I need to get rid of a customer.
They questioned my price…wanted to haggle.
They did not want to pay a deposit…I insisted that I only scheduled work after recieving a deposit.
They said they would mail a deposit…two weeks later, nothing…so I inform them that May is full and June is filling up.
They then say they “are not happy”…wanted it done by Memorial Day (company coming).
I say, you can have June 22, if I get a deposit now…they say, “that is unacceptable.”
How do you offically tell a potential customer to “go jump in a lake”.
Replies
if they're like this now, imagine how they'll be while you're doing the work
or trying to get paid
just quietly let it go so they won't make it worse by bad-mouthing you later
When they said that your date was unacceptable, was that the end of the conversation - or was anything else said that implied that there would be more discussion?
If it really ended with them saying that your schedule was unacceptable, you owe them nothing more. From their point of view, they've "fired" you.
If more discussion is planned, I would tell them that you're fully booked for the next several weeks and may have difficulty getting to them at all. It may be a lie, but do you really want them as a customer?
Noneed for a lie of any kind.
A simple letter stating, "Because you have failed to meet the terms of my proposal in a timely manner, I hereby withdraw that offer to perform your work. Thank you for the opportunity to have discussed this project with you."
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I need to say something about deposit, since the hurricane, they have been hundred of case where, out of state contractor, working out of pickups, no office. Been taking deposits for hurricane damage and then running with the money. The local DA been putting them in jail like clockwork. If fact they are running commericals about giving deposits.One guy took 30 k from this lady and ran.Maybe there a better way?
Better for who?I know states where that becomes too prevalent they crack down and pass laws where a contractor cannot take a deposit or that severely limit the size of one, which just dries up the cost of doing business and limits competition which runs costs up higher.Better way is for homeowners to check references and hire local trustworthy contractors. It is easier for a HO to check on a contractor than the other way around.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Better way is for homeowners to check references and hire local trustworthy contractors. It is easier for a HO to check on a contractor than the other way around.I have no answer, remember I was the one on the HVAC topic to hire the biggest, the one with the most employee and longest in business, I am 100% for local just because they will be here in ten years.I, as of the last post was stating, what the newspaper is claiming with out of state contrctor. I have two on my project, one from new jersey and one from N.C. They have no idea what they are doing, and wont listen. They think you can really backfill underwater with fat clay.I have no answer.......except I better get back to the garage, just came in for a pepsi and the dog.
Just 'cause he's from NJ, doesn't mean he knows anything.
NJ 's only requirement for liscensing is having liability insurance. You don't have to actually know something.
I guess I've displayed a high amount of construction knowledge with some of my posts. But don't use me as a standard <G>
know states where that becomes too prevalent they crack down and pass laws where a contractor cannot take a deposit
California! gotta love it"I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun."
Raymond Chandler's Philip Marlowe
I have been in this position... What worked for me was explaining to the customer that no amount of money would ever make me want to work for them...... EVER!!!!
They finally understood what I was trying to communicate.
"It's easier for a HO to check on a contractor than the other way around."
LOL. I sometimes wish that HO's were required to have a HO's license (with all the attendent BS we have to have) before they could hire work done.
I always require a deposit up front, with the exception of some elderly person who just needs some little piddly thing done and can't afford to do much (sometimes I just do it pro bono anyway. (If I was a multi-millionaire I would require a deposit). For me, it just displays some commitment on the part of the customer and is the beginning of the mutual trust relationship that is necessary.
I work for a lot of out-of-state clients on vacation homes and I really like to have their funds to work with than having to dig into my own.
But, I recall a thread on this forum several years ago where the subject of deposits/upfront money came up and I was astonished at how many of the pros responding didn't ask for deposits.
One poster in particular claimed that he'd been contracting for over 30 years and had never required money up front.
But regardless of how it's done, hiring local is the best way to go in most cases. Oregon has a pretty easy method for HO's to check out contractors on the licensing board's website....but those who shop for the cheap bypass that and often get burned.
Piffin -
I would bet that you're a WAY BETTER politician than I am. - lol
if it takes this much getting a deposit,i'll bet a cold one getting paid will be 3 times harder. unless it's a job you can't live without,i wouldn't call them for any reason,they call you and i would just tell them that when they told you that "it was unacceptable "you went ahead and continued to schelde work and disposed of the estimate as you understood they weren't interested by not sending a deposit and saying it was unacceptable. you'd be glad to write another estimate as soon as youe schedule opens up. thanks for giving me a shot,bye. larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Napalm!!!
I don't Know what I am doing
But
I am VERY good at it!!
Your situation is pretty easy legally. You asked for payment and they didn't make it. They haven't agreed to your terms.
