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Discussion Forum

Hunting cabin–shingles or metal roof?

Danno | Posted in General Discussion on September 23, 2007 11:39am

Just returned from two days at my dad’s little cabin that he and I and relatives use for a hunting camp. Roof should have been replaced about five or ten years ago and is trashed (leaking, was covered with moss which we scraped off, boards rotting and seedligs growing in the valley–mushrooms growing inside the cabin on underside of deck boards in the valley).

Dad says he has no money to replace this roof, but…my feeling is, replace it or kiss the whole building goodbye. I’ve been on his case for about ten years to reshingle the roof. Now we’ll have to strip roof, replace deck and fascia boards, rafter tails and then reshingle. A counsin who hunts with us and has helped maintain the place says we should go with a metal roof.

There is a metal roof on the garage, but it is very rusty. I think it was put on in the 60’s and has had no maintenance other than sweeping leaves and pine needles off once a year. The “cabin” is small–original building is uninsulated wood frame on crawlspace, about 18′ square with a smaller addition (10′ x 12′) on the front and a porch and bathroom on the side (this addition is maybe 6′ and runs the length of one side (18′). It’s all heated with two wood burning stoves.

There are two valleys that are the major problem and I would use ice shield and metal in them and ice shield at the overhangs. Cousin says valleys in metal roofs can be difficult to make watertight. We have enough trouble with leaks now and I’ve never done a metal roof, so I’m reluctant to try now, though it would shed leaves and snow better and moss probably wouldn’t grow on a metal roof. (I would do open valleys with galvanized sheetmetal so leaves and stuff don’t collect as they do now.

What do you all think? Recommendations? How much more expensive is a steel roof than shingles? I suppose I’d have to skip sheath or fir before using metal?

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Replies

  1. Piffin | Sep 24, 2007 12:51am | #1

    "W style valley metal and a decent pitch and metal is fine.

    You didn't specify what pitch this is.

     

     

    Welcome to the
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    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
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    1. Danno | Sep 24, 2007 02:02am | #2

      I'm guessing the pitch is 4/12--I can stand and walk on it, but wouldn't want it much steeper. But now that I think about the height of the peak compared to half the width, it could be as much as 6/12.

      1. DougU | Sep 24, 2007 04:33am | #3

        Danno

        I think I'd opt for the metal roof as well, easier to maintain with the moss and leaves.

        Where you at? Couldnt you get some metal roofing at one of the big box stores for cheap? I cant imagine the valley being that difficult to do.

        Doug

        1. Danno | Sep 24, 2007 02:14pm | #6

          The place is on the west side of Michigan--no big cities near it, but there is a hardware/lumberyard in a small town near it. I don't know if we could get enough roofing in a pickup to do the job--if so we could bring it from a big box store where I live.

  2. User avater
    Luka | Sep 24, 2007 11:46am | #4

    Metal is the way to go.

    Run grace I&W in the valley, to two feet out on both sides.

    Lay a metal valley over that,

    Now roof the rest of the roof as normal with metal, overlapping the metal valley.

    That roof will probably outlast you, if you do the grace and the valley correctly.


    Yeh... That'll work.

    1. Danno | Sep 24, 2007 02:22pm | #7

      Thanks for the info. I am all for only doing this once! I do think with the problem with moss and pine needles collecting on the roof that metal would be better--the slope is good enough that everything should slide right off--I have enough trouble not sliding off of the shingles. Though that makes me wonde--if I have to get up there to fix the chimney or something, how to stay up there. I guess some "stickier" soled shoes may work.

      How do you cut the metal roofing--power nibbler-type shears or circular saw or what?

      1. User avater
        Luka | Sep 24, 2007 02:29pm | #9

        I'm-a tellin you, I certainly know from cabins in the woods, and problems with moisture and roofs... LOLHaving a good roof is the first and most important line of defense out here.If you have a good roof, everything else is easier to maintain. And a metal roof is the best roof I have seen. Bar none. For this kind of situation.If you do it right, I doubt you'll ever have to touch it again in your lifetime.You can cut the roofing with a circsaw and good plywood blade. Or metal cutting blade. Or you can use a grinder and suitable wheel. Or you can use ordinary shears. Or a nibbler.. Whatever.I'd kind of like to get an air powered nibbler. They are a lot slower, but they do not distort the metal, and can make more precise cuts.

