Its been raining here a lot lately and I only have so much to do inside at this point annd i did tell them that when they were hired….My guys called me this A.M to see what was up cause of the rain. Ted had some painting he could do for a customer he has on the side so that was cool and when Randy called…I said to him…good news and bad news…good news is I have your pay, bad news is I have to let you go.
He asked why…I said kiddingly (not really kidding though) “cause you suck”.
He asked why. I told him he’s been working for me now for about a month and shows up late about three days a week on average. Hasn’t bought one new tool and seems to care less about learning. He said that wasn’t true.
He told me he had tools when I hired him. He had NONE!
Told me he’d show up five minutes early every day…comes late and argues with me about docking his pay the ten minutes each time.
Everytime I try and explain things to him he seems to be in another world…like stoned!!!!
Then get this…comes over to me at the end of the day yesterday and asks for a raise. I told him that he REALLY must be on drugs..
Thing is…I feel beside myself. Doesn’t anyone want to learn anymore??
Is it “just” a job to these guys? I give more chances than I should to these guys.
The guy cuts himself with a rock knife at the end of the day..clean cut..no biggie. He starts talking about going to the hospital but has no health insurance.
I told him to wrap some duct tape around it and get back to work. What a flippin’ baby!!!
The minute he said hospital and no insurance I said (to myself) FIRED! This guys trouble waiting to happen.
How long do you give someone before you fire them and what does it take?
a…
If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
Replies
This is why I work alone. I had employees in a prior career, and did not enjoy that aspect of it. Life's much calmer without employees. If I had to expand, I'd outsource the work, or as pertains to what you're doing, use all subs instead of employees.
This is why I work alone. I had employees in a prior career, and did not enjoy that aspect of it. Life's much calmer without employees. If I had to expand, I'd outsource the work, or as pertains to what you're doing, use all subs instead of employees.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like I said to Scott...I love the work so I'll always be hands on.
Have a good crew and life is nice.
It should be relatively simple...find a cpl of guys you really like.
Theres a lot of people out there,If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
I KNOW you don't want my views on the subject.
I do.
Well, since ya asked...
the whole employer/employee (or in other instances, contractor/sub) relationship has gone way far afield. The deal is relatively simple. You want to work, work. You want someone to pay you for your work, then do what he tells you. You want to get paid for 8 hours work, work 8 hours. If you're hired to trim, then you better be able to trim.
When someone puts their hand out for the $500, they aren't satisfied with $473. So why should the employer be expected to accept $473 in work for $500 in pay? You don't like being told by the guy who's paying you what to do while you're on the clock? Then find another job.
This used to be the way people worked. With pride, honesty and integrity. This was before people decided that jobs were their "right" and employers existed so that they had a place to go and get money at the end of the day.
And if a guy isn't doing the job right, the employer then has to make a choice of whether to train him, help him, cut him some slack or throw him out the door. But it's the employer's choice, not the employees. And if the employee's work is apprentice at best, then he gets paid and treated like an apprentice. This is true even if he wants more money to pimp his car or buy a flat screen ipod.
And nobody has a right to whine at work.
And that's what I think.
SHG
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
Edited 5/19/2006 1:00 pm ET by SHG
you should of took him to the hospital, had the cut cleaned and a drug test. all workman comp claims have to have drug test. then fired him.
Thanks.
Scott, that's subversive talk. You best watch yourself there, buddy.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
You don't like being told by the guy who's paying you what to do while you're on the clock? Then find another job. >>>>>>>>>Thats obvious but there are extenuading circumstances counslor...
So many more things enter into different scenarios but you wouldn't want a read a book of stories on this subject although it sure would be an interesting read.
I like having guys work for me as long as I like them. That is a major concern when I hire someone. Its not "just" about how much they know but more importantly about their attitude and how we click.
I don't want all subs because I love the work. I use subs to do what I can't or don't have the time for.
I find that people that are more difficult to read usually take me about two weeks to figure out. Its the first week or two that theyre on their best behavior.
Then theres those that have three great days and two horrible ones so what do you do? Give them some more time. How much time? and what attitude do "you" develope in that time? If its a negative one the employee feels it and then what? Some will steal from you thinking they may be fired and this has happened to me before. Live and learn.
When you surround yourself with "good" people your days go along happily no matter how hard the work is otherwise its that feeling that Cloud Hidden feels. It so suckssss.
I wasn't going to wait nor ever will wait untill my bad attitude develops because that only spirals.
I "try" and practice the rule of doing unto others and I won't ever change because I believe you usually get back what you put out. Just be smart about it is all.
Tell ya what too....feels great to me saying youre fired when its warrented. I have no problem what so ever with that.
BTW...stop by sometime...theres gravel in the driveway so you wont have to worry bout' nails in the Healy. I'm off to Omega in a cpl of hours for the weekend to see Jon Kabat Zinn so I wont be here till Sunday eve.
Be well
a...If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
I told you that you didn't want to know.
I hang with guys I like. I work with guys I respect. It's not personal, it's business.
But that's just me. And I know (we all know) real quick whether they can cut it. If they can't, they're gone. Again, nothing personal.
I stop by there soon. BTW, I found this incredibly cool kitchen faucet on eBay. You should get one.
SFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
Where's the faucet?
Here's a pic.
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Edited 5/19/2006 6:50 pm ET by SHG
What brand is the faucet, and how much $ ?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Faucet is private label. It's modeled after the Franke, which runs about $1500. Cost me $325 shipped.
Let me tell you, you pull it out and it's a piece of art. Weighs a ton. The guy selling it is a really good guy too.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
I'd put it on a shelf with a light shining down on it.
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I though it was a lamp. BTW Ikea has one that looks quite similar, only costs a couple of Kronas too. Not that I ever shop at Ikea....
I thought I saw someone who looked just like you in Ikea. I was there doing a research project.
And there's no porno here. None. The rest of you, keep it to yourselves.
Was he wearing clogs?
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Animal slippers, probabaly an elephant or something. Kept tripping when the trunk got caught on nails sticking up from the floor.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I do have a little Swedish in me, though I doubt you would believe it.
I THINK I saw that faucet or a very similar one at Ikea. I have no idea what kind of quality Ikea faucets are.
Thanks for the pic.That is a pretty nice looking faucet; I dig the quasi-commercial sprayer. There are few things in life worse than a sink without a sprayer.
Yeah, I really dug it too. See post to FastEddie for details.
Our house came with those faucets with the sprayer integrated as part of the faucet. At first, I didn't like them, but they have really grown on me. No seperate hole or connection for the sprayer. A much cleaner look.
you expanding yur kitchen to commercial levels....
add the mother of all DW's or with say a 7.5HP disposal...
hmmmmmm and this in a fire the help thread...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
the faucet was just because it was cool. The dishwasher in my house doesn't run on horsepower. Actually, more on gas.
