Replies

1. 
   steve | Mar 04, 2004 05:19am | #1

   i always start with the upper corner cabinet then the rest of the uppers

   base cabinets the same start in the corner and work outward

   caulking is not a piece of trim

2. 
   RalphWicklund | Mar 04, 2004 05:19am | #2

   I like to do the uppers first. Less chance of damage to the lowers and more room to work.

   Also, no doors or shelves if they are not fixed shelves.

   Screw together as many as I can lift, including the corner if there is one. With face frames use spacers fastened between the rear adjacent box corners if necessary to keep everything straight and together. Predrill the screw holes and insert the screws. Lift.

   Lift onto a 1x ledger that is screwed to the wall at the proper height to take the strain off the body and start setting the screws.

   Hopefully I've found the proud points on the wall and made the proper adjustments with shims before cranking down all the way on the screws.

   Go to the next batch of uppers and repeat the steps.

   Don't use no Piffin screws.

3. 
   geob21 | Mar 04, 2004 05:33am | #3

   We do bases first, majority of kitchens getting some sort of granite or solid surface lets them template and giving me time for all the designer mouldings bump up,bump in stuff they like too do. Being 6'1" also helps.

   Attaching ledger to set walls on makes it easier on the back.

   Also set everything base on the height of the finished floor if it's not already installed. Appliances not fitting gets ugly.

   And don't use drywall screws.

4. 
   gdcarpenter | Mar 04, 2004 05:33am | #4

   Don't forget to find the high point of the floor and start there.  Much easier to shim up than have to cut down to keep level. 

   Let's not confuse the issue with facts!

5. 
   Piffin | Mar 04, 2004 05:43am | #5

   To start with, you want to place blockinf in the wall before you sheetrock it if possible.

   If not, then you have to be kind of precise locating the studs if you want the wall cabs to stay put.

   And don't uyse sheetrock screws for the wall cabs either. Use structural screws. 'nuff said.

   I put the bank of wall cabs together first, then get whatever help needed to raise them to p[osition. screwing a bumper to the top position to lift to first saves a lot of fidgeting. Just get it level and slam the bank of cabs up to it and start setting screws. If you are needing to hit studs instead of blocking, measure from corner out and get each screw started before you lift.

   oh, yeah, Check whether the wall is anywhere near straight before you begin. If it is as wavy as some I have seen, you might as well hit yourself in the head with a sledgehammer first. The rest of the job will feel good after that.

   So let's go back to before I started here.

   when you frame the wall, crown the studs out.

    

    

   Welcome to the
   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
   Excellence is its own reward!

6. 
   r_ignacki | Mar 04, 2004 06:00am | #6

   My PREFERINCE in sequence in the upper one's first, one at a time, except that lately, jobs fall behind, so "someone" schedules the counter tops to be measured the same day the cabinets arrive, so I have to work like there's no tomorrow to get the base cabs installed before the counter top dude get's there, and then strain my already strained back hanginmg upper cabinets over the base cabinets myself, causing the job to fall even further behind because of down time for an aching back.
1. 
   RW | Mar 04, 2004 08:00am | #7

   you sound sore over this {G}"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb "      lyrics by Roger Waters

7. 
   CapnMac | Mar 04, 2004 08:37am | #8

   Like most who have answered here, I prefer uppers then bases.  I have learned (the hard way) to measure the high point of the floor and the same value for the ceiling (or furrdown).  Then, I check the flatness of the walls at the floor, the countert top, and top & bottom of the uppers.  While I'm at it, I check to see that the prescribed space is available between the uppers and bases, too.  Of course, the only way to do this, is to be inside after the framers have left but beofer the counter top guys get there (a near impossibility <g>).

   Why bother checking the fronts?  One too many kitchens with 45(more or less)° walls.  That 43° corner does not have a tidy 5" difference between a the wall, and the front of a 12" deep upper cabinet; or 10" more on the base cabinet.  The other reason is furrdowns.  A 13" deep furrdown is not very deep with a wall with a 1" bow in it . . . (especially when the plans call for a 14" deep furrdown . . . )

   Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
1. 
   skids | Mar 04, 2004 09:26am | #9

   i would just like to add what i do in addition to many of the steps outlined above is layout plumb and level lines so that i have to use a level as little as possible when positioning/holding cabinets.

   an exact diagram of where the cabinet is going drawn on the wall lets you double check your numbers and fit with no weight in your hands, then you just secure to the lines. if you have plumb in one direction, and level, then you only need to adjust for plumb (or level) in the other direction and your good. sometimes a stop(vert) or ledger(horizontal) helps with this (temp attach with screws)

   its not always possible to eliminate all fidgeting and plumbing, but the less the better. i find my rotating laser an invaluable tool in this layout process, it goes pretty quick by just penciling in the marks of the laser. 

    everything is laid out from vertical and horizontal center lines, not corners, or bottoms, or tops, so there are no surprises from out of square corners or out of level floors. ( you make Clines first then determine highest point of floor, lowest point of ceiling, and closes't point of the corner, by going around and measuring with story pole). is closes't a word?

   i also like to install as big of a unit as i can in one piece, again a more efficient time of plumbing and fidgeting.

   and i usually do bottoms first, using a spacer to set tops on perfectly level bottoms, and secure.

8. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Mar 04, 2004 06:31pm | #10

   I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet but don't use drywall screws. :-)>

   Kevin Halliburton

   "In him the whole building is joined together ..." Ephes. 2:21

1. 
   john | Mar 04, 2004 06:54pm | #11

   I make my own cabinets, and I use Blum wall hanging brackets. Screw the metal plates to the wall first, then lift the cabinet, the brackets just hook onto the plates. 3D adjustable, much easier than what I've been reading here

   http://www.blum.com/group/en/03/04/03/index.jsp;jsessionid=00002PUOJC1CG7p4kZHVgXoeaWe:-1

   John

1. 
   DanH | Mar 06, 2004 09:48pm | #57

   Kinda hard to figure out how those Blum brackets work from the picture. I assume the picture is of the piece that goes inside the cabinet, and that that somehow engages a bracket on the wall?

1. 
   john | Mar 06, 2004 10:09pm | #60

   Yes, the way they work is, the 1/4"ply back is set into dados in the cabinet sides and base so that there is a 3/4" free space behind the cabinet. A rectangular hole is cut in the back so that the hook part of the bracket (not seen in the pic) passes through. The bracket is then screwed to the cabinet side. A generous flange on the bracket hides the hole edges. As I make my own cabinets, it's no problem for me to use these brackets

   The hook adjusts in and out, and up and down. The metal strip is screwed to the wall. The cabinet then lifted up and it hooks onto the strip (easier if you wind the hooks out first). After that, the cabinet can be corrected for height by turning the adjustment screws on the bracket. Also the cabinet can be slid from side to side on the metal strip. If you fix the metal strip to the wall in roughly the right place then the rest is easy.

   I'm going to have to say that, especially after reading what you guys have to do to hang cabinets, the Blum system is far superior

   They are rated at 200kg per pair, BTW

   John

1. 
   RalphWicklund | Mar 07, 2004 03:31am | #62

   "They are rated at 200kg per pair, BTW"

   What does that translate to in terms of dinner plates, cup and glasses and canned goods?

2. 
   john | Mar 07, 2004 11:55am | #63

   Well, 200kg equals 440 lbs. Say the cabinet itself is 50lbs, I reckon 390lbs capacitty oght to just about do it, maybe american plates are heavier than european, we only use fine bone china and porcelain.

   You've got to think that Blum would have checked a few filled cabinets, especially if they sell those brackets in the States, think of the lawsuits!

   John

   Edited 3/7/2004 7:54:19 AM ET by john

9. 
   MalibuJim | Mar 04, 2004 08:42pm | #12

   Hi Tom,

   Here's a quick rundown of how we do it:

   1. Locate and mark all studs
   2. Snap (chalk) or draw (pencil- what I prefer) for uppers- 54" from the floor high point and at 36" for the bases. 
   3. Uppers first!- you can't work efficiently with bases in the way, besides, I guarantee you'll damage them, at least scratch them.
   4. Pre-attach any fill strips to the sides before raising.
   5. One case at a time.  The cases can be very heavy and if not fully supported throughout the lifting a sagging case can start to tear out and destroy the case side.
   6. Measure and pre-drill through the nailers and start the screws while still on the ground.
   7. Raise and set on cabinet jack.
   8. Raise or lower jack to bring bottom of case in line with the pencil line you drew in step 2. 
   9. Have helper push the box against the wall and check for plumb.
   10. Drive screws into studs, but DO NOT drive all the way home- leave them about 1/8" proud.
   11. Bring up the next case and line it up with the one already on the wall.  Clamp the two sides together and tap into alignment with a soft-face mallet.
   12. Screw the two case sides together tight.
   13. Now, screw the second case to the wall, again, leaving the screws 1/8" proud.
   14. When all the upper in a wall run are secured together and loosly hung to the wall, begin the process of driving the screws tight to the wall.  Be VERY careful here.  This is where you can make or break an installation.
   15. On long runs we string a dry line accross the front edges and work together slowly driving home all the wall screws while one person sights down the line.  You must add shims where needed.  Especially on new construction drywall walls.
   16. Bases are treated in a similar fashion.

   I like to use a 8 X 3" nickel-plated washer head square-drive screw for installations.  I get them from McFeely's and I think they're great.  The square drive is almost a must when working on older homes with dry, old-growth, hard studs. 

   You'll notice I mentioned "helper" a few times.  Do not attempt a cabinet installation alone or you will seriously compromise the results.

   The cabinet jack that I reffered to is a home-made one that comprised of a 4', 1" all-thread, 4', 1" pipe, jack nut and base stands- I'll post pictures one day.

   Good luck!

   Tony- Pacific Cabinet Works

1. 
   SEBDESN | Mar 05, 2004 01:05am | #15

   <You'll notice I mentioned "helper" a few times.  Do not attempt a cabinet <installation alone or you will seriously compromise the results.>

   Only time I need a helper is for those "!#$%^&*" 27" deep 36" wide things that go over the reefer....I suppose thats my fault however, cause I designed them there....

