How to tell if house is level/plumb
Okay so our house has been raised and leveled. The wife is pretty darn convinced that the whole shebang is listing to the left. She has scientifically decided this by standing across the street and looking…
But I was thinking, its an old Victorian house with lots of ‘character’ what would be the way to actually tell if the house is plumb? I went around the outside walls with my 4′ level but the house has old uneven clapboard siding and how you going to get an honest reading with that?
The wife shot the house with the laser level trying to compare the lasers vertical line with what she thought vertical lines on the house should be…but its an old screwy house…
So I’m stumped any ideas?
Also on the leveling the floors topic. Can someone suggest a good way to check the level of the floors? The spec in the contract reads floors will be level to within 1/4″ of relative level. To me that means the overall difference of the height of the floors for the entire first floor is limited to 1/4″. I can put my 4′ level around but is that really the best way?
Any useful suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Replies
Fill it with water and measure the line left on the walls.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"People that never get carried away should be"
Put a marble in the center of the room and see which way it rolls?
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Good excuse to buy a billiards table if ya ask me//(G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"People that never get carried away should be"
For us actually it'd be a air hockey table! I've always wanted a big commercial grade air hockey table. The wif and I have quite a rivalery going...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
You beat me to this one, Huck. - lol
Get some clear tubing and make a water level for her... a lot of people think they can see level, me included, but even I'm not always right<G>
You could also set up a rotary laser in the street some night, tell your neighbor's it's your wife's idea
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Last weekend I was watching House Flip on TV and they were checking the level of a slab with a digital reader of some sort. The contractor placed a small device on the floor connected by a long length of black conduit (or tubing?) to what looked like a calculator which read +3 or -2 etc. when set down in distant rooms. I wonder of it was a sophisticated water level? I couldn't think of what else it could be.
I have not seen that show. But I think tht it is the same one as used on Hometime.The best that I can tell is similar to a water level with a sensitive pressure tranducer to operate the display.And it is fairly neat. You can put the senosr end on a stop and then hit zero and that point will be the reference. Then move around to other spots and it will directly read out how much higher or lower that spot is than the reference..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
When I used a water level, I used a bucket and the other end taped to a yardstick held vertically. Then I just read the height on the yardstick as I moved it around.
Thanks. It looked very useful. The funny thing was, once the foundation had been jacked using the device, before the owner would cut the contractor a check, he confirmed it was level by putting a tennis ball on the floor to see if it rolled. From high tech to low.
Find another project to distract the wife.
Dan-
Take your wife to that "Mystery Spot" down near Santa Cruz. Five minutes looking at that thing will permanently cure any delusions she may have about being able to "see" level. - lol
All jokes aside, if you have to use tools to determine whether something is right or wrong, it's right enough.
Your wife's eye is a different story though. It needs to be satisfied and it might not mean that the house frame isn't level or plumb. There is some possibility that the orignal frame was out of kilter and the carpenters installed the siding and other trim level. When you leveled the house, you might have un-leveled the siding which would give you the illusion that the house is leaning.
You've encountered one of the most difficult decisions that remodelers make: make it plumb and level or make it LOOK like it's plumb and level or some compromise in between.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You've encountered one of the most difficult decisions that remodelers make: make it plumb and level or make it LOOK like it's plumb and level or some compromise in between.
Yep that's going to be tough. When I went around to the interior walls with the 4' level last night most of them were dead plumb but I don't know if thats just dumb luck or not...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
"When I went around to the interior walls with the 4' level last night most of them were dead plumb "Have you ever checked that four footer?
Do you know how?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well, now that we've all snorked coffee all over our keyboards with Willet's wit about where a wifey's looking...
and Daniel's working on how to break it to his DW that plumb/level are a task during NEXT phase, for her calibrated eyes...
I gotta go back to your queries Pif: "Have you ever checked that four footer {i.e. 4' level'}? Do you know how?" and admit whilst I do a big breath intake here - that I for one, do NOT know how.
SO: Lesson please? (And TIA to others for being patient during the sidejack)
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia " (Charles Schultz)
Piffin killed his email, so...Put the level on the wall with the bubble centered and draw a line along its edge. Flip the level about its vertical axis end-for-end and align the same surface of the level with the line you drew. The bubble should still be centered. If it isn't, the level...ain't.
huh?I didn't kill my email - just the auto notifications.
I been off the PC plowing snow all day tho.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yep, just joshing about your fiddling with the buttons and knocking yourself to Cyber Kingdom Come.I've been watching television today while laboring on a Christmas present...snow/wind all ovah except here! I used to ride along when my Dad plowed snow...always a little edge to it that sharpened the sense in a pleasant frontierish manner. I decided to skip sleeping last night...got to enjoy the most glorious sunrise instead. I just might reconsider the A.M. part of the day if that's what it can be like.
Find an apparently level surface. Lay the level on the surface. Shim up one end with whatever it takes (pennies, business cards, bricks) to make the bubble go dead center. Now, leaving the shims undisturbed lift the level up and turn it 180 degrees so that the north end is now pointing south, returning it carefully to the shims. (DO NOT turn the level over at the same time.) The bubble should still read dead center.NOW you can turn the level over top to bottom. The bubble should STILL be dead center.Once you've done this on a horizontal surface, repeat the same procedure on a vertical surface (though obviously you need to be more creative with the shims). Be sure to check both bubbles.(In a store, when buying a level, the thing to do is find two levels that agree with each other when placed against each other, then flip one of them around and see if they still agree. If so then both of them are good.)