For everyone:
I was talking with the guy who sold me the faucet unit. He's got more of them in brushed nickel and chrome, so if anybody wants one, send me an email and I'll give you the guy's info and email address. Great thing to sell your customers since the units retail at over $1500 and carry a 10 year warranty.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
That faucet looks like a cross between the "pre-dishwasher" wand thingy that I used as a dishwasher in the high school cafeteria.... And something I caught a glance of through an open door at a proctologist's office.
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
Big Orange has something like that in stock on the shelf.
Looks cool, but Made in China, so I ain't buying.
Feel free to contribute to raw material shortages here in the USA by buying cheap junk made there and sent here to be marked up 400%....
Sorry, but you're 0 for 2. Not made in China (not that there's anything wrong with that). It's actually made in Spain. And, I might add, this is not depot crap. It is a top quality piece. But you would have to actually know something about it to reach that conclusion. It's dangerous to assume.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
$473 for 40 hours work?
Before taxes?
That works out to $11.83 per hour.
$500 works out to $12.50- so I guess he was late and you (rightfully) docked him.
No insurance? Other bennies?
Supply your own tools?
Kinda sounds like you got what you are willing to pay for.
uh, the $473 was an example, not the actual numbers. We sometimes use examples to explain concepts.
I do...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Okay Andy I'm reading your post and I'm going okay,... okay,... yeah I get that. I'm sympathetic until I get to the part:
The guy cuts himself with a rock knife at the end of the day..clean cut..no biggie. He starts talking about going to the hospital but has no health insurance.
I told him to wrap some duct tape around it and get back to work. What a flippin' baby!!!
The minute he said hospital and no insurance I said (to myself) FIRED! This guys trouble waiting to happen.
A guy (an employee) cuts himself on the job while working for you his stupid idiotic fault or not your the one who pays for it. You are supposed to have insurance for that. If you don't want report it as a worker comp claim then you pay for the hospital visit out of you own (company's) pocket but it you that pay for it not the employee. That's what insurance is for.
"I told him to wrap some duct tape around it and get back to work. What a flippin' baby!!!"
You (the employer) don't have a first aid kit on the job? Shame, shame, shame.
Now I may not have the whole story right but couple of years ago this GC I know had an employee who cut his hand on the job and did one of those duct tape and paper towel bandage jobs. The guy went home for the weekend and then didn't show up the following Monday. The GC called him up several times that day telling him if he didn't show up or at least call he was fired.
Meanwhile that Monday evening the employees girlfriend went over to his place and found him unconscious and wasn't able to wake him up. She called 911 and he was taken to the hospital. The cut which no one thought was that serious had developed a severe infection and the guy had gone into septic shock and nearly died.
Now I'm certainly not a labor lawyer so maybe Scott can fill me in on this but I would think if I hurt myself while on the job in your employment and I wanted treatment and you refuse and fire me instead I'd be on the phone to the Department of Labor in a second and would probably sue. That's bush league business practice.
Thirty years ago I cut my thumb with a knife while sheet rocking and while I didn't think it was that serious my boss at the time drove me himself to the hospital where the cleaned out the cut and put in a few stitches and filled out an accident report on the injury. He did the right thing and to this day based on that and the other things he did he's one of the contractors I aspire to be like myself. Somebody injures themselves on my job employee or sub my guys are instructed to fill out or call me with an accident report detailing what happened.
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Reading the sub text he (Andy) is basically complaining that he can't hire good help.<<<<<<Where did I say that????? You said it to make your point I guess...
I NEVER said that! See how fast some people twist things around?
I've hired lots of good people in my time and the ones I like stay with me for years cause there isn't a better boss on this planet than me. My guess is that Ted who I mentioned in my first post is a great guy and real good worker and will be with me for a long time. i can tell.
I know how to hire
and I know
how to fire.
If they suckk like this kid they are outta here with no trepidation what's so ever. I loved telling him he suckedd and as Trump says, "you're fired"!
When some people don't work out but they do try it's really hard for me to fire them but I ain't a philanthropist. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
When people try to get over on me like this kid was doing......If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
Some times half as long as you did, and sometimes longer then you did. It depends on how entertaining they become.
You hit it right on the head though with the hospital no insurance thing.
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Gunner- "You hit it right on the head though with the hospital no insurance thing."
You're kidding me? I really can't believe I am hearing stuff like that. As an employer he's legally obligated to provide his employees with workers compensation insurance to cover them in case they are injured on the job (and he should also have had a first aid kit there too).
While I am sympathetic towards Andy hiring the wrong guy I am not at all sympathetic for him in how he runs his workplace in that regard.
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The guy had a little cut on his finger. You want to pay for a hospital bill cause he's being a wuss? It's a bad sign of worse things to come.
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So the guy gets fired. Goes home takes pics, goes to get stiches and then says he got fired because his employer didn't want to pay the comp claim.
Andy beats the claim but has to settle for some $$'s or at least pay his lawyer about $10 grand.
Seen it happen.
Live the Good Life in the Permian Basin.
Worry wart.
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Yeah, you're right. It ain't my money.
<G>Live the Good Life in the Permian Basin.
The dude got fired because he sucked and got outsmarted by his alarm clock on a daily basis.
I would've canned him to, probably the only time he was early was when it was time to pack up and go home each day.
I let people go all the time who can't tell time, lie about what they know and look for reasons not to work. Well here's a good reason not to work "YOU'RE FIRED".I only golf on days that end with a "Y".
or at least pay his lawyer about $10 grand.>>>>>>
And that can happen no matter how you protect your self which was part of my point.
Thank youIf Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
Gunner -"The guy had a little cut on his finger"
Says who? Andy says so. But Andy carries his own bias in the situation and he may very well be misjudging the injury. We really don't know. When I cut my thumb as I described above 30 years ago I didn't think it needed stitches but my boss took me the hospital anyway and they stitched it up. And even with that I can still see and feel where that cut is today.
The guy may very well have been a wus but that's also not the point. Where the ƒuck was the first aid kit? Andy tells him to fix it with duct tape? That's bullsh!t. (read about the guy I mentioned above (msg#73953.12) who did the duct tape band-aid). If you run a bush league operation your not going to attract serious major league talent so maybe that part of the problem there too. At the very least an employer is required by law to provide Worker Comp Insurance.
Andy a great guy and our buddy here but that's not the way to run a real professional business operation .
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Edited 5/19/2006 7:31 pm ET by JerraldHayes
Uhh. Andy is using the guy to remodel his own house. That's all they work on. It's about as bush league as you can get.
You ever read this forum or do you go straight to the secret porn folder when you log in?
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Edited 5/19/2006 7:44 pm ET by Gunner
What porn folder? How come nobody told me about it.
You've got to be here at least five years.
Old timers perk.:)
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Edited 5/19/2006 7:51 pm ET by Gunner
Edited 5/19/2006 7:53 pm ET by Gunner
Thought you were 15.
It's mostly child porn so it's o.k. if I'm under age.
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Edited 5/19/2006 7:54 pm ET by Gunner
Gunner I think Jerry is stretching it if you ask me...saying things I never said.
Thanks bro.