   Bud

1. 
   steve | Mar 05, 2004 01:28am | #16

   i've hung kitchen cabinets for 15 yrs solo, and never met a cabinet i couldnt lift up and screw to the wall

   takes a few tricks and the right amount of grunt, but never been foiled yet

   biggest most awkward cabinet? how about a 24 deep, 21 high, 42 wide fridge cabinet, raised to 90 inches off the floor

   did it solo with some major prep, and im 165 pounds slight build and in reasonable shapecaulking is not a piece of trim

1. 
   calvin | Mar 05, 2004 02:03am | #17

   Exactly.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

   Quittin' Time

2. 
   JeffBuck | Mar 05, 2004 02:30am | #18

   I do 99% of my installs w/o a helper too ...

   but when I sub most of those jobs ... I make it know the cabs are to placed on the same floor as the install .. and as close to the install as possible ...

   For those times it my own job ... or they can't get them there ...

   I either snag a buddy ... or do the labor ready thing ...

   Otherwise ... it's me and my flat bed dolly ....

   I try to get as many uppers together as possbile w/o killing myself ...

   but then again ... I have the strength of ten men.

   ten .. very small .. sickly men ... but ten men all the same!

   JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

        Artistry in Carpentry                

1. 
   steve | Mar 05, 2004 02:59am | #19

   hey the first day on a cabinet job is the easiest, just screw heavy bulky boxes to out of plumb, out of level, out of square walls, EASY!!!

   secomd day is using yards of trim from toekick to 6 inch crown to cover all the problems

   third day is easy. usually just the countertop and plumbing hook up, jobs done!!

   and then some people still say, "oh i can do that" yeah right!!caulking is not a piece of trim

2. 
   schris1313 | Mar 05, 2004 03:34am | #20

   Know your cabinets and top. Some boxes are now 35" instead of 34 1/2" and granite is usually 1 1/4" instead of 1 1/2"  like mica or solid surface, so you could be anywhere from 35 3/4" to 36 1/2" finished. I mark the box height off the high point of the floor and then 54" for the uppers.

   SteveC

3. 
   JeffBuck | Mar 05, 2004 06:32am | #25

   speaking of bracing big cabs ...

   I was working along side another trim/cab guy at my last place of employ ...

   big kitchen install ... they had us work togther ...

   we decided to start at opposite ends ...

   I'm watching him run the 2x ledgers ... same as I do ...

   then I watch him wrassle with a big corner cab ... upper, of course.

   So after he's done fighting .. to hold this thing up on a 2x screw to one wall .. and a 2x screwed to the other ...

   I say .. Hey Dan .. watch this! I go and cut a 2x with a 45 at each end ... set it and screw it across the 2 already mounted to the wall ... making for a triangle ... with a front leg ...

   Then I casually set the big "triangle" shaped cab up on it all and step back.

   I could actually see the light bulb go off over his head!

   Dan was a funny guy ... really smart .. then times like that he'd outsmart himself. Said it never occured to him to run that extra piece of ledger.

   Now here's another funny part .. for the life of me ... every time I relive that moment ... I can't figure out why we weren't actually halping each other and holding up the cabs as the other guy screwed?

   Probably 2 solo hangers working together... old habits ...

   JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

        Artistry in Carpentry                

4. 
   steve | Mar 05, 2004 06:41am | #27

   hey thats a great idea!!!

   you know horizontal ledgers are okay, but what about the hole left in the wall when they are removed?

   simple answer... two verticle ones, screwed to the wall below the top of the base cabinets!!caulking is not a piece of trim

5. 
   JeffBuck | Mar 05, 2004 06:43am | #28

   ahh .. that's whay the painter's for!

   I never thot of the vert's before either ... see ...

   learning something each day .......

   could even still work with the cross brace .....

   JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

        Artistry in Carpentry                

6. 
   steve | Mar 05, 2004 06:53am | #29

   most people especiall spec builders appreciate as little damage as posible especially if no backsplash material is to be installed

   and with two verticle ledgers i can easily hold the biggest angled wall cabinet to the wall with one hand, just have to remember to have the screw gun within grabbing distance with a screw on the tip

   big advantage of robertson or square drive screws, put one on the driver tip and it stays there!!!caulking is not a piece of trim

7. 
   gbwood | Mar 05, 2004 07:05am | #30

   whenever I use ledgers for the uppers I grab a few scrap rips of ply or whatever 20" or so wide so I can screw below countertop hight but still have a continous horizontal ledger. Then I got my GilLift...

   greg

8. 
   DougU | Mar 06, 2004 05:35am | #50

   Steve

   I like that idea with the vertical boards screwed to the wall.

   I always take a couple of 2X2's and cut them a little short of 54", set them on a shim, fat side to the wall, then set my cabinet on top, just kick my 2X2 until the cab is at the line. But I like your idea better so I'm stealing it! Thanks because sometimes the 2X2 gets knocked down and I have to repeat everything, and I don't like that!

