite is true. They're the ones who have to build the thing - Wall heights are just numbers on paper to me."
Boss, I think, in most cases, that you have been told what to do. You're given a plan, it gives the heights of the ceilings, it gives the pitch, it shows the height of the fascia, it shows the projections. What else would you want/need. After taking all of these parameters, the only thing you have left is the starting point. Since you build in a neighborhood that uses 92 5/8" studs, I don't see how you could logically do it any other way than to add 12", 24", 36" etc to the 92 5/8". But I also don't understand why you would want someone with less truss desingning experience to dictate heights to you. I would think it would make your job harder.
I rarely see detailed wall heights, or truss heel numbers on the plans. In fact, I just recently studied an upcoming set of plans that we will be framing. Surprisingly, there was a note that dictated a heel height in one area. My gut reaction upon seeing this note was "uh oh....this could be a problem". One might wonder why I would react that way. Experience tells me that when an architect dictates one heel, in one area, without doing all the other details, it could lead to some weird truss designs because the designer feels like he has to hit that number, even though it might not be logical.
One thing I just need to know: is it a big problem for the truss designer to indicate the heel height, and plate height? From what I understand about the geometry involved in designing trusses, I think it would be a very simple calculation. I'm thinking that each truss end would have a height above finish floor, on every detail sheet.
Maybe I don't know enough about truss design software. I know this: you guys have to know how much differential you are creating between every point in the equation...why not just give us that information without making us beg? I really wouldn't care how you gave it to me. Just tell me how high above sea level each heel is....I'll calculate the difference.
blue
"You're given a plan, it gives the heights of the ceilings.."
You obviously are getting different plans than I'm getting. Did you see the one I posted here that was drawn on corrugated cardboard with magic markers?
We often get people that tear a page out of a plan book, and use that as their "blueprint".
"I don't see how you could logically do it any other way than to add 12", 24", 36" etc to the 92 5/8"."
That would make sense to me. But everyone has different ideas. Hence the problem.
"why not just give us that information without making us beg?"
We've been over and over that before. I agree that truss companies should give you the info you want. But I don't see why you're busting my chops about it.
Looking at it the other way - If you were framing a house witout a decent plan, why in the world is it so hard for you to tell *ME* what wall heights you're going to build stuff at?
Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others.
Looking at it the other way - If you were framing a house witout a decent plan, why in the world is it so hard for you to tell *ME* what wall heights you're going to build stuff at?
Bingo!
The last employment I had was for an upscale builder, running the cabinet shop. His houses were great, plans were awful. Inside and outside wall dimensions often varied by several feet. Didn't take long to figure out a solution.
With each new set of "plans" the foreman and I would get together, decide on dimensions and mark both sets. These became the official master plans that everybody had to work from. We left the "designer", our boss, out of it.
Worked out just fine. Just gotta figure out who's making the decisions. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I love people who are capable of making decisions. They make the world go 'roundonly problem is, some want it to spin the wrong way!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
only problem is, some want it to spin the wrong way!
How'd you know? It it that obvious I don't always go with the flow? Or are you really omniscient, as some here assert?
Currently temporarily working with a GC's crew on reinforced concrete. I'm supposed to be the skill guy (having risked my life with several hundred tons over my head here). Unfortunately they won't take my direction. A week ago I resigned and was begged back in. Had a pour Friday (against my better judgement) after I left for D.C.
GC called early today to tell me they hadn't followed my directions about buttoning up the corners- got some interesting walls. He also thinks the plywood forms were a problem, but I'll get him straightened out tomorrow. Won't happen with his crew though. No chance they'll be interested in listening to me. Isn't even decision-by-committee, everybody does pretty much whatever he feels like.
This is 2 pours out of 2 that worked that way. 2 to go. Wonder what the stairs'll look like.... PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Boss, I noticed you dodged the questions that I asked.
When you design trusses, does the software automatically generate a height above finish floor?
After you answer that, you'll know why I'm bustin' chops.
If you don't give us that information we are forced to reverse engineer both the plans, and your actual truss parts. While we're doing that, we are losing money...a lot of money.
It should be obvious why I'm busting the chops of truss designers that don't give all the info out. If they think they have a legitimate beef because the plans are weak, we have a DOUBLE beef if the truss supplier witholds information that they obviously MUST HAVE ALREADY DECIDED!
It would be impossible for you guys to complete a set of trusses unless you knew every wall height and every heel. True?
If it's true, then let us know too, eh?
blue
Seems like you keep going over the same ground over and over. Are you even READING my responses ???The software we use doesn't generate ANYTHING automatically. You have to input every wall, heel height, overhang, ceiling and roof plane. Thinking that the software automatically generates stuff is just as ridiculous as thinking that a nail gun can automatically nail a wall together. As I've told you over and over, I agree that if the trusses are built and on site BEFORE you start framing that the truss company shoud be willing to provide you with whatever documentation you want. But that's not the case around here. You situation does NOT apply to mine.So being as the reverse is true - That the framer is the one who picks the wall heights around here - Don't you think it's reasonable that they share this info with the truss guy ???