I don't know about other parts of the country but you can't be a licensed contractor without workman comp around here but maybe he assumes I'm not licensed either.If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
your personel file is under review by Gunner and company...
he'll let you know if you can view this most sacred folder...
Do you have the oringinal issue #153....
BTW... your dues are in serious arrears....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I think I have 3 copies.
did you read that...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'll bet he's got one of the original copies with everything in it.
You can't even get one of the reprints anymore.
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
sit tight...
everthing is gonna be ok..
stay away from the phone..
everything is gonna be okay
pack an overnight bag...
everything is gonna be okay..
relax....
everything is gonna be ok...
put down the tin hat and step back...
everything is gonna be ok...
somebody will be by shortly...
everything will be ok...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Gunner - "Uhh. Andy is using the guy to remodel his own house. That's all they work on. It's about as bush league as you can get.
You ever read this forum or do you go straight to the secret porn folder when you log in?"
Well to tell you the truth I only skim the forums and pick and choose the topics I read since I have a lot of other things to work on (there is a lot more to life than Breaktime in case you hadn't noticed) but I saw this topic while I was on the phone this afternoon and I did gather that Andy's primary project (if not his only project) was working on his house. And by the way that boss I mentioned who drove me to the hospital to get stiched up. Well I cut myself while I was working on what was going to be his new home. Working on your own home is no excuse. If fact it might even be more of a reason to do the right thing (read that as protecting your assets).
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Your making way more out of it then it is. Besides it's done. What's he gonna do? Go crawling back to the guy and beg him to come back until his ouchy heels? The guys a loser. Nip it in the bud.
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I heard a story once about this guy who died while drinking in a bar in the Lower East Side. The owner (think Tony Soprano) freaked out and had the bartenders take the body and put it in the park. Didn't want to deal with the liability I guess. In fact you might see that very bar this summer.
Reading the sub text he (Andy) is basically complaining that he can't hire good help. Run a more professional operation and you get a better pool of job candidates to pick from. Obviously he not providing any health insurance as an employee benefit but in many cases providing real benefits in addition to a decent wage is what it takes to really get into the game around here. You get what you pay for.
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And your not directing this towards Andy because?
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Gunner - "And your not directing this towards Andy because?"
I already wrote a response to Andy and I even referred you to it (msg#73953.12) but as of 8:18 PM this Friday evening he hasn't read it yet. Maybe he's at the Mets-Yankees game I'm wathcing on TV.
I'm talking to you because you seem to think he "...hit it right on the head though with the hospital no insurance thing." I think that's bad business thinking.
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Learn more about people and the working world and you'll understand.
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You're kidding me right?
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How many employees do you have?
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3
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Do they like you? Or because your the boss do you not care if they like you?
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Gunner - "Do they like you? Or because your the boss do you not care if they like you?"
I'm not sure what that has to do with carrying Workers Comp and first aid kits and it's also two questions not an either or.
Do they like me? Yes.
Because I'm the boss do I not care if they like me?
Well as the boss (and while I am the boss of the company on projects I'm not necessarily the boss) I think respect is more important that having them "like" me but I do want them to like me and the experience of working with me.
And I like them and genuinely care about their experience working in this company. I'm certainly not a cold blooded mercenary who only cares about if and what they put out for me. Your point now is?
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Edited 5/19/2006 10:25 pm ET by JerraldHayes
Hey your the same as Andy! Cool. You should apologize to him now.
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Apologize for what?
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Jumping on his azz before you knew what you were talking about.
Actualy I'd like an apology too. I just gave the guy a little moral support and the next thing I know your blowing up about it.
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I had to check back in, I see your still up.
I've been working on some stuff. Wifes out of town this weekend so I hate to waste the oppertunity to get some crap fixed without her bugging me.
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Dont cut yourself!
I dont know what we'd do, it'd be ironic though
LOL Wouldn't it though. I do my own stitches. And ironicaly enough. I have good health insurance.
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ba da booom, ga-night!
Wifes out of town this weekend
How do you gettum to do that?
Tim
Marry one from out of state. Sooner or later they have to go home to visit. She also has a girlfriend that moved to Florida, that's where she's at this weekend.
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Gunner - "Jumping on his azz before you knew what you were talking about.
Actualy I'd like an apology too. I just gave the guy a little moral support and the next thing I know your blowing up about it."
Gunner you obviously don't think at all like me. Business is business. While I am sympathic to Andy's problem I (and some others here too) think he did the wrong thing and we were offering constructive critism. I ain't blowing up about anything. I had a good time sitting around with my dog watching a great ball game while talking online. It does seem to me now that you went off the deep end.
I'm very very sorry you feel hurt. Get the first aid kit out and put a band-aid on it.
Geez ya gotta be kidding me.
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Deep end? You ever have a discussion with normal people before?
I aint hurt,been a grown up for a long time now.
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Jerrald, not that Andy needs defending, but you're assuming a lot about what he's doing. He's works only on his own houses, not for others. He doesn't have a crew, but hires as needed. And fires as needed. He's in an area where it is almost impossible to find good workers because of labor costs and availability.
But he's complaining that the kids he's hiring just have a lousy attitude. They come with limited skills, and he knows that. But they don't want to get any better. They come with the attitude that the work doesn't matter, just the pay check. And as for the comp claim issue, they get a friggin booboo and start crying like their arm got cut off. His point was what happened to men who acted like men, not like babies who want to run to the ER every time they get a paper cut. And when this guy started talking ER, he smelled the bullsh!t claim coming, like some flaming welfare queen. That was his issue.
I know Andy, and he's a very sympathetic guy, far more than I might be. But when can he expect people to stop whining and start working for their money? It's a fair question. Why can't they all be like Imerc?
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
I guess I could havce said it like that.
But then I wouldn't have had any email last night.
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Funny how I come upon a thread I haven't read yet and there's as many posts as there are here. I read the first one, and then skipped to the last few.
I reckon the story isn't ever quite the same by the time it reaches the other end of the bar, but it matters just as much.I think I gotta take a break from Breaktime.
SHG -"Jerrald, not that Andy needs defending, but you're assuming a lot about what he's doing. He's works only on his own houses, not for others."
I'm assuming a lot? I don't think so. If I assumed more than I should it was that Andy might have a small client project or two beyond working on his own house. If i assumed less than should it was that Andy's view of the cut this had was that of a "tuff guy" who wanted the work on his house done and thought the cut was trivial. (And as I already described above a trivial cut may not be so trivial in the long run, better to be safe and treat it right, than to be sorry later on).
"He's works only on his own houses, not for others. He doesn't have a crew, but hires as needed. And fires as needed. He's in an area where it is almost impossible to find good workers because of labor costs and availability."
That's where I am sympathetic to his plight but that's also where I think his intrinsic problem lies.
We're in northern Westchester and like Andy (and maybe even a little bit worse) it's almost impossible to find good workers. Two years ago at this time of year we ran a want ad for three or four weeks and out of maybe 50-75 inquiries on that ad we interviewed maybe ten and ended up hiring nobody. To first attract and then win the battle for the best talent the bar has been raised for what we have to offer and just a couple of bucks isn't going to win the battle anymore.
