I am a carpenter from north east ohio who is looking to secure a large high end trim job. It is for an individual, not a contractor. He is a top flight buisness man with a good reputation. As far as the trim package, there are very few details or specifics. From talking to him and his supervisor I would probably be heavily involved in the design and details of the finished product. This would also include dealing w/ a high maintenance Interior designer. Because of all these factors, there is no other option but to do it time/material.
My rate is typically 35$ per hour, and I would be happy as a pig in mud to make that for 5-8 months on a dream job that is less than a 1/2 hr from home. However, I don’t want to leave money on the table. I know that If he brought me in and I was there to do what ever he wanted. I acted as his advocate to make sure every part of the trim stage went just like he wanted. He could pay me 50$ per hour and it would be money well spent when you consider that it is a 3-4 million dollar house I don’t want to leave that kind of money on the table.
I also don’t want to ask him for 50$ and let him beat me all the way down to 35$. I think that looks bad, and is a bad reputation to have as a sub-contractor. I think a small amount of negotiation is good but to move to far represent that I don’t know what I’m worth and that I can always be beaten down. I’m looking for that sweet spot where he feels like he is getting value for his dollar, and I’m not leaving a lot of money on the table.
This is the pay scale I was thinking for me and subs under me:
-Head carpenter(me) 45$per
-Master carpenters 35$per
-apprentice labor 20-25$per
Any thoughts or advice? I would especially like to hear from carpenters in this region, as far as what your standard hrly rate is and what level of work that is for.
Thanks
Replies
You are approaching this like a used car, starting high, but knowing that you'll be willing to settle for less. You should establish your hourly rate based on your costs, overhead, desired profit, etc., not based on what you think the client might be willing to pay.
You are the only one here that knows your costs, etc. and if you'll be happy with $35/hr, then so be it. I don't think there is anything out of line with the labor costs that you have suggested, although some might be confused by the difference between Lead and Master. Can you just call yourself foreman or super?
I am in the southern tier NY.
there are several guys here from your area but I will add my 2 cents.
Questions to ask yourself:
You think this guy will price shop??
Does he understand that you will be, designer/super/P.R.man(with Int designer)/HIGH END Finish Carp./Magician/Babysitter??
which comes first for him $$$ or Quality work.
For 1st rate work and all the potential BS 75$/hr. is reasonable rate.
If he does not understand this then maybe he is not as good of a businessman as you think.
if he does understand , but still wants to beat you down, then you have to decide what you need to make and stand firm.
What someone else would charge should be irrelevant, BUT Times are TIGHT so again what do you need to make??
If YOU are "THE MAN" then he needs to understand and PAY for that.
It sounds like he's got the green
you just have to convince him you are worth it.
There are a bunch of guys/gals here that are way better than me at the sales end so I won't go there.
Sounds like a Great opportunity hope it works out for you
Tony
.
.
"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion"
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
.
.
.
according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
It sounds like this guy will try to get me to come down and he will use other estimates against me, but in the end wants quality over cheapest. I have a couple well respected referals that have put me in the drivers seat to get the job, so I think I have some equity to work w/.
Thanks for the advice
"For 1st rate work and all the potential BS 75$/hr. is reasonable rate."
I guess that would depend what part of NE Ohio he's in and what the going rates are. He'd most likely be out of work here in Pgh if he stood hard on $75/hr.
I read the part where he usually charges $35/hr ... and would be thrilled at 6 months of 40hr weeks at $35. Sounds to me like NY's $75 won't cut it.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I get about the same.but it sounds like this is a high-high end job with lots of extra responsibility.and 75$ per would definitely not be his normal rate for "lesser" jobs..
.
"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
.
.
.
according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
75$ hr x 40hr weeks for 5-6 months... 72k for trim labor lead guy... plus the other guys... at the rates posted... thats another 100k plus... call me what you will but this guy is in dream land... if he thinks this guy is going to pay 200k labor for the trim guys... if this guy is a "business man" he knows what skilled labor goes for... and is use to pay'n for it...
If you want the job don't try to screw the guy try'n to give you work... pigs get fat hogs get slaughtered.... if your going rate is $35 why are you worried about leave'n money on the table? thats your rate... what difference does it make WHAT you'll be doing for that $35.... if he wants you dance'n with the designer... so be it... same hours... If i was the guy and you told me $75hr... I'd just say thanks... and I'll let you know.... and that would be it... I don't argue over price... I assume you give me the best price on the front end... either i can afford it and see the value or i don't... I don't argue... if it doesn't fit I just say... thanks for your time... no second chances... because that means if you come back and say OK $40.... do i want to hire someone who just tried to screw me?.... you had your chance to be fair but you wanted to be greedy...
just my take on it...
P
WTF?
I agree.
in the past with a design/build firm I used to get alot of work from, I'd even drop my "retail" rates. It was all part of the negotiation.
I'd bid the bath tile ... they'd want a lower number ... I'd say ... Ok, but I also get the trim install too. I'd start at $45/hr ... drop to $40. They'd hem and haw ... and I'd say OK, let's make it $35 ... but I also get the cab install.
then I'd call my bud the lead carp ... ask who's doing the kitchen and what his time frame was for both the bath and kitchen. If I could fit both in ... I'd call the owners back and say ... I ran the numebrs and $35 is a bit low ... but ... tell ya what I'll do for U! Gimme the kitchen too, I'll block off 2 months ... and I'll do all your tile, cab's and trim in the bath and kitchen.
It was a win/win ... I'd work 40-50-60 hrs a week at a decent rate for 8 weeks ...
and that left their guys free'd up to hit the punch list hard. They did whole house remodels and big fancy additions ... they were always pressed for time.
What some people seem to be missing ... your "hourly rate" ... even if you don't charge hourly .. should include the estimated down time.
I base my $45/hr on 1,500 hr's worked ... and that's being generous!
Jeff
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
JeffBuck — "...in the past with a design/build firm I used to get alot of work from, I'd even drop my "retail" rates. It was all part of the negotiation.
I'd bid the bath tile ... they'd want a lower number ... I'd say ... Ok, but I also get the trim install too. I'd start at $45/hr ... drop to $40. They'd hem and haw ... and I'd say OK, let's make it $35 ... but I also get the cab install."
While I liked what ponytl had to say in his post I don't like or agree with your interpretation at all. The logic in what you are saying there sounds like the old saw "Yes, we lose money on each job but we make it up on volume." That dangerous fool hardy thinking that far too many contracting businesses and even more 1099er far too often think.
