I got a call from a person recently that had a contractor side there house in vinyl with coils stock trim. Simple job on a large old home.
The work is terrible, gaps, pieces put together poorly, J channel overlapped, siding coming off within 6 months of the work.
The customer (his not mine) said she paid half up front and when he no longer heeded her requests of repairs she refused to pay the other half. He put a lean on her house and now she has to go to court to get the lean off of it. But she has to have a viable figure to present to the judge.
No one else in town would talk to her as they simply didn’t want to follow poor work or get involved in a court action. Both issues I can understand.
But it got me thinking. We always talk about tire kickers and people who aren’t serious about getting the work done. We all hate to have our time wasted. But where do they go? I mean all jobs are different and I won’t quote a job without seeing it so if most of us feel that way, how would someone know the job is beyond their budget till we quote it?
I suppose they could try online or books or something but often the clients knowledge of what they want is so poor that they couldn’t ask a question here and get a price answer anyway, not to mention we all want pictures, measurement, brands etc. before we guesstimate at it. And even then we all know our prices vary. It is nice to think everyone is a great researcher but we know that isn’t true.
I don’t have an answer for it. I just am fishing for thoughts. What do you think? DanT
Replies
This is a case where a qualified contractor will offer their inspection and report services on a fee basis and be expected to appear in court, also as a paid consultant.
I think the best solution for that lady is to hire a professional inspection/appraisal firm.
That certainly is an option. But what I am really asking is where would out customers usually get such information. A home inspector would struggle with setting a true price for say a bath remodel.
I am just saying that on an overall basis there is few avenues for the consumer to get a true cost short of calling us and getting a quote. And if that quote is higher than the budget then the job doesn't happen. And we are irritated that our time was wasted. Am I making any sense here or just barking at the moon in my own head? :-) DanT
I understand the question now. I thought you were asking specifically a question for that lady with the faulty siding. I agree. The only way for homeowners to understand what a project will cost and what is entailed in getting it done is by talking to contractors. The problem is that we contractors don't typically have a good program and we end up putting in far too many free hours and giving away ideas and design without compensation. Does that mean we shouldn't invest no free time? I don't think so but I don't have a big enough name to demand consulation fees for ballparks...and so I plod along. I have learned how to get nice design contracts though. That has worked great. It's a good cash job and something I can do without any "help" from outsiders other than the engnineer stamp when required.
Sorry I wasn't clear. Sometimes the idea is so clear in your own head that you assume (we know what that means) that everyone else is following along.
As I said I don't have an answer but it sure is a big question. I have about talked myself out of quoting that work as I don't think it will ever happen and I may get drug into court for my trouble. I learned that one the hard way a few years ago.
But it still is a tough spot for homeowners who have no idea the costs and are searching but find they simply don't have enough money to cover it in the end. They are deflated and frustrated and we are irritated by another tire kicker. Hmmmmm. DanT
Dan, I have the same problem in my own business, I don't know what a lot of things will cost until I ask my subs, and even then they are often wrong. It can be lack of clear scope, it can be scope creep, it can be a blown estimate by a sub, it can be cost increases between the time a price is given and the time the work is done. There are lots of problems with finding the true costs of construction. Even the most rigorously bid jobs--commercial stuff where 100% of everything is fixed bids before work starts--are subject to changes as missing pieces are identified and subs issue change orders.
My favorite employer ever was a GC who did large complicated ever-changing jobs. He told clients "you'll find out what it costs as soon as I know" which was always when we were done.
Agree with Jim that a competent inspector could price out a siding job. He'd call a couple of GCs for general guidelines, consult some price guides, etc.
well....what you are saying is absolutely true.... customers have no way of knowing what is a good price and what is a bad price
some rely on the "get three bids"
but what does that tell them ?...depends on who the 3 bids are from
if they got three bids from you and two people you consider to be peers.... well, you could average your prices....
but you know , and i know, that they could also get a price for same job , only from a very skilled craftsman... with great design.... and high end appliances /finishes
sometimes i bid....and the customer might tell me someone is 30% less than me on a $40k job....and they are going to include more work.....????
i know my numbers.... so what can i conclude?
the guy is going to take a loss..... the guy is lying......the guy left out some scope....whatever.... i wish them well and move on...
the average dude in this line of work doesn't have a clue what the numbers areMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
She can get a contractor to bid on doing the job right. If that means ripping off the junk and re-doing it, that's OK. Then file a counterclaim. She's entitled to have the job done right for the amount of money in the original bid. If the bid is more than the original, the first joker may actually end up owing HER money. The first guy is only entitled to keep the difference between what he's been paid and what it will cost to finish the job properly.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I think I see what yer saying.
