Replies

1. 
   Piffin | Dec 08, 2004 03:12am | #1

   Me?

   I call the plumber.

    

    

   Welcome to the
   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   dryhter | Dec 08, 2004 04:18am | #3

   I've read many of your posts.This may be the shortest one I've read.

   I need to repair the plaster behind the radiator. In the summer I would usually just undo it. The system is working @ ABOUT 3-4 Lbs. Can I just plug it ? One side two sides or just let it go? 

1. 
   Piffin | Dec 09, 2004 06:56am | #5

   Honestly, I was being a smart azz on that one. I do not get alomng with plumbing. I am a gauranteed leak, looking for a place to settle.Thus - my solution to most plumbing problems is - call the plumber.but that's just me. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   IMERC | Dec 09, 2004 07:52am | #6

   I got a sure fire solution to fixing the stop / cam on the HW side...

   epoxy a thin layer (build up) to the flat on the cam to reposistion closed...

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

   WOW!!!   What a Ride!

2. 
   MojoMan | Dec 08, 2004 03:17am | #2

   I have one-pipe steam in the house. I just shut the valve, put a big wrench on the coupling, and am careful when I slide it. I'm not sure about two-pipe systems. Maybe you can just cap off the return pipe as long as all the other radiators have their own.

   Obviously, this is done when the system is cool.

   Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

3. 
   SamT | Dec 08, 2004 07:44am | #4

   Doublejack, big cold chisel, and a really dumb helper.

   Oh. Temporarily. Uh, . . . . make sure the helper chews bubble gum?

   Samt

4. 
   csnow | Dec 13, 2004 08:15pm | #7

   Put steel caps on the pipe ends.

5. 
   DanH | Dec 13, 2004 09:46pm | #8

   Big wrench. Undo the unions.

6. 
   tradesman | Dec 14, 2004 01:23am | #9

   From working in/on larger historic homes I overheard several discussions about the steam heating systems. Here are some of the opinions I heard:

   1. Not every plumber deals with steam systems.

   2. Once you open the system you have to make sure to get the bubbles out.

   3. Once open, the system might be a nightmare to get pressurized correctly.

   4.You might be on call for the rest of your life to get the funny noises out of the system. 

   When I heard this stuff I was glad to be a painter.

1. 
   MojoMan | Dec 14, 2004 01:34am | #10

   Just about all of those opinions sound like nonsense. I think residential steam systems are so rare these days that people just don't know anything about them. In practice, they are actually quite simple to use. It's just that so few people have them, old wives tales get started.

   Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

1. 
   tradesman | Dec 14, 2004 03:40am | #12

   Well, like I said I'm glad to be a painter. I remember one specific case in an historic home of 6000 sqf where the heating room looked like a U-Boot techical outfit. There were two plumbers discussing the possibilities of fixing the thing. It seemed to me that there were many options of messing up the job and whoever had worked on it before did not know what he was doing. The system was a pressurized steam heating system with a huge boiler. The two guys seemed to understand everything but still there was good chance of failure. I don't think they acted like old wives in approaching the repair. I also know of two more systems like this, just a tad smaller but all of them are built between 1870 and 1915. You can find one of 'em under Hover Home in Longmont Colorado.

1. 
   MojoMan | Dec 14, 2004 03:15pm | #15

   We must be talking about different kinds of systems. Mine dates to 1929. It's a single-pipe system and the only pressure is a few psi as the steam rises. The boiler itself has been replaced a few times in 75 years. The curent one - about 10 years old - has all kinds of automatic controls including an automatic fill, so I don't have to do thay any more.

   Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

1. 
   RickD | Dec 14, 2004 08:53pm | #17

   same here- my system was originally fired by a coal burner (one of those snow-man thing covered in asbestos), which was then converted to oil, then replaced entirely by a gas Weil-Mclean.  Pefectly good system, and I never worry about pipes freezing (if it's not on, pipes are empty)

7. 
   retiree | Dec 14, 2004 01:47am | #11

   It's a steam system if it only has one pipe.  If there are inlet and outlet pipes then it is a hot water system.  If steam, close the valve, use a big pipe wrench to open the union.  Stuff a rag into the radiator opening before moving as there will be some funky, slimy water remaining in the radiator which will stain any rugs.  Repair your wall and replace the radiator.  The valve on the side of the radiator(steam only) will allow any trapped air to escape when the steam rises again.

   It's probably the best heating system around, but people just didn't like the radiators in their rooms.  It holds the heat for a long time after turning off.`

1. 
   rich1 | Dec 14, 2004 08:11am | #13

   A two pipe steam system will have an inlet and an outlet.

1. 
   retiree | Dec 14, 2004 06:38pm | #16

   I believe you're right.  All I've seen were one pipe systems.  What I find interesting about this is the fact that the person asking the original question about removing a radiator hasn't read any of the answers that have been coming in.  He must have gotten his answer elsewhere and removed it already.  At least I hope that's the case.

2. 
   djh | Dec 15, 2004 12:46am | #18

   rich 1,

   Just curious, how does the steam get trapped in the radiator ? Doesn't it just flow out the outlet pipe? I had a steam system in my last house, built in the teens, and it had 1 pipe with the radiator set on a slant so the condensate would flow back out the way the steam came in.

1. 
   DanH | Dec 15, 2004 01:21am | #19

   Doesn't have to get "trapped". The radiator will condense as much steam as it has capacity for, and the rest will pass through.