I don't really see how anyone who knows their price is $45/hr can realistically drop their price 22% to $35 and be making any money. Generally speaking if you cut your price anymore than 8-10% you've gone beyond the Net Profit you might have made and you are now cutting into you hourly wage and or overhead costs.
View Image
Sounds to me like Jeff's rate is $35.$45 is the you want it done now and fast, small job rate,more work, more scheduling flexibility, less down time, less set-up time, all mean that $35 will feed the family for the duration.basically he is averaging the hourly rate out to a monthly or even yearly rate.$5800 a month for 3 months is a whole lot better than $7500 for one month if your crystal ball is getting foggy.Times are tough and jobs evaporate with no notice.sometimes 3 months of a good thing is great....
.
"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
.
.
.
according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
"I don't like or agree with your interpretation at all"
That's OK ... I disagree with about 90% of your logic.
The $45/hr figures in downtime. Also figures in marketing time and selling time.
Figures in handhold tiome ... and figures in slow pay time.
Working steady for less money while removing any and all risk ... priceless!
I don't have spreadsheets ... I don't track every penny.
I hope to work steady ... and at the end of the year have enough money to try again next year! Mostly the bills get paid and mostly I have fun.
I sub'd for that particular company for about 3 years ... any time I had an opening I called then and had work. Steadiest work period with steadiest pay I've ever had.
Only time off was time I simply didn't schedule.
Plan worked to a T!
Figuring I was working over 2K hrs those years ... I seemed to make more then than I do now at a "firm" $45/hr!
let's see ... 1,500 x $45 = $67,500
2,200 x $35 = $77,000
then it was straight labor. Now keep in mind, I worked other jobs aside from theirs, but they were aprox 75% of my work. So to keep things simple, all labor.
Now I mark up materials and subs ... so the numbers are closer ...
But ... find me another deal where I just dial a number and get 6,8,10 weeks worth of work at a decent rate and the check clears each and every invoice ...
Sign Me Up!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
JeffBuck —- That's OK ... I disagree with about 90% of your logic.
Jeff you'll be doing everyone here a service, including me. if you'll actually point out the specific flaws in my logic.
When I disagree with you or what anyone else has to say I generally make it a point to explain exactly why I disagree and just what it is I find wrong in their thinking so the two differing viewpoints can then be compared based on their own merits. And by the way it's really not "my" thinking and "my logic" at all. There are a lot of other people, a lot smarter than I am in accounting finance, costing, and pricing whose logic and thinking it is that you hear me repeating.
The $45/hr figures in downtime. Also figures in marketing time and selling time.
Figures in handhold tiome ... and figures in slow pay time.
Well it good you are at least figuring in your downtime (or what I generally refer to as Non-Billable hours) but when I take the $45 per hr figure and your claim of approximately 1500 Billable Hours per year and reverse engineer it with average to low figures for labor burden and overhead (meaning your very conservative in your spending in those areas) it comes out to the equivalent of making a wage of $18.95 to $24 per hr or $37,895 to $48,000 per year. Checking the stats on Salary.com for your area that puts you right smack in the middle of Carpenter III earnings and while it may be just my opinion I think a "business owner" should be compensating themselves more than an average carpenter for the risk and responsibilities of owning a business.
Now I realize you're probably netting more than that thanks to the markup you say you apply to your material costs but that still isn't much reward for again, the risk and responsibilities of owning a business.
Working steady for less money while removing any and all risk ... priceless!
When you work for less than $45 per hour, dropping your price down to $35 per hr., with your burden and overhead remaining constant, that drop has to come out of your real wage compensation and earnings on your labor. In other words you are then saying you're willing to work for $14.75 to $18.70per hour for the security of working steady. If that's the case isn't someone then better off working as an employee so if the work does dry up and they lose their position they at least will qualify for unemployment.
I don't have spreadsheets ... I don't track every penny.
Well, I don't know why your proud of that. I think learning to use spreadsheets on a rudimentary level is nowadays a business essential. And there is really just no excuse anymore for not be able to use them on a very basic level. If a carpenter can understand and figure out the complicated geometry and trig of layout, framing, and fabrication then they can certainly learn how use a spreadsheet. And it doesn't take a full featured accounting program like MYOB or Quickbooks to track your expenses. A very simple easy inexpensive program like Quicken will track every penny and let you know what's really going on. And that's light years better than thinking you can run a business on hunches and folklore.
...But ... find me another deal where I just dial a number and get 6,8,10 weeks worth of work at a decent rate and the check clears each and every invoice ...
Sign Me Up!
I would try Marketing. It works wonders at getting weeks worth of work at a better rates.
View Image
so what's my labor burden and overhead? by your accounts it looks to be close to 50%! Wow ... $45 - $35 equals "$14.75 to $18.70per hour" . I must spend alot more than I know about.
"if you'll actually point out the specific flaws in my logic."
don't have the time nor inclination ... but I will cover some of your specifics here.
" I think learning to use spreadsheets on a rudimentary level is nowadays a business essential."
Yes, you would.
but I got a secret for ya ... they're the same numbers whether you type them into a spread sheet, scribble them onto a yellow legal pad ... or keep track of them in your head.
"Well, I don't know why your proud of that."
who said I was proud, just stated a fact.
people are different, not everyone has to be plugged into a computer.
"I would try Marketing. It works wonders at getting weeks worth of work at a better rates."
Is marketing free? Would that cost of marketing come out of my $45/hr?
Is that marketing guaranteed?
Does that amrketing take any of my time?
Does that time spent come out of that $45/hr?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff Buck — "Is marketing free? Would that cost of marketing come out of my $45/hr?"
A lot of tools and techniques of marketing are free. Often times it just a matter of thinking about and doing or saying the right thing at the right moment and it doesn't cost you a cent.
On the other hand building and remodeling contractors, depending upon the specialties, typically spend between 1-5% on marketing programs and in some cases they spend invest even more than that in the short term to deliver long term results but yes it does cost money and yes unless you're going to find a bag of cash on the sidewalk it does come out of YOUR $45 billing rate. But well engineered and thought out marketing efforts can result in a significant return on your marketing dollar.
Is that marketing guaranteed?
Jeff nothing in life is guaranteed but like I just said a well engineered and thought out marketing efforts can result in a significant return on your marketing dollar.
Does that amrketing take any of my time?
Jeff everything in life takes time. But again after you spend the time and/or money on a well engineered and thought out marketing program they can often work for you in the background without soaking up any more of your time than absolutely necessary. For instance the obvious example of that is you spend your time and money on a classy company brand identity and use it on your truck, shirts, jackets, paperwork, job signs etc. and after the initial expense the program working continues on it own. I know of a guy who went that route and was able to raise his rates 20% just because a lot of people were willing to shell out more money for a "professioanal look and feel" that made them feel safe, secure, and comfotable working with his company.
