Replies

1. 
   jackplane | Sep 08, 2004 09:25pm | #1

   Generally, OSHA considers asbestos safe as long as it is not disturbed. So, use a good respirator with  dual cartridges and seal up the attic. I would spray water mist on the affected downstairs areas, then vacuum. Hopefully you've got one with a low micron filtration to pick up fine particles.

1. 
   handhewn | Sep 09, 2004 12:59am | #2

   Just to upset everyone a little bit... Old plaster can have asbestos in it. Then again, a bus could run you over in the morning too.

   Curly.Hand Hewn Restorations Inc.

   Restoring the past for the future.

2. 
   WayneL5 | Sep 09, 2004 01:33am | #3

   For $25 or so you can have a local lab test for asbestos.  Then you'd know.  Only vermiculite from a certain mine had a bit of asbestos in it.

3. 
   teasea | Sep 09, 2004 02:54am | #4

   sue every one! include every one that posts a responds to this post that is not commensurate to your wishes

1. 
   handhewn | Sep 09, 2004 03:07am | #5

   Pick me for suit! I need a few targets before I head to state championship shooting match next weekend.

   Curly

   smiling, smiling,loading,smilingHand Hewn Restorations Inc.

   Restoring the past for the future.

4. 
   rjw | Sep 09, 2004 06:08am | #6

   Per the EPA:

   http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/insulation.html

   What should I do if I have vermiculite attic insulation?

   DO NOT DISTURB IT. Any disturbance has the potential to release asbestos fibers into the air. Limiting the number of trips you make to your attic and shortening the length of those trips can help limit your potential exposure. EPA and ATSDR strongly recommend that:

   • Vermiculite insulation be left undisturbed in your attic. Due to the uncertainties with existing testing techniques, it is best to assume that the material may contain asbestos.

   • You should not store boxes or other items in your attic if retrieving the material will disturb the insulation.

   • Children should not be allowed to play in an attic with open areas of vermiculite insulation.

   • If you plan to remodel or conduct renovations that would disturb the vermiculite, hire professionals trained and certified to handle asbestos to safely remove the material.

   • You should never attempt to remove the insulation yourself. Hire professionals trained and certified to safely remove the material.

   There has been the usual chorus of voices: one side says the EPA is covering up a disaster of gigantic proportions; the other side says "no big deal."

   It has been my experience with these health hazard issues that they arrive with a big splash and fade away mostly, with some people always remembering the scare part of the situation.

   I think it can be unequivocally said that vermiculite makes a really lousy salad dressing, even with balsamic vinegar and extra extra virgin olive oil!

   ---

   ---

   Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace

1. 
   maverick | Sep 09, 2004 03:10pm | #9

   I caught a speech on C-span one day where the speaker asserted asbestos removal is a manufactured industry. He claimed the dangers of asbestos had no merit. Many charts and graphs later it seemed one could draw any conclusion they would like. Kinda like politics

   I knew a guy who was a union pipe fitter. He told me about the days when he mixed up asbestos in a wheelbarrow with his bare hands. Pour a bag in then add some water to make a paste then coat the pipes for its insulation value.

   He died from lung cancer 2 years ago.

   My brother was certified for asbestos removal around the Seattle area. He told me if you wanted to remove a small amount, encapsulate it with hairspray first. Lots of hairspray. Then bag it up.

1. 
   glatt | Sep 09, 2004 06:57pm | #10

   It's worth noting that there are about 35 million houses with this kind of insulation.  It's extremely common.   The average household has like 2-3 people in it.  So there are about 80 million people living with this stuff in their house.  Think of it as an experiment.  You don't hear about 80 million people getting lung cancer and dying of it.  It's obviously not causing a widespread health problem for home owners.

   Asbestos was a real problem for pipefitters who worked with it on a regular basis.  Ship builders, asbestos plant workers, asbestos miners, etc.  all had serious problems with asbestos. But they would often be breathing in clouds of asbestos fibers without the protection of a mask. Combine any of that exposure with smoking, and death was common.

   But I'm not convinced that there is as serious a problem for the homeowner, or even for the remodeler if they are careful.

   Sure, it should be noted.  The risks should be minimized.  The law, of course, must be followed.

   For me, I still go up in my attic if I need to, but not very often.  I wear a respirator.  I don't disturb the insulation.  If any vermiculite happens to come back into the house with me, I wipe it up with a damp sponge.  And I don't worry about it.  I haven't had it tested.  It may even be asbestos free.

   I'm not breathing in clouds of asbestos dust.  And I don't smoke.  I should be fine.  I'll be dead in 30-40 years of old age anyway.

5. 
   Mitremike | Sep 09, 2004 10:19am | #7

   I to am in Mn. and I also worked on a house of that era and the other post is correct that only certain plants had abestos introduced into the vermiculite. Proceed with caution- you are in someone elses house and diligence now will probely pay off in the end. May the Force be with you. LOL Mike

1. 
   rjw | Sep 09, 2004 02:19pm | #8

   >>the other post is correct that only certain plants had asbestos introduced into the vermiculite.

   FWIW, the EPA is a bit hazy on the subject, but makes it sound like most vermiculite mined before 1990 has asbestos:

   "Is vermiculite insulation a problem?

   "Prior to its close in 1990, much of the world’s supply of vermiculite came from a mine near Libby, Montana. This mine had a natural deposit of asbestos which resulted in the vermiculite being contaminated with asbestos. Attic insulation produced using vermiculite ore, particularly ore that originated from the Libby mine, may contain asbestos fibers. Today, vermiculite is mined at three U.S. facilities and in other countries which have low levels of contamination in the finished material. [Ed: question- what does "much" mean?]

   If this is a paid job, talk to a litigation attorney ASAP and remember that sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you.

   Be aware that this issue has been around for several years. Up until recently it has been a question under investigation, although the EPA's "do not disturb" recommendation has been out there for at least several (3 - 4?) years.

   Also also be aware that there are different types of asbestos with different danger levels; the EPA and other sites discussing vermiculite and asbestos have steered clear of that aspect of the issue.

   Finally, all contractors (esp remodeling contractors) should be aware that there are certain worker safety rules which might apply to you: http://www.afscme.org/health/faq-asb2.htm

   I have not researched this fully, [some of the asbestos remediation rules don't apply to residential jobs] but it looks like the worker safety rules apply at all contractors, regardless of size:

   Sec. 1910.12 Construction work.

   (a) Standards. The standards prescribed in part 1926 of this chapter are adopted as occupational safety and health standards under section 6 of the Act and shall apply, according to the provisions thereof, to every employment and place of employment of every employee engaged in construction work. Each employer shall protect the employment and places of employment of each of his employees engaged in construction work by complying with the appropriate standards prescribed in this paragraph.

   (b) Definition. For purposes of this section, Construction work means work for construction, alteration, and/or repair, including

   painting and decorating. See discussion of these terms in Sec. 1926.13 of this title.

   Finally finally; there may be state laws involved, as well.

   Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace

   Edited 9/9/2004 7:20 am ET by Bob Walker

1. 
   Mitremike | Sep 09, 2004 09:38pm | #11

   Bob, I concur with your post about asbestos being intod into vermiculite and I have no idea what " much" means. In my limited exposer when I have had the houses tested with vermiculite they have come up clean so I wore a mask , left it alone if I could and brought the homeowners into the loop.

   Much like uppers or lowers first ---could it be said that it is a debate that will never be resolved. Education and due diligience may be the only way to go for now .

   Could it be that we are using products today that in 40 years we will really understand and the whole process will start over?

   Mike

2. 
   HandySteve | Sep 12, 2004 04:51am | #13

   MN here too.   Do what I do.  dont touch a thing till you have it tested.  BRAUN intertec ...  look em up in the yellow pages.  They are in MPLS>

   I wont start a job until that pesky stuff has been tested.  Yep.. charge it too the customer.  Let them know before you start the job that they'll be paying for a test.  Its for everyones safety.

1. 
   Mitremike | Sep 12, 2004 07:20am | #14

   hello faustie The times I have had it tested and it has come back clean I have always taken a leave it alone approch , not because i think that the test isn't accuare but because of the dust and debrie can be really hard on all of us. More times than not I work in remod. and the HO live next to my work area, It may be healther for all but I think it shows that you care about what happens to them after you leave for the day. Hey by the way I am just south of Mpls in a little town with a big Mall---wink, wink--Catch you soon. Mike

1. 
   HandySteve | Sep 12, 2004 07:48am | #15

   what do you figure you are getting a square foot for remodeling.  after all the numbers a crunched..im somewhere around 35... to 40

6. 
   teasea | Sep 10, 2004 04:36am | #12

   O sorry!