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I hate crown molding!

Senna | Posted in Construction Techniques on November 12, 2004 07:56am

I am trying to figure out how to install crown molding and more importantly have nice tight joints.

I followed the video tip on the Fine homebuilding site and made up a mitre jig for my chop saw. Unfortunately my saw is too small for a jig for the size molding I am using.

I then spent several hours trying to figure out how to cut it flat. Which I did but it seems to me it would be next to impossible to get a perfect fit at each corner. I tried several test pieces and it’s not easy.

My thinking is this….make up corner pieces first and glue them together and attach them to the wall. Yes I know you can buy them pre-made but if I make them myself then they will fit each corner perfectly. Then once the corners are up I’ll add a backing plate and attach a straight piece between each corner. The question is will I be able to hide the splice joints sufficiently so that they cannot be seen?

Is this the way to go or should I suck it up and try to do it the way pro’s do?

Reply

Replies

  1. cardiaceagle | Nov 12, 2004 01:14pm | #1

    Suck it up......

    Figure out if your crown is the 38 degree stuff or the 45 degree stuff....

    if its not either of those degrees, go get some,......

    no point making live harder for a first time crown install.....

    most saws have circle and triangle marks on the mitre and bevel scales.....

    match these up to the right angle crown and your flying......

    learn to cope your inside corners......

    one more tip ..... learn to cope your inside corners....

                                                                      regards

    p.s.   learn to cope your inside corners.....or hire it out....or don't do anything

  2. NEXTLEVEL | Nov 12, 2004 02:00pm | #2

    Explaining how to install crown mold with a typed message would be difficult at best.  Not to talk you out of mitering your ccrners or coping your corners, but you could use crown blocks.  HD or Lowe's sells them and you can get them for inside and outside corners.  After you install them you just square cut the crown molding to fit.  They actually look quite in some applications.  They add  a fancey look.  WE have used them several times at a builder's request.  They have predrilled holes for trim screws to fasten them to the wall.  Otherwise, you will have to go thru the process of learning how to cope or cut miters along with some other important tips.

    James Hart

    1. User avater
      skyecore | Nov 12, 2004 02:31pm | #4

      oh yeah, crown blocks! great Idea!!

  3. User avater
    skyecore | Nov 12, 2004 02:29pm | #3

    you will never be able to hide those splice loints. It's a good idea but walls are never perfect and they would need to be for that to work. If youre having trouble with the inside corners then I would agree about learning to cope. The great thing about it is that its pretty brainless, not really easy, you still havto be a perfectionist, but it doesent make your brain melt like compound mitres can. Simply cut the moulding at a 45. now on the bottom of the moulding its flat right?, but the top has a profile to it. You need to cut, with almost as steep of an angle as possible, follow that profile with the coping saw. After you are done cutting, if you want to be a perfectionist, (i read this in FHB one of the write in tips i think) you can take a scrap of the moulding, spray glue on it, and attatch a piece of sand paper to it making a perfect block.. But having said all of that. I must admit that i only cope when its going to be finished wood (not painted) if its going to painted I just mitre them and if they dont fit too good I caulk the #$^% out of them.

  4. User avater
    NickNukeEm | Nov 12, 2004 02:39pm | #5

    Anything worth doing is worth doing right (my kids grew very tired of hearing that addage before they left for college.)  To help do it right you should invest in a decent miter saw (one that will accomodate your molding and cut it with accuracy (no runout = a saw well built, something like a Bosch, Makita, etc.)  Secondly, if you haven't attempted crown before, long before picking up a hammer you should invest in Gary Katz's Finish Carpentry (should be sold at the Taunton website, if not there then it's at the JLC website.)  He also has out a coupla DVDs on mastering the miter saw in which I believe he walks you thru various trimouts using the miter saw.

    And learn how to cope.  Walls move, settle, etc.  Coped joints will remain much tighter than mitered, and learn much better as well.

    I never met a tool I didn't like!
    1. Senna | Nov 13, 2004 03:12am | #10

      I have a ten inch Craftsman saw. I don't think that there are too many saws that would fit the size of molding I am using. It's 5 inch, 45 degree, MDF.

      I can't see how over a 15 foot run you can possibly get a really good tight corners. I understand that you don't cope MDF crown.

      1. User avater
        skyecore | Nov 13, 2004 04:23am | #12

        I've coped MDF crown before, Its delicate but it works fine. If you're un-clear on it, go to that gary kats website that was linked to earlier, then go to tool reviews, then some coping jig(forgot the name of it) he's got a bunch of pics, wether you use the jig or not you can see how its done.

      2. DougU | Nov 13, 2004 04:34am | #13

        Is it possible for you to hire a carpenter  that can help you for a day/partial day.

        You will get the up close and personal help that you need.

        It seems a shame to do it half-azzed, you got to live with it for a while, just as well do it right.

        Doug

        1. JerBear | Nov 13, 2004 05:36am | #14

          Doug had the best advice.  If you could work with someone who is really good at it, even if only for a day, then the rest is practice.  Unfortunately it is very difficult to get the top notch results in something like crown moulding if the installer doesn't have the know how and practice in their hands.  That being said however, you can achieve very good and professional results if you take it slow and learn each step and ask the questions just like you are doing here.  Crown is much more simple once you get the concept of the steps, and learn some tricks and shortcuts.

      3. TOOLS1 | Nov 13, 2004 08:44am | #15

        I would go with the corner blocks. I cant understand why your saw wont cut the trim. I always cope the end on the left. To cut it. I turn it over and cut it upside down at a 45 Degree angle. Then cope it.

        If you are near SC let me know. I can be hired for a day.

        Kip

        1. Senna | Nov 13, 2004 10:08am | #16

          Thanks but I am a very stubborn DIY'er.

          I am going to make up my own corners blocks and try it that way first.

          1. xMikeSmith | Nov 15, 2004 08:23am | #19

            asenad... don't go with corner blocks..

             try running crown on a bookcase or something smaller at first..

            once you have the miters cut correctly.. then you have to learn to glue & nail the miters 

            once you have that technique it becomes a question of accurate measuremnts of your run.. and one joint leads to another..

             gary katz book is a great beginning

            a good set of tools like  a Collins Coping foot and his spring steel miter hooks are great aids alsoMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          2. Senna | Nov 16, 2004 10:20am | #20

            Well somebody said it all I needed was practice, and that's what wworked for me.

            I did a number of small cuts and played around first before trying my hand at the longest wall. Made a mess of it but was able to fix it. Got the hang of it in no time. And I hung it all by myself. Used the info on http://www.altereagle.com

            I am going to pat myself on the back because my mitres turned out better than I could ever imagine. I measured them all and made adjustments so that they all came out watertight.

            Question how best to measure walls moldings?

            Can't hold a tape up on the walls so I took a old piece of trim, of known length, and marked off one end while holding the other end to a wall. Measured the remaining length and added to find the approximate length. Close but not accurate enough. Still had to make many trips trimming the molding to length.

          3. User avater
            CapnMac | Nov 16, 2004 07:53pm | #23

            Question how best to measure walls moldings?

            Real cheap helper/gofer is best.  Said worthy can also preposition ladders/staging/etc., while you are cutting.

            Sometimes that's not an option.  Then, use a stout thumbtack (I keep some aluminum bodied--not plastic--in the toolbox for this sort of thing) to hold the end of the tape.  Be sure to only tack where the moulding goes (not that I would do anything that half-donkied, not more than once, well, where anybody was watching . . . <g>).

            A previous post recommended practicing.  A good place to practice is the inside of closets.  They have a bunch of joints, so you are getting the work in.  They often have every kind of corner, so you get to hone up all the skills.  Also, you can "get away' with working with differnt moulding sizes in different closets.  (Some future owner and/or carpenter will scratch their heads about the moulding in the closets--but, hey, that a good ways down the road, and will make for a great thread . . . )  Closet also means if you have to rip it down and start over, and damage that creates is not on public display.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

          4. Shep | Nov 17, 2004 01:15am | #28

              I've used a story pole to take measurements when my tape won't reach.

              Simply take 2 sticks- 1x2 is good if you've got it; you need something fairly light.

              Hold 1 stick in one corner, and the other in the opposite corner. Clamp them together, and use it to transfer the length to your moulding. Simple, yet effective.

             

          5. blue_eyed_devil | Nov 17, 2004 03:26am | #29

            I always take two pieces of shoe molding (or equal) and slide them apart till they touch both walls. I hold them snugly till I can lay them down and either measure them or mark the trim against them.

            I call them idiot sticks...any idiot can do it...

            blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

          6. maverick | Nov 17, 2004 05:20am | #31

            >>Question how best to measure walls moldings?

            I always work from an inside corner. Cut the crown long. cope or miter, whatever your pleasure then put the piece up and trace the outside corner onto the back of the crown with a pencil. do the same with the mating piece then cut to the line and slap them together.

            a simple trick. if you cut a piece just a little too short, take a couple of shavings off the back of the crown with a block plane. its the closest thing to a board stretcher your gonna get

          7. User avater
            JeffBuck | Nov 16, 2004 07:56pm | #24

            Mike ...

            when we were in trade school ... in Finish Carpentry .... the very first thing we had to build was a round top table with an "X" bottom .... the top was a 3/4 ply circle ..

            that "X" would be the top view ... looking down on it.

            made the frames outta 2x6 ..... skinned the thing in drywall ....

            then turned the table upsidedown.

            makes for inside and outside corners on 3 ft tall walls ...

            then .... we trimmed. again and again.

            when crown time came ... we added a ply circle top .... and that was the ceiling ...

            then we crowned .... and crowned ...

            after getting the basics .... we had to trim the one's the teachers made ... purposely outta square .... looked cool with base/shoe ... chair rail ... picture rail ... and crown.

            Jeff

  5. mike4244 | Nov 12, 2004 05:03pm | #6

    I agree it is hard to explain coping crown in print, I'm gonna try anyhow.First  thing determine the angle of your crown, most crown is 38 degrees.If so, your saw may have arrows at the proper angles. I do not recall exactly, do a search on the net, several sites will give you the swing and bevel angles for different crowns.

    Place crown upside down on mitersaw, the cove is up, when installed the cove is down.Swing saw to 45 degrees to the left, bevel is about 34 degrees ( not exact, check saw for arrow or website for angles ).For an outside miter, slide crown to the right, cut left end of crown.This will be the left side of outside miter, this is because the crown is cut in the upside down position.Next cut will make the right outside miter, do the opposite. Slide crown left, swing saw to left and cut the right side of crown. This will give you outside miter if the corner is 90 degrees.If the corner is not an exact 90, find the angle and divide it in half. Example, 92 degree angle, use 46 degrees in stead of 45.I forgot to mention the crown must touch the fence and the saw bed exactly, crown stops would be helpful. Even a stop screwed to plywood extension bed will be fine.

    For inside corners, place crown upside down again, cut inside miter same as for a mitered corner. Follow same directions for positioning crown for left and right miters.After making cut, lightly clamp crown against fence. I use a saber saw with a fine toothed blade to cope, coping saw will do. You must remove the waste 45 degrees to the existing profile. With a saber saw this is automatic. Leave base at normal horizontal position. Place saw base on mitered cut, you will see if you start sawing you will back cut the profile.Before sawing, make relief cuts at the ogee, and the flat steps. The flats where the cove and the ogee starts have to be paper thin. If you leave too much material at these spots you will not be able to push up the coped piece for a perfect fit.

    Cope the joint, check with a small cutoff of crown.You will probably have to do a bit of sanding to get perfect fit. I do not use files or rasps, I use homemade sanding sticks from dowels and flat stock,much faster and cleaner. I staple sandpaper to the sticks , PSA paper is even better.

    mike

    1. User avater
      CapnMac | Nov 16, 2004 07:39pm | #22

      the cove is up, when installed the cove is down.

      LoL!

      Sorry that this is off-topic, but that reminded me of a 1/2 million parade-of-homes house in Austin I saw--all of the crown moulding was installed upside down.  (Even the bed mould on the kitchen cabinets--gues they matched the crown in the rest of the house . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

      1. mike4244 | Nov 16, 2004 08:58pm | #25

        How about clamshell molding installed backwards. My fatherinlaw many years ago did this in his summer house. He did a nice job of mitering the trim but had the thin edge of the clamshell to the outside. I never told him it was backwards, just said he did a nice job.

        Not hard to understand a guy installing crown upside down, probably his first time.I've been doing crown for more years than I care to say, don't mind saying I spent an entire day trying out how to cut and cope it. Called my uncle that night, he traveled from Buffalo NY to south jersey to show me how.He said that trying to explain it over the phone was a waste of time, I hope explaining it over the net goes a little better.

        mike

        1. xMikeSmith | Nov 16, 2004 09:06pm | #26

          now that's a great uncle... you are the fortunate 1Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

        2. User avater
          CapnMac | Nov 17, 2004 01:13am | #27

          a guy installing crown upside down, probably his first time

          Except that this was an entire finishing crew.

          In all fairness, they built that half-million, 4800 sf, monstrosity with only four pages of drawings.  Millwork was cheapest you could get in a box prefinished that was not KD or flat-pack.

          Probably the only instruction was "moldeado aiya, pronto, pronto!"Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

        3. JerBear | Nov 17, 2004 04:37am | #30

          Mike smith took the words outa my mouth.  A good uncle like that is priceless.

  6. gordsco | Nov 12, 2004 05:05pm | #7

    Welcome to the "skill" part of the trade. Fewer joints are better from my perspective.

    Sounds like you need some practice.

    Mark the wall and ceiling (lightly), so you have a "fixed" reference point. To start it is better to adjust your cuts than where it sits on the wall.

    Get some smaller crown, cut it standind up, just like it would be on the wall.

    Get on the ladder and fit some short pieces untill you get it right

    Lay the fitted cuts flat on the compound miter saw and adjust the tilt and the angle of the blade untill it matches the cut on the fitted crown.

    Try cutting and fitting some pieces on the flat.

    Hard to explain a 3 dimensional cut on paper but with practice you can begin to visualize the minor adjustments you will need to make to get some solid fits.

    I avoid cutting large crown with thin kerf or dull blades. Flex in the blade can screw up a perfect cut.

  7. User avater
    jagwah | Nov 12, 2004 06:10pm | #8

    This site might give you some help. Gary has a lot of photos that might aid you.

    http://www.garymkatz.com/

     

  8. maverick | Nov 12, 2004 08:13pm | #9

    If you cannot fit your crown on your miter saw consider doing a built up crown with several different smaller mouldings.

    Start off with a square block of wood then add a bed moulding from the block to the cieling and some cove moulding under the block to the wall.

    another trick trimmers use to give the appearance of a larger crown is to install a colonial baseboard moulding upside down on the wall first, under the crown. When it is all painted it looks like one piece.

    experiment with different profiles. Dont think those ornate 14" crown mouldings you see on the cieling of the local bank were cut in one piece

  9. dinothecarpenter | Nov 13, 2004 03:24am | #11

    It's EZ.

    Before you nail the molding...make sure the corners meet.

  10. User avater
    goldhiller | Nov 13, 2004 05:23pm | #17

    Here ya go.

    Use the links at the bottom of the page to continue with the lessons.

    http://www.altereagle.com/How_to_install.html

    Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
  11. andybuildz | Nov 13, 2004 06:10pm | #18

    If you honestly do care then my advice is to hire a top notch trim guy in your area for one full day to teach you.

    Might cost you about $500 for the day but you'll get a whole lot of trim up and learn in the process.

    It really has to be hands on.

    Be well

    andy

    The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!

    When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..

      I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,

    I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.

    I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you

    and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.

     

     


     

    http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

  12. wrick2003 | Nov 16, 2004 03:06pm | #21

         Crown moulding is the reason why individuals spend years learning and polishing their craft. The complexity of it's installation should be left to qualified professionals who have earned the library of tricks necessary to make it look flat on a bent line, and who know when and how to use a solid or a viscous filler for the gaps.

         I never hate crown moulding. It's been very $$$$$ good to me.

         Quit yer gripin'. rg

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