Everyone only wants to take the time to bid a solid lead, but how do we know that lead is solid ... when the HO has nothing to base their "guess" on what a project will cost and "if" they have enough money.
Me ... I ball park lotsa stuff. I always ask with their budget is ... I'd say about half the time people avoid that question.
But ... I can usually offer a nice solid ballpark, set to my own terms.
"average" bath remodel ... I'd include demo of fixtures, floor to sub, open bottom half of wet wall ... new fixtures, mid priced from HD / Lowes ... tile floor.
2 weeks @ $6- $8K.
I also say I've done a bath "make over" for $2K and have done many baths for $20, $30, $40K and up to $80K.
throwing out a coupla real prices and a handful of upper end prices usually get their ballpark budget outta them.
I do tell people I need their budget to narrow our ballpark shopping.
But ... this lets me know if their initial budget was $1,500 , in which case I most likely tell then it's impossible for me to do any work for them.
There are guys around here who will try to put that $6K bath in for their $1,500.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I agree with you.
But I don't think that you will get any good answers.
But I agree with 100%. The HO doesn't want to go through a full design effort to just to find out that the project will cost $125k when all they can afford is $40k. Even if it was a "free" estimate. And the contractor is not happy either. Even if they get a design fee is most likely not at a large profit.
I think the best option is a Design Book with prices. And put on line.
And best be done by a local builders association.
For example it might have kitchen remodels.
One is will include 10x12 addition, much rearrangement of doors and windows, custom cabinets, pro like appliances, exotic stone CT, exotic wood floors. Price $140k-$160.
Another a modest size kitchen makeover. No structural changes, existing cabinets with new doors and fronts. New countertop, basic appliances and new vinyl flooring.
$14-18k
And about 4 others.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
DanT
excellant question!
I've been posting here for years and I've yet to hear about a good answer.. I sold equipment for 17 years and never really heard of a good answer.. that's why I wound up building my own house..
The only estimate I could get the contractor wanted to make a massive profit and make the estimate high in order to protect himself and still come in under the budget..
I wound up doing it myself for less than 1/5 of his number.. (no prior experiance)
"The only estimate I could get the contractor wanted to make a massive profit and make the estimate high in order to protect himself and still come in under the budget.."Considering the point of this thread, how do you know the contractor bid to make a "massive" profit?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Job
Because I know the contractor and HIS WORK.. I've sold him equipment and I saw his fincial statement.
The point of the thread was the difficulty of anyone knowing how much to figure for cost in the construction industry..
Both from the part of a contractor and from the part of the home owner..
Few homeowners want to waste a contractors time if a project is going to be too expensive but how do they know? Few contractors want to run everyplace someone has a whim only to be faced with an unrealistic budget.
Very simply we need to lean a shortcut.. a way for even the uninformed to guess at costs.
Sq.ft. costs would be such a number but I've been here for a long time and never found anyone who asks about those numbers to not be attacked as unrealistic..
I doubt anybody can approach construction as I did with pure blind faith that I could build what I wanted and it wouldn't be too expensive..
That's right! When I began this project I had no budget..I simply knew what I wanted and assumed I could do it.. Money wasn't relevant.
It would have been nice to know that my costs were about $55.00 a sq.ft. Or that 50,000 bd.ft. of hardwood would cost me about $25,000
But those numbers certainly wouldn't apply to everyone would they? Plus they are the result of hindsight.
Considering the cumulated mass of hindsight on this site I should think that some workable number has to be out there.. If Piffin for example should do some research and find that homes built in the last decade cost an average of $167.00 a sq. ft. and some others said they have done an average of $210 and $96 a sq.ft. we are at least beginning to find a workable number.. While it doesn't tell us what a given home would cost it does provide an idea of costs.