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
whoop I've only done the level check on a horizontal surface dang hope I haven't been screwing myself.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
So whatcha gonna do???Suppose they set the house down, floors, etc are level within tolerances, but DW (and you, and neighbors) think the house appears skewed to the left. I'm thinking you have to go with how it looks from the street. Curb appeal vs level floors, if you had to compromise, which way would you go?
Like I wrote earlier, not enough money in the world.I feel sorry for anyone that has to work with this guy.
I think you misinterpret our joshing about Madcubedscientist. He and his wife and their troupe of stalwart friends are doing some terrific work and we're all pulling for him big-time. He's got a small fortune riding on getting his house back down on a good foundation in one piece, after being held up by the building department for months, so he's just a little antsy. Jeff Buck's intimation that Daniel was preparing to sue was low, even by the special standard Jeff Buck pronouncements fall under.Here...there's a score line...you can share it with Daniel. http://realonomics.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/chill-pill.jpg
Yeah, I've read his threads. They mostly deal with who is liable for what. Between asking how much he liability he can squeeze out of his contractor he shows how very little he understands the process. You'd think he'd be a little wiser considering it's his second restoration.
Sorry, he is the type of personality I run from. I know there are contractors reading this that know exactly what I'm talking about. He's the guy that calls you Sun morning asking about some insignificant detail that won't be a concern for 5 months. Then calls back Sunday evening because he talked to some guy that was walking down the street that was a carpenter back in college and he said...Jesus, the guy is concerned that his house isn't perfectly level while sitting up on cribbing. And he went around with a 4' level to check!!
Holy god I feel sorry for Alameda Structural.I'm not pulling for him. If he asked pertinent questions maybe. But he acts as though everything should be perfect and if it isn't who, besides himself(who most certainly isn't a GC despite letting out portions of the job to separate contractors), will be liable and pay for his ignorance.
> Jesus, the guy is concerned that his house isn't perfectly level while sitting up on cribbing.No, his wife is concerned, and concerned wives tend to create nervous husbands.Re being concerned about liability, I'd be too if someone had my house up on blocks. If you have no concept of who has legal/financial responsibility in such cases you're setting yourself up for major troubles.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I guess. But I've seen his picture and read his blog and posts. Maybe he should hire an attorney to counsel him on these matters like the rest of us. I'd run from any project involving him.
Daniel got hammered pretty well about the cribbing bit, me included, and no doubt learned a little about construction in the process. The guys who set my house thought i was a little anal, too, but they cared that i cared, even if i was working to closer tolerances than they thought necessary. You aren't pulling for a guy who blind-reaches into joist bays to extract dead rats and decorates the contractor porta-potty? Geez, don't you have a funeral to attend or something?
Don't flies hover around ....er..nevermind. (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"People that never get carried away should be"
REF's been registered for a month, and the majority of his posts are attacks. Another Doright incarnation, i'm guessing.
I'm no incarnation of anyone. I just don't like jackasses like this guy and am not afraid to say so.
The majority of my posts offer advice. You just notice the ones where I'm not so nice.
I have quite a few email expressing gratitude from this sit thankyouverymuch.
I looked up your 152 posts and read them before i posted; they're still open in another tab. I'm way too insecure to be wrong. You get quite a few emails from this site expressing gratitude? Um...those are called 'email notifications'. I get a lot of them, too, but you shouldn't let it go to yer haid.
Yeah, I think I understand the difference between a notification and someone telling me how much time I saved them.Thanks for playing.
Actually that's just one thread that I started because I was uncomfortable taking on the liability of the GC while paying someone else to do the actual work of the GC.
Maybe you could do a search of my posts and see the ones where I am talking about things I have experience like ipe decks with hidden fasteners, and tankless water heaters.
You, like Mr. Buck, seem to enjoy assuming the worst about people. In fact I don't talk to the GC everyday we have a standing appt. every friday for half an hour where we discuss what happened last week, what's gonna happen next week and if there are any questions-concerns. In the morning I say hello to the foreman on my way to work and he fills me in on anything important that he thinks needs my input.
I don't think everything should be perfect but I do think both parties should abide by the terms of the contract they both signed and agreed too whether or not you think the terms are reasonable.
I was going to tell you to bite me but splintee is handling you just fine.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Hope this comes though. I drew it for another poster here awhile back.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Heyyyyyyyyyyyyy..thats an old wood Stanley! I have one just like it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"People that never get carried away should be"
Well, due to a storm here, I have been off-line all day, and out plowing/shoveling anyhow, so you may already have an answer,but here it is from me.My experience with going into stores and looking at levels on the rack is that only about a third of the ones in stock actually have all three (or more) bubbles reading right, so it definitely is something to be careful of.But it is easy to check right then and there.Start with level ( that would be the horizontal plane for pure virginal neophytes. I wonder - since virgins are unfamiliar with the horizontal, maybe I should be starting with the plumb/vertical plane...)