Does that time spent come out of that $45/hr?"
If you are smart about your financial planning it certainly does. I pay myself for the time I spend on my marketing efforts either by taking it as an increase in my quarterly draw or in planning to pay myself a wage for the time and effort involved.
View Image
Jeff
" I think learning to use spreadsheets on a rudimentary level is nowadays a business essential." Jerrald Hayes
Yes, you would.
but I got a secret for ya ... they're the same numbers whether you type them into a spread sheet, scribble them onto a yellow legal pad ... or keep track of them in your head.
I have a secret for you too. It doesn't matter if you use a hand saw or a skill saw. The result is the same, they both cut wood.
Reminds me of the story my painters told me about their grandfathers. A saleman came to them with a new tool, a paint roller. After he left they tossed it in the rafters and there it stayed for the next 20 years. Who needs one of those, we have brushes.
A spread sheet can do so many things for you. You can change an estimate with just a couple of clicks. If a customer says they want to take a couple of things out of the project. No problem. Just hit delete a few times. Spreadsheet does all the math.
The main benefit is that I can keep all my old worksheets so that I can look back and figure how long it took us to do a certain task. This week I needed to know how long it takes to stain and varnish double hung windows. I looked up two different jobs and looked at the actual hours we worked to do X number of sash.
I build my own worksheets. Some automatically fill in other parts. If I enter 1 next to tub/shower the sheet automatically enters in a standard faucet, drain, trap and the parts I need to plumb the faucet/shower.
In my door worksheet if I put a 1 in the door column then a package of shims, foam, caulk, lock and deadbolt are figured automatically.
I do my estimates in a worksheet and my billing in another worksheet. I keep my old worksheets in a seperate folder for reference.
I would never be able to keep all my old records organized on paper, but with a computer it is easy.
In the next post I'll post some examples.
Rich
Jeff
Here is what my door worksheet looks like.
Materials on the left and labor on the right.
I have several door options and 2 storm door options.
I can quickly figure a different option by just entering 1 next to a different door.
The worksheet does all the math.
I keep some old door prices from previos jobs off to the right hand side for quick estimates.
Rich
Jeff
This is the worksheet I use to do my billing.
Again materials on the left and labor on the right.
That's how I used to do it on paper.
Below the totals are figured with sales tax if that applies.
Labor is subject to sales tax in Iowa if it is a repair.
I have other billing worksheets that I can use if it is a bid job with extras.
This is a simple worksheet and a small job just for making a point.
Rich
Jeff
This is a simple worksheet I use for misc jobs. The bulk of what we do.
Materials at the right, labor on the left.
At the bottom I have 3 different markup scenarios.
Materials mark up 20% and labor as I figure it.
Materials markup 20% and labor up 10%
Both of them marked up 30%
It give me 3 choices that are constantly updated as I make changes to the estimate above. Then I make a choice about the final price based on how I feel about the job, wheather or not I really want the job and so forth.
Shoot I forgot to attach the file. Ill do that next.
Rich
Edited 2/19/2009 10:59 pm ET by cargin
I don't read my own spreadsheets and you somehow think I'm gonna look at yours?
You spreadsheet people are kinda like a cult or something, huh?
count me not interrested.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff
OK
Rich
Rich there are plenty of people who are comfortable digging a ditch with a shovel when there a backhoe right next to them because they struggle getting the hang of the controls. If guys like Vince and Jeff want to stay stuck with what they learned back in the 60's and 70's when they were in grade school that's their choice.A couple of year ago I went to look at a huge deck, trellis, and gazebo job and when I went into to meet with the client for the first time I saw the brochure and folder on the kitchen island from another contractor I knew. It turns out he was the 39 year old son of one of the clients neighbors and when they found out the client was working with an architect on a extensive outdoor project they suggested she contact their son. When I asked her about how many bids she was getting for the project she told me she hadn't really decided but told me then how she did speak with her neighbors son earlier that day and he told her he could have and estimate for her in two or three weeks. I knew John only vaguely (not his real name) but what I did know was that while he was an excellent tradesman he was the kind of guy who picked up on what to use as his billing rate by talking to the other contractors he hung out with on Fridays down at Jimmy's, the local bar. He used his computer to hang out on a fishing and boating forum but not for really running his business as far as I could tell. He was a legal pad estimator.I said to the client that it certainly doesn't take three weeks to do an estimate for her project (emphasizing the long time frame he quoted her). I emphasized we had done all this work before and had computerized task records for all the tasks involved in her project and since she had an excellent set of architects plans it was really just a matter of counting the quantities and plugging those values into the task formulas. We didn't need to spend a lot of time thinking about how long something would take because we had historical records we could pull up that told us those kinds of things. We didn't need to spend a lot of time calling around for material prices because we kept records of those too and could pull those up quickly and plug them in. I looked at my calendar and told her I could probably do the estimate tomorrow afternoon and have it for her the following morning which I did.I took me only a couple of hours to count the quantities and plug the numbers into our system. Then having the estimate done I spent maybe a few minutes at best designing and setting up the payment schedule in another part of our program which then automatically put that payment schedule into a contract that already had the client information entered into it since that was done automatically when it was entered into the estimate originally and then printed out the whole shebang.Impressed with our speed, efficiency, and thoroughness we had the 85K job secured the next day.If guys like Jeff, Vince, and I am sure the many others like that are here want to continue to grind and pound things out the archaic way they did in the last century they're welcome to do so. I think there's a better way and whenever I find a common repetitive task that I can speed up with automation I try to do so. It's really not that hard.I for one appreciate and find it interesting reading about your efforts to work with excel. I've been there and done that. When I started my business 19 years ago I did it with a partner at first but we were like a bad marriage (having never been married at least I think that was what a bad marriage would be like) and had an ugly break up after just a few months. His parting shot to me as he left was "At least I know for sure you never understand business management and how to use the computer." I turns out that was the best thing anyone could have said to me.
View Image
At least I know for sure you never understand business management and how to use the computer." I turns out that was the best thing anyone could have said to me.
thats why you got a chip on your shoulder about spread sheets huh? <G> :)
Mike if you knew me better you would have poked fun of me standing up for spreadsheets. I'm really a database guy and I often rail about how we need to get beyond spreadsheets and adopt database driven solutions. (Spreadsheets vs. Database Solutions, interesting,...look who's there chiming in on behalf of legal pads.)