Perhaps the sq.ft. number should also come with degree of difficulty numbers such a a single story ranch on a large level building site near a major metro market could be a 1 and a rockly hilly working site with little access and far removed from ready access to materials be a 10
Maybe we could further elaborate on the scale of a givenproject..
A finished house cost of $150,000 would naturally have a differant level of finish than a house costing 20 million..
Finally there should be a rating system for the customers as well. A pleasant well organized customer who simply asks you to do a task and then leaves you alone to accomplish it should be rated as a 1 and the customer from hell should be rated at a 10
"Because I know the contractor and HIS WORK.. I've sold him equipment and I saw his fincial statement."So, you know that the contractor was charging 5 times too much on your project because you saw his financial statement? I don't see how you can determine that.How much did you pay yourself for the years of labor to do your project? Are you taking your free labor into account when you say "I wound up doing it myself for less than 1/5 of his number.. (no prior experiance)"?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon
Pretty straightforward wasn't it?
Yes I don't count my time as costing me anything.. mainly because this is what I want to do not something else like fishing or playing golf.
To me it's sorta like how much do you charge yourself to hang out in a bar with the guys? or how much do you charge yourself to go hunting etc..
With regard my one bid..
I pretty well know what various builders are doing.. I know who are building town houses and which are doing high end custom work etc.. It's how I sold equipment..
I knew that this contractor had spent the last 2 years building a particular home and I saw his income statement for that period.. Not exactly rocket science to figure out his profit.
By the way I have no problem with him making a very nice income doing what he did. Good for him! He clearly knew his market and had a full schedule on the books. (at the time, he's since quit the business and left the area)
I simply knew it was massively more than I would be willing to spend.. Please be aware that even with the massive savings I made I've seldom ever found anyone willing to dupicate my efforts.. Plus I've never found anyone patient enough and disciplined enough to seek out the prices I paid or do the work involved..
Contractors such as yourself shouldn't worry at all about the handful of wackos willing and able to do this themselves..
I'm a bit confused, but maybe I'm just stupid.
You agree that you have no idea how a customer would know what a reasonable price for something is, then you state that you got a quote from a contractor that you 'know' was trying to make a massive profit off of you, then you compare that with doing the work yourself for free, all the while doing a far better job than anyone else could do.
You somehow have determined what would have been a reasonable price for the contractor to bid your job, else you would not have claimed he was trying to make a huge profit.
To get back to the point: In my case, when I needed a cost estimate to finish my house that would stand up in court, my lawyer hired a contractor friend of his, who was well respected by all parties involved, (and was known to me as well) and we paid him for two days of his time to put together a detailed price estimate.
HammerHarry
Did you read it all? I know what sort of profit he made because he submitted a credit app and stated his earnings.. ( I sell equipment) I know basically what most contractors who buy my equipment make and he made massively more than that.. (I doubt few here can earn 1/2 million per house) His application stated he made $250,000 per year and the house he was currantly working on he'd been there 2 years, simple math as I said.
I also said that it was nice that he could make that sort of profit off some but that I wasn't one of those..
As to your solution that's fine, except should everyone who wants a new home or remodel go through that sort expenses prior to building?
The problem is that there is no simple way to even guess what a reasonable budget should be.. Nor is there any national standard of the quality and integrity of workmen..
If those problems could be resolved somehow home remodeling and new home construction could get back to more normal levels..
There is a standard for everything except the average persons biggest purchase.. that forces people to either select what is already built or take a risk on the unknown..
Now Most contractors who have been in the business a reasonable period of time are hard working decent people..
But not all!
Those bad apples are scaring your customers away or preventing you from achieving the things you might be capable of..
You are in effect asking people to trust you with the biggest asset most have..
So, because you got a glimpse of his business, you know are the ultimate authority on how much profit he was going to make on your project?Do you ever think that maybe, after seeing the plans for your house, that he thought to himself "wow- that's quite a place. I think I probably paid too much for my equipment if this guy can afford this kind of place"?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
smart contractors will add in for the "difficult customer" ...
just saying.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
That was my thought. I figured it was an inflated figure on purpose. Considering he would have to justify his existance on a daily basis. DanT
Jon
Like most contractors he probably checked my prices against others. So no I don't think that at all.