My Wife is always late. Her ancestors arrived on the Juneflower.
Seems like you keep going over the same ground over and over. Are you even READING my responses ???
The software we use doesn't generate ANYTHING automatically. You have to input every wall, heel height, overhang, ceiling and roof plane.
Umm, getting a little testy? That's the first time you've said that the software doesn't generate anything automatically.
So, what does the software generate in terms of rise? Nothing? I seriously doubt that.
Let me explain what I think happens. You tell me if I'm wrong: You start with either a first floor wall height of 97 1/8" or a second floor height. The second floor height would be a combination of the deck plus another 97 1/8'' for a total of 17-01/4".
From that height, all heights rise and fall according the the span (which you input), pitch (which you input) and the heel (which your input based on two or three starting point factors).
Basically, using the spans, each wall height will be a factor of the first overall height, which YOU input!
All I'm saying is that if you have a beef with the plans because of their less that stellar details, we have a much bigger dilema because we also have that less-than-stellar set of plans, plus we KNOW you must know what every overall roof height, at EVERY POINT IN THE PLANS IS!
I'm beginning to think you've become some embittered truss designer and you intentionally withold pertinent information, just to spite framers!
I can't think of one reason why a truss company wouldn't provide every tidbit that I'm beefin' about, but they do. I know....I've had to sort these messes out many times without the proper information. I do a lot less of this detective work now, because I'm a bit smarter. Now I insist on the information, or I don't start the house!
blue
"That's the first time you've said that the software doesn't generate anything automatically."
Not at all. I've told you that several times.
"all heights rise and fall according the the span (which you input), pitch (which you input) and the heel (which your input based on two or three starting point factors)."
That's close enough for government work. My whole point in this thread is that you have to know what to input. Once you're missng info, you either guess or stop until you find the right answer.
"All I'm saying is that if you have a beef with the plans because of their less that stellar details, we have a much bigger dilema..."
That was my whole point from post #1 in this thread. The plans around here suck.
Next time you see one of those "plan books" in the grovery store line, open it up and look at one of the plans. Then try to imagine designing trusses for that house when the owner/builder is using that for their plan and don't have a clue what they're doing.
Did you see the pic I posted here of the "bluepting" drawn on corrugated cardboard ??? That's the kind of stuff I work with.
"I'm beginning to think you've become some embittered truss designer and you intentionally withold pertinent information, just to spite framers!"
That's a stupid comment, and you know better. I've told you many times that I provide anything framers, GCs, and architects ask me to.
"I can't think of one reason why a truss company wouldn't provide every tidbit that I'm beefin' about, but they do."
Then take it up with THEM, and quit bitching at me.
If men had periods, they'd brag about the size of their tampons.
In california it is 92 1/4" studs from the yard.plus 4 1/2" of plate.
Like a few (fishdog) insinuated above - it's all about having the drywall fit.
"8' wall" - We commonly use 93" studs, so add in 3 plates (4.5") end up with a rough ceiling height of 97.5". So, you hang a 1/2" drywall lid on it and you end up with 97" and 4' wide drywall sheets meaning a 1" gap at the bottom of the wall that will be covered by base.
Maybe we are a little slow to catch on to building trends here in the south - I wish we had 92 5/8" or even 92 1/2" studs available - that 1" gap at the bottom is a little large - not so good for air sealing (that's one thing drywall does) and also the base molding can tilt in if you are using the cheap (narrow) stuff. The 92 5/8" studs will yield a bottom gap of 5/8". The base molding especially gets messed up by the carpet guy's carpet stretcher.
"9' wall - 105" studs used to be the standard meaning that the drywall gap at the bottom was, again, 1". (we use 54" drywall for 9' walls). Now some yards are carrying the 104 5/8" studs - giving a bottom drywall gap of 5/8". It's all I want. No more 105s for me if I can help it.
10' walls - no "precut" studs available - just 10' (120") boards. So you either have to cut every stud to 116 5/8" to end up with a 121 1/8 rough ceiling height meaning that you use exactly 2.5 4' drywall boards to cover the wall. Or if you use them at their full 10' length you end up with 124.5" ceiling height and a bunch of wasted drywall. I put it on the framers and have them cut all the studs - and I let them know when they are pricing the job.
So, guessing that maybe there are no "precut" studs for 10' walls available where you live, it might be the same deal.
Matt, we've never had precut 10'ers around these parts either. We custom cut all of them to (92 5/8" +24").
blue
I don't know what the plans for my home specific (rednext track builder), but the homes got sold as having 9' ceilings and ar actually 8'9-1/3" tall.