DW wants me to build and hang some shelves in the kitchen, this will be in a corner above the counter tops. Three shelves high. She does not want ends on the shelves. The shelves are to be about 7″-8″ deep, 3/4″ thick. I will probably put trim on the edges for the appearance of thicker shelves. My dilemma is how to hang them. There will be glass wear on them. If it were her choice there would be no brackets, just the boards sticking out from the wall. I thought about those key ways on the back of the boards but know this won’t be strong enough. I am open to ideas so please feel free to indulge my imagination short of getting rid of DW……. 🙂
edited to add. Shelf will be “L” shaped, 15″ on one side, 30″ on the other
Semper Fi
“To be young and a conservative, you have no heart”
“To be old and a liberal, you have no mind”
Winston Churchill
“Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don’t have that problem.”
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
Edited 2/4/2007 2:48 pm ET by Jarhead
Replies
Can the shelves be thicker than 3/4"? If they can be built thick enough I've used french cleats.
I've also seen steel rods used.
No walls on either end?
Yeah no walls on either end. There are two windows on either end. I'm open on thickness......Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
torsion box fasten to wall?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
Dowels into the studs?
I've put up some of these for clients:http://www.potterybarn.com...they use cleats , and are thicker than 3/4"I've made the L-shaped (not the kind that would fit in a corner, but it could) type, with the short leg on either the top or bottom...mostly depends how much weight they have to carry, or how far the cantilever, as to whether to use brackets or not... "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
We did some "unsupported" shelves in the corner of a kitchen remodel, just last October.
With the benefit of a room gutted down to the studs, we screwed straight lengths of steel angle, 3/4 x 3/4 x 1/8, right to the studs, sticking out of the wall where the shelf ends would be.
Here is where you get steel like this: http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=276&step=2
Basically the two projecting pieces of angle are then boxed with the array of plywood and solid wood to make up the whole thing. You can use 1/2" baltic birch for the top and bottom skins, and 3/4 birch for the front and end facings.
The longer shelf homeruns into the corner, and thus is fixed there by the 3/4 x 3/4 wall cleat that is there. The other shelf then fixes into it.
The whole thing is puttied up, sanded, primed, and painted. Looks pretty seamless when done.
I'm sure there is an easier way, but I always overengineer and overthink things.
The pic here shows some of the components, but not all. Drywall is not shown.
View Image
I have seen a large glass shelf in a Foyer done like your drawing, except the 3/4" thick glass was sandwiched into the wall, with the upper wall loaded on the shelf so that it canted into the room. It looked really puzzling but cool, with no visable support.
It had been there successfully for years.
I have done the same with 3/4" wide flat bar angles. Open the drywall. Screw the 10" long leg against stud (or other suitable backing). The 6" (or 8",10"12") section will stick out of the wall. Rabbet a channel the thickness of the steelbar (1/4") into the underside of the shelf. Fasten shelf to bracket and cover underside of shelf with suitable material (I did 1/8" paintable plywood), refinish the wall.
In my case I supported a long countertop extension in a bathroom. In any case you want solid backing to support the expected load. (Dishes or books can be very heavy; unless its just for ornaments or souveniers like beachsand from Hawaii :=)
We did the exact same thing, almost. Need to have a corner to help support, but we screwed long 3/4 inch x 1 inch wood cleats to the studs atop the sheetrock. Then we made up shelves that were about two inches thick with a built in slot at the back wall. Scribed them to the wall and slide into place with a few finish nails on top to hold. Turned out very strong but we needed to use in a corner to get the added support.
If you don't mind a thicker shelf the easiest way is to build the shelves like you were building a very shallow box, or a hollow core door. And being that it is in a corner will be quite strong.
Just get some 1/4" plywood and some material for the frame. Something like a 2x2 or similar size. Cut the veneer in the shape you want and then make the frame and then glue and nail the veneer on except for the part of the frame that mounts to the wall. The part of the frame that mounts to the wall you will lag it into some studs, then apply some glue and and then slide your shelf over this and nail.
This is the basic idea and there are different ways to do this. But this way is kind of permanent, being that to take it off the wall you have to cut the shelf since the lags are hidden in the box. You could build it with some slots in the bottom for access to the lags.