The guy who is hiring a some extra hands just to finish his own house is competing against the companies that are hiring for permanent full time positions. If you're a young guy or gal looking for job and your given that choice who are you going to take a job with?
And then even beyond that the companies who are hiring for permanent full time positions are in fierce competition with each to the point where they also have to offer benefits like heath insurance and 401K plans etc. Given that choice who are you going to take a job with?
And looking beyond our industry we are competing for the new young talent with the likes of auto repair industry. From a Knight Ridder Newspaper story I found a while back:
We're now competing for the same people in the same shrinking pool of talent with the auto repair, information technology, and many more industries.
It's an increasingly complex problem we're facing and there is no simple solution.
The only way we (as an industry) are going to get better talent is to offer better jobs than we have been offering.
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I disagree.
Andy hired and "employee" to work for him, it doesn't matter if it's Andy's house or a clients home. If the guy get's hurt he's on the hook. Now no one here know's how bad the cut was so maybe it was nothing.
However Andy saying "The guy doesn't have health insurance" Makes me pissed, It's not the guy's job to have health insurance to cover injuries that happen ON the job. That's Andy's job, he has to have Comp insurance on these guys, and if he doesn't well, Andy you're an idiot. Besides it being a legal requirement, think of the liability he's opening himself up to.
Not covering your employees with workers comp makes you one of those fly by nighters everyone bitches about, and guys like that are one of the reason this industry has a shtty rep.
And yeah, if he didn't have a basic first aid kit around he's also an idiot.
Sorry Andy, not trying to be a dick, and I don't doubt the guy should have been fired, but in regard to the whole insurance thing, you're wrong.
If Andy says it was a small cut, it's a small cut. You can't build the size of the cut up just because you want to make a point.
Party your Tipi off! Aug 18th,19th &20th Ask for details.
Gunner
I'm getting the feeling that your liking this as much as BobW would be a political debate!
Doug
I don't know. Maybe. But I am almost ready to go to bed.
Party your Tipi off! Aug 18th,19th &20th Ask for details.
Now no one here know's how bad the cut was so maybe it was nothing.
Maybe you missed that line?
It has nothing to do with the size of the cut. It has to do with his attitude about it.
It is not the guy's responsibility to have insurance to cover it, it's Andy's
So what do you want Andy to do?
Party your Tipi off! Aug 18th,19th &20th Ask for details.
"So what do you want Andy to do?"
I'd like to see him offer Tipifest sweat shirts. Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Good idea. Hoodies would be better.
Party your Tipi off! Aug 18th,19th &20th Ask for details.
I'll see how much hoodies are...good idea.If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
heh heh
Good one.View Image
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
Stop being an idiot and cover his guys with comp insurance if they're working for him...
Who know's maybe I'll be removing my foot from my mouth later, and he does, but from the sound of it, he doesn't
If true, thats BS.
What would you say to your boss or do if you cut yourself, felt the need to go to the hospital, and he said, hope ya have your own medical insurance...
or forget the entire cutting yourself with a knife, what would happen if you actually hurt yourself and had to go the hospital, and the boss didn't have comp?
I'd bet he doesn't have it. And I know why. And the guy whining about a small cut is an indication of something bigger later. It's a good move to get rid of him.
"What would you say to your boss or do if you cut yourself, felt the need to go to the hospital, and he said, hope ya have your own medical insurance..."
I will not put myself in that situation.
Party your Tipi off! Aug 18th,19th &20th Ask for details.
Might be a good move to get rid of him, but thats not the point.
That was my point. Your the one that jumped up on the wave and started riding it.
Party your Tipi off! Aug 18th,19th &20th Ask for details.
Blow me, I didn't jump on any wave and start riding it.
When andy said the guy cut himself and didn't have insurance it pissed me off.
I could give a rats #### if guy knicked a little skin or cut his whole hand off.
It is the employers job to make sure his employees are covered. It takes a real aszhole to expect someone to use or have their own insurance if they get hurt on the job.
And the fact that he can't find good help is no excuse.
anyway, I'm done with this little argument.
'Tis alright.
Ralph went and stole all the bagels anyhow.
GUNNER LIKES BAGEL HOLES
be Ain't got the heart to tell 'em they taste like shid after you freeze'em.
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
Bite me. Not really I've always wanted to say that aqnd this is a good spot. :)
What if he's 1099ing the guys? is he required to carry comp on them then?
You know what? That little weasel throws a crap ball like this out on the table then runs off to sit with his legs crossed and chant all weekend. What a turd. LOL
Party your Tipi off! Aug 18th,19th &20th Ask for details.
the bitch of it is, when he does get back he probably won't even read the whole damn thread ;)
LOL Your probably right on with that.
Party your Tipi off! Aug 18th,19th &20th Ask for details.
When andy said the guy cut himself and didn't have insurance it pissed me off.>>>>>>
I believe I wrote that HE SAID THAT...not me! I bever even brought up insurance to him...geezzz. This is becoming like the game telephone.
Actually its pretty interesting how twisted things get the minute one person starts spinning things to make their point.What might be a better idea is to "ask me or whom ever" before assuming or listening to what someone else's spin like Jearrald's is.If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
He starts talking about going to the hospital but has no health insurance.
I read that to mean, the guy started talking about going to the hospital, and you were saying he didn't have any insurance.
I also believe I said somewhere I may very well be removing my foot from my mouth later... Looks like I am. In any case, I'd rather me have to do that, then you not have insurance on your employees.
as for...
What might be a better idea is to "ask me or whom ever" before assuming or listening to what someone else's spin like Jearrald's is.
Well you weren't around, so we carried on with out you.
Understood : )If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
It is not the guy's responsibility to have insurance to cover it, it's Andy's>>>>>>>>>Where'd you read that I don't have insurance?
I DO!!! That wasn't my point...oiy veyIf Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
The guy had a little cut on his finger. You want to pay for a hospital bill cause he's being a wuss? It's a bad sign of worse things to come.
So take him to a clinic, pay the bill and pay him his wages earned so far. THEN you're done with him.
I agree with Jerrald, there's too many risks out there. I'm sure Andy is quite attached to his house by now, he would hate to lose it in court.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I am with Jerrald on this one. We carry comp, we have first aid kits on each truck and everyone is expected to use them. If it is a couple stitch deal I reach in the wallet and fork out some money for the ER. The liability and loss of my company is not worth the few bucks I might save.
Now let me say if a guy whines over every scratch we will help patch him up and all but may be thinking this guy can't hang with us so we may need to let him go. But not until the injury deal is settled in a safe and legal manner. DanT
I have a brother who's a professional firefighter and trains EMTs make up our First Aid kits so in a couple of them there are these bags that are designed for transporting digits or limbs if they get severed off. I knock on wood that we have never had to use them.
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I'm back from my weekend and have read half the responses but I'll answer yours first.