        Yeh... That'll work.

        1. Danno | Sep 24, 2007 03:01pm | #10

          Thanks again. Now I just have to convince my dad to do it! My sister's been having financial problems (mostly due to her having to do everything her way and having to always "travel first class" and making stupid decisions, but that's another story) and he's been shelling out the money to rescue her and claims he has no money for this. I have no money either, but may have to find some, because this has to be done.

          1. User avater
            Luka | Sep 24, 2007 03:12pm | #11

            I'll be breaking out the credit card to do the same this week, myself.I'm finally building that carport type roof over the trailer.Instead of trying to follow the flat, then slope, then flat, roof contour of the 5th wheeler... I am going to just make two shed roofs. One overlaps the other a bit.I'll only get it framed and sheated, then cover that with 6mil plastic and doubled up heavy duty tarps for the winter, but I'll be putting metal on, next summer.

            The big thing for now is keeping as much rain off as possible, and having some protection from branches.Branches caved in my roof twice last winter. I can't wait to get moved out of this trailer and into that one. That roof should be plenty enough protection from most branches. Once I get the metal on, next year, it'll be even better.

            Yeh... That'll work.

          2. Danno | Sep 24, 2007 03:45pm | #12

            Good luck with that. Sounds like the two shed roofs is the way to go.

            I think our roof will last till next summer--I thought about putting some tar on, but hardly know where to start! Would need about ten gallons! If we have rain while hunting, I may get a blue tarp and put it up. What ticks me off is that if we'd have done this back when it was just getting bad, instead of now, we wouldn't have to replace so many boards and so on. But...if I had done it earlier, I'm sure I would have used shingles and I'd be about ready to have to do it all again in that case. The acidic pine needles and oak leaves and the moss really take a toll on shingles!

          3. [email protected] | Sep 25, 2007 03:40am | #25

            Since you are redoing the substructure, would it be possible to rearrange things to eliminate or at least lessen the valleys?

          4. todd | Sep 24, 2007 07:48pm | #16

            Around these parts there's a place that sells "seconds" in painted metal. Just cosmetic imperfections, stuff is less than half the price of standard.I also once bought a pile of used metal (good condition, though) on the cheap to use on an outbuilding. If you're pinched for cash, just another couple ideas.Todd

          5. Danno | Sep 24, 2007 08:43pm | #17

            Good idea about the "seconds"--it's a hunting cabin, we're not that concerned with a few blemishes! (Can't even be seen from the road, much less from "my house".)

          6. todd | Sep 24, 2007 09:49pm | #22

            Agreed.

    2. TJK | Sep 26, 2007 03:41am | #43

      "Metal is the way to go. Run grace I&W in the valley,"The standard Grace I&W Shield is not for use under dark metal roofs or in climates with high Summer temps because the adhesive can melt. We're supposed to use the "Ultra" stuff that nobody stocks. It has a different adhesive base that won't turn to soup above 165F.

  3. User avater
    Matt | Sep 24, 2007 01:56pm | #5

    What's the price of metal vs regular fiberglass asphalt shingles?

    1. Danno | Sep 24, 2007 02:28pm | #8

      Price is something I was asking you all about--I have no clue. I'll call Lowes just to get ballpark idea. I think even if it's a little more expensive, it may well be worth it as far as maintenance and durability. Seems like we've been having little leaks since I can remember. Ice dams are a real probabilty because we mainly use it in the winter and there is absolutley no insulation, and of course, it had "cathedral ceilings"--by that I mean the underside of the roof deck is the "ceiling".

      1. User avater
        CapnMac | Sep 24, 2007 06:00pm | #15

        I'll call Lowes just to get ballpark idea

        You might check under Farm Supply (it's Farm & Ranch supply in our yellow pages) for you local equivalent to McCoy's. 

        The farm & ranch suppliers are "used to" selling to folks who have little spare cash, but need lasting value.  Sometimes, that can be an advantage.  Like if they ask you do you want to figure in fasteners (and/or the washers V-drip & double-v-drip roofing can often "want" in a good installation).

        Luka's concern about the I&W prep under the roof if is good, too.  Sure, this is an under-occupied "camp" structure, but, keeping the water out means spending a lot more time using the building rather than fixing it.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

        1. Danno | Sep 24, 2007 08:46pm | #19

          Didn't think about farm supply places. may also see if anyone knows who did the garage roof--I don't think it was do-it-yourself.