1. 
   djh | Dec 15, 2004 06:27am | #21

   DanH

   True, but if there's a leak in the pipe (ie. the out flow pipe) the radiator will never fill with steam. The steam will continually pass through the radiator, no? The system will essentially never reach the pressure level until the entire system (every pipe and radiator) is filled with steam all the way back to the boiler to signal the pressure shut off? Am I on th eright track?

   D

2. 
   rich1 | Dec 15, 2004 07:41am | #22

   Steam travels at about 27 feet per second. If the air vents are working properly, it doesn't take long to fill the system with steam.  The size of the rads and the heat loss of the room determine how fast the steam will condense.  The lower the pressure, the more effective the system is.

2. 
   rich1 | Dec 15, 2004 03:21am | #20

   There may also be a steam trap, or the valve on the return side may have an orifice in it.

2. 
   tradesman | Dec 14, 2004 09:11am | #14

   Here is a reference to the oldhouse web. As I told DPR, I'm just a painter, but as a kid(growing up in Europe) it was part of my duties to fill up the water level of our steam boiler system whenever it got too low. The illustrated link shows it pretty good.

   http://www.oldhouseweb.net/stories/Detailed/10464.shtml

8. 
   RetiredCPA3 | Dec 15, 2004 08:22am | #23

   Oh my God!  Would all of you schmucks PLEASE log on to http://www.heatinghelp.com (hope I remembered that right), and there you will find "wetheads" galore talking about steam systems of all types, and hot water systems of all types.  Run by Dan Holohan who lives on Long Island -- Beth Page, I think.

   Myself, I bought a 100-year-old 4-flat in 1992 in Chicago with a 1-pipe system.  One replyer is correct, in that if radiators have 2 pipes, COULD be a hot water system, with the radiator clear full of water.  However, there are many 2-pipe steam systems around, and any of Holohan's steam heat books can go into detail about them.  He has others on hot water systems.

   If it is indeed a 2-pipe steam system, shut off the boiler, and let it cool.  Steam at 0 PSI pressure at sea level will be 212 degrees F. -- hotter if much more pressure.  Might be some condensation in the radiator, so be ready to deal with a quart of water, if it hasn't drained out into the pipes.  Use big wrenches, and usually, there is a captured nut on the radiator end, similar to a threaded steel pipe's union or coupling (can't remember my plumbing terms). 

   Should be a little play in the pipes, so you can probably jockey the radiator from between them.  I use a hand truck, as you could be dealing with 100 or more pounds of top-heavy cast iron.  Have muscular help; don't try it alone.  Might want to strap it to the truck, too.

   If it is a hot water system, you MUST drain the system down below that radiator before you disconnect!  If you do a first floor radiator in a multi-story system, disconnecting this one means ALL the water above is coming out of the pipes where you disconnect, and that could be a lot of water.

   How do you tell the difference between steam and hot water?  There should be an air valve on the pipes going to the boiler if steam, so the air can get out of the pipes, and let the steam flow around quicker.  It will be sticking out of the top of a pipe near the boiler.  There should also be a sight glass partially full of water.

   If a hot water system, it will have an expansion tank somewhere, and each radiator will have a small petcock, probably requiring a special small key, to bleed the air out of the radiator so the water can get in.

   In Chicago, at least, no trick at all to find competent steam/hot water heating guys.  Many systems still in use.  My pipes and most radiators are 100 years old, and working fine, and just installed a new Peerless steam boiler.  My 1-pipe system runs at 1 # PSI, and steam heats up the 150' long loop in the basement in less than 5 minutes from a cold start, and all radiators are getting hot in 10 minutes.  Less pressure means faster heat.  (see Holohan) 

   I have purchased large old adjustable wrenches with handles 12-24" long at antique stores which I use to disconnect radiators.  Work fine, and don't chew up the expensive bronze valves and fittings. 

   Good luck!  Goose

1. 
   Pierre1 | Dec 15, 2004 10:36am | #24

   Another useful intro to old-style hot water and steam radiator systems is the book "Renovating Old Houses" by George Nash, Taunton Press. Great diagrams of 1-pipe and 2-pipe steam systems, and 1-pipe and 2-pipe forced-flow hot water systems.

2. 
   BungalowJeff | Dec 16, 2004 08:31pm | #25

   Thank you!  Sending steam questions to http://www.heatinghelp.com is the best answer of all.

   If you live in a house with a steam system you MUST own a copy of We've Got Steam Heat! and the Steam Heat Q&A books available at the site. About $20 each and worth many times that for a smooth operating steam system.

   Nothing beats a pair of underwear on the radiator for those cold mornings!...that's not a mistake, it's rustic

1. 
   RetiredCPA3 | Dec 17, 2004 07:32am | #26

   Bungalow Jeff:  You are most welcome.  I've found Holohan immensely informative, and always accurate.  Spent 2 days at his seminars, and worth every penny.  Have a few of his books, too.  He personally responds to e-mail at his website.  His books helped me puzzle out problems both in my relatively simple 4-flat 1-pipe system, as well as a 4-zone system with several steam traps, 2 condensation pumps, etc., etc. at my Chicago church, which was a 2-pipe system.

   Unfortunately, it's physically impossible to get the efficiencies with steam that one can with hot water.  Weil-Mclean makes a 92%+ efficient hot water boiler, but I've never seen better than 80% for anybody's steam boiler.  Goose