I'm sure he felt that since I was more than doubling the number of timbers that need to be worked he felt justified in more than doubling his fee.
But frankly that doesn't matter, even at 1/2 that cost it was massively more than I could afford.
Oh and he didn't see plans, he saw a scale model. (I think I've posted it before)
"Oh and he didn't see plans, he saw a scale model."Maybe that explains part of the problem. I know if I had to bid on a scale model, with no plans available, I would not be cutting it tight to say the least.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon
So you would rather work in 2 demension to estimate than 3 demension? Not because it's more accurite. Remember exact scale model. (even made from white oak)
A scale model also allows you to see relationships better than a drawing does even the best drawing.. allows you to quickly count items and lengths and angles etc..
But that's ok I didn't ask for a bid I asked for an estimate.. rough one at that..
If you knew something would cost you about $300,000 to build why would you tell a Potential customer 2 to2 1/2 million? Even if you only suspected it would be around $300,000. ?
If you asked me about what I'd need to buy a 50 ton crane I wouldn't tell you around 5 million dollars when I know I can sell one for around 650 to 750,000 dollars..
I'd also know where I could get used ones for less and what the bottom price to expect to buy anything decent.. Further I know what my competition sells them for and can define carefully the differances between them and why what I have is superior in their application..
I could break down the options and why they are needed or not needed..
This is from casual conversation just to see if you are a serious buyer or not.. No quotes no bids nothing formal just two people checking each other out to see if there is a potential there or not..
That is exactly what's wrong with the housing industry.
Few contractors realy know how to sell, they've been stumbleing along for decades without any real exposure focused on doing a good job building..
Now for once they need to sell, really sell, and they can't so the whole industry is stopped..
" Now for once they need to sell, really sell, and they can't so the whole industry is stopped.. "
So that's it huh? All the political retoric you spewed for the last couple of months means nothing if only contractors could sell? Wow, what a lightening bolt of information that must have been during all the economic talks. And to think it isn't even a line item in the bail out bill.
They were probably saying "you know if we could spend a few million to teach contractors to sell this housing issue would be null and void". DanT
DanT
One is related to the other but not the cause,, you know that don't you? You sly fox you're jus' tryin' to bait me... <grin>
I really thought it was a dumb statement. Knowing how to sell currently has little to do with the current economic times. It is difficult to sell when you have no market. If that were not true and sales were the only skill set needed I would guess you would have a job currently. No? DanT
DanT
Good point, however the simple truth is most contractors are far better carpenters than salesmen..
I'm constantly amased at the foolish ideas that some have about marketing, selling, and the retail end of their business.
It used to be they defended their methods with, "well I've got a full backlog of projects" or, "been doing this way for x number of years"..
If I allowed myself to be blown off by such an approach I would have never succeeded in the selling game.. The pure fact is that one person in a hundred will remain as a professional salesman for more than 5 years.. that means 99 OUT OF 100 SALESMEN YOU'VE BEEN EXPOSED TO AREN'T VERY GOOD.
"Good point, however the simple truth is most contractors are far better carpenters than salesmen.. "
I don't disagree with you at all on that statement. I believe that if we as a group were better at business and sales we wouldn't, as a rule, complain so much about how little we make. But as I said, that is not the issue for the current housing market. DanT
"Good point, however the simple truth is most contractors are far better carpenters than salesmen..
I'm constantly amased at the foolish ideas that some have about marketing, selling, and the retail end of their business."
says the out of work sales master.
how's long's it been ... think I just read over a year?
some sales guru ... can't even sell yourself.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"So you would rather work in 2 demension to estimate than 3 demension? Not because it's more accurite. Remember exact scale model. (even made from white oak)"
Yes. That is typically how construction works. Scale models are for the perspective of people who cannot visualize a 3d representation of a 2d drawing. Plans are what people, including the contractor you received an estimate from, build from.
" A scale model also allows you to see relationships better than a drawing does even the best drawing.. allows you to quickly count items and lengths and angles etc.."