          1. Piffin | Sep 24, 2007 09:42pm | #21

            You're getting some good ideas. When you know whaty knid you are using, come back and we'll go over some tips how too. It is not near as hard to do right as frenchy would have you think. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          2. bobtim | Sep 24, 2007 09:50pm | #23

            When I use to do a lot of Delta Rib exposed screw rooofing, the stuff always came in a crate. The manufacture always protected the ordered roofing with the same stuff except it was a diffrent color. So the roofers always got 2 free sheets (I'm sure somebody really paid for them).

            I did a few striped cabins. Easier to identify from a plane.

      2. Piffin | Sep 24, 2007 09:36pm | #20

        It used to be that metal roofing was one of the less expensive choices when reckoned on a per square foot per year of life expectancy basis, but steel went sky high a few years ago, so I am not sure how it all stacks up now.I usually use my large tin snips for a lot of cutting metal roofing. Nibbler is certainly the finest, but kinda costly for a onetime job unless you like buying tools - or can borrow one. I have donme a lot by cutting from the back side with a circ saw, plywood blade running backwards, and hand, eye, and ear protection. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  4. frenchy | Sep 24, 2007 03:50pm | #13

    Danno,

       Slate or some other stone would be the most durable roof. Now price dictates that isn't going to happen..

     simple basic rolled roofing would be the cheapest but require replacement quickly..

      shingles are a slight improvement over rolled roofing and metal can be better if it's properly installed and the right sort selected..  25 to 30 years is the max for cheaper stuff the better stuff can last 30 plus years.. 

     I glossed right over the properly installed! 

      I've seen too many do-it-yourself jobs that leak like a sieve  for me to give unquailified endorsement to metal roofing unconditionally.

     If you don't have an experianced installer don't do it yourself..

    This from the king of do-it-yourself!

         To find a good metal roofer ask local farmers with metal roofs.. the ones who have nice dry barns and sheds will gladly steer you in the right direction.    The ones with leakers will tell you that as well..  drive around in the surrounding countryside and when you see a good looking roof pull in and ask, don't be surprised if they ask you in for a cup of coffee while they look up the number for you..

    1. Danno | Sep 24, 2007 08:45pm | #18

      Good ideas--I'll see what the guy who cut trees on our land knows--he works all over that area doing logging.

  5. arrowshooter | Sep 24, 2007 03:59pm | #14

    I would use metal but I would find a supplier who makes painted metal roofing. It usually comes 36 inches wide and they will make it any length and color you specify.

    We have a local guy here who buys the metal in big rolls and all  colors then runs it through a forming machine and cuts it to any length you want. He also makes valley and ridge metal and other shapes.

    Home Depot sells it special order but I can get a better deal with the local guy usually without waiting.

    Avoid the cheap galvanized 24 inch stuff Home Depot sells it is flimzy and will rust out over time.

    The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
    Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
    Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
    Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."
    - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

     

  6. User avater
    Dinosaur | Sep 25, 2007 03:23am | #24

    There's a few considerations you have to think over before you can take this decision.

    Steel is a lot more expensive than asphalt shingles. Depending on the quality and gauge of steel, it may or may not outlast a 30-year asphalt shingle. (OTOH, a '30-year' asphalt shingle may or may not be a figure of speech, no matter what the manufacturer claims today....)

    What usually goes first on screw-down roofing is the neoprene washers on the screws. They will dry out and start to leak long before the roof itself rusts through. (I have two jobs currently on the schedule which need the steel re-screwed; one is 9 years old and the other is about 17 years old.) The screws come pre-painted to match the roofing and with the neoprene washers installed; they cost me 11 cents a piece in bulk bags of 500, and you need approximately 60-80 screws per square.

    Another consideration with steel roofing is that you can lay it on skip sheathing, so that could save a lot in materials for redoing the roof deck of the cabin. You can lay a rough-cut 1x4 or 1x6 every 2 feet up the rafters and screw your steel down to that. (You should also sheathe the valleys and lay flashing and membrane under the joint. As mentioned, screwdown steel doesn't seal worth a crud in valleys.)