A quick letter saying that based on the circumstances, you no longer are interested in doing the job. If you want, you could say your too busy. If you want to be more direct, tell them that you do not feel that it would be a good working relationship for either of you since they have expectations that you do not believe you would be able to fulfill.
Whatever it takes, do it now and save yourself a whole bunch of headaches.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
They don't want the work done. And I don't think you really need to do the work. You should be able to tell by now that they are going to be a nightmare. Tell them the way they have been treating you is not the way you are gong to do business and they need to find someone else. Then make sure that you tell them you have no one you can refer to them. Cut them totally out of your life.
If you take them on with the way they are treating you now you are getting ready to commit something akin to the million dollar caulk joint.
Who dares, wins.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
Sounds like you're fortunate to get the clear message now that these are not folks you want to do business with. Run, laddie, run!
They've already given you the out you need by saying the proposed schedule was 'unacceptable'. Move on, say no more, and if they call back, express surprise. "From our last conversation I thought you didn't want me to do your work."
Or don't answer the phone any more. Ever.
I agree with those who have told you to take the "When you told me my conditions were unacceptable, I took that to mean that you were not interested in hiring me" position.
Write them off and if they do call back, make sure you let them know that you are both starting over from scratch with the proposal and scheduling, and you're even more booked up now than you were then, not to mention many of your material and labor costs associated with the job have gone up in the interim which will affect your new proposal.
price yurself out of the job and this estimate cost a passel of buck ya say???Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Why bother talking to them anymore or returning their calls?? Do you owe the world a job done just because they call you and ask? Forget it--get called ID, don't answer your phone if they call, and delete their emails. I can't imagine taking work from someone who acted like that up front, and I don't care what they say to anyone else about me.
I agree completely.
Why slice a finger off one piece at a time.
No reason to lie....just move on.
It's a gift to have a rotten customer reveal themselves before papers are signed/money changes hands/work has commenced.
I wouldn't go out of my way to tell them anything. If they call you tell them you aren't interested in the job anymore. No need to lie, or give them any explanation.
Glamorous
If your normal procedure is to have a deposit before you begin work, tell them no money, no workee. If they give you a check, make sure it dosn't bounce before you continue. Make sure that you jack the deposit up to pay for the frustration. Luck.
you have already done it, now the follow up is, "No ,thank you"
I'm sorry Mr. or Mrs. So&So, I do not think we are a good match for each other, my time table will not allow me to complete the project by time I reach your dead-line. I think you will need to find someone else for the job.
Let me recommend... then give them someone you know can do it in there time table, if no one can, then just give the number to someone you don't really like.
You could also tell them that while they've been debating giving you a deposit, 3 other clients have signed their contracts and you are now booked through the end of the summer. Sorry they should have signed up last week when you were still capable of taking on the project sooner. If that doesn't work there is always the old stand by of F-off
We do this a couple of times a month it seams. Either for the reasons you state, wrong type of work, not a good fit for the company etc. On letter head:
Dear Mrs. So and so,
Thank you for the oppurtunity to look at the work needed on your home. Due to the heavy volume of work we are experiencing and the issue with deposit and scheduling that you have we will have to decline the oppurtunity to work for you. Thank you again.
DanT
Hey Dan ...
how'd one of my leads end up calling him?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I wondered the same thing. Hey we just had a call from a lady that wants a price to fix her new home. Some "friends" built it for her. She is in her 60's. Not a square door frame in the place, drywall looks to have never been sanded but painted anyway.
Front porch has a peak in the floor with fall down both sides of about 2". Roof is that fiber wavey stuff they sell at Lowes (can't remember the name of it). More of the same throughout. While in the house she had soft porn playing on the tv. My 25 year old sales guy was flustered to say the least lol. Anyway we don't have time for it. Want her number? DanT
that reminds me of one I looked at a few years ago. Nice old widow lady but her late husband had built the place and it was apinfully obvious that he was NO carpenter. Walking up you could see sloppy shingle work and porch posts off plumb.
She wanted a door "adjusted" so it would close easier.The floor was sagging away from it and I'd bet my right #### that if there was a header over it, there was no jack studs supporting it. Yet she was going on and on how he was a wonderful man and a great builder....but I could see no way to repair and do what was needed without insulting his memory....I was just too busy for her
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nah ...
it's hard-core or nothing for me!
I'll give U a call by the end of the week with the latest and greatest.
one of the new "issues" ... the sink drain ... is "a hair off center" ...
"not by much, but totally unacceptable" ...