What is this, ask Dr. Phil? Relationships (of the building sort) are important, but plans are what really convey the details.
"But that's ok I didn't ask for a bid I asked for an estimate.. rough one at that.."
So the "rough" estimate you received is the basis for you claiming that the building industry does not know how to sell?
" If you knew something would cost you about $300,000 to build why would you tell a Potential customer 2 to2 1/2 million? Even if you only suspected it would be around $300,000. ?"
Is this a real example from your house? I still question how you can know what the market value of the work on your home is when you, by your own admission, do not attribute any value to your labor.
We all know you've spent many hours, using sawmill wood and free rental equipment. Working on your own home means not paying insurance, professional fees (accountant, attorney, etc.), porta-john costs, and many other overhead items that any business will incur. Yet you seem to know exactly how much the contractor should have charged.
"That is exactly what's wrong with the housing industry.
Few contractors realy know how to sell, they've been stumbleing along for decades without any real exposure focused on doing a good job building..
Now for once they need to sell, really sell, and they can't so the whole industry is stopped.. "
I see. The building industry, almost as a whole, can't sell. That's interesting- how's your job going these days?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon
NO scale model are for people who want to ensure that perspectives are correct and achieve the goals you wanted..
I've a friend who makes a extremely comfortable living being a detail draftsman. That is he does drawing on a set of plans for where every single nut and bolt will go on a stair or other complex bit of iron work.. so the iron workers can build it in the shop and have it fit perfectly when it gets to the site.
Fabricating shops across the country use him. He has much more work lined up than he and his son can ever do.
When he looked at my model he wished he could do that because it would eliminate 90% of the time he spends calling to get details confirmed and measurements checked when the plans from the architect don't match the site plans..
As much time as I spent making that model he claims it would take him nearly that long to draw. (he's paid well for that time too)
You don't know how to sell. You may be an excellant carpenter or fabricator, you may be able to do a fine job of managing your office or your work crew.. You may have excellant estimating skills and able to control a budget (either time or money) you might be the best at interpersonal skills and able to work with the most difficult of clients to achieve greatness.
You may be a great lover and a wonderful dad..
But based on what you've written over the years you sure can't sell.
Finally at no time did I ever say he should have charged a fixed number so it's not possible to know exactly anything.. My comments have all been along the line of massively too much..
I used my numbers only as a comparison..
I also pointed out that even if his numbers were 1/2 of what he used it was too much..
I also showed what sort of income he was currantly getting. Few here will claim that they can earn 1/2 million to build a house.. that's not the house cost 1/2 million.. that he put in his bank account 1/2 million dollars to spend as he saw fit.. His money!
profit!
That's fine for those who can pay for those services at that rate.. good for him..
But I couldn't have begun to think about that possiblity..
"I see. The building industry, almost as a whole, can't sell. That's interesting- how's your job going these days?"Jon, he is right about the building industry as a whole not being good at selling. The reality is that there are so few skilled sellers though, that most contractors are competing on an equal basis in the selling department. I just had a client tell me last week that the reason we got the job was my salesgal. She really knows how to connect. She works hard at it though.
" So you would rather work in 2 demension to estimate than 3 demension? Not because it's more accurite. Remember exact scale model. (even made from white oak) "
that alone would quadruple the "difficult customer" price!
seriously.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"HammerHarry
Did you read it all? I know what sort of profit he made because he submitted a credit app and stated his earnings.. ( I sell equipment) I know basically what most contractors who buy my equipment make and he made massively more than that.. (I doubt few here can earn 1/2 million per house) His application stated he made $250,000 per year and the house he was currantly working on he'd been there 2 years, simple math as I said.
I also said that it was nice that he could make that sort of profit off some but that I wasn't one of those..
As to your solution that's fine, except should everyone who wants a new home or remodel go through that sort expenses prior to building? "
I understand how deliberately obtuse you can be, but I'll point out two things: his financial statement doesn't tell you anything about what he expected to make on YOUR house, unless he had already built your house and you'd paid him.
Second, I don't know why you're bringing up new construction, the original point of this thread, and my personal experience, were about legal issues after a job went bad.
HammerHarry
Have you ever filled out a credit application? from the sound of your question I doubt it.. However I 'll assume your question was legitimate so I'll answer it.