   Doug

9. 
   steve | Mar 06, 2004 09:20pm | #56

   hey the 2x2 would work too, maybe screw them somewhat loosely to the bottom plate so you can move them a little to adjust the level but not have them fall over

   best thing about this forum, got 10 guys who all do the same thing, different methods

   trickiest thing for me solo, is hoisting a huge over the fridge cabinet up and fastening it. no problem when there is a 25 deep panel on one or both sides but when no panels?, gets tricky and heavy

   and those plumbers!!!!!!! a one foot stubout for the water lines from the wall, one foot stubout for the drain in the floor? and i hate doing huge square holes just to get the cabinet in place, and why cant the stubouts at least be straight and parallel?

   ideal stub outs for me are 4 inches for the water supplies, square to the wall, and the drain?, leave it unglued so i can remove itcaulking is not a piece of trim

10. 
    SEBDESN | Mar 05, 2004 06:46pm | #33

    Since I put bottom cabs last I use a small step ladder just a touch lower than the bottom of the tops, with a spacer on top of it it will be exactly as high as bottom of tops and they will sit there,backside on ledger and front on ladder. Kind of a poor mans cabinet lift..

    Bud

11. 
    alecs | Mar 06, 2004 05:06pm | #53

    The easiest upper cabinet install method has got to be IKEA's. 

    You get a metal strip that's like a T-slot channel, this goes on the wall first.  Comes in 8' sections, cut easily with a hacksaw.  You can level it and screw it into the studs without worrying about blocking or holding up a lot of cabinets.  Then each cabinet gets two T-bolts that slide into the channel.  You hang the cabinets one at a time, each has matching brackets that accept the T-bolts.  Once the cabinets are hanging on the T-bolts, you use a 3-D adjustable plate and nut to cinch down the cabinets.  Before tightening the nuts all the way, you can adjust each cabinet and screw them together. 

    No heavy lifting, no trying to level the entire row of cabinets while balancing them on your shoulder, very forgiving install method. 

    The base cabinets go in with equal ease.  They have individually adjustable feet to account for unlevel floors, bolt to the wall with similar bracketry, and you're in business. 

    my 2cents.

12. 
    MisterT | Mar 06, 2004 07:49pm | #54

    Kinda makes our way seem like the stone-age!!

    I am one person waitng for US cabinetmakers to get into the 21st century.Mr T

    Do not try this at home!

    I am an Experienced Professional!

    Remodeling Lead Carpenter w/ 20 years exp.

    + A Construction Engineering Degree

    Located in Elmira, NY

    Incessantly Whining Liberal

    Sarcastic Smartass

    Cunning Linguist

    Family Man

    Dog Lover (NOT THAT WAY YOU PREVERT!!!)

13. 
    JeffBuck | Mar 06, 2004 08:51pm | #55

    the down side is you end up with Ikea cabinets hanging on your wall.

    JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

         Artistry in Carpentry                

14. 
    Sancho | Mar 06, 2004 09:50pm | #58

    Ya considering a french clete does the same thing. 

    Darkworksite4:

    Gancho agarrador izquierdo americano pasado que la bandera antes de usted sale

15. 
    alecs | Mar 08, 2004 05:25pm | #64

    Say what you will about the IKEA cabinets themselves, I like them myself.  Sure they're not the same thing as fine custom made all-hardwood cabinets, but for the money they are better than anything else I've seen.  They handily outlasted some Wood-Mode cabinets at my parents house.  (The Wood-Mode were supposedly top of the line at the time)  Both IKEA and Wood-Mode installed in the same kitchen in 1987, the IKEAs are still going strong, the Wood-Mode looked like crap after about 6 years or so.  Paint flaking off and discolored, hinges coming loose, knobs cracking, etc.

    But even if you don't like the cabinets, you have to admit, the mounting system is pretty cool.  The hinges (I think similar to Blum hinges mentioned elsewhere in this thread) are also pretty neat.  Those Clever Swedes!

16. 
    JeffBuck | Mar 09, 2004 02:04am | #65

    I'm half Swede ... so me and my Mom will take the clever part ...

    but Ikea knock-downs stink big time!

    and I'm not even comparing them to shop made full customs ...

    They're junk.

    I don't sell them ... I'll install them if forced to ...

    but I ain't gonna like it.

    JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

         Artistry in Carpentry                

17. 
    DougU | Mar 09, 2004 04:01am | #67

    Jeff

    I was in a house today to measure up to build some custom doors and the builders wife was putting together some IKEA's. I had never seen them before, they are without a doubt the cheapest pieces of sh!t I have seen in some time, nothing but partical board with some picture of wood glued on to them.

    Your right a few post back, hang them however you want, their still IKEA's when your done.

    Doug

18. 
    Woodbutcher | Mar 09, 2004 04:58am | #68

    Hey Doug!   I'm gonna be in your Neighborhood  next week.  Time again for SXSW!!!  Maybe I'll be able to give you a call or something while I'm down there.

     I've just finished reading this entire thread and I've learned quite a bit. Not so much about cabinet installation as about people.  I think Steve said it best, something like  "The best thing about this forum is that you've got ten guys doing the same thing, and all of them doing it differently".  There are so many different ways to do so much of this construction stuff and many of them are just as good as many others, neither right or wrong,  just different.  I especially like the  "uppers first" vs the "bases first"  camps.  Kinda reminds me of the Ford vs Chevy guys from back in my gearhead days,  or  "tastes great!   less filling!"  .  I personally like to do the Bases first for two reasons.  One, because I too often have the countertop guy breathing down my neck.  And two, because I got burned once when I had to do enough extra shimming on the base cabinets that there wasn't exactly 18" between them at finish and there was a tile pattern going above the backsplash that I didn't know about and now would not fit.  Boy did I look bad on that one!   Now I do the bases, then I measure off them to get the uppers exactly the correct height all perfect and level etc. . I also use little home made stands to set the uppers on so as to save my back.    

