How would you define a “Master Carpenter”?
To me, a master carpenter has the ability to do both rough and finish work, such as complex roof framing and detailed millwork (built-ins, mantels, etc..)
Any other opinions?
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Replies
I call my self a Master Carpenter.
It only means basically that you are earning a living by your own hand. I further believe it means you are ever learning to Master your trade and that course will be never ending.
I was asked once at the local Union hall if I was a MC then did I know...blah blah blah!
My answer was I'm not a roofer but I know roofing,I'm not a drywaller but I know drywall,I'm not a concrete finisher but I know concrete and so on and on.
It's tiresome answering questions from fellow carpenters who do not no what defines being a carpenter.
Agreed nowadays one needs to know more than that and we all do. Carpenters are generally the majority of job supervisors period. Not iron workers not electricians or even plumbers. That is because our craft embraces all others.
But as to being just a Master Carpenter? After my first contract at 17 and the following 38 years of work I am still learning and earning a living by my hand, a Master Carpenter at least.
I think a Master Carpenter is one who knows when to ask for help and not play superman , both physically, and professionally.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Bingo!
And the willingness to give back and help lift up a brothers craft when asked.
Good answer!!! I learn new skills and ideas everyday. I never think I know it all. Thats why I come here to shapen my skills. My design work is pretty dam good- I will say that!!!
Lou C
20 years ago I was able to join the Carpenters Local as a journeyman because when asked if I could build a sawhorse I answered yes.
( I also had a recommending letter from my employer ) Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
As to your direct question.
A lot of what you ask are or can be very specialized crafts. I have a framer that I feel is a true Jedi Master. I can't possibly do what he does as good and fast as he can. But he can't touch the quality of cabinetry work I can do. That does not lessen his abilities or mine.
remember that the definition of Carpenters work runs form concrete forming to sheetrock hanging/finishing. Not sure where I got that, maybe a union description(?) but it includes far more than I've mastered.
and really, what's the value of the title when your reputation and your portfolio of previous work is what gets you the jobs? I guess there's more value to the title in a compnay with employees.
I recall being asked why I didn't use that term on my business card, when I was a young and upcoming builder of custom homes. I feel the same way now as I did then.
Carpentry is a craft which I work at, experiencing quiet moments of unity with wood and the construction process, from time to time. The rewards are simple but profound.
Titles mean little by comparison and may even obscure what's there to be found by those who truly wish for a connection with what's real in all that exists.
<<Carpentry is a craft which I work at, experiencing quiet moments of unity with wood and the construction process, from time to time. The rewards are simple but profound. >>
What a great line.
"A community is like a ship; everyone ought to be prepared to take the helm.” ~Henrik Ibsen
I tell people that I can't write songs, I can't write poetry but if I do my use my skills correctly I can create something that will live long after I am gone.
Just my bid for some sort of immortality.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Interesting. Brings back a discussion I had with my grad school adviser on the best ways to leave something positive behind us -- plant a tree, raise a child, write a book, and build a house. Thanks for reminding me of that.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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but if I do my use my skills correctly I can create something that will live long after I am gone.
Yes. I like the idea of providing shelter for families. It does feel good to know that my work will outlive me and continue to fulfill my simple aims.
Here's a little one that I wrote.
What will be next?
What will be never?
What will stay in our hearts forever?
and build stairs
and concrete formwork
and finish sheetrock
and build furniture
and frame with steel studs
and lay shiongles whether wood or composite
and???????????
Fact is - carpentry breaks down into so many other fields that specialties open side roads.....
Better to be a real master at one of those spoecialties than to spread it out if you want to be called a master.
Had one guy introduce me once as a carpenter who has forgotten more about building than most carpenters will ever know, but I will never call myself a master. Still learning too much
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where ...
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There is one trend that I have noticed during my lifetime that I understand the need for within reason, yet rebel against. That is the move to classify everything and everyone. There seems to be a goal to combine a title, a government rating, a qualification, and a professional organization for each skill.