I guess I am just a prejudiced anti-ludite neo-geek.
View Image
just tryin to light the mood a little :)
Jerrald
I too thought Jeff's reply was funny.
A guy has to know what he is capable or comfortable doing. If a yellow pad works for a guy then go for it.
A spreadsheet is just a souped up yellow pad. You don't have to reinvent the wheel every time you sit down to do an estimate. And the computer can keep infinite number of old records at your finger tips.
I really liked the link on spreadsheets vs database. Good reading
We didn't need to spend a lot of time thinking about how long something would take because we had historical records we could pull up that told us those kinds of things.
I need to get there with my labor estimating. Last year after a similar thread I started a cost tracking worksheet.
I stayed pretty faithful to entering in data at the time of billing.
But I was never happy with the set up. Then life got busy and I fell away from using it.
Material costs are easy to figure compared to labor costs.
Well anyway thanks for staying with us knuckle draggers and helping us see a better way.
Got to get to work on our spare bedroom. Not much work here now.
Rich
Spreadsheets and data bases work good for you. That's good.But your shovel vs backhoe analogy just doesn't work in this case-there is no way a guy with a shovel can make money like a guy with a backhoe. But people make good money every day without computerized spreadsheets and data bases.I have worked for a number of contractors who make big money (I'm talking mid to upper six figures) that can barely turn on a computer. They don't spend time with computer generated data bases and spreadsheets. They don't work on a keyboard at all. They literally work on notebook paper As a matter of fact the guy I'm working for now hasn't a clue how to send or receive email, type a document on Word, or even chat on a builder's forum.What he does have is the ability to organize, a great ability to sell, and a great ability to lead and inspire those who work for him. Those abilities transcend the shovel vs. backhoe argument.I'm sure you could prepare a killer Power Point presentation and make a dazzling display of facts and figures to sell a client on your proposal.But this guy can (and does) stand up anywhere; a Board Room, a donut shop, a tailgate, you nameit, without a single prop or piece of paper, and sell a job or a concept convincingly.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
John
They literally work on notebook paper
As a matter of fact the guy I'm working for now hasn't a clue how to send or receive email, type a document on Word, or even chat on a builder's forum.
And he doesn't even use a calculator, he can add the columns long hand.
Sorry I couldn't resist. I hear what you are saying.
But I look back on some many things that were said to me or I said myself and now they sound so ridiculous.
1. Air nailers!!! We don't need those. My 1st boss.
Then it was we only need to get a framing nailer.
2. Makita skill saw. What kind of Jap junk is that. That lasted all of one week until the old timers used one out of necessity. He never picked up that old wobbly PC again.
3. Cordless drills!!! What do I need that for? I already have a drill with a cord and it never needs to be recharged. My 1st boss.
4. DSL and the internet. We don't need to spend the extra money on something like that. The internet is just for the kids to chat and play games. I am not shelling money out each month so that it will download faster. Dail up is fast enough for me. We will never use the internet for anything but entertainment. That is a quote from me.
Rich
A guy with a shovel will make a boatload more money than a guy with a backhoe if his business is planting roses....
.
"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
.
.
.
according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
But not as much as a woman planting tulips.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
there's a lot of money to be on your knees if you don't mind a little hard work....
.
"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
.
.
.
according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
Jeff,
That gave me a good laugh, thanks.
Im' still chuckling
Vince Carbone
Riverside Builders
Franklin,NY
Edited 2/20/2009 8:15 am ET by VinceCarbone
Hey Vince ... U hear that?
U and me went to grade school together ...
I thot U looked familiar!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You were that big bully sitting in the back of the room right?
I thought I recognized you.
And I do like the spreadsheets, very handy to look things up quickly. Vince Carbone
Riverside Builders
Franklin,NY
if it was math class I was sitting right up front so I could learn to add quick as to not reply on computers!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I once had a deal for a part on a gov. contract... i needed 2000 of em... and the local dealer wanted $110ea... I knew his cost was $55... plus he got bigger discounts as his volume went up plus he got 5% ad dollars... that they kicked him back... so i go to him and tell him... I'll pay you in advance... and pick them up when they come in... but I'll only pay you $58ea... he'd make 6k plus have use of my money IF he chose to pay his factory invoice in 10 days he got a 2% discount... so he had at least another 7k sitting there....
now i explained this to him 5 different ways... all he could come back with was
"i can't keep my doors open if i don't make 20% on every sale"
ended up he got mad at me for try'n to make him money....
the next phone call i made was to the next closest dealer 150 miles away....
he told me if i'd pay upfront he'd sell em to me at cost.... seems he called the factory and got special pricing of $45 each... and they drop shipped them to me...
the moral of the story is... MIP "money in pocket" at the end of the deal will you end up with any... and is that number worth your time & effort... That number should always be in FLEX as all the conditions that apply to it are also...
guys that tell me "my truck doesn't leave the drive if i can't make $1000" spend a whole lot of time at home...
at the end of each day I like to have more than i started with.... it's so simple it's stupid... I really don't care how it comes or from where...
P
Ponytl, most tradesmen aren't that type of entrepreneur. They don't look at "deals" from a "deal" perspective. I know I do. I guess I'm a horse trader from way back.
guys that tell me "my truck doesn't leave the drive if i can't make $1000" spend a whole lot of time at home...
Hey, I like stayin at home :) why work for free? why do twice the work for half the money? never could figure that out.
all depends what you want... if you are happy and secure... god bless you...
I never said there was only one road to get anywhere... I work everyday... not always full days on sat & sunday but... I manage to work everyday and have time with my wife & kids... I'm sure there are better ways to get there than the path I chose... but no one has more fun everyday.... than me...
"sleep'n is for when you are dead son..." line from some song i like....
btw I'm always proud of anyone who does well....
p
btw I'm always proud of anyone who does well....
me too i can't stand people that are always jealous of others sucess.
Sorry but in powell ohio a good friend of mine just trimmed the house of a 28 year old guy that owns 60 some verizon stores and it took about 8 guys three months to trim and the original bid was a 150,000.00 plus when i seen the job it was about 85% complete and he told me with all the changes he was well over 200,000.00 no problems getting his money and this was the second house in four years he trimmed for this guy.
if you say so... thats 2k a week for each guy... $50hr...
for them I hope it's so....
I know a drug guy that paid 40k to have his car painted... I know the paint shop was happy but I bet it's the only 40k paint job they ever do...
p
I charge $65 per hour per man no matter what I do. like it or leave it.doesn't matter to me. I work mostly around columbus and $35 is wages for a good carp. we do mostly high end though. i would think a master carp would be above a head carp.
Sorry for confusing titles. By head carpenter I mean the one running the job. By master carpenter I mean an established carpenter who would come in under me, possibly w/ his crew, as a sub. By apprentice I'm pretty well speaking of guys who run base, hold the other end of the crown, and clean up.
I agree that you should get what you are worth, and also make sure you can make money.
Maybe there are less tangables that you could discuss with him and work out a partnership with him.
1. Paying your fuel, nails, misc materials, etc.
2. Work each carpenter at cost plus (that way you get paid to manage them at a fair rate that you both agree to which would increase your pay but protect you in case you have issues with labor)
Re. other carpenters, will they be 1099'd? Make sure you protect yourself and your client from uninsured people working in his home!
Sit down with the guy, discuss how he would like to do it and let him know you are flexible on the terms but would rather set up terms that work for him and then figure out how you would need to price it.
what about when you have carpenters sitting around waiting for the decorator?
What about when the decorator says you did it wrong and you have to rip it out?(that is potentially a function of how good and clear the decorator is too but sounds like you already have a feel for that)
There are a lot of variables that you want to be clear about with the client so that you both are happy in the beginning and at the end.
The only carpenters that would come in to work under me are ones that I have a previously worked w/ and know are capable and reputable, insured, etc. The resposibility of job flow, quality control, etc. are exactly why I think that my position is worth significantly more than the standard rate.
Thanks for your input
5-8 months to trim out a $3 million house?
I'm missing something here.
What are you missing? Is this too long too short in your opinion? It is all relative to the amount of work the amount of carpenters and a 3 million dollar house means total dif house in different parts of country. In California thats not much more than a double wide. In Ohio it is a 13k sq. ft house w/ alot of big heavy trim and alot of beam work.
If your thinking that isn't long enough, you might be right.
Please clarify
might not be long enough depending on crew sizeI personally don't like more than two or three other guys working on that kind of jobNo Tag
One in this area just sold for 3.77 mil at 12,000 square feet, so I'll guess we are in the same relative ball park.
8 months per man is 1280 hours x 3 is 3840 hours... if you have yourself, 1 carp and 1 helper.
8 months seems like a long time tieing up a job for trimwork. There is value, in paying more to get the job done quicker... unless he isn't financing has tons of cash and is no hurry to move in.
Now remember this is just me talking but.... If you told me the project will now wait 8 months for you to trim...... You wouldn't be trimming it.
where is "this area"?Maybe it is a a smaller house with a more elaborate trim package?do a search for posts by Brisketbean in the photos folder and lemme know if you think that stuff would take less than 5-8 months..
.
"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
.
.
.
according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
The beauty of having taken the last 20 years to build relationships w/ quality craftsmen is that it gives me a fairly large list of carpenters to draw from. I can expand and contract the number of guys on site as needed in order to speed up the process or slow it down so as to not run out of work, meaning catching up w/ the decision making process. The reason I said 5-8 mths is the supervisor himself said it will be easy 5 mths., and I forsee this job slowing down at times due to indecision. Job flow will be one of the big challenges
Another thing. 3-4 years ago I would have been worried about finding quality carps to come in and help, but w/ the economy as it is they are much more available. I've already touched base w/ several concerning this job.
"the supervisor himself said it will be easy 5 mths"
based on that alone your 8 month's is probably just about right!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
3 million dollars can buy a lot of house in most parts of ohio...No Tag
Sell yourself and tell them (him) you want $50 per hr. DON'T go lower non-negotiable. If you have gained his respect which you should have he will NOT ask for a price change. I've never been asked to lower my wage which is currently $60.00 per hr. Want & think you deserve more than go to another #. Have you ever asked your mechanic to lower his price? Or your doctor?
Hey,
I do high end work in and around Philadelphia. According to what I see around here an hourly rate of $35.00 for a "freelance" carpenter seems to be the norm. With some head carpenters charging $45.00/hr. Some millwork shops estimate their time at $75.00/hr, but it is presented as an estimate and not charged hourly.
However, if you are going to be handling the design aspects, as well as manage a crew and run a job site - $50.00 would probably be an absolute minimum.
Is there a shop providing all the millwork? If so, all the working drawings should be worked out between the shop and the designer before you start.( I am assuming from your post that there is no architect.) To try to figure things out as you go on the job that big doesn't always work out that well.
I am just coming off an 18 month, give or take, historic restoration/renovation - that kind of sounds like what you are describing. Boy it was a mess. The cabinet shop providing the milllwork got into a legal dispute with the homeowner, was fired. New shop had to be contracted. And me and my carpenters were stuck in the middle of all this.
In the end name your price, and if the guy tries to talk you down - walk away from the job, nothing good is going to come from it. Not all big jobs are a blessing.
Good luck,
Alexei .
One of those big jobs bankrupted me. They are not all a blessing.
At one time I did a lot of trim on homes of all price points. There's 3 things you can give your client, quality, price and speed. But you can only give them two of the three. If the high end home is like Skywalker Ranch, then the trim makes the home and money is no object, quality is. If the high end home is more about the number of bathrooms or refrigerators they have, then the details are generally less important to the client. Find out what sort of client you have and determine if you can give him what he wants. If you can't, walk away from the job. Don't bargain your quality out of the job. I based all my prices on linear feet, complexity and paint grade vs stain grade.
he asked you your hourly rate?? then he can't afford you..most of the time the HO have visited me on other sites to make sure they're next on the list..probably because I Show -Up,Do the finish/trim I am proud of,don't bitch about the other trades complicating my job because they (the HO ) dosen't need to hear it; when the rock is up and the painters leave I SHOW UP and finish the home..if I have to get the plumber or sparky or any other trade in for what ever reason,I do..but all the time that I'm not trimming I'm being paid...not a bad thing..I don't hire on as GC,but they know I'll handle it and they needn't worry..it WILL get done and done RIGHT..I have the HO set up an account at the lumber yard so I can get whatever I need..I charge $50/hr. out here in southern oregon and I don't leave until the job is done...no other jobs..I want the owners to be completly happy with the finished home.. I get to do a good deal of custom woodwork at most jobs so you stay focused..if you're not COMFORTABLE don't do it !! don't go to the moon on a low bid..
"he asked you your hourly rate?? then he can't afford you.."Sadly that is usually true. When someone asks pricing like that, they are usually just fishing. They don't want quality, they want a cheap price. Usually that ends up with HO requests that you cut corners, act unsafely, hand out freebies, or otherwise lower your standards. When I was starting out, I took jobs like that out of desperation and I admit to having some work out there that I am less than proud of...the worst of which was for a developer's house. Not saying it wasn't "right" but it was so dictated by the HO that it wasn't what I consider "professional". Since then, I've learned that the best jobs are the ones where the HO doesn't know much about trim carpentry but is willing to pay what you ask, allows you the freedom to do it your way, then shakes your hand and comments on your artistry at the end. If you get the feeling right off the bat that won't happen, chances are it won't be worth it.DC
>>"My rate is typically 35$ per hour, and I would be happy as a pig in mud to make that for 5-8 months on a dream job that is less than a 1/2 hr from home."
Sounds to me like you answered your own question.
In addition to what the others have said, I think you need to consider your competition, and how hungry they might be. Although you have built your reputation, so have some others -- at least a few.
And I'm thinking that competition in NE Ohio -- where Warren and Youngstown are about ready to slide into the Mahoning, and Ashtabula is not far behind -- might be formidable.
For high end trim (i.e. custom expensive precise etc):
$75/hr lead carp.
$45/hr apprentice
$500/day minimum
Billed weekly
Collected bi-weekly
Your rate doesn't count in the equation. You pay your guys whatever (usually $25-35 head carp, and $15-20 apprentice) You make what's left. The $500/day charge is to thwart indecision and confrontation by the designer and yes, it works. She knows well that if her client is getting hit $500 each day while there's no work progressing because she can't decide on an insignificant detail that she might catch flak or be replaced. You, on the other hand, are justified in charging because you are essentially "on call" while she's deliberating.
Of course, this all assumes you are efficient total perfection trim carpenters.
DC
There is an old wall street expression, Bulls get rich,, Bears get rich, but hogs get slaughtered.
Ask too much and you get nothing.. Ask too little and you get slaughtered.
Approach this like a businessman..
He who first mentions price loses..
When you meet with him explain your work standard.. the care required to do the sort of quality of work he can appreciate. The time required and the fastidious nature of the work.. Hand back beveling trim to ensure it fits properly. Trial cuts on scrap.
Explain short cuts commonly used by hacks such as use of filler instead of carefull cuts.. corners not meeting and sanded square etc..
Be prepared to talk for a long time about details and examples. He won't let you but be prepared just in case.. The longer he lets you speak the better negotiater he is or the more critical costs become.
At some point he will ask you for a budget or estimate..
You've got him now just a careful few more chess moves and you've won!
Ask him if he has a detailed trim sheet to work a budget off of. (you already know he hasn't but the question is there more to stop him from trumping your next move)
explain that's how budgets are drawn up and without it the only fair way to approach things is time and materials..
Now you do a head faint in order to shift him off balance and get him going your way..
With regard material, do like like all long runs or would you prefer me to use short cutoffs fit in to lower material costs? I can do pretty seamless joints to use the short ends but since it won't be paint grade the differance in grain will be noteable.
How he answers that question will finialize your position..
IF he says yes to short ends he's worried about prices and that will affect your numbers..
IF he says well don't make it obvious or use your best judgement etc.. your number just went up.. He's already selected you and just wants to nail down the details..
Keep talking about materials and fit and other details untill he asks you if you have a good idea of what this all will cost or some other such signal that he's tired of the details and simply wants to move on..
Now you have the perfect oppurtunity to put him into check mate. With the most clever strategy.
By seeming to be fair..
What's your mental budget?
Now you should have some vague idea of what all that work should cost. I mean what's 40 hours a week of your time worth times roughly the number of weeks required to do the job.. add a number for a SWAG of material costs and there you are.. stuck in your head..
If he gives you that number or above explain that without the detail trim sheet to work off of it's impossible to give a good estimate of the total bill but you charge $X and hour and you think you can do it around the budget he has in mind..
His last move is; "well can you bring it in at my number"?
I hope so or I believe it's possible, but to be fair to everybody how about we put a bonus on it if I can That way I get a reward if I can work more efficently.
Note the X per hour? you adjust that on your feet based on what he said to that point..
It's important that you use the steps I did because if you skip a step you can lose big time..
It took me about 1/2 to type all this up but you can do this in about 5 minutes.. practive on your wife or the mirror in the bathroom and see..
5 minutes of saying the right thing may yield you more and it won't leave anything on the table..
Frenchy, you are good. You don't know much about politics but you are good!
Frenchy is a real salesman and makes some good points.My personal opinion is that everyone says that they do top flight work. I think you need to stress that you are his advocate in the trim department and explain how you are going to make sure he gets the job he wants and the house deserves.Out of curiosity is there a general contractor on this job? It sounds like you are dealing with the owner directly. If he is acting as the general that can be a red flag regarding job efficiency. You might ask some of the workmen how the job has been going to date.John
There is no GC on this job. He does have a supervisior on site everyday who has 30+ yrs experience including many as a GC. However, there is some indication already that indecision will be one of the biggest hurdles. I know that heading in and am aware that one of my biggest jobs will be to keep things moving. The beauty of not having a crew that I employ is I can expand and contract the amount of carps on the job as needed. I agree w/ an earlier post, I don't see this as the type of job that I will want more than 4-6 guys on at a time in order to keep quality control.
Out of curiosity is there a general contractor on this job? It sounds like you are dealing with the owner directly. If he is acting as the general that can be a red flag regarding job efficiency. You might ask some of the workmen how the job has been going to date.
There is no GC on this job. He does have a supervisor on site everyday who has 30+ yrs experience including many as a GC. However, there is some indication already that indecision will be one of the biggest hurdles.
Red flags all over the place. Although it is tempting, and seems like a dream job, I suggest that you do not take this position. I did take a position like this, and regretted every second. I think you have a rich guy trying to save money and be his own GC. He thinks that construction management isn't that complicated. But you are eventually going to get stung bad by his indecision, "the high-end interior designer", the "supervisor" (just what is his job anyway), and your subs (because if you bring them to the job, they are yours). What happens if he starts complaining about how long you or the subs are taking, when you know that it is the owner and the design team #### things up. Get a clear cut scope of work, and responsibilities, or you'll be giving yourself an ulcer. I see meddling and BS right around the corner. Why isn't there a GC? At the least, why isn't there a Trim contractor with a scope, specifications, and a hard price? Walk ( no, run) away. You'll be glad.
This HO is familiar w/ construction he is involved in developing and commercial work. Everyone who has worked on the job so far has said he is good to work for and is reasonable. I have worked on big jobs before that were directly for homeowners and have some understanding of the complications it brings. I realize there is extra risk involved but overall feel good about the situation, and even the best situation can go bad.
This HO is familiar w/ construction he is involved in developing and commercial work.
Well then, if that is true, then why is indecision an issue? Big time developers know that a plan is all important, why is it different on his own house? The fact is, being a developer has more to do with wearing a suit, and getting financing, than it does knowing the differnennce between a jig-saw and a saw-zall. It may be worse, because he thinks he knows construction
Why isn't there a trim schedule? What is your job? Who oversees the other trim carpenters?
What happens if you and the supervisor do not agree? He's your boss right? You do it his way, right? How about the other subs? They are subs, so they do it the way they want as long as the finished product is what is desired, right? You can't fire them because they don't work for you, right? They work for Mr. Big.
Maybe I'm a pestimist, or maybe you have rose-colored glasses on. Being a developer doesn't make one an automatic expert on construction. If he is so knowlegeable, why wasn't he able to get one of his commercial contacts to get some high end guys to bust it out as a favor or "loss leader"?
While everyone thinks he is just a swell guy, eventually someone is going to get the sh!t end of the stick. And this stick is going to have more #### on it than most. Do you wanna be that guy?
Edited 2/15/2009 11:16 pm ET by McMark
Edited 2/15/2009 11:17 pm ET by McMark
when yall talk about 50-75$ a hour, is that what your business charge or is that what you take home in a paycheck.
I take home the $65 I charge for myself plus what ever is left over from paying my help from the $65 per hr I charged for them.:) of course I'm a SP so all other expenses I pay but I still do ok.
I am a carpenter from north east ohio who is looking to secure a large high end trim job. It is for an individual, not a contractor
I also don't want to ask him for 50$ and let him beat me all the way down to 35$. I think that looks bad, and is a bad reputation to have as a sub-contractor.
I first spotted TrimDaddy's topic over on JLC and responded to it there but since I think what I had to say might be worth looking at and debating with respect to charging more for a level of value delivered I decided to cross post it.
Trimdaddy it seems to me after re-reading your topic here and over in the BreakTime forums there are some of us (including me) that may have misread how you are really thinking about this opportunity.
I think a lot of us were thinking that you saw this project as a good opportunity or stepping stone to launch yourself into the contracting business when in reailty it's really about maximizing what you can make on this one project. When this project is over I now think you don't have any plans to take the crew you've assembled and move on to another project or projects. You're not really talking about running a legitimate business. You're really talking about an ad hoc black market underground cowboy operation, the kind that underbids and undercuts those of use who are really trying to run a business.
Or are you really talking about setting yourself up as a legitimate business and just not getting that across with the language you are using?
The reality is that while I have no real objection to anyone trying to get the maximum amount of money they can for their representative value in your case I not so sure value you can deliver is all what you think it is.
When you say:
I'm thinking that while any extra time you spend doing more than "just trim labor" you absolutely need to make sure you get compensated for I really don't think any of that necessarily justifies a higher rate.
Do you have "outstanding design skills and qualifications" or are just going to give your comments on design from a trim carpenters viewpoint about how difficult or time consuming the particular design element in question might be? I'm not sure what the big deal their is.
As for ordering materials I don't really know of any organizations that pay their office staff that order materials more than they do their field carpenters who do the installation although I sure there might be some that do out there so given that in your case you material ordering is probably not going to be on your dime anyway you are arguably going to be worth less that clerk capacity than you are worth as a skilled carpenter. Still you do need to make sure your client does compensate you for the time you do spend ordering materials regardless of whether you do it on the job or at home.
And I am wondering if by "organization" do you mean "project management"? If so are you really a skilled and qualified project manager or just someone who has risen into that position by default?
Echoing words that I written here before, just as there are some naturally good carpenters who everything seems to come naturally to there are also individuals who are naturally and innately talented at managing projects but they are just as rare as those natural carpenters. Most need training and education in project management skills and techniques or need years of experience. Unfortunately most companies rely on waiting for years of trial and error experience to set in rather than education and training so the lot of us are forced to suffer through poorly managed and scheduled projects.
Most PMs in the building and remodeling trades are what's called Accidental Project Managers which means they sort of rose in to the realm of project management by accident. For instance a particularly good carpenter is asked to ascend to "manage" a project figuring well he's a good carpenter he can probably mange too thinking they are 'one and the same thing'. Another example is where a contractor accidentally grows his company into a position where they are now managing projects. We rise into management accidentally. (The other meaning people in the project management profession give to Accidental Project Manger scenario is that they tend to manage accidentally or by accident which is unfortunately true.)
While your time spent managing the project is worth being compensated for again is it really worth more than the time you spend as a skilled trim carpenter? Are you really delivering more VALUE in a project management role than you are in as a trim carpenter? Since you mentioned over on Breaktime that:
...Just what do you see in your "organization" role as being more valuable and that would make you worth more per hour in that role than what you are worth as a good solid trim carpenter?
As for "HO slave," by that do you mean their gopher? While again I don't think you should let your client take advantage of you by getting something for free but I'm really not so sure that makes you and an hour of your time anymore valuable and worthy of a higher rate.
This criticism might seem a little harsh but if your client is successful skilled top flight business man as you say he is I think maybe you should expect these same hard but perfectly fair criticisms and questions and be prepared to answer them.
In summing up my thinking for a number of reasons I don't think you are really necessarily prepared to approach this as opportunity to jump start you into the trim carpentry business and you should just try and negotiate the best deal you can for yourself as a 1099er Independent Contractor working for your client and if down deep inside you, you do someday want to run your own business use your free time to learn more about the business of the business.
Do get yourself hooked up with Ellen Rohr's book How Much Should I Charge?: Pricing Basics for Making Money Doing What You Love so you can get yourself set up with a billing rate that works and you might also want to use my shareware Capacity Based Markup Worksheet as a tool to help you set up your rate.
Forget about trying to contract the other carpenters yourself because I think your naiveté on that issue might leave you exposed both from an insurance liability standpoint as well as on an employee vs. sub tax liability issue too. (see: JLC Update: Subcontractor Misclassification.
Instead as part of your agreement with you client say you'll agree to consult with him and make recommendations on who HE should contract and/or hire and let him pay the Workers Comp on HIS temporary employees.
And and if you do someday want to become a 'trim carpentry contractor' rather than just a 'trim carpenter' here are a few steps you might want to take.
Re:
You have got to forget about thinking about trim houses using sq. ft. price. Read my piece (The Hidden Dangers of Square Foot Estimating) and the articles it links too. Learn what Unit Cost Estimating is all about. Also you'll probably want to read Producing an Interior Finish Bid.