I'l tell the plumber to wave his pipe wrench over it on his next visit and tell her he's sorry and embarrased and it's all fixed now.
and ... the faucet we're replacing in the up stairs bath ... 'cause it don't match exact the one in the down stairs ... gonna replace it .... with another one that doesn't match!
current one is a Moen that ran me $175 with the plumbers discount at the plumbing supply ... new one ... gonna be about $125 off the shelf at home depot ...
but "it's better" ... as she used to sell faucets years ago ...
told Cath it was either me buy that faucet or a case of bullets.
next complaint was about the shower divertor ... told her I agree and we could swap it out for $2,200.00. Let me know when to start. Haven't heard back on that one.
all started 'cause she has chrome ...
said she wanted chrome ... I told the plumber chrome ...
and he mistakenly supplied and installed chrome.
what were we thinking?
I can't tell the plumber ... because he will buy the bullets!
Jeff
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Do not tell them to "jump in the lake," as that demeans you as a professional. You don't say anything about not being able to work together as they 'know' they are okay: it must be you. You don't write them anything as that might imply there was some sort of agreement. When they call, answer the phone, express surprise to hear from them as the last thing you heard was they "couldn't accept the terms and completion date." Thank them for their time and the opportunity to bid the job and tell them you regret things didn't work out. Do not mention future jobs or bids with them, do not recommended anyone else for the job--"all the quality folks, <yourself> included, are probably fully booked now."
Do you have a signed contract?
If not, then I would send them a letter stating that you will not be working for them. Don't say you can't, just say you won't.
Ignoring them, IMHO, is a bad idea. You don't want them bad mouthing you around town saying that you left them hanging.
If you have a contract, you may want to call your lawyer and get his take. DonK says you don't have a contract, but if I were you I would make 100% sure of this. The alternative would be to get a release signed by them stating that any previous agreements are null and void.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"Two words. Dead Possum." MarkH.
Try it see if they call you back.:)
Wop bop a loo bop a lop bam boom!
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
Jump in the lake?
Sounds to me like you've already got them swimming in over their heads.
You told them what the ground rules are for working with you and they weeded themselves out. From all you have said, these are the kind of people who would be a continual nightmare, changing their minds how and what and when every couple of days and the same runaround when it comes time to get paid.
Realize this - if they can't get you a deposit on time, they won't even dream of trying to get you the final payment on time, if at all!
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
call them and tell them your too busy but you can recommend someone then refer them to the town lowballer, That way you knock 2 bad birds off with one stone. Not that i ever did that just heard about it
When I met with a potential I was judging them as much as they me.....and it never took much for me to back off.....
and be honest about.
"I don't think we can work together, but thanks for the call" etc.
There are fast carpenters who care..... there are slow carpenters who care more.....there are half fast carpenters who could care less......
The most commonly used technique here in New Jersey seems to be getting caller Id and never talking to them again. Personally, I see nothing wrong with the idea of simply saying "I've decided I'm not interested in this job."
You can add nice stuff about being extremely busy and feeling you couldn't give it the attention it deserves, but my feeling is that that will get you in trouble.
You might pick a competitor and recommend that they talk with him.
George Patterson
I'm in a small town. So I don't want potential candidates repeating to one another that I am too busy to consider them so I wouldn't add that by way of explanation.
I want to be in charge of my own whisper campaign. WOM advertising qalways works best, but it can take some management and guidance. visiting the little old ladies at tea time and all that
;)I did explain to a customer once. I did a whole addition and kitchen remo over the winter while they were gone and they were delighted - all was well, etec.They wanted a screen door so I estimated and took a depoit for it, then as I was leaving he asked where I leeft his whatever that had disappeared over the winter, implying that I had taken something of his. I explained that I had never even seen the thing and that he must have just misplaced it and forgot.
OK he says but clearly not convinced.
A couple days later there was a phone message from him that somebody had been in his house and left the door open while he and family were gone all day. He was very accusatory since I was the only one who had a key...He was an old man with diabetes and I think he was confusing himself with blood sugar swings, but I didn't care for his atitude, twice in a couple of days accusing me of something I had nothing to do with. He or his grandchildren probably just forgot to close the door or thought that they had....So I wrote a letter ( did not want to do this personally in front of his family) explaining that it was obvious that he no longer trusted me and that I will not work in a relationship devoid of trust. I included his key and the check he had given for deposit.
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Potential candidates telling each other "he was too busy for my project" is actually the very best WOM you can get.