    You might also look in scrap yards for the old-style corrugated, galvanised roofing. This stuff is much heavier than modern screwdown ribbed steel and a lot of it gets scrapped long before it has to be because it looks old and rusty. If you can find some in a scrap yard it should be fairly cheap and is still perfectly capable of keeping the weather out with proper installation.

    Finally, you might want to consider roofing it with shakes...but split the shakes yourself from wood cut right on the site of the cabin. Cedar is the best if you have the trees to spare in good sizes. That option would save you the most money, and you'll learn a few things and enjoy yourselves along the way.

    Dinosaur

    How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
    low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
    foolish men call Justice....

    1. User avater
      Luka | Sep 25, 2007 01:04pm | #31

      "Finally, you might want to consider roofing it with shakes...but split the shakes yourself from wood cut right on the site of the cabin. Cedar is the best if you have the trees to spare in good sizes. That option would save you the most money, and you'll learn a few things and enjoy yourselves along the way."Should he forge the nails himself, as well ? Maybe out of old coat hangers ?He could have a party, and have all the guests decorate the shakes before they are installed.;o)I'm gonna start calling you Martha.=0)Be: It's a good thing.

      Yeh... That'll work.

      1. User avater
        Dinosaur | Sep 25, 2007 06:07pm | #33

        Should he forge the nails himself, as well ? Maybe out of old coat hangers ?

        No, he should use HT-65 staples.

         

        Staples instead of nails because (a) they hold very well, (b) there's less risk of splitting the shakes with staples than there is with thicker-shanked roofing nails, and (c) they go on fast without need for a generator and compressor.

         

        Splitting shakes is no big deal. Cut the logs to length with a chainsaw, get a shingle froe and a 4-lb sledge and a helper. I can split a bundle of shakes (20 sq.ft.) in about 20 minutes. Considering that a bundle of #1 blue label currently retails for $56, that's wages of about $150 per hour.

        Dinosaur

        How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

        1. frenchy | Sep 25, 2007 07:07pm | #34

          Dinosauer,  Now you tell me!

           after I just bought and paid  (and just about completely installed)   nearly 120 sq. of cedar shakes. I paid $229 a square so at that rate  I could have saved my self well over $20,000. 

            that assumes I spend about $5000 driving out west and buying some red cedar logs..

            Out of couriosity how many logs does it take to make a bundle or a square? 

          1. User avater
            Dinosaur | Sep 26, 2007 07:41am | #48

            how many logs does it take to make a bundle or a square? 

            Depends on how fat the logs are.

            Figure you don't want to split them any thicker than ¾". If you start with a 14" dia log and make every split perfectly, that'll give you 16 usable shakes ¾" thick: 2 each at 14, 13-15/16, 13-11/16, 13¼, 12-5/8, 11-13/16; 10¾ and 9¼ wide. That's a bit over 70" of width with an exposure of 7½", so yield is about 3½ SF. In a perfect world, of course, LOL....

            The shakes I used last week to roof over a brick bread oven were #1 hand-split & resawn mediums (½" thick at the fat end); I used the resawn ones because they lie better on a small roof. If you want to resaw your shakes, you split them twice as thick as you want, and run them through a big, gnarly bandsaw with a special jig to hold them on the proper angle.

            Resawing changes the time investment substantially, of course.

            Dinosaur

            How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

        2. User avater
          Luka | Sep 25, 2007 08:16pm | #35

          I'm glad you didn't get upset.Your information was/is excellent.It was your presentation that reminded me of Martha.;o)

          Yeh... That'll work.

        3. Piffin | Sep 26, 2007 06:56am | #47

          "less risk of splitting the shakes with staples than there is with thicker-shanked roofing nails, "One should not ever use roofing nails for wood shingles.
          There are thin shanked shingle nails made for that to prevent splitting. When a shingle nail splits a shake or shingle, it is because it is overdriven by an unskilled hammer operator.
          Roofing nails are for composition shingles. 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          1. User avater
            Dinosaur | Sep 26, 2007 08:05am | #49

            Thanks, Paul. I didn't know such nails existed. I suppose I should have, but since I use staples it never became an issue for me. And of course, the local big box doesn't stock them.

            What's even more depressing is that I know from experience convincing the idjits in charge that it makes no sense to stock shakes without stocking the proper nails isn't gonna happen.