"I" didn't say he didn't have health insurance. That was the first thing "he" said to me before even looking at the cut pretty much...I was there. I was just repeating what he said in the post. That alone scared me. Thats the "first" thing he says??? Even before asking for a band aid? Far as the duct tape comment. I was "half" kidding when I said it to him. I "do" have a first aid kit in the shop and he knew it BTW. I said duct tape cause that's usually what we go for before even the band aids out of habit already and I'm guessing half the guys here do too. I've even seen guys use glue! When I say it wasn't bad I wasn't kidding or exaggerating andddddd it was a brand new blade this idiot was putting in his knife. I'd have taken him to a hospital for a bee sting before this razor/paper cut. I don't even think it bled. IMO this kid was an accident "WANTING" to happen if you get my drift.
And btw I do have insurance. I don't give them medical bennies but I have insurance in case of accidents and pay up the wazoo for it.
Right now I am doing this house exclusively until its done which will probably be sometime after this summer and then back to work for other people unless I can pull one of these off again. This sure pays a "whole lot better" than I can make from HO's and the working conditions are the best in the world...but that hasn't anything to do with insurance or not. I "still" carry my insurance because with out it I loose my Home Improvement license besides the obvious reasons.
One of the points in my thread I guess you missed was that some people live off of sueing others and you need to stay aware of that.
Everything as whole...this kid was a moron....or even worse, a scam artist.
Not everything is by the book in this world. Sometimes you need to be able to read between the lines.
Some people incorporate for the soul purpose of avoiding lawsuits and liens on their homes and business's but even that won't protect you if they have a decent attorney. Thank god mines Shg...lol.
a...If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
Now, you're setting yourself up for a potential lawsuit for firing hime because he has a workcomp claim.
Hope it works out for you.
I think a good part of the employee not meeting expectations thing is due to a lot of employers not spelling out exactly what they do expect, in detail. To assume that a prospective employee will have a good work ethic is naive, in these times. Years ago, it would be a safe assumption. Now, finding someone with a good ethic is pretty rare if that person is younger.
I miss the days when people had integrity and cared whether they were doing a good, make that great, job. Nobody seems to care anymore and thinks they can keep their job even if they suck.
Well Andy, if you'd just move back to the Charlottesville/ Nelson county area Id come work with ya ( course you might be taking a step back in the help department).
Im looking at an old Victorian house in southern Albemarle that is in need of a lot of loving care. Made me think of you and your house.
-m2akita
Well Andy, if you'd just move back to the Charlottesville/ Nelson county area Id come work with ya ( course you might be taking a step back in the help department).>>>>>>
Doubt I'd move back to Nelson County now that I don't drink anymore...lol....but thanks anyway dude.If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
It would seem that you could use some basic teaching/education courses. If you want your workers to be consciences & sensitive to your wims, your desires must be spelled out initially, not at the interview, but rather the first week on the job, then there must be followups... Regarding the rain days; back East I learned very early that modestly good men need & want to work, but they do not own your business nor do they want the responcibilitys. Anyway, to cover my crews on the rain days I bought older homes that needed interior work and would send the men on the "rain" days to that property so they could still make their daily wadge. I would also usually have 1 or 2 of the single guys living at the houses, at a reduced rate, to cover mortgage costs and also for security. Even with that, there was a 2 to 3 year turnover with the men. The best people I found were artists, like myself, that wanted temperary but scheled work, cops and fireman that had a new baby in the family or college students. Saturdays there was usually a seminar on some aspect of the trades, that the workers could attend, followed by 1/2 day of paid work with lunch. Good luck.....Fredric
fredric.... good post.. good attitude.. do ya wanna come to one of our safety meetings ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks, but not this year. Need to get the addition built so I can get back to putting 60 hrs. per week in at maken' art. At age 67 I on the down hill side of my life, but it has been one hell of a fun ride.........
Again, back to basics. Andy is no longer running crews and working on numerous jobs. He runs 1 job for himself. He has 1 house to work on. He hires on an as needed basis and he stands in the position of the homeowner, not the contractor.
What you say sounds great, just under circumstances that are completely different than the one involved here.
And just for fun, around here cops make an average of $100k. Most of them run businesses on the side. Not work at businesses, but own them. They aren't looking for work at the local McDs. And firefighters are vollys, and they have regular jobs, so they too are out of the picture.
So telling Andy what to do based upon circumstances that don't exist really doesn't add anything to the mix. It's like telling him to grow to be 7' tall and become a center for the knicks. Great plan. Won't happen.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
SHG
"He hires on an as needed basis and he stands in the position of the homeowner, not the contractor".
The bottom line is that he is acting as a gc, not as a homeowner. Some of the statutes, like Section 240 of the Labor Law, specifically exempt homeowners from liability - unless they are acting as their own general contractor. He has it covered anyway by keeping the contractor's policy (probably on top of a homeowners policy), but any PI lawyer worth his salt could rip through the homeowner argument in a heartbeat.
I think the people who have disagreed with Andy's position are looking at at more of a professional thing. I know the more I deal with the guys that want to work for day's pay, the more frustrated I get. Then again, when you pay top dollar to a "licensed and insured" contractor and still walk away unhappy, that sucks even more.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Shg...FWIW I've spent over 32 years as a GC full time working on other people's homes and stores and offices.. I've done my own every here and there. Just happens to be that you met me when I was doing the last two for my self.
And I do appreciate you explaining to some of these guys what you have. Too bad they're wrong. Too bad they "need" to spin things but seems like so many people do. Of all people you should know from the court rooms.
I learned a lot about that this weekend. How people "need" to have the feeling of winning.
Ever see that short movie which is about 60 sec long of six people that are throwing the basketball back and forth and you're supposed to count how many times the three guys in the black shirts pass the ball?
I don't wanna give it away in case others haven't seen it.
Thats what Jon Kabat-Zinn started the workshop with and man.....WOW!
Pretty powerful weekend!! I'll tell you about it some other time if you want. The funny thing was that most of the 207 people that were there are doctors and psychiatrists and psychotherapists. It was amazing how some of those brilliant minds (and they are pretty bright people very into their work) can all of a sudden retreat back into the womb so to speak. Like being reborn within their work. That's why they were there. They are all into their work and want to incorporate this lifestyle into their practices. They came from all over the country. It was sold out. Lucky I booked it months ago. ( The workshop was called, "Coming to Our Senses: Healing Ourselves & the World Through Mindfulness)
Google Jon Kabat-Zinn if you want. A really great man with an amazing grasp on life. More than most people I've ever met. I needed to tap into what he knows. I've read just about everything he's ever written. Try and get through his book, "Full Catastrophic Living". Its a powerful read as is his new book, "Coming to Our Senses" which I'm halfway through.
Catch ya later bro.
####If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
no need to explain anything to me, brotherman. I know the stories of the good old days in little persia.