Find a clean solid surface like a countertop. It does NOT need to be perfectly level, but close is good, and flat is better. Place the level on it, noting to your self just where it sits so you can hit the same spot three more times. Now note how the bubble reads. If right dead on, great, if off this way or that way however much, just note it in your mind's eye.Now roll the level over and check again. Is the bubble reading the same? Then swap end for end. Is it still reading the same? Tjhen roll it over and compare again.Only if ALL four readings are the same on the same surface is the tool reading correctly. If all say the counter is level or all say it is 1/8" high at that end...whatever. All four readings must agree.Now you are going to do the same thing for your plumb reading on a wall or door jamb or something vertical that will not be moving while you play. Except most four footers have more bubbles for plumb than for level, so you will be checking and comparing eight readings instead of four.Ignore the snickers of the sales clerk who doesn't realize that you know more than he does when he makes jokes about the goofy girl muttering at all his levels for being so whacky.There are only afew good brand names to start with when you are looking for new, but check what you have at home and at Mom's first.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks Pif- yes, I already had an answer from Splintie, and DanH, and a drawing from DoveTail, but I appreciated the "completeness" of your response... B'sides, you nailed me good when you wrote:
Ignore the snickers of the sales clerk who doesn't realize that you know more than he does when he makes jokes about the goofy girl muttering at all his levels for being so whacky.
(How'd you know I mutter to myself?!?!? yikes...must be some rite of aging...!?!)
There are only afew good brand names to start with when you are looking for new, but check what you have at home and at Mom's first.
DANG you! now you're just scaring me with that reception your tin foil hat gets
;-)
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia " (Charles Schultz)
Have you ever checked that four footer?Do you know how?
Not in the last couple of months but I check the level by setting it on a table and shimming up the low end with sheets of paper till its level. Then I flip the level around and if it reads the same then its good?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I have an old piece of door frame material, very well seasoned so it doesn't move at all, that is perfectly straight and perfectly parallel on its edges, cut to fit just inside a doorway. I'm too cheap to buy a 6' level for the number of doors i hang, so i put this on a frame and put my shorter 4' level against it to extend the effective reach of my level. It's also a good check to make sure my jamb isn't bowed.You can make the same kind of straightedge as long as you want, as long as its beefy enough not to deflect. Put feet on it at each end to allow the level to straddle any irregularities in your siding, then use it to measure the plumbness of your walls from plate to plate. The convenient thing is that you can read the bubble from anywhere along the straightedge that you place the level.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Not to hyjack but, which Bob are you referring to and what kind of test is it?
If it is a health issue, please send on my best wishes.
Can you give some info?
"It will cost you less to pay O'Neill to do nothing, than do something." ~ Roger Green
RIP, H.D. O'Neill (0-Knee)
Yes, I can give some info. The original test, which he failed is somewhere in the Tavern. I wouldn't consider it a health issue. It's more of a communication issue. I'm trying to determine if Bob and I have a common basis for conversation. Kind of like a language thing....I'm from Mars, he's from Venus. I need the results of this test so I can hire an interpreter. He hasn't said anything to me since I've posed the test questions so there's no need to re-run the test. Tests are a beautiful tool! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Well, there are so many Bobs here (lol...as well as Jims), and I just wondered if someone's health was failing...that was my main concern.
So thanks for letting me know.
"It will cost you less to pay O'Neill to do nothing, than do something." ~ Roger Green
RIP, H.D. O'Neill (0-Knee)
AMEN, thats exactly what I was thinking, but didnt want to be a trouble maker..
Stick around and agree with me a few times and you'll be labeled. I don't mind the heat though because in the real world no one's bitchin about what I do. I get paid and I get compliments. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The easiest way is with a reservoir type water level and 100' of 1/4" polyurethane hose. With this setup it's easy to mark within a 1/16" (1/32" if you're careful) all around the house, inside or out. For looking at inside floors I'll usually mark the walls at 4' every so often. Then setting a 4' level on end will quickly show how far out the floor is. Holding the tube on the end of the level can show how far floors dip. Quick, easy.
A 1 liter nalgene bottle with a quick connect fitting on the bottom makes using air hose easy and hanging from a quick clamp makes adjustment a breeze.
Two air hoses can work, but the more ridgid clear polyurethane hose works better since it keeps it's shape better. A clear end to aid in marking the level is important with more exact measurements.
The key to avoiding measurement mistakes is to return to the first mark after everything else is marked to make sure the level hasn't changed due to a change in hose capacity (warmer soft hose will grow) or kink, or air bubble. If the level has changed simply backtrack until the correct mark starts showing up again. (always check the first mark last).
As for plumb walls, you'll want to get a longer level. The best is an extendable Stabila so you can go plate to plate. It's hard to spend 2 bills on a level, but it's worth it if you plan on doing more remodeling, especially if you have high ceilings.
"within 1/4"" probably means +/- 1/4", or 1/2" deviation from lowest to highest, which isn't great, but it's common.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I believe the contractor has a nice water level that they are going to bring tomorrow to help ease my wife's fears.
Actually if they could get it to 1/2" total I would be fine with that since we started out more like 3" total...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
First 1/4" of of relative level equates to 1/2"
(1/4" -) 0 (1/4"+)
Second if the house hasn't been set back down on its foundation then you are a week or two ahead of your selves.