             

            Dinosaur

            How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

        4. User avater
          Sphere | Sep 28, 2007 01:51am | #58

          Note to self, "don't loan TH my froe"  Dude, ya NEVER hit a froe with a sledge, never. A Maul is what ya use.  A maul is basically a hunk o' dogwood or Hickry or other tuff stuff about forearm diametre ( I spelt it right for you) and necked down at the grippage area.

          A sledge will mushroom theback of the froe, which will cause it to stick when you switch from glutting to hand levering.

          This concludes our lessson..Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

          "If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"

  7. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Sep 25, 2007 03:47am | #26

    What do you all think?

    First thing that comes to mind, with an open roof cabin, is the drumming noise the rain would make on a metal roof.  I have a lease on a commercial space with a metal roof.  It gets loud in there when it rains hard. 

    I'd opt for repairing and resheathing the roof, over the repairs and old 1x6, then reshingling.  Materials costs are about $125-$150/square, total.  Or $75-$100/sq. without the new sheathing.  All depends on how bad the old 1X6 is.



    Edited 9/24/2007 10:09 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter

    1. Danno | Sep 25, 2007 04:03am | #27

      Thanks for the replies--you've got me thinking! Ouch--didn't want to have to think!

      I'll talk it over with Dad and my cousin who has experience with pole barns and such and has probably done some steel roofing.

      As I said, the garage roof has held up fairly well, though it is rusting now. It has the exposed screws with neoprene washers. When I talked to Dad tonight he said, "Well, the shingles have held up for almost 40 years!" I said, "Well, there are still shingles up there, but I don't know that I'd say they've 'held up' for 40 years." Last twenty have been pretty questionable.

      1. Stilletto | Sep 25, 2007 02:32pm | #32

        Dinosaur brings up good points about the screw down steel.  I try to avoid it on roofs when possible.  The washers can and do fail often.  All it takes is one to be overtightened a little and it's not water proof. 

        I would look into a 40 yr shingle with ice and water shield on the entire roof.  Thats what I do on the Ducks Unlimited cabins I build in the remote parts of the state (MI). 

        The buildings have minimal insulation and are only heated for a small time frame of the year.  The worst times,  fall and winter. 

        Invest in a little insulation and the worries of ice dams and leaks will be reduced. 

        Matt

        1. User avater
          coonass | Sep 26, 2007 12:48am | #36

          Stilletto,I do quite a bit of screw down metal roofs and have no problems with screws.I use galvilume overcup screws. Very little of the 1/4 " neoprene washer shows. No rust, no leaks, no callbacks.Only been doing this since '77 so maybe I'll get some leaks soon.KK

          1. Stilletto | Sep 26, 2007 12:57am | #37

            If it works for you then keep on rocking.  But this is a cabin out in the middle of nowhere.  A leak goes undetected for quite some time in these remote locations.   By the time you get back for next hunting season it's already rotted a hole in the subfloor. 

            Steel is good choice,  but for the price difference I would go with the 40 yr shingles and the ice and water shield.  Then put the difference into shotgun shells and hunting liscenses. 

            Matt

          2. User avater
            Luka | Sep 26, 2007 02:57am | #40

            Ken,Can you give us a link to those screws ?I can't find them on google.

            Yeh... That'll work.

          3. User avater
            coonass | Sep 26, 2007 05:03am | #45

            Can't find a link to what I use. Will check with yard to find out brand.KK

          4. User avater
            Luka | Sep 26, 2007 05:06am | #46

            Thank you.

            Yeh... That'll work.

          5. User avater
            coonass | Oct 02, 2007 05:38am | #71

            Luka.Took a while but here is the screw we use. Atlas Ultimate.http://www.atlasfasteners.com/ultimate.htmKK

          6. User avater
            Luka | Oct 02, 2007 06:20am | #72

            Cool !Thank you Ken.=0)

            Yeh... That'll work.

    2. bobtim | Sep 25, 2007 04:17am | #28

      Good point about the noise. Nobody thinks of it cause things are usually insulated.

      1. User avater
        MarkH | Sep 25, 2007 04:44am | #29

        Try sleeping in a pretty much uninsulated tin roofed shack under a apple tree in the fall of the year.

        BANG                     BANG            BANG                    BANG        BANG         BANG      BANG               

        1. bobtim | Sep 25, 2007 08:43am | #30

          I'm sorry, did you say something? I've got my earplugs in.