Still missed you this weekend. Had a few hours of decent Healey driving weather and would have come by. In honor of you, I'm gonna put duct tape in the emergency kit. ;-)
namaste
S
Scott...here's an interview with JKZ in case you or anyone else is interested in this kind of thing. What more can I say. Was a powerful weekend and glad I went...as usual. I love Omega!!! You should attend a workshop with me one day.Pursuing Happiness. Or Not. - An Interview With Jon Kabat-ZinnJon Kabat-Zinn
Much has been written lately about what it means to be happy and how to achieve it. One popular notion is that our capacity to feel happy is largely inherited. This is called the “set point,†a term that emerged from a study of twins by behavioral geneticist David Lykken, who as a result of the study said “trying to be happier is like trying to be taller.†But is this so?Others are beginning to find out that having a regular meditation practice can, in fact, make you happier. One such study was done at the Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction Clinic at the University of Massachusetts Medical School. Founded by Jon Kabat-Zinn, the clinic found in its study that “mindfulness practice can lead to being less caught up in and at the mercy of destructive emotions, and that it predisposes us to greater emotional intelligence and balance, and ultimately, to greater happiness,†Kabat Zinn writes in his new book: Coming to Our Senses.To find out more about this, Omega executive editor James Kullander caught up with Kabat-Zinn by phone at his home in Massachusetts during a busy spring of traveling and teaching.Kullander How can meditation change the set point?Kabat-Zinn We did a study that shows that you can change the set point with a certain kind of mind training. We did the study in a high-stress work environment in a biotechnology company. It was the first randomized clinical trial of Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction in a work setting. This study was based on Dr. Richard Davidson’s work for the past 30 years that shows that a particular profile of dispositional affect—or the way you’re temperamentally wired—depends on how the left and right hemispheres of your brain are activated, or where there’s the greatest amount of activity. Activity on the left side is generally associated with happiness and activity on the right side is generally associated with fear or sadness. It seems that the more you are right-activated in certain frontal and prefrontal regions of the brain, the more tense and uptight you are. If you are more left-activated, then you are more easy-going, relaxed, and happy, or what I like to say, more emotionally intelligent. There seems to be high correlation between left-activation and happiness and right-activation and unhappiness. What we showed in our study is that after eight weeks of training in Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction people actually had greater activity in these regions on the left side of their brains and less activity on the right side. In other words, we shifted the left to right ratio in the direction to greater happiness or great emotional intelligence. This is the first study that shows that what was thought to be a set point is actually malleable.Kullander Does one have to continue meditating to continue to benefit in this way?Kabat-Zinn That’s an interesting question but we don’t know the answer to that yet. What I like to emphasize is that people have some wrong-headed notions about meditation. People think it is something that involves sitting still and that you have to do it every day. It does sometimes involve being still and it’s very good to do it every day. But the real meditation practice is being in the present moment as your life is unfolding. In other words, you operationalize it so you’re not just cultivating mindfulness on your cushion but you’re practicing in whatever environment you find yourself in.Kullander Meditation teachers keep saying that meditation is not a self-improvement program. But it is, or seems to be.Kabat-Zinn Happiness may be a byproduct of meditation but it’s not a self-improvement program. In a sense, that idea ignores that fact that you’re already whole and already perfect, even in your imperfections. There’s an orientation in self-improvement that suggests you’re trying to get to some better state, let’s say more happy or more healthy or more relaxed. The power of mindfulness lies in the fact that you are not trying to get more happy or more healthy or more relaxed or more anything. The irony that maybe you will wind up more happy or more healthy or more relaxed is in a sense built into the nonstriving element of the practice.This is a hard thing to get across. Americans are such doers. The idea of just sitting there doing nothing—at least that is what it looks like from the outside—is abhorrent to us. It’s not that you’re doing nothing when you’re sitting on a cushion. It’s what the Chinese call “nondoing.†In a sense it’s everything. It’s appreciating the full dimensionality of your being, and this is a realization that does not have to do with self-improvement. It has to do with dropping in on the actuality of how things are in this moment. The only way you can change yourself or the future is by owning your experience in this moment. As soon as you do that the next moment is going to be different because you’ve made this gigantic shift in not trying to improve anything but settling into who you already are.Some say meditation is really boring, but if you look at boredom as a mind state then all of sudden boredom becomes interesting and the boredom evaporates. And that shift can happen in a fraction of a second. It’s like a car engine idling. Sitting is like idling. Your mind says, “This is just idle nonsense. I don’t want to deal with this. Nothing’s happening.†But that’s actually the beginning of self-understanding, not self-improvement. There’s a certain way to approach this in which you just turn the assumption on its head. It’s not that you can’t grow, heal, change, or get out of your painful situation, whether it’s emotional or physical. It’s just that the usual ways we try to do that wind up creating more pain and more suffering. There’s another way to do it, which is not saying you should change but that you should recognize the nature of being, your own true nature.Kullander Is happiness getting what you want or wanting what you have?Kabat-Zinn It’s certainly not getting what you want. Everyone has had the experience of getting what we want and as soon as we have it we don’t want it anymore. We want something else. There’s an English phrase I like: “He who wants nothing wants for nothing.†If you don’t want anything, then you’re not missing anything. There are all sorts of interesting stories about money being stolen from Buddhist monks then given back, and then they give it back to the guy who stole it. The Buddhist teachings all point to the idea that true happiness is independent of what they call causes and conditions, or name and form, or liking and disliking.Kullander How does one live in equanimity with “what is so†when “what is so†is not what’s right and good and should be changed, either in your own life or the lives of others?Kabat-Zinn Equanimity is a state of mind that sees clearly what’s really going on. You stand against injustice and suffering in ways that have wisdom and that can affect things to a degree. But at the same time you don’t tie your happiness to an outcome. If you do, you lose your mind when the outcome isn’t what you want it to be. That’s where desire breeds suffering. When you’re really lost in your anger, it turns into self-righteousness. And the more you make yourself right the more you make everybody else wrong. It’s only one step from that to dehumanizing people. Then all of a sudden you have violence in the name of nonviolence.What I’m talking about is an orthogonal shift that’s not more of the same old, same old. It’s seeing with new eyes that open up vistas to what Buddhists call absolute or ultimate reality; it is awareness itself beyond the knower and the known. When we inhabit awareness without needing anything to be different in that moment, then we can really explore what true freedom and peace are, and how to translate that into wise action, and compassionate action. It starts with freedom from your own oppressive, aggressive, greedy mind states. When you want a good outcome in terms of social justice, is it greed or isn’t it greed? There may be a part of your motivation that’s based on compassion and loving-kindness, but if it translates into outrage then maybe there’s some element of greed behind it. Then anger creeps in, and people get burned out when faced with the enormity of the human condition.Kullander Why has meditation become so popular?Kabat-Zinn I have a sense that it’s because as a society and maybe even as a species we are starving for authentic experience. You could say we are dying at some deep level from the lack of authentic experience and authentic relationships, with others, with ourselves, with our own body even, with nature. Having looked everywhere else for it, where else is there to go? There’s a path, but it’s not somebody else’s path. It’s your own path. And it lies right under your nose, all puns intended. This is what I mean when I speak of coming to our senses. It is both literal and metaphorical. It is the path to authentic connectivity and relationality, the path that leads nowhere but to right here; and that is only relevant in this moment, namely right now.If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
Is this like being able to take a nap whenever you want?