I don't know how to break #3 to your wife or you but rarely is an old house lifted and set back down that has only 1/4" variance. (1/8" =/-)
You and your wife need to get a grip on reality. Heck , rare that even brand news houses come out at that , never mind something 100 years old.
The house was probably down 3" in the back corner compared to the rest of the house. I told the contractor that leveling the floors on the main level was very important to us but I didn't know what was reasonable to expect. The contractor came up with that spec. I was actually pretty suprised when I saw it but I wasnt' going to say thats too tight of a tolerance make it bigger! Its in the contract we agreed on so shouldn't I hold him to it?
Right now I'd guess that the difference between the highest and lowest spot is 1" but I'll have to go at it with a water level.
Actually the contracator has a water level and I believe they are bringing it tomorrow to meeting to asuage my wifes fears.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I must have missed the fact the house was actually set back down on the new foundation. Last I read it was still up in the air. As for holding him to the contract, I personally would use that # as a target. It will all depend on what things look like in terms of construction. A key question is Has he said he is done and it's as level as he can make it?
Sounds as if the guy is willing to look at the problem anyway . How did you determine the 3"?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Just checked the blog. Is the house still in the air on cribbing? And by chance is this the back corner you are referring to ? "This coming week there will be some leveling done, so we expect to get some cracking. The back 4 feet of the house seems to have started life as a multi-level porch, which always had a slope. There's been further settling, which they're going to bring as close to level with the rest of the house as possible.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Yes house is still in the air on the steel beams and cribbing. Actually the house has a bit of a hump running where the beams are which the contractor says will go away when its set down on its new foundation.
Yes it is the back part of the house that was a covered porch at one time. The contractor of course new that when he agreed to the 1/4" spec. He's the expert not me I didn't personally think it was going to be possible but apparently he did.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Then really please tell your wife that the project as it sits in the air on cribbing is not the final resting place nor level that can or will be achieved. It is a 1/2 finished piece of art work and should be judged as such. If that back porch floor was built with a slope then it will be tough to get dead level as it wasn't meant to be that way. I am certain it can be achieved, just not sure at what cost to the plater walls, framing, roof or anything else adjacent to or attached to it. but then the contract calls for the "floor" to be level to within the stated tolerances.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
All that you say makes sense. When then is the correct time to hold the contractor to the terms of the contract? Seems to me that after they set the house down on the new foundation it'll be too late?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I can't believe you're even eyeballing the house sitting on cribs. That's just nonsense. My present house lived on cribs for over a year before we moved it 35 miles, love-tapped a bridge along the way, parked it at a 6% slope for awhile, then cranked it over onto my foundation. The foundation was exactly on a laser lever line all around - i'll take the bow for that one - so the house set down on the plate and that was that, except for one part that had developed a bit of a set while stored on cribs, but relaxed into place over the next few days. I had some 4x6's ready to stick under the center beam. Those had to be fine-tuned with my jacks later because the beam varied a bit in depth, but it's not terribly hard to move portions of a house with a nice, big, fat hydraulic jack if there's something you can't live with. (You need to have a footing under this, of course.) This house was relatively easy compared to my Victorian where the summer beam had actually cracked and dropped 4". If you have a choice between level and plumb if you can't have both, go with level because of plumbing issues and your feet will notice it most. Waste lines aren't going to care how it looks to your eye and you don't want to mess yourself up for proper fall/drainage by tilting the wrong way and running out of joist depth. Things like bookcases sit better level, too.The fellows who set my house down had a manifold system on hydraulic jacks and could lift/shim the house in various combinations that could shift it a 1/4" at a time. I was awfully particular and they were very accommodating to the crazy woman scrambing around with the micrometer so we got it as level and square as humanly possible. People who handle these jobs are pretty impressive. Even if the perimeter needs finetuning after setting, you can lift a portion and set shims betwee the plates before bolting or gusseting them together. Lastly, a water level is OK if you have to go around a bind corner, but a self-leveling laser is a lot faster and less cumbersome, IMO. Mine was one of the best investments in a tool i ever made.
You'll just have to be there inspecting, and having the right tools and knowing how to use them the day he sets it back down.If the foundation walls are within tolerances, and the floor framing is perfect, then the floors above will be right. If there is variance in the floor framing he would place shims as he lowers to make it right.Now you also mentioned that you were applying this standard to the second floor too.
Not possible to get both right except by a marvelously lucky alignment of the stars
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You'll just have to be there inspecting, and having the right tools and knowing how to use them the day he sets it back down.
If the foundation walls are within tolerances, and the floor framing is perfect, then the floors above will be right. If there is variance in the floor framing he would place shims as he lowers to make it right.
Now you also mentioned that you were applying this standard to the second floor too. Not possible to get both right except by a marvelously lucky alignment of the stars
Maybe we are getting mixed up between the spec for the concrete on the first floor and the level of the wood floor on the 2nd floor? Unless what I am calling the second floor you are thinking of as the 1st. I am no applying this standard to the top floor anyways which is what I think you meant.