Discovered this a few years ago, when I was overbooked. After much hesitation, I started telling people "I'm too busy, the earliest I could start is in 6 months..." and demand soared rather than drop off. Confused the h3ll out of me, until I figured it out: Too busy = in high demand = must be really good. Another nice side-effect of "too busy, but might fit you in..." is no more haggling. When potential customers know that you have a list of other folks vying for a spot on your schedule, they're more worried about "locking you in" than about "getting a deal".Basswood - when he said "that's unacceptable", he declined your offer. It's already a done deal, just move on. If he calls, be surprised. If you really want to, I suppose you could write a letter or make a call formally withdrawing your offer, but I wouldn't bother.
Edited 5/13/2007 2:11 pm ET by brooklynfrenchie
I think you may have a point there. I found a couple of years ago that if I said I was booked out people would hesitate but turn around and say "well I hate to wait that long but better get on the list now".
I think they believe you are busy for a reason and it creates urgency of sorts. We now tell people who are hesitating that while we are booked out a few months we have hired more people and can't keep up. Believe it or not it turns out to be a strong closing method. DanT
It does remove negotiation from th ediscussion
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
True. Just a few weeks ago I had a lady who needed a new bathtub and wanted to negotiate price. I tried to nicely say I don' t negotiate my price. She went on and on for 15 minutes or so on why it was so expensive and she would need to call elsewhere and her son wouldn't let her spend that kind of money. After it all she again asked if I would consider it and I said no.
She asked why and I said I have a 2 month backlog of people willing to pay my price, why would I lower it? She quieted down and said she was going to check around. She called the next week and booked. DanT
I just lost some clients on purpose.
They gutted their entire kitchen except for the sink base. Then called me. Wanted that redone as well as a few damaged ceilings from an old leaking roof.
I looked at the job, called them a few days later asked for material money to get started. Which covered everything but the cabinets. They said that was too much and weren't going to pay that.
It was $550! Thats it, they thought that was too much. Right there on the phone I said "If you can't pay for materials, then you can't pay me. I am going to pass on your job and move on. I wish you luck with whatever direction you go from here."
Oddly enough, a situation like this is best handled as was shown in "The Godfather." The scene I'm referring to has Don Corleone, and Sonny, meeting with a new mobster, who wants the Family to use it's contacts to protect his narcotics trade. Don Vito says "We have considered your proposal, and have decided it is not something with which we want to become involved. We thank you for considering us, but gratefully decline your kind offer. We wish you the best in your enterprise." Unfortunately, in the movie, this refusal was all it took to start a war. Yet, was the Godfather's decision in error? Or, was he in a 'sure-lose' corner? You don't want to work for the guy. You're a contractor ... you don't HAVE to work for him. Sure, it's always nice to be polite, and honest ... but the clown is likely to get pissed anyway. If he's the sort to bad-mou5th you all over town .... well, that will happen no matter what. If I've learned anything over the years, it's to trust my instincts. One more thought occurs to me. Where do some of these folks get their "business" ideas from?
First of all, many work in places where they never ask- they give orders. Everything my way, if I'm the boss. That's what they're taught. Mutual respect? Give and take? Ha!
Then there are the various 'consumer interest' groups that actively preach ideas that are simply wrong. They start by implying that every contractor is a dishonorable, incompetent slime. They start off by assuming that all contractors are interchangeable commodities. They encourage the customer to get involved in the details of the job. (Heck, I had one guy get all upset that I was holding a paintbrush wrong!) In many cases. the difficult customer is usually both ignorant ... and scared. I find it useful to back off some, get away from the job specifics, and discuss what it is they are REALLY trying to accomplish. Sometimes, though, the guy is simply a headless horse. For him, there's no hope.
I was working out of town and I need some insulation blown in my attic, so I ask if he could do it on saturday. he got all huffy and say he doesnt work on saturday, so I called somebody else, sure no problem.So even if they dont use you, they will find somebody else, so no big problem.
Dont throw them away! you need to stick to your guns, you are right. Thats how you do business and if they dont like it they can walk away. Protect yourself however with a very detailed scope of work and have them sign off on it everystep of the way. That way they cant wiggle.
-worth exactly 2 cents!
BW-
A couple of posters recommended that you refer the customer to another contractor - an enemy or hack.
I want to warn against that. I've seen lawsuits based on recommendations - engineer gives customer the name of an asbestos abatement contractor who never finishes the job because he's uninsured, undercapitalized and such. Owner gets hit for fines and remediation by the City - who does he look to? The engineer.
LIke Mom used to say," it's always fun until somebody gets hurt". :-)
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I've seen lawsuits based on recommendations
I agree with your post regarding the recomendation of people that you normally wouldnt.
I have a good friend, he was doing some carpentry work on a house - he was not the GC. HO wondered about an excavation guy and my friend gave him a couple names of people that he knew, thats really about the gist of his involvment.
