I’m kinda curious how y’all would approach this situation.
Husband and Wife are thinking about building a new home. They have plans in hand when they come to us.
We meet them at their house in the country. Older house, needs work. Is to small for them and their kids. They’re gonna build on property that they already own right next door.
The Wife just wants the thing built. Husband wants it shelled up and he’s gonna finish it.
The Husband has done some remodeling work on the house he lives in. He’s competent, but not exceptionally talented. He’s also busy and I suspect grossly underestimates the amount of time he will have to invest in finishing out the house.
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My question is this – How would you sell the guy on hiring you to finish it? You can’t very well go in and tell him he’s not good enough to do it – That would only tick the guy off and pretty much guarantee that you won’t get the job.
What’s gonna convince him that he’s better off to hire it done rather than finish it himself? And how do you do that without bruising his ego?
There is no accounting for taste, poor or otherwise.
Replies
Build what he wants, after wife notices you did the shell in a (pick a day) she'll be your inside salesman.
Any job beats no job, take what you can get.
Joe H
Yes, she is th e lever
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the thoughts, guys.The Wife is already sold. Or at least we THINK she is based on how she acted and what she said in the presentation. But he almost seems to have a sort of distaste for contractors. So I'm not sure she's gonna be able to sell him on it.
Bumpersticker: If the kid is an honor student, he must not really be yours.
Try to think about how you would sell to ME on contracting out any job???
Impossible task??
Thus, gotta scope the customer, sounds like ya already know ya gotta sell via the wifey?
Selling you would be like selling hamburger to a vegeterian.(-:
When I was a boy the Dead Sea was only sick. [George Burns]
Usually you can sell "time".
I am a pretty dedicated DIY guy myself but when I (or my wife) want something done quickly I hire someone.
The biggest problem with converting DIY guys is they are not really sure what they want and they plan on designing as they go.
If this guy is looking for a year (or more) long hobby you are probably out of luck.
It would be a huge favor if you did sell him the drywall.
yes, time is the key. How many man-hours/day is the electrician, plumber, (probably hire out the HVAC) DWers, painters, etc., on the site to complete their tasks and the elapsed time for those tasks. On top of that focus on these guys are doing it day after day and on top of the game not that he isn't proficient but they know the quick ways as well as what the inspector expects to see. Compare all that to what the DIYer has left of the day after he gets home from work and how many hours he plans to spend on it during the weekend. Mean while he's got the family and marriage to maintain...
heyyyy.., wait a sec... don't you have some 1st hand experience in this from the not too distant past?
Have him factor in to his 'savings' for DIY the marriage counselling and divorce costs.
Easy sale, but don't take junkhound with you.
Tell (true) stories, draw word pictures. Talk about your own experience. Ask questions about his projected time to complete and then compare man-hours with what you're proposing with a CREW of pros that do it all the time.
As fret says, speed to complete might just be the key.
I'd compliment his ambition, all the time pushing for what the family wants/needs ( more house now). I'd be looking mom in the eye when I paint the picture of Dad with no time for family 'cuz he's a slave to "the house". Plant the seed, let her do the "convincing".
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Remind him that there are often specialty tools often make the job go much faster. It may not make economic sense to buy some of them for 1 house and renting isn't always an option... and it's certainly not convenient.
Also, contractors can sometimes get material for so much less that their total cost is what the HO would have to pay just for the material.
I don't know if this applies, but I've had conversations with customers who sometimes feel a little guilty for not doing some of the simpler things (like painting) themselves. I tell them "do what you love, I enjoy [painting], if you want to do it because you'll enjoy it, I'll be happy to answer any questions you have".
You are coming at this from a pretty distinct position - that you want to do the work, not them. Fair enough, but a dispassionate observer might ask: what is in their best interests? Should all DIYers be sold on getting builders to do their work? Should this couple? Maybe so - you know more about their situation than I do - but it might be useful to look at it as though you were their advocate rather than trying to sell them something. That's what I would try. You might not end up doing the whole job. Help them decide what they can do. You might get the rest.
"What's gonna convince him that he's better off to hire it done rather than finish it himself?"
Not 'what' but 'WHO.'
"And how do you do that without bruising his ego?"