So the time to lock in the final 'level' of the floors is after the cribing is out and the house is sitting on its new foundation this is what I wanted to know-thanks,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Yes, I think of that bottom portion with concrete walls and partly in the ground as the basement. second floor to me meant that upper level under the roof..Way we do is set it down and while the steel and jacks are still in place but not holding anything up, we check things out and decide where we might want to add shims, then jack that spot back up again. It might go up and down three times in a couple of hours.But the thing is, I have NEVER seen one that ends up perfect, or even withing a quarter inch all around. An inch overall on one like yours would be perfectly acceptable, and half an inch is outstanding. there are decisions to be made as far as where to make the compromises, which is why I suggested you have to be there if you don't trust the judgement of the guys doing it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
" Seems to me that after they set the house down on the new foundation it'll be too late? "
If he picked it up once why couldn't he pick it back up?
Sllllllooooowwwww down.
Let the guy do his job.
Even when it is time to be done - be very careful to pick your battles. You may well end up with your 1/4" - and other problems that you don't even know about.
Keep us posted.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
For goodness sakes, if it's not on the foundation don't measure anything, other than the top of the foundation!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Eyeball it from a distance, standing out on the street, in a back alley, etc. If the corners and wall planes line up with most of the neighbouring homes, and the ridge is not sagged, I would not worry too much about it not being exactly plumb and level.
Do the windows open easily enough? the doors? If yes, that's plenty good enough for an old Victorian.
Like others have suggested, give your wife a new project in the living room....like straightening out that Velvet Elvis you bought at Wall Drugs 25 years ago. ;)
Water level's the way to go. Make your own or buy one -- they're not terribly expensive.
sounds like she's looking at something outta plumb, as opposed to outta level.
any corner boards? a good reference line ... that goes from top to bottom in a fairly straight fashion?
me ... I'd either hang a line out of a top floor window ... or ... get out the ladder and hang it off the top of a corner board.
string line and plumb bob.
set it off a stand-off.
for something like a possible leaning house ... I'd use a scrap of 2x4.
tack that ... set the line off that ...
then measure at the bottom.
if it's 3.5 inches off the reference line ... yer plumb and she's plum nuts.
I'd also suggest working off the side she thinks it's leaning to.
a side note ... I'll bet if the contract ways "within 1/4" ... there's at least one place the guy can show U it's within that quarter.
Jeff
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Plumb bob is a great idea. Its a technology the wife understands and it should be pretty easy to show if the house is leaning one way or the other thanks.
On the 1/4" thing I made it very clear that to me that means the entire 2nd floor has to be in that spec not just one section of it.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Daniel, I have a Hilti rotarary laser and sensor I could let you use this weekend. In about 20 minutes you will know whats going on. Let me know, no problem.
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Thanks Mike that's good of you to offer. We've got a laser level plus the foundation guy has one plus the water level so we should be okay. Don't know if you've strolled by the house lately but man these guys can work! Its been 8 working days so far and is looks like they are ready to pour the concrete for the foundation walls!
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
"Yes house is still in the air on the steel beams and cribbing. Actually the house has a bit of a hump running where the beams are""looks like they are ready to pour the concrete for the foundation walls!"GOOD LORD MAN!!! this is nowhere near a point where you can be thinking about whether the house is level yet.Imagine yourself watching a guy change your tire because it is flat.
He has jacked the car up and started to loosen one lug nut.You are standing there tapping your foot and saying, "The tire is still flat!"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You are standing there tapping your foot and saying, "The tire is still flat!"
I think that pretty well sums it up!
Way to early to worry about plumb and level.
Doug
Well I'm asking when is the right time in this process to apply the standard?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
After he sits it back down. Any other time is just premature.
Who cares if the house is sitting at a some angle now, not going to have anything to do with how it sits on the foundation.
I'm restoring a house that is 150 plus years old, I understand old houses, understand that if I wanted perfect floors that I should have built a new house(and believe me, after spending the last few weekends redoing some plumbing with my 6 year old(the lessons, and words, he's going to learn!) I'm starting to wonder if I should have built new!)you have to accept some variation in the floors/walls otherwise it will drive you nuts. I know, I know, the guy said it will be within 1/4". I'm not sure whether or not that's achievable but give the guy a chance to do his job, your going to drive him, and yourself, NUTS.
I do know that if I was going to level the floors of my house, or any for that matter, the process is a very slow one, using jacks and placed in the appropriate places you can only give them a little turn every 6 months or so. This will insure that the walls don't crack all over the place. It took the house 100 years to settle to where it is, its not going back in 6 weeks! I assume that they are not going to do this type of leveling but if they do sit it down and its completely level, or at least to you and your wife's liking, then there will be some cracking in the walls and so forth, that's Ok I assume? Cant move something back in a few weeks that took 100 years to get that way.
You say that it will be to late once the house is set back down, well its not going to matter if its sitting perfectly level/plumb right now and when sat down all of a sudden its out of wack! Let him do his job, I assume this isn't the first one he's done?
I understand your concerns, this is a lot of money, its understandable to be worried, try to enjoy the ride a little though, trust in the guys that you hired. When there is a break in the action ask the contractor some questions that will help you better understand the whole thing. Maybe that'll put you at some ease.
Relax, its just a house, there'll be plenty more where that came from!
Doug
Nope this is our last house we plan to age in place here hopefully so I want to make sure to get it right the first time.
The top and bottom of the house is already gutted and the rest is 1/4" drywall over plaster that we are planning on removing anyways so cracks don't matter to us.