     One little editorial note.  I was amused by the "no drywall screws!" comments.  It occurs to me that if you are installing pre-made store bought cabinets out of a box then the hot glue and particle board is going to let go long before you have any troubles regarding the holding power or shear strength of those drywall screws.  Just a thought.      I encountered some  guys once who actually put cabinets up using only a finish nailer!!!!!   I'm not kidding!   Now that's scarey! 

19. 
    DougU | Mar 09, 2004 05:43am | #69

    Mark

    Your going to be coming down here!

    Thats funny cause I'm taking the week off and going to go to Colorado, got a sister to see and a couple of BTers. I was thinking of going over to Iowa, not sure though.

    Hey when your down here give me a call(I'll e-mail you my phone #) if I'm here maybe we can meet up for a minute or two.

    I know I want to go to SXSW, I can drive one of Werthimers cars if I want, the car parade thing, dont know what they call it.

    I shamed Vaughan into letting me ride along with him in one of his cars so thats always an option.

    I think this car thing is after the sxsw, not sure, need to look into it, I really dont want to miss it.

    I'll e-mail ya

    Doug

20. 
    CapnMac | Mar 09, 2004 08:27am | #70

    Gee, I'll be in Austin, too, soon enough.  27th for the jjw birthday bash at the Paramount no less.  The "entourage" is not the same as in years past, so there's a lot less wandering around the Driskill looking for ot telling tales of the road after the show.

    Sunday will probably see tradition fullfilled with brunch at Threadgills.  This has been a blurry time, a time or two.

    Get to do even more music only a week later.  Chilifest will open on Saturday with Jason Boland.  Following the Straglers will be Pat Green, Cross Canadian Ragweed, Sammy Kershaw (a former contractor), and the title act this year, The Possum himself, George Jones.  Will be a long day, too.  But not a bad line up for only $30.

    http://www.chilifest.org/2004.htmOccupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

21. 
    DougU | Mar 09, 2004 02:51pm | #71

    Cap

    I got to get with this Austin social stuff, Whats the jjw birthday bash?

    Is that part of the SXSW or just something else?

    Man if you cant find stuff to do in Austin you arnt looking very hard.

    I got to get to work, I'll have to ask some Q's at work today.

    Doug

22. 
    Woodbutcher | Mar 11, 2004 08:36am | #78

    If i'm not mistaken, I believe he is referring to Jerry Jeff Walker....   

23. 
    DougU | Mar 11, 2004 02:53pm | #79

    Yea, now I'm hearing comercials on the raidio about the event.

    This Friday night at Antones they are doing a documentery(thats showing at the Paramont) on the bar, its importance to the blues, Vaughan, Wilson, Pinetop, some of the old Muddywaters band, some other people who I never heard of will be there. I think I'm going to go to that.

    Doug

24. 
    CapnMac | Mar 12, 2004 08:06am | #82

    Yea, now I'm hearing comercials on the raidio about the event.

    Never understood why they will do that.  The Paramount show sold out on 19 january, the day the tix went on sale.  Gruene Hall is probably near sold out.  The broken Spoke will look like a mosh pit right out the door, too.  (All the reasons I like reserved seat in the Paramount; that and Shiner in a can.)

    This Friday night at Antones they are doing a documentery(thats showing at the Paramont) 

    That is supposed to be good.  I've caught some of that in replay on the Austin Music Channel, the times I get to visit the fair city (or where the cable reaches <g>).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

25. 
    Woodbutcher | Mar 13, 2004 01:38am | #84

    That should be pretty cool.   There are those who credit Clifford Antone with  Playing a major role in reviving the blues.  He certainly was one of the founding fathers in the Austin live music scene.

26. 
    Sancho | Mar 13, 2004 03:33am | #85

    Just like desperados waiting for a train....:>) 

    Darkworksite4:

    Gancho agarrador izquierdo americano pasado que la bandera antes de usted sale

27. 
    john | Mar 14, 2004 07:47pm | #86

    I've got a video of JerryJeff playing that live at Luchenbach, awesome despite awful tape quality and the cameraman not realising who was playing the solo until it had nearly finished!