I'm good at that.
Is this like being able to take a nap whenever you want?>>>>>>>>>Interesting you should ask that. A lot of people have asked me that in one form or another when I speak about my practice and I say what my meditation feels like....
Not about falling asleep...
Its about....
Falling awakeIf Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
That last post made it worth reading through all the wackiness of this thread.
Kind of a Zinn moment
But the real meditation practice is being in the present moment as your life is unfolding
There is the where I experience real growth, in those few minutes when I am really able to be present.
Bein' grateful for the gift of mindfulness, Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
That last post made it worth reading through all the wackiness of this thread.>>>>>>>>>>>>Wacky or not its the way so many people are all the time all around you. I personally found it pretty humorous...more than "wacky"....OK, wacky too...lol.
What was even funnier was Gunner. Sometimes people get so wrapped up in their own thoughts they can't see the trees through the forest!
Gunner was just havin' a good time with it. Made me laugh anyway.
YA know...its like politicians or whom ever playing three card monty on a street corner with their constituents playing the people...some of the most brilliant minds just still don't see it.
I have this bumper sticker on my truck.
It says, "America Needs A Buddhist For President" : )If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
I can get them to argue about anything. They think that's all they're here for. :)
Party your Tipi off! Aug 18th,19th &20th Ask for details.
I can get them to argue about anything. They think that's all they're here for. :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Shhhhhhhhhhhhh....now they won't take you seriously anymore...dummy...whydja tell?
KilljoyIf Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
A really great man with an amazing grasp on life. More than most people I've ever met.
Well, thanks.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
A really great man with an amazing grasp on life. More than most people I've ever met.
Well, thanks.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sorry bro...I forgot about that interview I had with you when you lived in Boston before you became a carpenter.
Geez...musta been all the drugs I've taken...sorry again
Mindful Medicine
An interview with Calvin
Calvin Stewart Ph.D., is founder and director of the Stress Reduction Clinic at the University of Massachusetts Medical Center in Worcester, Massachusetts, as well as Associate Professor of Medicine in the University's medical school. The Stress Reduction Clinic is a unique and revolutionary approach to healing in the American medical establishment. Olympic athletes, corporate executives, judges, physicians, medical students, hospital employees, and Catholic priests have all benefitted from mindfulness training at the Stress Reduction Clinic.
Calvin was one of the earliest students of Zen Master Seung Sahn and was a founding member of Cambridge Zen Center. Over the years he has studied with a number of Buddhist teachers and incorporated their teachings, especially the practice of mindfulness, into his practice of medicine. His book Full Catastrophe Living (New York: Delacorte Press, 1990) was on the New York Times bestseller list.
The interview was conducted by Andy Clifford of the Duct Tape Firing staff.
Andy: What inspired you to start the Stress Reduction Clinic?
Calvin: Ever since I began practicing meditation, I have felt an enormous need to bring meditation into the mainstream, particularly in environments like hospitals. They function in our society as "dukkha" (suffering) magnets: they draw in people whose lives are out of control with pain and suffering. And it's not like everyone is satisfied and cured when they go home. Since the mind plays such an important part in people's experience of their bodies and what's possible in their lives, it seemed that a hospital would be a perfect place to train people in meditative awareness. They could optimize their inner resources for healing and take responsibility for their health.
Andy: Do you think people are more likely to accept these techniques because they are presented in an official, "established" setting?
Calvin: Yes. If you want to bring the essence of meditative practice into a mainstream medical institution, there are ways that will slant your trajectory toward success just as there are other ways to do it that will slant it toward immediate rejection. If you go in talking about the Buddha and inviting masters with shaved heads for lectures, it's going to be perceived right away as some foreign cultural ideology - a belief system. Understandably so, it would likely be rejected.
Andy: Most of the patients who go through the clinics report positive reactions. Is there anyone who can't seem to deal with it?
Calvin: Very few, actually. To enter the program, you must be referred by your doctor, so right away the legitimacy of this approach has been established. The clients are not being sent to learn to heal; they're not being sent to have their symptoms go away or to master them. They're being sent as a palliative, to help them become more calm.
And, we're very up front. We tell people what we do, and that it's going to be an immediate lifestyle change: you have to carve out forty-five minutes a day six days a week for formal meditation practice. We explain that in order to get the benefits of the stress reduction program you've got to make one hell of a commitment to yourself. If they're willing to make that commitment, they're already primed to go. Ninety percent of the people we see are willing to make that commitment.
Andy: Then one reason your success rate is so high is that people know what to expect.
Calvin: Yes. We tell them right away that it's stressful to take the stress reduction program! If you want to accomplish something, a certain amount of energy and work is required. Many people have had their medical complaint for seven years or longer. If there's any hope to use their own inner resources of mind and body to mitigate the physical and emotional pain, it doesn't come from wishful thinking. There has to be a certain grounding of intense work. That's the price of admission. And people love it, because they've never been talked to that way!
Andy: They appreciate the honesty.
JCalvin: Absolutely. We're saying, look, we don't know you, but life's trajectory has dropped you into this office at this point. 'Me doctor says you're here for this and this, but you're more complicated than your symptoms. We don't know what will come out of going through this program for eight weeks, but the chances are that if you start paying attention to your life and begin to look at it without the tinted glasses you've been wearing, look more directly, there will be an opening.
Andy: What are the general results?
Calvin: Some people make more "progress" than others. But we really try to adhere to a framework of "non-doing." We're not that interested in progress. We're not even sure that we know how to recognize it. Many people experience symptom reduction while others have certain insights. They may be subtle and don't go off with neon lights, but they change one's relationship with, say, one's body or spouse. Even in some of the cases that we might scientifically label "failures," because they don't change in the ways that the majority do, people continue to practice. People whose pain hasn't gotten any better are practicing with the original guided meditation tape five, ten years later. When I ask them, "Why? This isn't helping your pain at all," they respond 'That's alright. It's still better when I do it than when I don't."
Andy: Besides the techniques, what else do people come away with?
Calvin: A lot of people drop the formal practice but maintain the mindfulness in daily living. They've developed it as a life skill. In times of great stress or pain, they know how to go to their breathing, to use it to calm down and broaden the field of perception, so that they can see with a larger perspective.
Andy: People somehow internalize, not simply the technique, but where it's coming from.
Calvin: Exactly. And that's our emphasis. We don't want a group of imitators when we get through with them, nor a group of super-meditators who are all tripped out about meditation. What we want are people who are basically strong, flexible, and balanced, and have a perspective on their own inner being that is accepting and generous.
Andy: Do you feel that the foundations of the program are Buddhist principles?
Calvin: Without question. Mindfulness is often spoken of as the heart of Buddhist meditation. It was one of the major teachings of the Buddha, ramified through all of the different traditions of Asia. We try to teach in a way that combines intuitively the best of the Vipassana orientation with the most accessible and least cryptic of the Zen energy. The combination is quite wonderful.