Edited 2/4/2007 5:29 pm by Kgmz
Just get some 1/4" plywood and some material for the frame. Something like a 2x2 or similar size. Cut the veneer in the shape you want and then make the frame and then glue and nail the veneer on except for the part of the frame that mounts to the wall. The part of the frame that mounts to the wall you will lag it into some studs, then apply some glue and and then slide your shelf over this and nail.
Makes sense. That would fairly easy, didn't think of that. Thanks.Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
Many, Many good or great ideas. Got my wheels turning! Just got away from watching the Colts rule football and came here with way too much to digest right now, have to get up at 4am to go to work. I'll get back to ya'll I look all this over! So far the best method is to use the cleat with a hollow shelf, slide it over and glue and nail....... Sounds easy! Damn..... Thanks for the help!!Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
http://images.google.com
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How about opening the wall and attaching to the studs? A lot more work with the drywall but I have a fair amount of experience satisfying the desires of "The One Who Cannot Safely Be Ignored". :)
Here's an idea from wikihow:
http://www.wikihow.com/Build-Simple-Floating-Shelves
Lee Valley Has some hardware for this type of shelf. Metal rods welded to a plate to screw to a stud that insert into a hale in the back of a shelf.
Paul
tried that before - shelf sagged because the screws were not long enough and the drywall acted as a buffer which weakened the tightness to the wall.
I think Gene Davis and KGMZ are on the right track for you, but their designs are considerably thicker than you want.
I did a mantel using KGMZ's method, except I used 1x8 poplar for top and bottom surfaces and glued 1x2 poplar between them on three edges plus a spacer in the center. This gave me a 2 1/4" thick box with 3/4" hollow inside, open on one of its long sides, similar to the one in Gene's drawing. I screwed 1x2 poplar supports edgewise to the grout of the chimney and slid the mantel over them.
In your case, You might use 1/4" plywood, producing a 3/4" thick box with a 1/4" hollow center in areas where mounting brackets will go (or 3/8" plywood with 1/4" sandwich for 1" thick). If you mounted 8" corner braces to the studs (cut out drywall and bury the vertical leg) your shelf could slide right over the braces with nothing showing. A screw run up from the bottom through one of the holes in the braces would secure the shelf (as well as leave you a way to remove it later if need be). For a tight fit to the braces, make your sandwich material the same thickness as the angle braces.
Face the edges for appearance and bask in DW's approbation. (can we use such a word on BT?) :)
BruceT
Edited 2/4/2007 6:35 pm ET by BruceT999
How about drilling all- thread into the studs, extending out about 6". Epoxy it into the studs, then drill the shelf for that all-thread, and slip it on.
You'd only be able to do that for the long side of the L-shaped shelf, but I think that would take the vast majority of the weight, and you could carry the weight on the small side with pocket screws into the studs or into solid blocking.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Here's another approach.
Three shelves in a corner, 7-8" deep, an L 30" one side, 15" the other.
Shelves: They will have to be either triangular with a 33 9/16" outside edge showing;
or 'circular' with a rounded outside edge;
or nearly triangular with 2 or 3 outside edges showing (with the triangle's points cut off so that the shelf-ends intersect the walls at 90). This configuration will yield more useful depth overall, which is my preference.
If your walls or cabinet/wall do not meet at 90 at the inside corner, modify your measurements accordingly.
Shelf supports: Cut two rectangular pieces of 3/4" G1S fir ply (or veneer ply) of suitable height and length, rabbet them 1/4" deep for each of the shelves.
Pre-assemble by glueing/screwing the shelves into their rabbets, then glue/screw the assembly in its intended corner.
If you can't find enough studs, drywall anchors and const. adhesive would probably suffice given the expected loads. If one of the supports is against a cabinet, drive screws into the ply from inside the cabinet - do not use adhesive on the cab - and make sure cab itself was properly fastened into wall.
Trim out all ply edges in place as you see fit.
Paint or finish coats.
That is what I was getting at when I posted the google images link, but no need to alter the shape. Cutting the L out of a single piece will let it self support conterbracing to the backboards.