I believe this adds to the already enormous overhead of pencil-pushers that is already dragging down productivity. People with imaginary jobs control and license what does not need to be controlled just because they can, especially with computers.
I believe also that many job classifiers don't do a really good job of "correctly classifying", especially with the complexity of reality to deal with. You end up with artificialities like the average person, who does not exist. You end up with small, medium, and large - with more and more X's added as people grow huge.
Remember when a doctor could make house calls and still make a decent living? Now a house call would probably require a suitcase full of paperwork and a $750 bill.
I like to think of myself as a master carpenter, but there is much more that I do not know than what I do know. I am not even the least bit interested in framing anything with steel studs, for example. But I love to work with wood. Yes, I do know how to work with steel studs. I just won't be doing it. There's nothing wrong with steel studs either.
I like to think of myself as a vegetable expert, although I have no qualifications other than that I know how to enjoy them. Also, I will never eat Brussels Sprouts!
Somewhere, there is a civil servant working with an insurance company and a community college to classify people as vegetable experts. Once we are in the system, we will have to join a professional organization, pay dues, buy the magazine, and go to conferences. We will have a little tomato symbol on our lapel. We will have to wear a suit. If we screw up, we will not be allowed to shop for veggies at the market without oversight.
I always think of "master carpenter" as a marketing tool. Either for business, or union members who feel entitled to a higher pay grade.
Claiming to be the "master" of anything is stupid to me.
Just when I start thinking about how good I am at something, something sends me crashing back to earth.
It's not too late, it's never too late.
Edited 8/16/2008 1:04 pm ET by dustinf
Being a master at anything doesn't insulate your from mistakes. I would call anyone a master carpenter if they possess the ability to use their carpentry skills to accomplish things, even if they have never dabbled with that particular product, service or phase of the trade. For instance, I've never built a fireplace mantle but I possess all the skills and tools necessary to do one. I don't refer to myself as a master carpenter but I don't think there is anything wrong if someone else does so. Since there is no "official" designation the title is up for grabs for anyone that wants to assume it. For the record, I am proud to call myself a carpenter and it took me far more years to do so that most people might think. Certainly it was years pas the point where I had graduated from the union apprenticeship program before I really felt like I had "arrived". By then, I had already been running a crew for six or seven years and on my own for three or four. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
"Claiming to be the "master" of anything is stupid to me."what has been noodling around in the back of my head on this is that in the history of the terms from old country, the term Master was NEVER claimed by the person. Rather it was attributed to him by his peers after a review of his work spanning years. to make the claim is presumptuous and arrogant.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"to make the claim is presumptuous and arrogant."So I guess this is a bad time to say... When you look in the mirror, do you see me ?No ?Then you aren't a master carpenter.;o)
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
Luka
I don't disagree with you at all. Some who'll claim to be Master Carpenter use it to hussle and hide there motives to cheat and mislead.
We don't have a certification for this title so it's easy to claim.
I might consider myself a master carpenter but for more humble reasons. As I said in my post I consider the definition to be one who earns a living by there own hand. This defines one leaving an appreniceship to hang theie own shingle out. A coppersmith, tinsmithey or say a mason in the old days spent many years at the hand of there master. When the day comes for them to go out on there own they hardly know everything. But they do know enough to earn a living. They also know they'll be ever learning and expanding there skills and craft.
A master hardly knows all but is simply high up in the path of there craft, reaching ever higher.
When a client calls me a master craftsman I say thank you but I explain what I feel that term really means.
Heck by some here the only way one could be a master carpenter would be to enter the realm of God and that requires Piffin's permission as you know.
Edited 8/18/2008 11:57 am by jagwah
Um...That would be St Peter at that gate, not St Piffin, LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Anyone who owns a hammer. < G, D, & R!! >
Does the hammer have to be a "Master Mechanic" brand to fall under that classification?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
That brand qualifies, but so does any chinese harbor freight type hammer.If you have an old Stanley or Vaughan wood handled hammer you are either REALLY OLD or a total elitist.
I like it.
You know. It's that thing that if you repeat it enough times it becomes true. <G>
What?