Then check out the reading on My Suggested Syllabus and Texts for for a Hypothetical Contracting 101 Class and also get yourself a copy of William Asdals Defensive Estimating. It hadn't yet been published when I first wrote my Contracting 101 list so that's why is not on there but I have written about it since here: Estimating Book Recommendations.
Good luck and best wishes.
View Image
"Most PMs in the building and remodeling trades are what's called Accidental Project Managers which means they sort of rose in to the realm of project management by accident."
Jerrald,
I would be inclined to agree with you. So what can one do to change this? Are you suggesting self-education, going to school to get a PM degree, or what?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
JJH — "Most PMs in the building and remodeling trades are what's called Accidental Project Managers which means they sort of rose in to the realm of project management by accident."
JonBlakemore — "Jerrald,
I would be inclined to agree with you. So what can one do to change this? Are you suggesting self-education, going to school to get a PM degree, or what?"
Well John to tell you the truth what I'd really like to see is the industry NAHB, NARI, JLV Live etc get serious about it and start to offer books, training programs that teach Critical Chain, Lean Thinking and Lean Construction that contracting businesses can put their employees through. With all due respect to Tim Faller's excellent book and the seminars he gives which really contain some valuable information that's not really what I am talking about.
There is just an absolute dearth of material on real project management, planning, and scheduling that will speak to contractors and their personnel in a language they'll understand and relate to. Unfortunately if do something like send an employee through PMP (Project Management Professional) certification 98% of them will think "what a #$!*ing waste of time" and never glean what was valuable in it and related to building and remodeling because it isn't presented in the format of building and remodeling projects.
Contractor buy project management software all the time thinking it will help them and it rarely does because they don't know the skills, language, and tools of project management. I'm sure there isn't a trained experienced professional carpenter out there that will say you can give a Festool Kapex to the average Joe on the street and that will make him a carpenter but they still seem to think that if they just buy MS Project or FastTrack or Merlin they'll be expert project managers.
You know I can only think of 3 books (Project Scheduling and Management for ConstructionView Image, Ten Steps to Increase Jobsite ProductivityView Image, and Construction Management JumpStartView Image
) that really have anything to say about Construction Management scheduling and even in them there is an implicit endorsing of "padded Critcal Chain Schedules" and they never address using Critcal Chain techniques.
Here's a quick sketch I just did comparing two schedules with three tasks that each task is expected to consume 3 days of Effort. Becuase everyone knows you can't expect everything to go along perfectly and sometimes things just take longer than expected some "padding" needs to be introduced to the schedule to protect the due date. In the "Padded Critical Path" timeline I've done what most people do and have added extra time to each tasks planned Duration to allow for problems. Because not every task goes haywire and awry on projects we really don't need to give every task that "padding" becuase they may not need or use it. Compare that to the Critical Chain schedule below which is based on "average time" we expect a task to take that we then pad with a common shared Project Buffer at the end of the project that task that run longer than average can then "pull time" from to protect the project due date. Which schedule method will allow a contractor to do more projects in a year? And which schedule method will deliver more value (projects done quicker) to our customers?
View Image
Click for a larger view
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to rant Jon.
View Image
Edited 2/16/2009 7:50 pm ET by JerraldHayes
You're not really talking about running a legitimate business. You're really talking about an ad hoc black market underground cowboy operation, the kind that underbids and undercuts those of use who are really trying to run a business
That's it exactly, so this so-called successful businessman who is familiar with construction can cut a few corners and wrongfully save some money. I've been there, and with this "high maintenance interior designer", you gotta charge alot, or they'll make your life hell.
for all the responsibility you need to take on it appears you need to be compensated beyond your normal working rate.
If your subs paychecks are coming from you then you will have a responsibility to collect ins. certs and 1099ing them. a modest mark-up will cover that time you will spend on your off days
Also an hourly arraingement implies little or no warrantee. all damages or screw-ups will be corrected at the same hourly rate. if your client wants a warrantee then they need to pay into your contingincy fund like any legit business.
from what I can gather you deserve $50 hr minimum plus you should make $10/hr for each underling you will be directing. then a 15% mark-up for all materials charged to your accounts.
lets say you have 5 subs, that would be your $50 an hour plus another $50 an hour on them plus your material mark-up and your warrantee fund. yes, that is a little greedy and you know it would not fly. but from this perspective I think you could easily negotiate yourself into the next tax bracket and have the HO write all of the checks
maverick — "...from what I can gather you deserve $50 hr minimum plus you should make $10/hr for each underling you will be directing."
Speaking from my point of view as a Project Manager/ GC if someone campaigning for a hired gun freelance gig working for me as a carpentry supervisor ever told me that they wanted "$10/hr for each" for each $20 to $35 per hour 1099 "underling" they had to supervise that I was paying for I would laugh for a week as they walked down the street without the gig.
View Image
Here is a link to a local that didn't take 8 months to trim. Whudda ya think?
The 30' waterfall in the basement is kinda cool....
Don't forget to click more photos at the bottom of page.
http://www.stapfcustomhomes.com/greenbrier.html
Ca-Ching-I'll take two. Not exactly and intimate home now is it.........
A couple things about working directly with the client in this situation:
They will be concerned about actual cost, BUT are more concerned with final value. Thus the quality is the real issue, 9 times out of 10;
If this guy is a business person, he is used to negotiating. It doesnt mean you have to however, it just means you shouldn't worry about his attitude about it!
The largest client I have came to me 20 years ago, and I told how much I'd charge, take it or leave. he took it, and has never looked back. With another client, I did a lot of custom work for a cardiologist in North NJ and after a while, they never asked me for a price, I just did the work and submitted a bill. Never once got a complaint.
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
I was not comfortable with doing the complex crown in my kitchen - each cut had to be perfect because it was finish grade painted that would show every speck of touch up -- guy I hired ran about 30 feet with a helper in two days -- top of cabinet to the ceiling - he said he normally charges $125 and hour but gave me a break at $115 - it is way better than I could do and it is done -- I am satisfied --
Thinking if your are very good in DC you can get what you want and 75-95 for just crown is possible but not for just hanging cabinets
Dudley,If you need more crown installed, give me a call. ;o)Here in the hinterlands, I charge $60/hr. for rather complicated work... I guess the cost of living is lower here... but not the heating bill part.Cheers,Bass
$115/hr. per man or for the crew of two men?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
crew of 2 men -- lead and a very experienced helper -- the lead did all the measuring and all of the cutting