  8. ponytl | Sep 26, 2007 01:09am | #38

    get a cut sheet right off of your existing roof...   look in the yellow pages under metal buildings or metal building products... call the sales counter... tell them what you have and that you aren't picky about color... they might have some overun or seconds... because you won't need much... 7-8 sq max the way i read your post...

     and most of your stuff will be pretty short...  these sheets will cover 36" each.. so they will go up fast...  bo on the lookout for scraps or a deal on any foam board you can find... screw your nailers to whatever framing you can... and lay the foam board between your nailers...  will add some insulation and quite the roof down alot...

    stack your sheets for any given section and predrill for your fasteners... goes quicker and they all line up nice when gang drilled...

    2x2 or 2x4 nailers.... i've mostly used 2x2 and i use 1 1/2" screws

    good luck... with a little help and if the repair stuff isn't too bad... i'd say a one good weekend and you'll be done (proper planning helps)

    p

    1. User avater
      Matt | Sep 26, 2007 01:47am | #39

      That's a good idea about getting some overstock, or whatever metal roofing.

      Re the foam board, would that mean it would end up being exposed to the interior?

    2. Danno | Sep 26, 2007 03:09am | #41

      Thanks for the reply--didn't think about foam under the metal--that would quiet it down. More to think about, yipes!

      1. DougU | Sep 26, 2007 03:27am | #42

        Danno

        There is a guy in the little town that I just bought my new old house in that just bought a grainery building and is in the process of converting it to a house.

        It had corragated metal on the roof, probably been there for 40 to 50 years - these guys dont do much in terms of maintenace and they figure its been at least 40 plus years. DID NOT have a leak in it and didnt have any of the newer fancy neopreme washer screws that we have now.

        The guy tore all of the tin off and layed down 2 X's with pink insulation board( I dont know the name of the stuff ) inbetween and then ice and water over that followed by his new tin roof with the fancy screws. I doubt that this thing is going to leak any more then the previous roof did.

        People have been putting corragated tin roofs on for a lot of years without fail so I dont think I would be scared to do another one!

        Doug

      2. ponytl | Sep 26, 2007 03:54am | #44

        i happened upon  :)  some of the blue foam board when i was doing a building... 4x8 sheets  1.5" thick... some corneres were broken so i got it at a fair price...

        it had scores to snap it every 16"  so that was my guild for the nailers... screw down a nailer... slide the foamboard into place push the next nailer up to it... ect... kept the foam tight and i did no measure'n the 1.5" was the same thickness as my 2x2 nailers... so it filled the void..

        easier to find "stuff" if you have an idea of what the next project will require...

        adjust project design to fit your finds :)

        p

  9. User avater
    Matt | Sep 27, 2007 04:56am | #50

    So, how did the metal VS regular fiberglass/asphalt shingles price out?

    1. Stilletto | Sep 27, 2007 12:43pm | #51

      In my area of MI,  it's $50 for 30 yrs,  $65 a sq for 40 yrs,  and it's $120 a sq for steel.  That was the pricing I came up with when I did the Toy Barn in the Photo Gallery. 

      Matt

      1. User avater
        Matt | Sep 27, 2007 01:00pm | #52

        And just to clarify, that is for materials only....

        1. Stilletto | Sep 27, 2007 01:05pm | #53

          Yes sir,  materials only without any markup either. 

          Shingles were Certainteed dimensional,  can't remember the gauge of steel.  But it was factory coated with a 25 year finish.  Which is quite a stretch in our climate with the Ice and snow that comes sliding off the roof when you turn the heat on. 

           

          Matt

    2. Danno | Sep 27, 2007 09:54pm | #54

      Just checked a web site that said $150-$600 per square for metal depending on quality. Called HD and got a price of $15.60 per bundle of shingles with the anti-moss granules in them, so that'd be X3 or about $47 for a square. Anyway, my dad is saying he's not paying for metal so someone after him can have a nice roof (he's 88 years old). So, it looks pretty much like it's going to be asphalt shingles. He keeps talking about selling the place, so I guess he's right--no sense in giving the new owner a really nice roof!

      1. Stray | Sep 27, 2007 10:24pm | #55

        This is unsolicited advice....sorry in advance, but:

        Don't let him sell!