We use the breath as a major focus of awareness, and then we integrate it with a range of different experiences. Then we get mindfulness of breathing with emotional waves as they rise up in the mind and the body, mindfulness of sounds and thoughts and feelings and external situations that may be threatening or joyous or whatever.
The techniques are secondary to the cultivation of what in Zen would be called "clear mind." In order to have a certain clarity of mind, you have to develop a certain amount of calmness. We're trying to cultivate calmness and concentration in a context of clarity, perception, and mindfulness.
Andy: Do people become dependent on you?
Calvin: Most of the people we see don't trust themselves at all when they first come in. They don't trust their own bodies, they don't trust their own experience. Usually they want someone else, like the doctor, to be the authority. We work very hard not to fall into that. The temptation is very great to be the guru, the great expert in meditation. In fact, we are constantly working to mirror back to them not to make us into somebody special. If anybody's special, we're all special.
We teach the need to trust your body, even if you feel that it has betrayed you with cancer. We teach the need to know those parts of yourself that are more right with you than wrong with you. You begin to discover that there's an awful lot right with you, just by virtue of having a body and having the breath go in and out.
People do start to experience a greater sense of caring for others, grounded in a revolutionary newfound caring for themselves.
Andy: It sounds like there is a transformation.
Calvin: Yes. I don't want to overstate the case. The two fundamental things that most people get out of the program, independent of symptom reduction, are these. First, the breath is an ally and can be used to calm down and see more clearly. The other, related discovery, is that you are not the content of your thoughts. You don't have to believe them or react to them. That's incredibly liberating.
Andy: Are any of these experiences comparable to what we call awakening or enlightenment in Buddhist practice?
Calvin: A lot of people come to the meditation centers with a lot of baggage, a lot of expectations. They already "know" about enlightenment, and they want it. That's a big impediment. The people we see, they don't know about enlightenment, they don't WANT it! They're coming because of their suffering; it's a situation made to order for Buddhist work.
Comparing it with various levels of enlightenment experiences is difficult: we don't work with people for very long eight weeks, and then they can come back and recharge their batteries. People do have small experiences of going beyond themselves, of transcendence. We've had several people who have had knock-your-socks-off enlightenment experiences, of the self falling away and so forth. You know it immediately, because the vocabulary that they use is so unusual in describing it. But we don't set this as a goal in people's minds. It's more a question of developing one's own inner wisdom for right living and right awareness.
Andy: I've heard some stories about just how strongly people are affected.
Calvin: There was a famous trial in Massachusetts a few years ago. The defense lawyer was a long-term Vipassana student. After the jury had been selected, the judge delivered instructions on how to listen to evidence. It was pure mindfulness teaching: moment-to-moment, dispassionate, non-judgmental awareness - listening mind. The lawyer approached the judge later and asked, "Where the hell did you get that?" The judge replied "Oh, I'm taking the stress reduction class at the U. Mass, Medical Center, and it seemed we could use a little more mindfulness in our judicial proceedings."
Andy: And what about the medical students themselves? As more and more of them take this course, how do you see them taking it into their work?
Calvin: One of our ulterior motives is to transform the way medicine is practiced. We don't have a health care system; we have a disease care system. We are trying to influence doctors and medical students in the direction of mindfulness: mindful practice of medicine, mindful communication with people who are hurting, mindful encounter with the patient as a whole person. It's almost axiomatic that people have to cultivate awareness in their own lives, in their own bodies, if they are going to be able to develop empathy and compassion for the people they see.
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If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
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no ####?
I said that?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I think we both were on shroomers....I just really can't rememberIf Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
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So, um, er, Andy, Do you have Workers compensation on your employees or not?
So, um, er, Andy, Do you have Workers compensation on your employees or not?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I believe I wrote within these threads somewhere that I do. Not just becasuse I want to but also because I have to in order to hold a contractors liscense.
If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
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Thanks.
It would seem that you could use some basic teaching/education courses. If you want your workers to be consciences & sensitive to your wims,>>>>>>>>>>>>>Wims? could use some "basic" education courses? A little catty aren't we?
I've had this business now for over 32 years. Mostly working on customers homes and about half a dozen of my own and from the looks of things I think I'm doing OK.
And where are you getting all your information from? Not from my posts you're not.
Everything is spelled out to my potential employees in their phone and in person interviews and its the first week or so when one really knows how good someone is or isn't. Its the first cpl of weeks in the real world/on the job that things fall into place...or not. As I said in one of my posts..."some" people are more difficult to read than others.
And as you and Jerry (Jerrald) seem to twist things around to suit your own theories as do some employees. Some more than others.Far as rain days go...I almost always have things for them to do but in the present moment I do not and I told them that very clearly from the get go. Some people actually like that as does my other employee Ted. He has side jobs he wants to do so that works out great for him as well as me. Actually I had quite a few guys that called me regarding my help wanted ads expressing the same thing. A lot of these guys do little handy man things on the side.
a...
If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
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"I told him to wrap some duct tape around it and get back to work. What a flippin' baby!!!
The minute he said hospital and no insurance I said (to myself) FIRED! This guys trouble waiting to happen"
Andy, another thing to consider besides all the stuff of fireing him, L&I, hospitals, etc. You could get "Dinged" with liability for "prescribing" duct tape and telling him to go back to work.
A good lawyer could make the argument that you made a medical decision that put his/her client in danger. At my former employers company the sup's and foreman were instructed by reps from our insurance company that even if an employee has a headache don't even tell them to take aspirin. They should know where the first aid kit is on the jobsite because you have told them each week in your weekly safety meetings, and documented it in you weekly safety reports that they have been informed where the first aid kit is on site and what the emergency procedures are regarding accidents and accident forms/ protocols. They should fill out an accident form even if they get a fart crossways and it seems so inconsequential and minor.
I know it's tempting to not want to do all this stuff, because afterall getting out from under the burden of all that crap is probably a big factor why many of us wanted to go into business for ourselves anyway. Because you believed "It won't happen to me", you could be in for a whole world of crap you really don't want to go through. I wouldn't kid yourself too much longer.
BjR
You could get "Dinged" with liability for "prescribing" duct tape and telling him to go back to work. >>>>>>>>>>>If some A-hole is looking to do that he's gonna do it even if you didn't say it....and then some...ya know?If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
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I know your plight. I am convinced that there are two types of people in the building trades. Those that chose to be in it and select it as a career and those that get there by process of elimination. By the later I mean that they have failed at everything else and they know that everyone is good at something so they assume that it is the trade that they are currently trying.
I feel as though that I am partially the cause of my own problems. It could be sheer laziness on my part that I accept workers that are not up to par and I do not let them feel my wrath when they do not deliver.
It isn't very often that I run accross a worker or sub that I feel knows his trade and what should be done better than I do. I feel that most of the time the subs have the skill but are unwilling to apply it.
Bilbo