Sell the wife and let her do the work (on him) - she's the 'WHO'
Jeff ;o)
Maybe express some interest in his plans and how he's going to pull it all together.
As he's explaining it to you it will either become clear to you that he really does know what he's doing, or it (maybe) will become clear to him (or at least his spouse) that he has great intentions that he's not quite sure how to realize.
j
Honestly not going to happen the way you want. Just build the shell and make sure you let the wife know you are always available to finish the job.
I'm afraid that if you try for the whole job up front, they'll go with someone that will just do the shell.
Its a safe bet that their finances are not bottomless. And that living in one house, while building another, equals paying for two houses.
And paying for two houses is something they can do for a few months, or something they can do till the guy gets done in a year or more.
At least from a financial perspective, that's a vote for hiring the work out.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
Tell him the "spec house from hell" story. and that you are now divorced(that part might not work in your favor)
seriously
give him a total estimate of Labor hours to finish. and then put a 1.75 (or even bigger) multiplier on it.
and then explain that being as busy as he already is he will be lucky to spend 25 productive hours a week working on it.
and add a factor for inevitable unplanned trips to the lumber yard or hardware store.
and show him that your crew and subs working in unison will be able to do in weeks what will most definately (rez*) take him years to complete.
and he will have a warrantee!
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion"
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
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according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
I think yall are on the wrong track. The client is asking for a shell. Sell him what he wants. Dont try to sell him anything else.Meet HIS needs, not your own.
Shell only--there's some validity to that. Site work, pour concrete, frame, roof, install windows and doors, possibly install siding. Let the guy buy a cheap nail gun and tank and tile saw and finish his house. You can avoid the major hassle of dealing with all of the interior finishes, appliances, getting the owner to make all the selections, etc. The shell is the hardest part for a DIY who doesn't have a crew and probably only owns an old 6-foot wooden stepladder.
Also....you can't make all the money/profit on the shell without doing any of the finish. Shells are great money makers. I'd much rather do only shells and never finish anything.
I would think the key is to focus on the time thing, and the idea that you guys can get it done quicker, and momma will be happier, sooner...
When you only have three or four hours a day, the setup and cleanup can really eat up productivity.
The answer is the wife..................
Wives hate the amount of time involved in the project and if she gets a realistic estimate of how long his part will take?
His life will be hell until he just hires it out to completion
How about COMPROMISE?
Tell him you understand how he wants to do it himself but explain the time constraints that he will be under and the time it will take him. Then suggest a compromise. If he's going to use fiberglass for insulation maybe you can say you insulate and we'll rock and finish drywall. He can probably blow the attic too. Tell him you will schedule just like any other portion of the job (bt give him extra time and make sure his doesn't start and end mid week.
There are a lot of things like that that DIYs and GC can negotiate in. Maybe pulling coax, phone, cat 5 or low voltage line. Painting. Maybe its staining and finishing trim. You may have to set him up with to tools some of the time and yeah it might be a pain. Make him responsible for job site clean-up everyday. Save you the time/effort and gives him a daily walk around the house.
We did our own insulation, staining/finishing trim, finish electrical (how hard is it really to put an outlet in or hang a light; although you may want 3 ways put in professionally), finish plumbing I put in, hung my own cabinets. But voice of experience, if he is going to end up feeling like the lone ranger many nights and his wife will use the kids as an excuse to not be there working so hes gonna hit a wall and get depressed at some point in time. Thats when you gotta pull up the big boy pants and just push through it.
The guy who is doing the drywall houses says he can get an insulation contractor to install FG insulation cheaper than you can buy it at the home store. I think a few realities like that might make the DIY guy rethink some of the things he wants to do himself.
The reality is, there are a lot of contractors who are working right now and barely covering expenses, just to keep their crews busy ... but I don't have to tell you guys that I guess.
This is a great time to remodel or build for the homeowner and the amount you actually save doing the work yourself is minimal.
A year from now, when she is looking at the wavy drywall joints and open seams in his trim his wife will not be thinking about the $100 he saved.
and where did I say let him buy the insulation? Where did I say he finish the drywall or the trim and how do you know what his skill level is in either of these?
Thats the thing, you guys are trying to figure out a way to cut him out and all I am saying is find a way to cut him in. Just because he is DIY doesn't mean he wants to source the material. He may just want to do the labor. My GC and I worked it all out fine. He ordered all the insulation. We walked the house and went over it together and then we insulated it. Saved his guys a nasty job.