        Those kinds of places should stay in the family.  If you have any interest, tell him so; and work out a payment plan.  Your downpayment could be this roof for instance...

        payment plans with him are likely to be more flexible/favorable than a bank ever will be.  This might be your best opportunity to have a huntin' shack for the next generation....

         

          

        1. Danno | Sep 27, 2007 10:57pm | #56

          The problem as he sees it is that none of us boys have any children--my oldest brother isn't married and my other brother and I have stepdaughters that have no interest in the cabin. My youngest sister lives out of state and isn't interested and my other sister isn't interested, though at one time Dad was thinking that her son may like it, but he is more interested in playing video games than in going outside where there is ugh, weather and dirt and stuff. So, just giving it one of his kids is not that popular with him, since after us there is no one. Plus, my brothers all live out of state and are not interested in maintaining it, just going there to relax and they want me to have it ready when they decide to visit it every five or ten years. I told Dad to give it to my cousin who really likes to hunt, but Dad says it's too valuable and his kids wouldn't want it either. The guy who logged it expressed an interest in buying the land and Dad will probably end up selling it to him. Then my cousin would have to build a place on his land to hunt from.

          My cousin and I both know that this land alone is valuable--has quite a big woods and was recently logged and Dad made a good chunk of change, but apparently didn't save any to put back into maintenance. My cousin already owns adjacent land and has made money off of logging that.  At the moment, unfortunately, I see it as just one more headache--something that hasn't been maintained and now it'd be up to me to drive over there and keep it up when I have enough trouble keeping my own house from falling in around my ears. I'm no longer that keen on hunting and Dad knows it and that ticks him off--what kind of a man isn't crazy about hunting? So....

          1. frenchy | Sep 28, 2007 01:45am | #57

            Danno,

              The value of the place will rise with inflation,  if you can somehow aquire it from your father in a way that is fair to all concerned.  even if you don't hunt it could be a place where your daughters go to take pictures, paint flowers, or scenery,, whatever...  you can use it as a place to get away and down the road the trees that remained after the logging will grow into another harvestable crop.. at your fathers age you can proabably work out some sort of payment plan which  you couldn't get from a bank  Your father would consider your interest in the land as an endorsement of his choices rather than as a repudiation.

              I happen to agree with him on metal versis aspault, buy a OK shingle and put it up,, someone might simply buy the place and tear down what's there and build a decent get away.. sometime in the future..

          2. Danno | Sep 28, 2007 03:15am | #59

            You are probably right--the land is valuable and the trees will continue to grow and can be harvested every ten years or so and it is a nice place to get away and I like to write and paint and could go there (there are some fantastic views from the high bank where the old loggers rolled the logs down into the river). Right now I see it mostly as a maintenance headache, but if we were to get caught up, it wouldn't be too bad. I have ideas for more low-maintenance materials and so on, so maybe I'll try to convince Dad. My brothers are no help--they were all upset when he said he wanted to sell it and told me to tell him how much I wanted it! I told them they could buy it from him and that was the last I heard out of them! One said he might be willing to chip in on the cost of the new roof.

          3. frenchy | Sep 28, 2007 06:02am | #60

            Danno,

             This is more to your father than a simple decision to sell or not.. It's his way to verify  that his choice wasn't wasted, his efforts weren't wasted. At this stage in his life that is critical.  Do you endorse his decision and his past choices or do you use your own interests and desires to repudiate his life?   Parents would love it if they felt their lives weren't wasted on ungreatful children..  They need that sort of support as they look ahead to the grim future..   

          4. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Sep 28, 2007 01:40pm | #61

            Nice insight there, frenchman.  My hat's off to you.

          5. Piffin | Sep 28, 2007 02:21pm | #62

            Every now and then, you come thru with a real gem, frenchy!May you be blessed with children who appreciate all the special efforts you have put into your manse 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          6. Danno | Sep 28, 2007 02:26pm | #63

            Well, I think he wanted us all to protest more when he said he'd sell the porperty and do more to keep it. But, like I said, my brothers protested a bit, then prety much gave in when I told them I wasn't leading the charge. He's upset that only I still hunt and I do it mostly to keep him company (and to finally kill the deer wounded by others who hunt and can't seem to kill the deer).