    John

28. 
    CapnMac | Mar 12, 2004 08:01am | #81

    is referring to Jerry Jeff Walker

    Give that man a kewpie doll!  (Or does that make me a maroon?)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

29. 
    steve | Mar 10, 2004 03:14am | #72

    well it finally happened, after almost 20 years in the kitchen installatio business, i actually got to rip out a job i installed, how often does that happen?

    turns out i installed a cheapie kitchen some 15 years ago, got a call last week from a new owner for a MUCH updated design and cabinet grade

    as soon as i drove up the drive, something looked familiar, start ripping old cabinets down and guess what: SM 1987 on the bottom of the countertop and back of the stove cabinet, my invisible trademark for 20 years!!

    installation job still looked great, cabinets didnt fare so well, stripped hinge holes, finish going down the tubes, countertop rotted around the faucets etc etc

    but after 17 years and three owners, not bad!!!

    it had to happen sooner or later, replacing my own work, and this is the first time for me, how about the rest of you?caulking is not a piece of trim

30. 
    Piffin | Mar 10, 2004 03:54am | #73

    Heck, I redid a kitchen three times in five years for the same owner.

    different wives 

     

    Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

31. 
    BillHartmann | Mar 10, 2004 06:57pm | #77

    Do you pay the divor attorny a commission?

32. 
    DougU | Mar 10, 2004 04:09am | #74

    Steve

    Changed out doors on some cabinets that I had built 5 or 6 years pryor. They didnt have the money at the time to get what they wanted so we put in slab doors, then when they had some cash they upgraded to raised panel doors, pull out shelfs, other misc, upgrades, used most of the old doors for some cabinets in the garage so there wasnt much waste. Not the same as yours but similar.

    Doug

33. 
    IMERC | Mar 10, 2004 04:54am | #75

    Ripped out work many times for one customer. She changed her mind more often than most change their socks... About 11 years worth. 

                                          Here fishy fishy....

34. 
    SEBDESN | Mar 10, 2004 05:18pm | #76

    I am in the middle of replacing my first kitchen that I built from scratch in 1976.

    Dam we do things different!!! You can't believe all the NAILS! Big ones, little ones, jeeze. No drywall screws...Heck they didn't even have drywall screws then I dont think. Wanted to save a bunch of 1/2" oak strip wall paneling that I made...was gonna run it thru the thickness planer and re use it on something else, guess what , idiot boy glued and nailed it up! Then I had to patch all the holes where the glue pulled the top coat of plaster off the walls.LOL>

    Bud

       

35. 
    JeffBuck | Mar 12, 2004 05:26am | #80

    I worked for a designer that'd have ya frame the addition ...

    then move exterior walls 3 inches ...

    because it didn't "feel right" .....

    Not quite the same good feeling as you had!

    I learned to mumble ...

    they pay me to build it ... they pay me to re-build it ....

    JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

         Artistry in Carpentry                

36. 
    Piffin | Mar 12, 2004 03:15pm | #83

    I got one of those "Let's bump this wall out another three and a half feeet" deals. The engineer loved the cantilever over foundation. 

     

    Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

37. 
    Piffin | Mar 06, 2004 02:35am | #40

    LOL

    I really had to laugh at that one. I used to work with a guy who said, darn it all, Piffin, you do the same amount of work as any two average men -

    or ten office boys.

    he was an old timer who thought office work was for wimins 

     

    Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

3. 
   SEBDESN | Mar 05, 2004 05:36am | #22

   what sort of  arrangement do you use for those things???I have hung a bunch of strange stuff, but haven't got the solution for them...(other than another person )  The big double ovens etc are no problem, just those "@#$%^", reefer cabs....

   Bud  

1. 
   steve | Mar 05, 2004 06:18am | #23

   the big reefer cabinets, i place the cabinets/panels on both sides, one side loose but within an inch, and then put strips of material on the top of the cabinet to rest on what ever is next to it, that way the cabinet has something to rest on in the right place while i screw it all togethercaulking is not a piece of trim

2. 
   gatno | Mar 05, 2004 06:27am | #24

   encourage cabinet makers to use European style bases!  Flat bottomed boxes with adjustable legs.  Gawd, shimming up the bases should be a thing of the past.  Mount kicks to the legs.  Thanks, Ikea. 

3. 
   steve | Mar 05, 2004 06:37am | #26

   i really dont like those legs actually for complicated kitchens with multiple pieces of toekick that ahve to be mitered and glued, the're okay for simple layouts though but toekick is still somewhat loosecaulking is not a piece of trim

2. 
   12345 | Mar 05, 2004 03:51am | #21

   Thanks to everyone for all the good advice! It's greatly appreciated. Tom S

3. 
   mdresimprov | Mar 05, 2004 04:16pm | #31

   Good info. I've got 2 kitchen jobs coming up. Thanks for sharing. Now about that cabinet support jig.....

   MES

1. 
   calvin | Mar 05, 2004 06:39pm | #32

   I set the bases first.  Here's a low tech, low cost cab support.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

   Quittin' Time

1. 
   misfit | Mar 05, 2004 06:50pm | #34

   Calvin

    I like the idea with clamping the levels to the cabinets. I'll do that when I install mine. Thanks A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work

1. 
   calvin | Mar 05, 2004 07:21pm | #35

   Yeah, that and two hands, a drill motor, shims and a little luck..........

   Remember the manufacturers are constantly trying to find ways to throw you off.  Perfection on plumb is a good thing to get, but sometimes you can just get REAL close.  Imperfection can magnify itself in a long bank of cabs.

   Here's something I've seen more than once.  I now know to turn over any specialty cab especially the pie shaped ones.  Must really try their patience in the factory when something outta the norm is ordered.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

   Quittin' Time

2. 
   misfit | Mar 05, 2004 07:48pm | #36

   What's up with the angle? Manufactoring error, did someone spec it wrong, or is it supposed to be that way?