Yep understand that its an old house and it won't be perfectly level but one point in the house was out 3" in 10' and that's not going to work for us.
I'm torn about the specs in the contract. Why would the contractor with 20 yrs experience doing just this to old houses put that spec in if he didn't think he could do it? Than am I an a-hole for wanting him to abide by the terms of the contract?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Why would the contractor with 20 yrs experience doing just this to old houses put that spec in if he didn't think he could do it?
Daniel, they guy probably put it in there because he can do it! Unless the guy is a duffus I doubt he would include that clause haphazardly.
Its good to be concerned, but you may worrying about something that isn't a concern just yet.
Doug
Remember this: Your wife is right. Talk to her. She will explain what about the house does not look plumb.
If you suspect that she has a perception problem, lean a level against the wall and ask her for her opinion. If you cannot definitively determine that she has a vision problem, dig further and find out exactly what does not seem right about the house.
If she does have a vision problem, find out exactly what she wants you to change to make it right.
Trust me on this!
Put a 1/8" shim in her right shoe.
that works till she turns around...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
She won't be looking at the house then, will she?
Damn!!
I went right on to the next thread before that one sunk in. ROFLMO
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"
She won't be looking at the house then, will she?
ROFLMAO
That was funny! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I wouldn't try to check an eight foot wall with a four foot level. Thinking of you trying to check an entire house with one is entertaining. if you feel the neeed to check on the contractors work, you need to hire a surveyor to sight this, but deciding which points would be used for reference should have been decided and named in your contract if you want to be that way.
The way you say the contract is worded means nothing unless it also defines "relative level".
Relative to what!?
An old house like that probably never was level within a quarter inch to begin with. Something like yours would make me happy to get within 3/4", though within each room, it might be possible to get within 1/4", depending whether the floor joists are overspanned or not.
So many of the old girls have undersized joists and that is normally not a part of the foundation guys job, so I would have to presume that the leveling is intended to be the rim joist and main bearing points.
The one I jacked and leveled and replaced foundation for last year had some irregularities between flooring thicknesses also. We shot our laser readings to bottom of the subfloor and got almost right on, but there were then different reading on the finish floor above, probably because the original had been shimmed somewhat when installing it, and subsequent sandings refinishing the floor changed things further.
There was one corner that never did settle down, in spite of letting it stand free with not support going back 14' both ways and leaving it for three months.
You are dealing with an old house and trying to make it better than new, it sounds like with such high standards.
Good luck with that.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I read through most of the posts, but don't remember reading anything in your contract regarding plumb? Was there something there? The reason I'm mentioning this is....what if he gets the foundation dead on (or within your 1/4" to relative level), and yet the house is still "listing to the left"?
It's very possible he gets the foundation and 1st floor level, and yet the house is not plumb.
Who's to say the house was not already racked (meaning the walls are out of square and leaning) one way or the other?
Again, I didn't see anything in the posts regarding this, but is there anything in your contract regarding plumb, or just level?
Finally, as countless others have mentioned, trying to check if the foundation and 1st floor are level before the guy has even poured foundation walls??? Don't tell me you and your wife are looking over his shoulder every minute of the day while he's trying to work?
Wow thats a good point there is nothing in the contract regarding plumb just the level spec for the slab and the 2nd floor...hmmm
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
if the original foundation was poured with out the use of a laser[1900's!] and was built 1" out of level,then the builder would of laid the floor and plumbed the walls to make everything as good as possible. right?
now you come in and make a perfectly level foundation and sit the house down on it,it is sitting perfectly level but now the walls will be out of plumb and there is nothing to do about it,unless you want to cut all the plaster and siding,sheeting etc. and start cabling it straight.....
not to sound negative but your on a old house that when brand new wasn't probably perfect and now you changing its sitting place. i woudn't worry about 1/4" i would go for it looking right and go from there.larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Okay all, I've apparently unintentionally hit a nerve with some of y'all pro's.
I come here to learn from the best which I think y'all are (is my nose brown yet). My wife and I can not unfortunately afford to hire out most of the work required in restoring an old house. So helping us isn't even taking money away from a fellow contractor its just helping a quality job happen.
I hope that when I have to hire out a job to a pro that I do all the right things and get a real, quality pro. But you know the really good con-men will convince you you are getting a top notch job for a great deal when in reality your being over-charged for a hack job.
I believe that the company I hired to do the foundation job is a quality one but as they say...trust but verify. When I come here to ask questions about something that another pro is doing for me that's all I'm doing. I'm not trying to jam anybody up or sue anybody its just the trust but verify thing.
Now lets all hold hands and sing kuumbaya ( I have no idea how to spell that word)
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
great ...
now I feel bad.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Don't know why I come here and read these threads.
Friggin' sometimes this stuff just makes me giggle.
be Roar! snorK* heehee haha hoho heh heh
""Friggin' sometimes this stuff just makes me giggle."" Dat be the reason alright.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
now I feel bad.
Well its about G-damned time you insensitive basterd. What, you get court ordered to take some sensitivity training?
The wife be seeing a new Jeff Buck, Hal-la-lou-ya!