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I think I understand what you were talking about. I see the single piece cut out to make the "L" shape. Easy enough. The other part I assume...... You are saying to put a 1X along both side of the wall making the "L" shape, then attach the shelf to that? That would be the easiest thing for me to do. I had thought of that previously but was wondering structurally if it would be strong enough. But after reading your post and thinking more about it, the shelf being "L" shaped can't tip. It would support itself. But would I "need" to rabbit the scabbed piece of wood like Pierre said? Seems like it would be stronger but I wonder if just some glue and nails can do the same with out having to rabbit the groove as he said. On the other hand, if I do rabbit the shelf "in" I won't see much of the structure from underneath, less 1X material to see......I like this the more I think about it.....Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
see the pictures of the cornershelves that are a scrolled and stained wood. See the back that stays on the wall? That is the part that is dadoed to hold the shelf. It does not have to be all scrolly fancy. The whole thing is made as a single unit like a cabinet is and hung with just a couple of screws. but you could also for just a little glassware and not much projection do like you interpreted and just nail some supports to the wall and set teh L on them.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Blind dowels are the way to go, there was an article a while back in FHB on this very topic that may be helpfull.
I'll second Paul's advice with a minor change.
Instead of using wood dowels use all thread. Make the shelves out of 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" stock.
I've done this for two mantles and both have held up well. One mantle was installed into a brick facade so we went into the motar joints, the other we were doing the framing and I had the guys install solid 2x4s as blocking 3 deep into the stud bay (we had space in back for the extra depth) so I had ~4" to bite into. If you can hit the studs that should work as well.
In order to make it easier to drill the holes tack a piece of scrap 1x onto back of the shelves and drill through both the scrap and the back of the shelf. It will give you template you can level on the wall and use as a guide for your holes.
I like all thread because it gives more area for the epoxy I use to grab. I partly fill the hole with a 2 part expoy and drive in the all thread, be sure to keep the all thread is sqaure to the back of the shelf in both directions. Then fill the holes in the studs or your blocking with epoxy and set the shelf. Be prepared with a scrap and hammer to persuade it into place.
To hold it until the epoxy kicks on the one I installed in wood I used a few trim head screws into the sides of the mantle, a little color putty and you'll never see them.
The epoxy I use is a 2 part injectable caulk tube type that HD sells, usually by the re-bar in the concrete aisle.
I've done steel rods right into the studs and into the back of the shelf with good results. Just gotta line it up right and on the level.
take a good look at those images for inspiration. alll these steel epoxied rods and torsion boxes are way too complicated for what you need.
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Hafele makes hardware specifically for this.....variation on the dowel-into-stud idea, but once you get the threads into wood, the parts that extend are eccentric.....so you can rotate them to get the shelf level if it's off a little.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
"the parts that extend are eccentric.....so you can rotate them ..... if it's off a little."Boy, you sure know your audience, don'tcha? LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Things have been known to be off a little....not that it's ever happened to me, of course.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Airplanes get their strength through a monocoque design, where the shell functions as the skeleton. If you glue and screw two L-shaped pieces of lauan onto a 3/4" thick poplar frame, it should have enough strength to hold dishes without drooping. I would leave the front open to access the rear for screws. Once it is in place, you can fill in the front, leaving out the glue unless you are not worried about removing the shelves later without destroying them.
Some inspiration:
We built this home several years ago.
Unseen in the pic, to the right is a natural pecan mantle. The mantle is 9' long / 36" wide and 10" thick. We loaded it on a custom angle iron frame within the wall and stacked the wall and white limestone above on the mantle. The wall and limestone rises to 32' above the floor. The mantle cantalievers 24" past the stone into the room with no visable support.
If us hillbilly cowboys can do this, Kitchen shelves for a Marine should be easy.
The HO came to the site and said the mantle looked like it would fall down over time. I got a step ladder and asked three of my guys to climb up on the mantle. They got up on the mantle and jumped up and down. The HO was satisfied.
The mantle continues to be a conversation piece in the 11650 SF home, as it does look as if would fall down. The Great Room pictured is 30' x 64', with 16' walls on the ends and a 6/12 exposed roof taking off from the top of the 16' wall.
NOTE: It took 15 guys to lift the mantle in place.
Hang it from the ceiling...
Plow the shelf stock with a 3/8" groove stopping before the face edge.
Fasten 3/8" square stock to the wall. This material can be wood or square aluminum tube.
Slide your shelf onto the 3/8" square.
You could also do it with a rabbet which will leave more material above your wall choice.