   Sure glad I stuck with standard instead of custom. Shouldn't be too tough with those, I hope<g>

    A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work

   Edited 3/5/2004 12:52:00 PM ET by bob

3. 
   calvin | Mar 05, 2004 11:31pm | #38

   You bet manufacturers error.  The cab was requested with a toe kick at the front (stock) and also with a kick at the finished end (side) as this was the end of a bank of cabs.  Because of seeing it before, I turn em over to check.  Plays havoc once it's set and you're going along on the kick cover.  Makes an odd silouette in relation to the finish floor if you don't catch it................

   Certainly not hard to fix..................

   If you notice it.  That's why I point it out at every opportunity.  Who'd expect it to show up like that.  And when you're flying along trying to get them set so the corian guy can template tomorrow morning so the remodeled homowner doesn't hear the usual 2-3 weeks from template.........you'd better be ready.  Material can be ordered from the print, the time line can be set well in advance.  It's one of the things that irks me and I don't do enough kitchens to have a buddy relationship with the corian or granite guy.  The cab distributor would have you believe (here) that it's normal to wait 2-3 wks for the fancy product.  Bull ####.  I set the day a month in advance.  Confirm 2 wks in advance and have those base cabs set.  In the case of this kitchen, had to have the uppers done so they could template the whole shelonga.  I met my date, they templated and installed 4 days later.  We both kept up our end and the homowner was inconvenienced for a minimal amount of time.  Sure makes a guy look good.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

   Quittin' Time

4. 
   JeffBuck | Mar 06, 2004 02:06am | #39

   my Dad has a similar stand ... he sets the bottoms first ..

   then has a bunch of 4 sided boxes with corner bracing ... that act as stands.

   Same deal .. a little shy .. and shim to the level line.

   Here's another tip everyone should have ...

   The Pony Cabinet Claw ...

   great tool for hanging cabs ....

   well worth the price ... makes for both an easier .. better .. and quicker job.

   JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

        Artistry in Carpentry                

5. 
   MisterT | Mar 06, 2004 03:40pm | #52

   I've seen that a number of times.

   Makes you wonder about the payscale of the assembly guys.

   I wonder if the designers are actually drawing it that way??

   Oh well...

   good thing is that 99% of customers will never even know anything is "wrong"

   Mr T

   Do not try this at home!

   I am an Experienced Professional!

   Remodeling Lead Carpenter w/ 20 years exp.

   + A Construction Engineering Degree

   Located in Elmira, NY

   Incessantly Whining Liberal

   Sarcastic Smartass

   Cunning Linguist

   Family Man

   Dog Lover (NOT THAT WAY YOU PREVERT!!!)

2. 
   mdresimprov | Mar 05, 2004 08:03pm | #37

   Thanks.

   MES

3. 
   Piffin | Mar 06, 2004 02:43am | #41

   Oh, I see, you just clamp enough levels to it and the air bubble in the vial holds it up!

   ;o) 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   Sphere | Mar 06, 2004 02:53am | #42

   I just love it when the plumbing stubs are a mile long and combined in the floor and wall..or really, really crooked.

   Or better yet..when the duct for the M/W or hood is in the wrong place..

   View Image

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

2. 
   calvin | Mar 06, 2004 02:58am | #44

   How bout the two coppers a foot outta the wall with the drain coming up outta the floor.   Some plumbers I swear think you can pass a cabinet through anything.  In deference to the good ones, must be unattended helpers I'm thinking.

   edit: sorry, read and typed so fast I missed meat of the article.  You must have worked in the neighborhood.  You get em to come back so they don't shoot you for some surgery, and they stand there with their XXXX in their hand saying "whaaaaaaaaaa".  I swear, they musta dropped the bucket when they were dishin out brains.

   Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

   Quittin' Time

   Edited 3/5/2004 7:02 pm ET by calvin

3. 
   Sphere | Mar 06, 2004 03:11am | #45

   neighbor hood..not yours..lol. Back in Philly area my buddy and I did all Kand B installs for a hotshot show room...some days we did 2 kitchens and 4 baths..not super big or high end stuff..mostly condos. Man we got good at cussing plumbers, and sheetrockers ( rock over a air return grill or a few 'missing' outlets..) and the occasional hvac guys..hows about a toekick vent in a dishwasher hole..LOL.

   View Image

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

4. 
   calvin | Mar 06, 2004 03:35am | #46

   "hows about a toekick vent in a dishwasher hole..LOL."

   I haven't heard it all, but with this I'm getting close.  ThanksRemodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

   Quittin' Time

5. 
   Sphere | Mar 06, 2004 03:45am | #47

   Hey , one thing more..kinda off track a bit..in the last home I installed the Cabs. the HO bought and had wiring for..get this..toekick ropelites..a nightlight in the bathrooms. MAster had white carpet and guest had green and white vinyl floors...looked really neat. They (the HO's) were taller than average..so all the cabs were raised..we had a 5" toekick.

   He also had them above the crown on the Kit. Cabs . (10' Ciel.)made for a warm light above and pretty inexpensive.