That it only takes hammer ownership to make a carpenter.
Hammers are optional equipment these days. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
Actually they're punk deterrents. If they mess with the old man and he's swingin a 24oz douglas your messin' gonna have consequences.
I like a straight claw to open beer bottles, but yes, I could do it with various other tools. <G>
Sorry spaced on the context.
Here it only takes pointing out you worked on your Daddies barn one summer to qualify you to journeyman carpenter status. If your Daddy has a good fishing pond on the farm as well some bosses will promote you to foreman.
A couple of years ago I helped a friend put up a 60'x60' steel arch hangar. We hired several local younguns to help. Also helping was my buddies old buddy, aged 78. Old Chuck came over to me at one point and motioned toward one of the "help". He said if this were the real world that lazy worthless toad would be on his way to foreman.Chuck was much better help than some of the guys under 25 years old.
Old Chuck came over to me at one point and motioned toward one of the "help". He said if this were the real world that lazy worthless toad would be on his way to foreman.
Man my side is hurting from laughing so damn hard!
I think I'm going to steal that line
Doug
Don't you mean "just any old guy with a hammer" ?;o)
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
Hey! I resemble that remark.
Perhaps to answer your question you should look at how the law defines the term. There is much case law involving licensing laws whereby distinctions are made between journeyman plumbers and master plumbers or between journeyman electricians and master electricians. The same distinction applies to all trades. In the law, a journeyman plumber and a master plumber are considered different occupations. The same is true for journeyman electricians and master electricians and all other trades. Since you work in the construction industry it is assumed that you know the legal distinction.
I know of no legal definition of a Master Carpenter.Master Carpenter is a supernatural being.http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/Master-CarpenterandSouth-East-Haida.html''Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.'' Plato
with that definition I think I might qualify. (in my dreams)"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Thanks for the feedback, great responses..
In the original context, a "master" anything (carpenter, cabinetmaker, blacksmith, etc.) was one who had served out his/her apprentiship and journeymanship, and completed a "masterwork" -- a particularly difficult piece to demonstrate to his own master that he had, well . . . "mastered" all aspects of his craft.
I'd say it's pretty much the same thing today. I've met lots of carpenters. But only a few true master carpenters. Today, many specialize too much to truly master all aspects of their crafts.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Thats the best summation yet , I believe.
very good response. I would like to add to the thought that most carpenters today are not taught by master carpenters anymore. Most of us learn from others that may or may not have the full set of skills themselves. At least in a union setting (not that I think unions are all they should be) there are at least markers or milestones to reach in order to achieve a status of apprentice, journeyman,master. Someone said his framer was a true jedi. on that line of thinking in the star wars films a jedi apprentice could only be taught by a master jedi and was refered to as such. today that is lost in our trades."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
To Mike and All,I thought Mike had a great post way back, and should have nearly been the end-all. However, I wanted to somewhat add to Mike's posting by observing that "Master" today is a title awarded by a college, a degree.I am in the process of trying to become a Master Carpenter. Since it is not offered by any college as a certified degree (although it should and hopefully will someday!) I decided long ago to forge my own journey towards making myself a Master Carpenter. For nearly ten years, I worked under the best carpenter I ever met. A man who could and did do every part of home building without hesitation or (outward) doubt and get par or better results each time. I left his employment to focus on cabinetmaking under another teacher/employer. After years in that focus, I went to school for architecture. I obtained an Associate's (AAA) and a Bachelor's (BSA) degree. Upon graduating, I bought a dilapidated repo house and decided to fix it up, proper. In the fix-up I want to do everything, From designing it, to breaking ground on an addition and then to hooking up the A/V system, everything between. I hope to make this the first of four homes (ranch, modern, victorian, timberframe). The timberframe I would like to build by hand, making it my masterpiece. Additionally, I may go back to school for my Master of Architecure (MA) degree. It will take a long time, but I believe in the end I will certainly qualify as a Master Carpenter.FWIW: Having been to college recently and known many grad students in architecture and engineering (many other majors too) it pains me to think of most as "masters" in their fields upon graduation. If that were the case in carpentry, I would have graduated by now...with a PHD. Really wishing there were a carpentry degree.GK
"It will take a long time, but I believe in the end I will certainly qualify as a Master Carpenter."
Nope -- you'll qualify as "Retired"! LOL!
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
"You live and learn,Then you die and forget." - Huey Long_______
/_|o[____]o
[1---L-OllllllO-
()_)()_)=°°=)_)
"In the nature of things, we think a corporation could not engage in the occupation either of a master plumber or of a journeyman plumber." Trewitt v. City of Dallas, 242 S.W. 1073.
"There is a well-recognized difference between a master plumber and a journeyman plumber, and this distinction is noted by the trial judge." State v. Malory, 168 La. 742, 123 So. 310.
"Six years' experience as a master electrician conceivably would do as much to qualify the applicant as six years' experience as a journeyman electrician." City of Tucson v. Stewart, 45 Ariz. 36, 40 P2d 72.
Licensing of master electricians. City of Shreveport v. Bayse, 166 La. 689, 117 So. 775.
Licensing of journeyman plumbers but not master plumbers. City of Louisville v. Coulter, 177 Ky. 242, 197 S.W. 819.
Distinction between master plumbers and journeyman plumbers defined. Felton v. City of Atlanta, 4 Ga. App. 183, 61 S.E. 27.
Concerning journeyman plumbers and master plumbers - "The law looks on both of these occupations with favor, not with disfavor." Wilby v. State, 93 Miss. 767, 47 So. 465.
Licensing of journeyman plumbers and master plumbers. State ex rel. Grantham v. City of Memphis, 151 Tenn. 1, 266 S.W. 1038.
The difference between the occupation of master carpenter and the occupation of journeyman carpenter is the same as the difference between master plumber and journeyman plumber or master electrician and journeyman electrician.
Not applicable. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
So when a court uses the term master carpenter or master mason in a written decision that term has no meaning? It must have meaning or the court would not use the term. Suppose your state has a law pertaining to master carpenters but not journeyman carpenters. What then? I have purposely refrained from giving the definitions to see if those on this board know. However, I will say that in the legal definition the term master plumber or master electrician or master painter or master carpenter that skill has nothing to do with it. In the law, it is the journeyman who is at the apex of the skill level.
Master Plumbers and Master Electricians are licensed by the state and so they are defined.
There is no definition for a Master Carpenter.
The term is archaic.''Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.'' Plato
Edited 8/16/2008 8:33 pm ET by MikeRooney
I've never heard of a state having any law that included the term master carpenter. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm just saying I've never heard of it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
"when a court uses the term master carpenter or master mason in a written decision "YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ANY QUOTES CITING THAT HAS HAPPENEDbesides, there is still a diff between qualifications and legal licensing.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
http://www.answers.com/topic/master-craftsmanBeen searching the subject from a legal standpoint and can't find any refs in the states to clarify.This link has some decent history tho.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I worked one summer on a charter boat. At the end of the season, they told me: "Congratulations! You are now a Master Baiter."''Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.'' Plato
I am thinking the USN at one time had the rating of Master Chief Carpenter. (consolidated into Builder to cover more area and ratings at some point in the 50's IIRC) Would that count? ;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Our naval traditions stem from the British navy until we got tired of the impressing of seamen. I believe a good third of the references I found to the term master carpenter came for brit navy or our merchant marine. There is a job classification there.Still in two hours never found more than a passing ref in this country other than a lot of guys with commercial reasons for calling themselves master carp.But no legal title recognized here in this country that I can find.5150 has tried to make this point before but never succeeded. he stretches vaguely related precedents where the courts do not.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Man, that reminds me..I had a customer in Philly give me ( in addition to payment) an old, really old..ships carpenters tool chest. It was walnut and poplar from the 1700's..not a single tool left inside, but a recess for a square, and other various tell tale signs..he had had it appraised as such and ID'd as to what it was..from some ship that arrived in the NE way back when.
Some low-life pondscum stole it from me, when I was out of state and had a house sitter , who invited riff and raff over for a party. It was my freaking coffee table for cryin out loud.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
.....had a house sitter , who invited riff and raff over for a party.
I know those two guys! They seam to get around.
Bassturds probably only got $25 for the damn thing and it was worth a whole lot more.
Doug
that s*ck*! I feel like hunting him/her down myself. had a really good bike stoeln 'cause my roomate at the time had a friend over and showed him the hidden key."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Master plumbers, master electricians and so forth are contractors. Journeyman plumbers, journeyman electricians and so forth are mechanics. Perhaps you have heard of mechanics' lien laws. Perhaps you have also heard of contractor licensing laws. The original intent of lien laws was to give security to carpenters and other mechanics for work they had done. If a state has legislation for contractors and there is simply a title "contractors", then such legislation does not pertain to mechanics. Any person who is a contractor knows the title applies to them and therefore they are subject to such legislation. Therefore, in enacting the title, the legislative body assumes that one knows what a contractor is.If there were a title "Barbers", who do you think that title would apply to? Would an accountant or a real estate salesman look under that title to find legislation pertaining to him? The legislative body assumes that a person knows what a barber is and that any person who is a barber would see how that legislation affects him.If a property owner hires a carpenter to perform the labor in hanging a door, then there are two parties to the contract - one is legally known as the contractor and the other is known as the mechanic. The mechanic is the carpenter who hangs the door. It is also understood in the law that one party is the master carpenter and the other party is the journeyman carpenter. The journeyman carpenter is the mechanic hanging the door. Therefore, the property owner is the master carpenter and consequently the contractor. These terms basically define the relationships between parties. If a property owner performs the labor and hangs the door himself, then the property owner is the mechanic and therefore the journeyman. Just as a property owner can hire a journeyman carpenter, a property owner can hire a master carpenter (carpentry contractor). In that case, the carpentry contractor is the property owner's agent and mechanics and material vendors are third parties to the carpentry contractor's contract.It's all about the legal relationships between parties.
fifty
How does one go about becoming a Master Carpenter?
I know of no way to do so, enlighten me please. Dont tell me to have Russell Moresh or Taunton dub me one either, that does not count.
Doug
You use a whole lot of IFs in your pet theory"If a state has legislation for contractors and there is simply a title "contractors", then such legislation does not pertain to mechanics. Any person who is a contractor knows the title applies to them and therefore they are subject to such legislation. Therefore, in enacting the title, the legislative body assumes that one knows what a contractor is."Here and in any state I have lived and worked, that is simply not true.IF you ate a lot of roses maybe your poop would not stink too.
IF you convince yourself of that, good for you.But meanwhile, the United States have no legal or other recognition of the term master carpenter other than in your imagination.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The lien laws of the state where I live state that persons, firms or corporations who furnish labor or materials for construction shall have a lien whether such labor or materials were furnished at the instance of the property owner or his agent. It then states that all contractors and subcontractors are agents of the property owner.Given this, who do you think contractor licensing laws apply to. It certainly is not trade labor such as carpenters and plumbers.We have contractor licensing in my state and all contractors and subcontractors are required to be licensed if they are acting as agents. Property owners are required to be licensed as contractors except in certain instances. For example, if the property is the owner's residence then the owner need not have a specialty license as a carpentry contractor to directly contract with a carpenter. If however the property is built for sale or is rental property or is commercial property, then the property owner needs a carpentry contractor license to directly contract with a carpenter. It is a criminal offense for a person who owns a laundromat or restaurant or other business to hire a carpenter unless the state first gets their cut in the form of a license fee authorizing the right to do so. That said, carpenters never turn these people in to the authorities after they work for them. The license fee for a carpentry contractor's license also authorizes the licensee to purchase lumber or millwork. But if a restaurant owner goes to Home Depot and purchases lumber, millwork and other materials for a carpenter to use, Home Depot never turns them in either.
So What!You have your hobby horse of your interpretation of your states licensing laws that you like to spread out over everyone everywhere.Have fun with that.But meanwhile, it has absolutely nothing to do with any sort of legal definition of master carpenter in the USexcept in your imagination
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Define carpentry contractor and tell me what they do.Define general contractor and tell me what they do.Tell me where those terms are defined in the law.Read the Miller Act pertaining to federal construction projects. Contractors, subcontractors, and mechanics are mentioned but there is no definition of any of those terms. So please, you define them for us.And where a lien law defines all contractors and subcontractors to be agents of the property owner, define the meaning of agent.Edited 8/31/2008 10:03 pm ET by 5150
Edited 8/31/2008 10:07 pm ET by 5150
A master carpenter is something that I'd like to be but know it's a place I'll probably never get to..but I keep trying : )
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.org
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muhvpNuVN4Y
A licensed contractor providing any service be it plumbing, electrical, carpentry, painting, builder or whatever is given license by the controlling agency to enter into a binding contract to conduct business.
The parameters, requirements and fees to obtain permission to contract is up to the licensing agency. (usually follows national and local standards)
The specifics defining the service provided to the customer is stipulated in the contract and usually restricted by the parameters of license.
Owner enters into a contract with a carpentry service to build an addition.
Carpenter buys materials at the local lumberyard for the project.
Carpenter does not pay the materials bill.
Lumberyard puts lien on owner's property because the materials were used for project and were "bought" by the carpenter acting on behalf of the owner.
Dunno where to tell you where to look for specifics other than your local jurisdiction.
Tom, don't get sucked in. He comes around every few months and trys to force everyone to adopt a new reality regarding lien laws. Maybe he can study the lien laws in the TX code and he'll see that he's wrong.
Oh that's OK, he appeared to be confused as to what "contractors" and "agents" were and I thought I'd offer up what they meant in my neck of the woods.
@Piffin
Yep, being a contractor has nothing to do with being a master carpenter (whatever it means).
doesn't matter.The subject at hand is master carpenter
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin , Agreed , we went through a similar discussion over at the Knots side ,
What makes you a craftsman and what constitutes fine wood working ?
Basically most of us agree , we don't call ourselves masters we let others do that . Opinion are so individual .
Just think if Surgeons and Doctors went by similar terms
Do you want a surgeon or a journeyman surgeon or a master surgeon ?
dusty
"Do you want a surgeon or a journeyman surgeon or a master surgeon ?"There actually is a very similar hierarchy for surgeons.A medical student would be the equivalent of an apprentice or laborer. An intern, resident, or fellow would be the equivalent of a journeyman. Depending on what recognizing body you consider the equivalent of the ancient guilds, a master surgeon would either be an attending surgeon with hospital privileges, a board-certified surgeon, or a surgeon who is a senior member of the full-time teaching faculty of a residency program. If you go with the last, then there is even an idea somewhat analogous to the "masterpiece", which is having an operation named after you or, alternatively, writing a surgical textbook or a surgical research paper of import.Rebeccah
The cases I cited earlier all defined journeyman plumbers to be those who were skilled in the trade as compared to master plumbers who did not actually perform trade labor. Rhode Island has licensing for journeyman electricians and electrical contractors. The definitions are the same as have been used for more than a century. A journeyman is defined as a person who personally does electrical work. An electrical contractor is defined as a person who through the employment of journeyman electricians does electrical work. Electrical contractor and master electrician are synonymous terms. Contractor is synonymous with supervisor. Here are two cases with identical legislation. City of Milwaukee v. Rissling, 184 Wis. 517, 199 N.W. 61 and City of Shreveport v. Bayse, 166 La. 689, 117 So. 775. In Rissling every electrical contractor, whether person, firm or corporation was required to obtain a license. To obtain the license, the supervisor was required to stand an examination to obtain the license. In Bayse, every master electrician, whether person, firm or corporation was required to obtain a license. To obtain the license, the supervisor was required to stand an examination to obtain the license. Bayse was convicted for supervising electrical work without first having taken the master electrician's examination. One of the objections by the defendant's attorney was that the ordinance was designed to prevent competition from electrical contractors who were not from Shreveport. Hmmm. A master electrician's license to prevent competition from outside electrical contractors. And in State ex rel. Grantham v. City of Memphis, 151 Tenn. 1, an ordinance of Memphis required all journeyman plumbers to be licensed. It also provided for the licensing of persons, firms and corporations engaged in the business of master plumber. To obtain the license, the supervisor was required to stand an examination. So, in Rissling, the supervisor was required to obtain a license for an electrical contractor. In Bayse the supervisor was required to obtain a master electricians license and defendant argued it was to prevent competition from outside electrical contractors. And in Grantham the supervisor was required to obtain a license for master plumbers. Supervisor, supervisor, supervisor. Hmmm. No connection yet. Bet your state licensing agency for contractors requires the supervisor to take the examination.Now consider a one person operation with no employees. Just a single sole proprietor. He has a plumbing contractor license. As supervisor he took the examination for the license. So he is a one person supervisory business. Now, as stated in the Rhode Island statutes, an electrical contractor does work through the employment of journeyman electricians. Before he employs those journeyman he must have a contract to hire them. As was stated in Wilby v. State, a plumbing contractor completes his contract by employing journeyman plumbers. This is exactly what lien laws state.
First, being a "master" tradesman and being a trade "contractor" may coincide in the the same person or company, and qualifying as one may be a prerequisite to being licensed to function as the other, but they are not synonyms.Second, the analogy of professional recognition in the medical field is an analogy, nothing more. Just as there are variations in state laws and customs regarding practice in the building trades, there are variations in state laws and customs regarding medical and surgical practice; the two are not identical each within their own scope of practice, let alone identical to each other.Rebeccah
Why do you care about all of this?
all of which has nothing to do with defining a master carpenter, except perhaps in your imagination.Last time you did all this Mike pointed out how your refs to RI were fully out of context and with no application
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Read the Miller Act pertaining to federal construction projects. Contractors, subcontractors, and mechanics are mentioned but there is no definition of any of those terms. So please, you define them for us."
MAYBE YOU SHOULD READ IT:
(a) Definition.--In this subchapter, the term "contractor" means a person awarded a contract described in subsection (b).
Way to go HammerHarry! Bravo!
<!----><!----><!---->I’m not taking sides, (see all), just killing some time with some semantics…. again. I’ve seen some of these arguments before, so I dug up a couple of published definitions, and here they are.
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Master Carpenter<!----><!---->
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Black’s Law Dictionary (6th Edition; abridged)<!----><!---->
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Master. A principal who employs another to perform service in his affairs and who controls or has right to control physical conduct of other in performance of the service. Ss 2. One who stands to another in such a relation that he not only controls the results of the work of that other but also may direct the manner in which such work shall be done.<!----><!---->
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One having authority; one who rules, directs, instructs, or superintends; a head or chief; an instructor; an employer. See various “Master” titles below. (Not included was “Master Carpenter”, or any of the trades.)<!----><!---->
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One who has reached the summit of his trade and who has the right to hire apprentices and journeymen. (Implies “Master” is applicable to all Trades) (?) <!----><!---->
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Encarta Dictionary (condensed by yours truly)<!----><!---->
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Carpenter; (noun). A builder or repairer of wooden structures, or the wooden part of them.<!----><!---->
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Carpenter; (verb). To build and repair wooden structures, or the wooden part of them.<!----><!---->
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Edited 9/1/2008 9:37 pm ET by MrJalapeno
Edited 9/1/2008 11:11 pm ET by MrJalapeno
I had a welding class in my union carpenter apprentice training class. It turns out that the Union Carpenters do underwater piling and sometimes there's welding involved.
Jim,<!----><!----><!---->
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This is one of the defs I condensed out of the previous post.<!----><!---->
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Encarta Dictionary<!----><!---->
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Carpenter (verb)<!----><!---->
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3. make something in efficient way<!----><!---->
transitive verb to make or devise something efficiently and systematically<!----><!---->
• They met every day, in the vain attempt to carpenter an agreement that would be acceptable to both sides.<!----><!---->
Yep had that class too. But it was light gage steel stud welding, for curtain wall attachments. ML
You are asking a very tough question. I suggest you send it in to your state attorney general for an opinion.
references to LICENSING plumbers and electricians do nothing to illuminate QUALIFICATIONS between journeymen and master carpenters
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=master
master (n.)
O.E. mægester "one having control or authority," from L. magister "chief, head, director, teacher" (cf. O.Fr. maistre, Fr. maïtre, It. maestro, Ger. Meister), infl. in M.E. by O.Fr. maistre, from L. magister, contrastive adj. from magis (adv.) "more," itself a comp. of magnus "great." Meaning "original of a recording" is from 1904. In academic senses (from M.L. magister) it is attested from 1380s, originally a degree conveying authority to teach in the universities. The verb is attested from c.1225.
So a "master carpenter" would seem to me (legal definitions aside) to be a carpenter qualified to take control or authority over carpentry projects, to head or direct them, or to teach carpentry.
Rebeccah
I think to qualify as a Master Carpenter, you have to have your own t.v. show.''Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.'' Plato
:-)
also a good answer. I think the combination of being able to run operations and teach are definitely key to the definition."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
To have a title, whether it be doctor- phd- master or journeyman, that title has to have been have been confired by a certified entity, such as college - trade organization, etc. . It is my understanding that the highest title ( in carpentry ) reconized by the U.S. govt. labor branch, is journeyman. It may have changed, but the only entity reconized to confir that title was the United Brotherhood of Carpenters Union. Who have a 4 year apprentice program, and testing, leading to the awarding of journeyman. Although anyone can call themselves by any title, it's BS unless they have been given that title by a certified agency. It's also been my experience that when I met someone who called themselves a master carpenter, it was all in their mind ( BS and hipe ).
Roger
Journeyman/-- Local 1765 United Brotherhood of Carpenters
I agree Roger. Sadly, the brotherhood does not have master carpenters. IN this day and age, I find it odd that they don't create some form of higher learning, perhaps on the internet, and create a means of identifying those that have furthered their knowledge. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
From what I understand about the history of the term "master" carpenter is that it was an official designation given a "journeyman" carpenter by other "masters" after completing or amassing a body of work that was judged worthy of accepting him into the club of other "masters". Over time, it apparently became a tool used by the "masters" to control growth and limit competition by aspiring journeymen.
Thankfully we don't (officially) have that old system of trade politics anymore, however I believe that the principle of being named a "master carpenter" by our peers, (albeit unofficially) rather than a self-assumed title has a great deal of merit.
The concept of completing or amassing a compelling body of work translates today into what we would call a reputation. A reputation cannot be assumed or self-designated. It must be judged and awarded by others and can only come with time. The phrase "master" on a business card is not proof.
As to the scope of work, it would be difficult to define "master carpenter" in today's specialized pattern of construction. It would seem however that someone deemed to be a master carpenter is one that you could give any carpentry related job to, walk away, and come back to see it well done.
"After working as a journeyman for a specified period, a carpenter may go to study or test as a master carpenter. In some countries, such as Germany or Japan, this is an arduous and expensive process, requiring extensive knowledge (including economic and legal knowledge) and skill to achieve master certification; these countries generally require master status for anyone employing and teaching apprentices in the craft. In others, it can be a loosely used term to describe a skilled carpenter."Somebody came in a house where I was building a 3 story set of open stringer stairs with over the post continuous railings, ending in double volutes. They said I must be the master carpenter. While my ego was certainly stroked, I said" Nah, I'm just a carpenter who can put stairs together"... and pretty danged humble, too<G> Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
maybe the Break Time community can start to evaluate and award such designations."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
ME !!!
Oh wait.
I thought you said Mister.
Never mind...
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
The Carpenters union calls me a Journeyman Carpenter even though my work is in suspended Ceilings. Wood framed for a few years and have worked in some capacity in nearly every trade, from floor trades to roofing..
Yet the union calls me a Mechanic. Where'd that one come into play?
ML