HO goes out and hires one of these guys, excavator rams his back hoe into the fondation and does some/a lot of damage. HO goes after the excavator and my friend the carpenter.
Carpenter is forced to hire a lawyer and defend himself almost causing bankruptcy.
"no good deed goes unpunished"
Doug
This calls for a CYA letter. Immediately send them a note saying "Sorry we weren't able to help you, and we hope you are able to find another contractor who will be able to fill your needs." If you don't make it clear, in writing, that there is no deal, you leave yourself open to them claiming, for example, that you agreed to do their job and, when you didn't, they had to go hire another contractor for twice the amount to do the work you had promised, so you owe them the difference.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
If there is no signed contract how could that happen?
Just because there is no *signed* contract, does not mean there is no legally enforceable contract. Depending on the scope of the work, and the law of the jurisdiction of the OP, an oral contract may well be completely enforceable. If so, the only question is whether there was a contact and what were it's terms. I've made a lot of $$ over the years in cases fighting over oral contracts -- these cases are generally more involved and expensive than cases with written contracts, since it's one side's word against the other's. (Oral contracts tend to be moving targets, with terms changing as suits the needs of the parties at any given time.) Under these circumstances, a letter making it clear that there is no contract is cheap insurance.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike and ALL,Thank you for your thoughtful responces. Great ideas. I hate this kind of crapola.I used to assume I could do a great job and win over the PITA types...now I know better.Here is the letter I sent:--"Dear Mr. Blah,Thank you for the opportunity to look at your project.When we last spoke, you informed me that the schedule I proposed was “unacceptable.†It is my policy, as I clearly stated to you, to only schedule work after receiving a deposit. You stated that a deposit would be mailed within a few days, but did not follow through.Due to these problems with the deposit and scheduling, I will be unable to work for you.I wish you success with another contractor more suited to your needs and timetable.Sincerely,Brian"I won't miss working for that guy...not at all.Thanks again everyone!
"I won't miss working for that guy...not at all."
Sure you will -- and so will we. I wuz lookin' forward to hearing all the horror stories! ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
You sadistic ambulace chaser types make me sick! 8>{
Not moi!
But I've got a good ambulance chaser story:
An elderly lady client of a law firm I used to be in was walking across the street in downtown Pittsburgh. Not being particularly acute in the hearing department, she failed to hear the siren on the ambulance that was coming down the street, which of course hit her as she stepped off the curb into it's path.
The impact knocked her to the ground and rendered her breifly unconscious and somewhat muddled. The EMTs immediately jumped out of the truck and rushed to her aid, whereupon she woke up and stated: "Gee, you guys sure got here fast!"
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
good letter.
jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
just do it...
fire them...
and tell them why...
quit....
be too busy...
and stay that way...
close the door on the project...
these peole are gonna be royal PITAs...
listen to the bells, whistles and flag waving going on in yur head...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
<<they say, "that is unacceptable.">>
OK. "Unacceptable" is the same as rejecting your proposal so you're off the hook. I'd probably send them a very brief letter, if I had any feeling that they might want to mess with me, thanking them for considering me for the job. Sorry we couldn't come to terms, perhaps another time. That's it. Keep a copy of the letter on file. If they call again I'd tell them that I'd booked several months' work, one job in particular which might lead to a lot more work, so I'm unable to predict when I might be available again.
That's the long diplomatic response. In real life I'd just say, "OK...find somebody else."
I remember getting a call to rebuild a poorly installed vinyl liner in-ground swimming pool. Very pleasant gentleman who owned a gun shop where I'd been a customer. We agreed verbally on every point except the last one, how communications would proceed once the job began. His wife, who'd had no part of our negotiations, wanted to be "in charge" of the day to day operations, and he gave in to her demands.
I told him that, once work began, his/her back yard would be my jobsite and that no one would be welcome there during working hours. It's a long standing policy of mine, not to get involved in chatting with wives of clients, so I formalize that policy by requiring that all communications about the job happen between the HO and me, after the day's work is over.
After confering with his wife, he called me back and said that I'd have to do it her way because it was her home too and I didn't have any choice. I replied that, although he might not have any choice, I still did. He thought I was bluffing because it never occured to him that I'd turn down the kind of money we were talking about, just to hold to a principle. He was struck dumb when I said simply and happily, "find someone else".
Since early on in this business, I've learned to avoid PIA customers, at almost all costs. They take the pleasure out of a good day's work and that's just "not acceptable" to me.
Hudson Valley Carpenter: "Since early on in this business, I've learned to avoid PIA customers, at almost all costs. They take the pleasure out of a good day's work and that's just "not acceptable" to me."Can't be repeated enough!