   View Image

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

6. 
   calvin | Mar 06, 2004 05:28am | #48

   Hauntingly beautiful.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

   Quittin' Time

7. 
   DougU | Mar 06, 2004 05:29am | #49

   Sphere

    had wiring for..get this..toekick ropelites..

   Did one of those before, the owner liked all of his cabinets, kitchen and vanities to have the rope light in the toe kick, kinda cool at night.

   Doug

   PS, still working on that cane.

8. 
   Sphere | Mar 06, 2004 03:28pm | #51

   I hope that cane is worth something to someone..I just found yesterday..that not just a few busted pipes need replacing..the whole shebang has to go...200.00 so far in copper and cpvc transition fittings, turned on the water and every wetwall was ..well, A FOUNTAIN Wall..so today I am starting all over..kicking my self for not going PEX...kick, kick, kick.

   View Image

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

9. 
   DanH | Mar 06, 2004 10:03pm | #59

   [QUOTE]

   How bout the two coppers a foot outta the wall with the drain coming up outta the floor. Some plumbers I swear think you can pass a cabinet through anything. In deference to the good ones, must be unattended helpers I'm thinking.

   Pot calling the kettle black??? (VBG) I once had to install a microwave/vent hood combo where the cabinet guy had cut out for the vent about 2" too far to one side. Had to so a little "surgery" on the bottom of the cabinet to center the vent so the MW would go in. Luckily there was enough play in the duct to move it that far (partly because the upper cutout was so much oversized).

10. 
    calvin | Mar 06, 2004 11:29pm | #61

    No sir  (semi) BG, in these parts cab guy cuts the holes neatly in the center of the box at the proper spot for the micro outlet.  Where the heck else would you cut it.  And then the cab guy mounts the micro.  Is there another way?  As others have mentioned, have you ever seen a toe kick vent in the right place?.............that hasn't been crushed by ?..........that you can find a register cover that'll not interfere with shoe mldg...........?

    And don't get me started on the small wall cab and the lip-over width of the oven manufacturers.  What a 1/2" each side might break the bank?  You'd think plastic was made outta gold.

    But hey, all in a days work.

    Sphere:  10 kitchens and 14 baths in a day?

    Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

    Quittin' Time

11. 
    calvin | Mar 06, 2004 02:56am | #43

    Yeah, now you got it.  If I want to move it across the room, the laser of course.

    In regards to what you wrote jeff, It does amaze the uninformed doesn't it.  All done with smoke and mirrors.  Big assed pantry, no problem.  It almost gets to be a challenge.  Helper?  I don't need no stinkin helper............

    I like when the homowner helps, goes to bed - wakes up with muscles that were never even thought of.  Makes writing the check so much easier when they've had a taste of the work.  Ha!Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

    Quittin' Time

10. 
    steve | Mar 04, 2004 09:29pm | #13

    sorry for the short reply last night, but have some serious advice

    ive been doing cabinets for 15 years so......

    start with the uppers

    mark a point 54 inches from the floor near the corner

    use a level and draw a line from that mark on both walls of the corner about 3 feet in both directions

    locate and mark where the studs are

    fasten a verticle support to each of the closest studs where the corner cabinet is to go, verticle supports are screwed to the wall below the hieght of the lowers so that screw holes are covered

    check the walls for plumb to know which part of the cabinet will be tight against the wall

    measure and drill holes in the cabinet to match the stud positions, chances are with a 24 inch corner cabinet, two studs, one on each wall will be usable

    lift the cabinet into place resting on the supports and drive the screw where the cabinet should be tight against the wall, chances are pretty good the other spots will need to be shimmed

    relax, it wont fall down!!!

    shim to level and plumb in all planes, this is criticle, and screw the rest of the screws in, not too tight or the cabinet will twist, check plumb and level with each screw

    the rest is easy usually if the gable of the corner cabinet is plumb in both directions, just measure for the studs, drill and screw, checking for level and plumb as you go

    base cabinets are quite different, post later

    caulking is not a piece of trim

1. 
   steve | Mar 04, 2004 09:52pm | #14

   okay, now the bases

   find the high point of the floor

   usually at or near the outside wall

   place and shim the corner cabinet so that it is high enough for the highest point

   again the first cabinet is criticle

   then same as uppers

   a big peninsula? well then experience comes into play

   basically what you want is that any cabinet with an exposed end especially on the end of a peninsula should be scribed to the floor or use a scribe panel on the end

   biggest key thing is that the first cabinet should be perfectly plumb and level in all directionscaulking is not a piece of trim

11. 
    nomad36us | Mar 09, 2004 03:02am | #66

    As a former cabinetmaker, now a commercial carpenter (what was I thinking?), I think I can add something.  I built a simple lift for upper cabinets similar to the ones you can buy overpriced in the back of magazines now.  Mine used a boat winch to hoist the cabinet(s) but I added a custom made ratcheting device that would allow me to lift or adjust the cabinets in 1/64" increments.  I always used panhead screws as opposed to flatheads and if going into furring strips over block walls, I would use Tapcons (tm).  The biggest thing to remember is that whatever is behind the cabinets won't matter to the homeowners, just make the boxes look good at the front side.