Doug
ahh ... that court ordered stuff never works out ...
don't ask.
anyhoo ... she'd miss the old me soon enough anyways ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
That is more or less the way I read you. You are more involved than most HOs, but most of the ones who do little or nothing get screwed at least once in their lives.I think the confliuct you are seeing here sometimes is a matter of personality issues. There are some HOs with whom I 'click' very well, and others who I generally can spot half a mile away that I avoid doing business with.
that redeyed fly is saying that in comparison to his model customer, you are the kind he likes to avoid. Others here mioght justy love to do business with you.For me, I would put you into the category of customer that I need to price higher, because I will need to spend a lot of time explaining and educating you. It is possible I might get the impression in person that you and your wife think - because of all the research you do here and elsewhere - that you know more than I do and are capable of inspecting my work. depending on your attitude in person I might find you hard to work with.In general, I expect my customers to check me out thoroughly before signing the contract, then to stay out of my way until the job is done. Trying to inspect halfway makes a lot of thing LOOK like sins, that are merely part of the process.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
i didn't realize this house wasn't set yet ... and the foundation wasn't even poured!
did U start complaining that the house was crooked as it drove down the road?
and ... was the question about being a GC part all part of the now too obvious scheme to sue over a not yet crooked house?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
>>>and ... was the question about being a GC part all part of the now too obvious scheme to sue over a not yet crooked house?
Jeff
You know I wondered that myself. I HOPE that's not the case, but when I read his posting regarding
....When then is the correct time to hold the contractor to the terms of the contract? Seems to me that after they set the house down on the new foundation it'll be too late?....
I started wondering that myself. I really hope that's not the case, but never know in this day and age.
I think Daniel has a habit of asking controversial questions. Ones that seem out of line to contractor types but may seem perfectly logical to homeowners when dealing with the huge investment of their homes.
I have seen the house in question and followed his threads. This is not a simple lift up replace and set down situation. It is a three story 100 year old house that is being saved by the poster and his concerns are probably justified IMHO. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
What are you wondering about exactly? Are you wondering if I'm trying to squeeze y'all for info so I can screw over-sue one of your brothers in tools?
I have never ever said a damn thing about sueing anybody I don't know where Jeff comes up with this ####.
Obviously the time to check the house for level is not when its still up in the air on the cribbing. I would like guidance to know when is the appropriate time to check this.
If y'all are upset cause I want to hold a contractor to a clause in the contract that he wrote how is that a problem?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I'm not saying you're trying to screw over anyone.When (in order), your comments go along the lines of...1)Okay so our house has been raised and leveled. The wife is pretty darn convinced that the whole shebang is listing to the left. (in post # 1)2) On the 1/4" thing I made it very clear that to me that means the entire 2nd floor has to be in that spec not just one section of it. (in post # 26)3)When then is the correct time to hold the contractor to the terms of the contract? Seems to me that after they set the house down on the new foundation it'll be too late? (in post # 34)So let's see...1) The house has NOT been lowered and leveled (yet).
2) It is very possible the foundation, floor #1 and floor #2 will not ALL be level w/i 1/4" unless all 3 are listed in your contract.
3)When you start using terms like "holding someone to the terms of a contract"...then you bring upon yourself the curiosity of others regarding if you are thinking litigation, etc. You said you thought it would be too late to "hold him to the terms of the contract" AFTER he lowers it onto the foundation??? Can you explain how you expect to check the finished product for level when it's suspended in the air, a couple feet above the foundation??THAT is putting the cart before the horse....and YOU KNOW THAT!! It's just common sense.
Edited 12/17/2007 3:19 am ET by jja28
Right, so when is the correct time to check the house for level as specified in the contract?
Okay so me saying 'hold the contractor' to the terms in the contract raised some red flag apparently. What I am trying to say is when is the logical time in the progression of this project that, that spec should be checked?
2) It is very possible the foundation, floor #1 and floor #2 will not ALL be level w/i 1/4" unless all 3 are listed in your contract.
In the contract there is a spec for the foundation, the slab and the first floor level that's all I want to check because that's what we both agreed on.
So to re-iterate I don't want to sue anyone the comment I made about my wife thinking the house was out of level was more to illustrate the point I was asking about which was how would you convince someone otherwise?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
The correct time to INSURE level is when the forms get stripped. Shoot the top of the wall then. I'm not sure if you're planning to put on a plate other than the one attached to your house now, but if the top of the wall isn't level, they can level it with another plate shimmed to perfection.I've told you about my friend in San Jose who jacked his house to add a floor under it, much as you are doing. I helped with the last couple rows of H-block on the foundation one time i was visiting. He's about as careful as i am, so by the time we were finished, the last row was 3/16" plus/minus. Their house was on cribs for a l-o-n-g time while he dug out 99 c.y. of dirt himself and put the house up on, IIRC, 17 cribs. I stayed with them and even at 17 cribs, the top floor vibrated when someone got up to turn the stove off.Here are some inspirational photos for you. The first one, everything you see under the blue-painted windows was added. I think he lifted and dug down an equal amount. The blocks along the base were stabilized adobe bricks he made using dirt removed from the basement; i got in on that project, as well. He likened them to shoes peeking out under a lady's petticoat! The back view is all salvaged parts that he pulled together from bits of different houses. The last shot shows the progress a little better. Pretty, isn't it?
You got any shots of that monster finished? Thats is about as big a house as one would need I suspect.