The only thing the GC has to be aware of is his crew copping a 'tude and not fixing something if they see an error. They need to be told the score from the get go and get on board with the guy helping or get on down the highway.
I used his spray gun to finish the trim. Time consuming job to say the least but it saved him a ton of man hours and me a ton of money and it was something that could be done offsite while other work was going on.
My GC's HVAC guys always do his gutters. I said no thanks but I'll tell you what you want to run them and lay them on the ground. They weren't interested but I found two others that were. Easy job for them and an easy job for DIY.
Its all about looking for the WIN-WIN. While all you are guys are suggesting are ways for the GC to just WIN or for the GC to accept the shell only. Maybe you work Saturdays and you tell him to be there at 7:00 every Sat and you'll put him to work and then make sure he sees he getting a price break for that work.
I agree with your approach. I don't like being sold things. When you know someone is taking that approach, then quite logically you have to assume your interests are not paramount to them. You have to be on your guard. It's a bad way to set up any relationship.
Under a lot of talk about making sure the guy doesn't get himself into trouble, most of the advice, as you've said, has been how to to cut him out. He's not getting a fair shake. I know builders need the work, but to me it's just like upselling a job - it's not something you should do.
He will get irritated with you if it becomes obvious you are selling his wife and bypassing him. He will sense that very quickly and you will lose his trust. Don't jump into their husband/wife battle. You need to sell to him too.
Ask lots of questions about what he plans to do. Give him some free ideas. Compliment him. If you don't agree with his approach ask lost of questions and suggest alternatives without shooting him down. Make it sound like you are really interested in what he plans to do and how he plans to approach finishing.
Make him feel like you are part of his team and he will trust you more. After the shell is built he might start giving you pieces of the final project and it could grow...
Billy
Boss Hog.
I think the first answer is the right one..
Do what he wants and do it quickly and efficently and the wife will sell him on the idea.. Oh if you want me to insulate it I can have that done in x days for only $####
You want me to get an electrician for you? He'll run the wires but you can connect them.. It will only cost you $#### and it'll be done to code..
Sheetrock sure is a messy dirty job isn't it? We'll do it for $####
Sell each piece and you'll make more money than if you sell the whole job at once..
Thats how it worked for us when we sold shells. We often ended up doing everything but we never pushed for any of it. Often, reality kicks in when they see how hard and long the pros are working.
As a DIY, here's what I think your best strategy might be:
First, get a good sense of what he's capable of - especially the last couple of projects. Ask him to give you a tour of what he's done. Try not to laugh out loud. DIY's learned just like you did, by making mistakes, except they had no seasoned pros given em #### their first time around. Keep in mind he is likely his worst critic too. He is likely more concerned with what he was trying to accomplish rather than what the final finish ended up. Try to be understanding and empathetic.
THEN
Based on what you see, you might have a good idea of what he's capable of... as well as what messes he might want you to finish.
Break out the different finishing tasks into specific chunks - like $xxxx to add electric, $xxxx to add plumbing, $xxxx to add drywall, etc. Tell him those are rough numbers, and they are subject to change depending on how much you need to work with the stuff he already did.
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
A friend of mine is in real estate, and gets a surprising percentage of her listings from former FSBOs.
"You want to sell the house yourself, I think that's great! Do you need a flood plain declaration affidavit? They are required for this area. Do you have your EPA hazard waiver completed? Ect. blah blah.
By the time she gets done with loading them up with forms and knowledge, a surprising number of FSBOs start to see the value of an agent.
So make sure the guy knows about the permit processes for land, gas, electrical and construction. And then there is the radon inspection, ... look out for Chinese drywall... Raise as many of these issues as you can, all in the name of being 'helpful'.
I once knew a sales trainer who was real big on the fact that people believe much more what they figure out for themselves than what they are told. The difficulty is now having the patience to keep dropping little bits of 'knowledge' until their mental light bulb goes off with the proverbial 'aha' moment.
The trick is to be just so super helpful.
Good luck.
Just figure out the labor man hours involved and ask him where he's gonna find an extra 2,000+ (or whatever number you come up with) hours in his already busy schedule. And remind him that he'll be a lot slower than a trained crew.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
What Frenchy said. Give them a sort of Chinese menu, and price out each phase with your P&O. Establish some sort of time limit so you're not getting recession prices in an up (hopefully) market.Price the shell, include whatever it costs you to estimate the whole project, and hopefully they'll decide down the road that you should complete the work.Personally, I wouldn't get confrontational or pushy. Tell him you'll sell him what he wants, but give him the opportunity to buy what you want to sell.
Edited 11/11/2009 5:39 pm ET by Tomrocks21212
I had a builder out to put on a roof. He ended up doing a second floor addition. His big push, that didn't bother me, was that if there was more work I thought I wanted done, it would be more cost effective if they did it while they were there, rather than if I called them out for the job later.
I added siding the rest of the house, cutting out some interior doors, outside clean up, putting in some new windows and caulking/painting the exterior (along with other things I don't remember).
The only thing that made it difficult was their time frame compared to mine. In the end, they were really too fast, compared to what my planning allowed. It all started with the contractor coming out to put on a roof, and my mentioning wanting a second floor addition. We had to make choices quickly in some cases. It mostly went ok, but that rush to know what doors and windows, or whatever the question of the day was, made us ready for it to be finished, and not want to keep them doing more work.
We did put a list together, and had them out two more times for more work as we figured out what we wanted. We'd bundle it together, so that it was worth their while to come do a few projects each time.
Jennifer
"Older house, needs work. Is to small for them and their kids..."
This is one of the keys, I think. I might say "I'll be glad to build the shell for you as well as any other parts of the job that you'd prefer not to do, but you may want to consider the following factors as you decide just how much of the work you want to do yourself:
1. Will your wife and kids remember more fondly the time you spend building a new house or the time doing fun things with them?
2. Time taken away from your kids now can never ever be made up for.
3. Even a competent DIYer like you will not complete the various steps of construction as fast as a pro who does it every day.
4. How much do you earn at your job? If it takes you half-again as long to do the various tasks as an everyday tradesman, what's the value of your weekend and after hours time?
5. Pros know the Code and what the local inspectors look for, so inspections will go more smoothly.
6. Inspectors tend to be a bit biased and less accommodating with owner-builders than with contractors.
Do be careful not to push too hard. I recently had my basement remodel quoted to a guy. I made it clear to him that I was willing and felt able to learn how to do it all myself but was slightly concerned with the time of it all so that we could go on some kind of a combined effort. At the end of it he had it so that he'd be basically doing most of it with me just doing the flooring and trim work, which I consider pretty easy (and quick) weekend jobs. I wanted a little more skin in the game labor-wise. He said how he'd be more efficient with all the other tasks, had the right tools, etc. and this is all correct but I did not want to farm out all this stuff to him (read: $). In the end I've decided I'll probably just end up doing it all, so I have begun down that path.
In your case I'd go for the shell and tell the home owner that in the interests of the shell not hanging around for God knows how long you should make it at least protected from the environment; walls and roof. He can then take his sweet time on absolutely everything else and you're there for him IF he needs it.
He knows already somebody else can do drywall faster/easier, or electric, or literally everything else. But he's not interested in that. Se
As an avid DIY'er I think I might have an approach. Like everyone else, I agree that the wife is your lever in the situation. In the past, I have hired out work that I thought I was incapable of (rebuilding an existing basement exterior wall), roof tear off and replacement, etc. My wife and I are both architects, so we like to do the interior stuff by ourselves since we can make decisions along the way. Trouble is everything takes forever.
When I hire out, I really appreciate someone that is open with me and listens to what I want and respects my possition. So, here is my suggestion. Price it out to do the shell, make the point that you being the supplier of materials (drywall, etc.) is really beneficial to him (you can mark up for delivery, etc.). THEN, make the offer to be called back in (on an inflated hourly rate) when he gets into a pinch. That way, you can still get the work, perhaps make more money since you will charge time and materials. If you end up doing a lot of the work or he just throws in the towel and hires you to finish, you can come out looking like a hero and maybe, MAYBE, get the final price for all the work to come in less than it would have cost for your inflated hourly rate. Then, they think they got a deal and will tell all their friends....
Or you could build the shell, walk away and change your phone number.