I have to know what sort of work people in home construction do. It's how I made my living. I knew for example that he'd worked two years on the house in question.. I also was pretty familar with his track record..
There are few enough timberframers in my state. Even fewer that actually build the timberframe themselves. (most buy the frames and assemble them or work for the frame builders who sell them)
I know for example the sort of income he earns (from his credit application).. That gives me a good idea of what his income would be..
As to your wanting to limit the scope of this. I felt you'd recieved credable answers and thought it could warrant a broader perspective in order to give a deeper understanding of the complexities involved..
If you ask a surgeon what' needs to be done I'm sure his answer will be surgary. If you ask a dentist his answer will involve the teeth, etc..
In your case you were getting contractors answers and not from the customer's perspective..
'If you have to go to court, you've lost already.. finding a workable credible solution involves understanding issues from all perspectives.
"Have you ever filled out a credit application? from the sound of your question I doubt it.. However I 'll assume your question was legitimate so I'll answer it."
Frenchy, I've filled out many credit apps, and reviewed quite a few, too. I'm still in business, doing million dollar jobs selling capital equipment all over the Western Hemisphere. I know how to read income statements, and I know how to rate customer's credit. The number of times we've had to write off bad credit can be counted on two hands, and that's over 20 years.
I also know how to rate, hire, and fire salesmen.
I do, however, enjoy your answers, because, no matter what the field under discussion is, you're like Carly Simon: Nobody Does It Better....
no one knows but Frenchy.
he's always got the inside hand ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
In any given geographical area, there will be an average ('mean') cost to do a certain type and amount of work. However, to determine what that mean is with any degree of accuracy requires getting the numbers from a large amount of (satisfactorily) completed jobs done by as many different contractors as possible. High-end custom builders right down the scale to Bubba and Son. And for a small rural area we're talking hundreds of similar jobs from scores of contractors; much more for a large metro market. And the changing costs of labour and materials over time would also have to be factored in, statistical regression calculations done, yadda-yadda & etc., etc., etc.
That kind of statistical anaylsis would provide a good answer to your question...but that kind of statistical analysis would cost a lot of money to perform, and nobody in the business is gonna invest it because there's no easily-perceived upside to it. (Suppose you did and the results proved you were charging 'too much' or 'too little.' Whatcha gonna do now...? Fudge the results? Or change your prices?)
A builders' association? Wouldn't include jobs from any contractor who wasn't a member. A consumer protection association? Wouldn't get real numbers from the contractors. The government? Oh, my achin' head....
Custom work is custom work and the invoice will be a custom job, too. It has to be to be fair to both contractor and homeowner. People have to understand that, but they're always looking for a 'deal' so they won't. The fact is, sometimes even we don't know how much it's really gonna cost. Hell, most times even we don't know how much it's really gonna cost; we're making educated estimates at best...and building in fat factors to protect our a$$e$ when we're obliged to quote fixed prices.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Usually manufacturers have literature for their products which talk about how the material must be installed for the warranty to be good.
I would suggest that the homeowner get some literature from the manufacturer.
I agree that it's frustrating and there is no real way for homeowners to understand construction costs. I always ask for their budget, and usually with a few follow-ups get the actual number, or close to it. I probably work more free hours than I should, but I include a line item budget with the estimate for bigger jobs. That lets them see what things really cost and how they add up. My fee is on there, but considering they're mostly doctors and lawyers, they can plainly see that I'm not tonning it, and have to work pretty hard for my fee.
The kitchen I'm currently finishing went to another contractor originally who was apparently thousands less than me. He likely missed something big, and ended up losing their confidence and the job because of it. At the time we both estimated the job, he asked that if they granted the job to me he would like to know what my price was, so they offered me the same courtesy. I declined and said that I was very comfortable with my number, so it wouldn't benefit me or effect my estimate. I thought it sounded kind of slack and desperate at the time, and I think it's part of the reason why I ended up getting the job. I was confident about my price and time-frame and they eventually trusted that and decided it was worth more money. I'm not saying I'm a good salesman, because I'm not, but I'm straight up and I think people respect that....although it is very dry for me at the moment...