I dont know that I'd want the job of painting it but I bet it looks killer finished.
Doug
I haven't been down there to do shows in a long time, so i'll bet it's changed a lot since i took those pictures. I'll ask Matt when we chat this Christmas if he has recent pix. He doesn't do computers - still hand-drafts his plans - so we're actually not in as good communication as when we wrote letters and exchanged pix all the time. I'll work on it...
Nice place there.That method is basic, but does not INsure or even ensure that the place will always end up level.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
http://www.yourdictionary.com/grammar-rules/Insure_vs_Ensure.htmlWell, i'm stumped for a better way than to level the perimeter, plunk the house down and then level the beam(s). I'm working with the assumption that level is preferable to plumb, if that's where you're going. I can't think of any reason the finished floor shouldn't be parallel/planar with the bottom plate they attached to the house...hmmm....I've been involved in just three more of these than Daniel, so i'm here to learn, too. What's on your mind instead?
Sometimes when lifting it, the sill, bottom plate, and stud connections tend to relax from one another. I have seen 3/8" but would not be surprised if you get 1/2" or more sometimes. Then when the load comes back down on it all, it settles in differently. It is only if everything is tight to itself and the framing used originally was all of the same size that you can measure from top of a level foundation wall to the bottom of the sills or rim joist to know how it will land. Otherwise you have to do a lot of compensatory math, stir in a smidgen of judgement and hope.Or just set it down, check, and pick it back up to shim again.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm trying to imagine a house supported so badly that the joists bow enough to pull away from the floor above in the space of a week or three it's going to take. In any case, to start shimming to fix any developed warp in place seems like asking for trouble with windows/doors racking.
~splinter, perplexed
View Image
Just because I love opening this old wound up...
Apparently 'round here' how they level the house is different that what you described in your post.
Here's the leveling procedure as told to me by my contractor...
Here, they actually do the leveling when its up on the cribbing and steel beams. When its 'in the air' they usually rebuild the walls that bear on the foundation and or at least replace the sill plate with a new pressure treated 3by whatever. They don't lift the house anymore than needed to level it and take the weight.
Then they do the foundation formwork and pour the new foundation with the house in place. After a week they pull the cribing and the house is being fully supported by the new foundation walls.
All the contractors I talked to did it this way.
Doing it this way you can't pick the house up and set it back down as you describe right? I'm confused if this is the way its done 'round here when would be the correct time to level it?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
In the east bay I've seen it done both ways. A friend had his raised way up, built the walls and foundation, then set the house down. I had mine shored in place, roughly leveled on one side and built the foundation up to the walls. Not the easiest way, but cheaper than rebuilding all the walls and victorian grand staircase.
By the way, I would wait more than a week to set the weight of the house on fresh concrete. What psi did the structural engineer specify?
Edited 1/8/2008 4:11 pm by sawduster
and ... was the question about being a GC part all part of the now too obvious scheme to sue over a not yet crooked house?
Did you just recently get sued or something? Why are you stuck on this? I'll eat my hat if you can show me a post where I am talking about suing anybody?
Bite Me
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
hee hee, madmadscientist said Bite Me.
He needs another MAD added now..Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"People that never get carried away should be"
Would that be 3x as Mad or Mad cubed?
Has to be cubed..now wheres my lil itty bitty 3 hiding ?
Damm laptop..Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"People that never get carried away should be"
Madmad and posters, the house is leaning. Look at the pic on the blog from December 5, then compare it to the second one on the 15th.
http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
the only difference I can see is how the camera is tilted from one to the other.There is also a different angle to the house so there is no identical frame of reference
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Pics:
Yeah, just like I said, there are two different camera angles/perspectives on the house. no way to reference to know if it is leaning or not.I am not arguing whether or not it is, just saying it is impossible to tell from those photos. Besides, with it up in the air and no foundation under it, it is not important if it is leaning now or not.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You're right, it's not important if it's leaning now. I was comparing it to the roof line of the house in the background.
The portapotty has been moved, but in both pictures it seems to be sitting flat on the sidewalk. It provides a reference.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Yeah, sure, a portapotty always makes a great point of reference....;)The street is a more permanent fixture.
Tell me which way you think water would run in each photo.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
a porta pottie in this weather...
now that is corageous......
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Just got one delivered to new job this week.
The guy said, "You probably wanna rope this down for a week, untill the drifts anchor it in, eh?"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
so what do you do when ya attempt to use and yur cheeks slap shut from cold shock and that's the end of business???
and then you go back inside abd ya warm up and hace to go back out...
what a cycle...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm just not that sensitive. When it's time, it's time! I had food poisoning once camping out at ten thousand feet....oops, is this a hijack?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey, the house is up there by San Francisco,
it doesn't have to be straight.
Well, i caught it. ;^)I spent Halloween night on Castro Street leaned up agaist a store-front, watching the parade with my craft-fair buddies, right after The Big One. Day-um...
Oh man my wife used to live a block off of Castro (before the celebration got out of hand) that was a crazy fun time to be able to go out and see the crowd but then retreat to a clean quiet place with a private bathroom!!
Last year we went I made my own Oogie Boogie costume but made the eye holes too small, got loaded and my friends had to keep guiding me around cause I was almost literally blind drunk!
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer