Replies

1. 
   JTC1 | Jul 14, 2007 09:39pm | #1

   You are correct that the situation is not good.

   This could get sticky from a troubleshooting standpoint.  If I understand your post the entire outdoor system of lights and GFCI's are fed power by a fourway switching system (2 - 3 way switches and 1 - 4 way in the middle of the run?

   If yes, I would go to the first switch in the switching system - the only one with an unswitched power feed.  I would determine if the polarity is correct at that feed. No? Correct it. Problem is somewhere between that switch and the SEP.

   Yes? Then go to the last switch in the system, the one wire which feeds the entire outdoor system - check polarity there on your "line out" to the outdoor system. If polarity is good at this point the problem is in your new work outdoors - probably very early on in your new runs. If no then the problem is in the switching system.

   Good luck!

   Jim

   Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

   EDIT: Tip off in 3 way and 4 way switch boxes as to incorrect wiring - if there is a white wire connected to any switch - this is probably your problem box. Power should enter at one end of the switching run in a 2 conductor cable, travel between switches in 3 conductor cable and exit to the outdoor system again in a 2 conductor cable.  "2 conductor" = black, white and bare ground. "3 conductor" = black, red, white and bare ground. 

   
   

   ---

   Edited 7/14/2007 2:54 pm ET by JTC1

1. 
   BillHartmann | Jul 14, 2007 10:08pm | #5

   " if there is a white wire connected to any switch - "NO, NO, NOIn switch leg wiring a white will be connected to the switch. Current code requires that it be remakred. But I don't think that was practice in older codes. I see a lot that aren't.And switch leg wiring can change in the middle if it not a simple run.But you have to look at the overall picture.It is not clear, but it seems that he also has a GFCI receptacle that is also affected.If so, unless the switches control that receptacle. He has a problem BEFORE THE SWITCHES..
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   A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

1. 
   JTC1 | Jul 14, 2007 10:21pm | #6

   Agreed.

   There are many places where this could go wacky.  Yes, switch legs connect the white to the switch --- but if the outdoor feed was a switch leg, where would the outdoor system get it's neutral? 

   I was trying to supply the OP with the most basic starting points for troubleshooting purposes.

   Jim

   Never undestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

    

    

1. 
   BillHartmann | Jul 14, 2007 10:36pm | #7

   If it is a "pure" switch leg (power and switches connected at the fixture) then the neutral comes from the power connection. There is no neutral anyplace in the 3 siwtch chain.And you can have power feed in one at one box and the fixture at another so that part of the siwtch circuit is a switch leg and part of it carries a neutral from the box with a power source to the box where the fixture connects..
   .
   A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

2. 
   renosteinke | Jul 14, 2007 09:39pm | #2

   There are two things you need to do.
   You need a neutral at the fixture .... and you need to re-wire the 3-way switches.

   This is how the switches ought to be wired:

   ----Hot to common screw-----< =======two 'travelers' from 3-way to 4-way==== X =====two travelers from 4-way to last 3-way =====>---hot wire to light, using common screw ---O - - - - Neutral from light to panel.

   ----<=====X=====>----O - - - -

3. 
   JTC1 | Jul 14, 2007 09:59pm | #3

   See edit added to 342.2

   Jim

   Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

4. 
   BillHartmann | Jul 14, 2007 10:04pm | #4

   How did you test it?

   IIRC the simple 3 light testers can get a false response for some other problem. It might be a open neutral, but I am not sure.

   And how did you test the lights?

   Is this a GFCI receptacle and not a breaker. How is this related to the ligths. IE, if the GFCI trips are the lights dead. If so them you need to fix the feed to the receptacle and the lights will also be fixed (assuming no other mistakes).

   And even if they are fed in paralllel most likely the is some common point before the GFCI and switche where they are reversed.

   "If yes, I would go to the first switch in the switching system - the only one with an unswitched power feed. I would determine if the polarity is correct at that feed. No? Correct it. Problem is somewhere between that switch and the SEP.

   Yes? Then go to the last switch in the system, the one wire which feeds the entire outdoor system - check polarity there on your "line out" to the outdoor system.'

   The problem with those responses is that they only cover one way of wiring up 3/4 ways. The feed and the load can be connected at any combination of the switch or none at all if they are on a switch leg.

   This link so the combinations.

   http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/switchoutlet/4way/

   If the problem is at one of the switch boxes that box will have at least 3 cables (conduit). Power in, Power to the GFCI, and connections to the other switch or load.

   ****CAUTION****

   MAKING ANY CHANGES ON THE SWITCHES UNTIL THE EXACT PROBLEM IS UNDERSTOOD CAN LEAD TO TOTAL MESS.

   ***CAUTION****

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   .
   A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
5. 
   38669227 | Jul 14, 2007 11:33pm | #8

   Thanks everyone! I'll go over the entire circuit once again and test it.

   If worse comes to worse, I'll get a pro sparky and let him scratch his head.

1. 
   JTC1 | Jul 16, 2007 02:58am | #9

   Let us know what'cha find.

   Jim

   Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.