            I guess he feels bad about a lot of stuff, but mostly that my sister, who has received a lot of money from him to bail her out of bad choices and some unfortunate circumstances not entirely of her own making, doesn't even want to see him (she made that clear when she and her son both very reluctantly showed up for a couple hours a month ago--showed up late and said she didn't know where any restaurants are and she and her son were hungry--so Dad took them out to eat). Dad hasn't seen my oldest brother since he deigned to visit the year after Dad's stroke. He once told Dad that there is nothing back in his home town to come back for.

            My sister reluctantly visited him in the hospital after his stroke, after asking me why we couldn't have him released for the afternoon to go home because she knew how to get to his house and not how to get to the hospital. She wanted me there so she could call if she got lost and maybe meet her in the lobby if she couldn't find his room. She didn't want me to tell him she was coming--wanted to surprise him. She told me she'd arrive at noon. When she got there closer to five, I asked her what was the hold up and she said she had to get her car washed and get her son's haircut before she left Ann Arbor that day.

          7. frenchy | Sep 28, 2007 04:04pm | #64

            Danno,

             It's clear your family like all families has issues to deal with.  Trust me we all do, otherwise soap operas wouldn't be so popular.

               If this place has meant something to your father do him the honor of making it important to you, you likely as not you have little time left with him and trust me when he's gone you'll spend a long time missing him.. I know I do my own father. It's been 36 years since his passing and at times it's so real that I talk to him just like he was still here.. It's not the same though..

  10. GregGibson | Sep 28, 2007 06:40pm | #65

    I'm with Frenchy, too, Danno.  I missed the total acreage, or even what State you're in.  I've managed to buy two old family farms, one from my Dad's side and one about two miles away from my Mom's side.  The land has been in the family since the 1930's.

    Land rent pays the property taxes, with some left over.  As an investment, it's a very poor choice.  But the land itself means a lot to me, and as the saying goes, they're not making it any more. 

    There are some new Forestry Incentive Programs from the USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service.  Down here in Georgia, they''re trying to re-establish the Longleaf Pine.  I signed up 28 acres, and I'll get $ 100 an acre initially, then they basically pay me the prevailing land rent for 15 years.  I'm taking some cropland out of farming, but I don't have to deal with anyone on my property.

    It's great to have a place to go, and you already have something I'm working on when I have an open weekend - a cabin.

    I'd encourage you to look into a way to make it work.  One idea would be owner-financing on your Dad's part, with the contract written to give the monthly payment in a shared way to each of the brothers and sisters at his death.  That might appeal to him.

    Greg

    1. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Sep 28, 2007 07:17pm | #66

      Danno,

      May I suggest that put your best into this roofing job, keeping a positive attitude by remembering all the good times you've had there while forgetting or dismissing thoughts of your siblings and their selfish obsessions.  See if that approach doesn't give you something back. 

      Then, after you've completed the job, see how you feel about the experience of being there.  We all need a really quiet place for reflection and to refresh our minds through direct contact with a natural environment.  You've said that much in your own way.

      If you then feel more positive about the place, tell you dad that you'd like to have it, after he's gone.  Among other good things, it could become a great place to be close to him in spirit, whenever you feel that need. 

      1. Danno | Sep 29, 2007 04:19am | #68

        Yeah, despite his flaws, I'll miss him. I made it a point to forgive Dad for the things I felt he did wrong when I was growing up; apparently the other sibs did not. I have breakfast with him about once a week. My wife doesn't get along too well with him--used to have him over for dinner at least once and often twice on the weekend, but it's been a while now. I figure I'll be the lead on the re-roofing and it should be a good job. Maybe if I convince him I'd like the place, he'll think more about putting on metal. I don't want to do this again, but can see his point that why should he put on a forty year roof to have it go to a new owner in ten years. We'll see--have to go back over there Monday to take care of a few things (like open the fridge we left closed when we left on Saturday--if we leave it off and closed, it'll get mildewed and nasty smelling.

        1. mesic | Sep 30, 2007 05:31am | #69

          And Frenchy, I thought you would recommend two coats of shellac.
          Now I don't know what to think----Mesic

          1. frenchy | Sep 30, 2007 05:58am | #70

            mesic,

             three coats minimum! ;-)

    2. Danno | Sep 29, 2007 04:12am | #67

      Thanks for the response--I live in Michigan and the land is on the west side of the state almost half way up (lower penninsula). It's a little over 100 acres on a small river. Nice land with varied topography from the glacier going through (the one that made the Great Lakes).

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