Well at this point he’s actually more of an aquaintance. 2 years ago we drywalled his basement (high end house 1600 sq ft basement, huge project). Since then he occasionally calls me to “help him out” on small tasks around his house. What this generally means is I bring my tools and work all day for what he feels is fair rate.
This time he expects to hang a pull down stair AND deck his attic for $200. Normally I wouldnt touch the stair for that money. He even had the balls to suggest that two hundy would be what he thinks he’d pay for labor if he didnt lift a finger.
What do you do with guys like this? His opinion is that “I dont make that much in a day, why should I pay you that much?”.
He thinks that by helping and “paying me under the table” thats more than enough.
I dont really hang out with this guy socially and I dont need his “fair wage”, what would you do?
I think I need to explain to him I dont work for a deemed wage, but for what my company needs to make in a day.
To be honest he’s pretty condescending about what “trades people” are worth.
Replies
screw him, tell him to find someone else that would be willing to work for 3x what he's offering, and once he can't, and once he realizes he needs your help and will pay you a decent wage, tell him to take a hike
be busy else where if if it's doing nothing...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I would double my price and when he balks tell him to find someone else. Like you said it started out small and now it's getting out of hand. Like Ann Landers says 'someone can only make a fool of you if you let them"
Orbs
tell him the 200$ is a start and how much you will be getting over and above that...
and how much more it will cost for extras....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
BTW... price it to make up for lost wages, OH amd PM....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You could be diplomatic about it and explain to him the error in his thinking
Me? I'd tell him to piss off
What's he got on you? Naked pictures with a goat?
You should have never gotten that started. Of course you know that now. Tell him how you feel. I just posted in another thread that I charge $75.00 an hour for side work. I rarely do any, and that's great with me. It's also what you would pay an electrical contractor after hours or on the weekend to work. And that's what I tell them. You want a pro you got to pay a pro.
Wake me up before you go-go.
Man I wish you guys could agree on something.:>) I guess I knew my answer coming in.
we did...
piss off or pay the rate...
now all that remains is are gonna do the work...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm really not sure. If I do, this will be the last time. I know this guy well enough to know that when I tell him that his rate is not gonna cut it, he'll bail. He's even tried to get me to work this weekend for a bedroom set he doesnt want anymore.
Almost laughed at that one.
inflate the rate even further then...
this character has got to go...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
...the phrase to use is "buh bye"....used is what you have done with something...not what you allow to be done to you.
Short and sweet, cut it now and be done...like Gunner said..
...keep smiling...makes 'em wonder what you're up to !!
I said 100$... which was very fair and I was right there...
they said 75$....
I said a buck fifty..
they whined like they had 2 sets of lips...
I said 200... and asked if they wanted out...
more whining....
call if you you want it for the 250$ I havta get....
same kind of character...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I said 100$... which was very fair and I was right there...
they said 75$....
I said a buck fifty..
they whined like they had 2 sets of lips...
I said 200... and asked if they wanted out...
more whining....
call if you you want it for the 250$ I havta get....
same kind of character...
I had a similar situation;
Did a lot of work for a guy for 20 years, he always had to dicker with the price, good friend so I played the game with him, even told him I was adding 20% just so I had the cushion to come down, it was a game and always had fun with it.
Well his daughter buys a house and she starts in with the same thing, she aint my friend of 20 years!
I'm refacing her kitchen and she wants a bid from me for painting the house, I get her a written bid, she starts in on her "renegotiation" BS. I took the bid out of her hand and tell her that the price has now gone from $800 to $1000, her jaw drops, I explain to her that I can change any of my bids if she's not happy but I realy dont want to go much higher on this one, I'd feel bad if I did.
After some whinning we painted for the $1000, never had to renegotiate any more bids for her.
Sorry MSA for the hijack.
Doug
it was a leaking MIP/compression type adaptor from rigid copper to pex...
heard later they paid 325$Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I would cewrtinly laugh - then offer to disount how much I'll charge to haul it to the dump for him
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
msa1, I got caught up in one of those situations years ago, cept it was a pretty good buddy, free help and lots of it. When we got through fixing up his fixer upper......he sold it for a very nice profit and his selective memory kicked in and he forgot about all the ''help'' got.
Had a similiar experience just recently, give me a deal cuz I got all these people that I'll tell them that your the best yada yada.
Now I have a old customer that feeds me lots of work and referrals 150,000.00 over the last 5 years, so when he needs something he gets my attention and a small break in price.
Bottom line with other guy, I just told him he can't afford me and I can't afford to work for him. Lots of people go to the big boxes and get a price on a item, and then determine how much the labor should be. Stay clear of these people as they will always go for the cheapest price as they have already determined what labor should be.
Tell him to go sh1t in his fist.
Seriously, why even bother with this guy? Sooner or later you gotta realize the problem isn't this clown......it's the other clown. The one who keeps showing up to work for $200 a day. Next time he calls tell him that this ain't a hobby for you and you don't need the practice.
Sure cant argue with that. Thanks Diesel. I think you guys have talked me into a phone call tomorrow. You're absolutely right.
In reading the replies i'm thinking to myself, I wouldnt even consider doing this for other people I dont know what it is about this guy. We werent even great friends back then, we played in a band together for about three years, thats it.
"...this ain't a hobby for you and you don't need the practice."
- gotta write that one down for later... :-)
If he doesn't make that much in a day, how can he build a high end house?
Maybe you need to show him how much people in the trades make and point out that since he can't do this stuff himself, he'll have to pay someone to do it, at the going rate.
If he doesn't make that much in a day, how can he build a high end house?
That was my thought too. Not that it should affect his decision, though.
One thing that many people who work for a company don't realize is that they actually get "paid" a lot more than their paycheck might lead them to believe. Health benefits, social security, life insurance, sick days, vacation, etc. probably add another 50% to whatever they calculate as their daily rate. On top of that, there's property rental, heating and lighting, office equipment (desk, phone, computer), etc.
IF it were really fair to compare daily rates (note the big IF), salaried people should be comparing TWICE what their paycheck shows.
-Don
IF it were really fair to compare daily rates (note the big IF), salaried people should be comparing TWICE what their paycheck shows.
I have to disagree. The only way to compare rates would be to figure what their employer would bill a client for their time. Have to include overhead and profit for the company, which generally makes the billing rate significantly more than twice their paycheck. If you're working as an independent business, the amount you bring home to Momma is significantly less than half what you charge. I charge $50/hr., my standard of living is probably equivalent to a $17/hr. employee."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
The only way to compare rates would be to figure what their employer would bill a client for their time.
Actually, we don't disagree. You just said it a little better than me, but it's what I was driving at.
-Don
i have a good friend who has a few bucks and has helped me out several times. truth is i wouldnt be where i am if it wasnt for him. but after several years of doing things back and forth for each it got confusing as to who owed who. one day we agreed that we no longer owed each other anything. makes for a better friendship and i can now do small things as a friend when i want and charge him the going rate when needed.
let him know that you can only burry so much from the tax man. if your aquantence is a friend, then he should have no problem.
good luck
Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
I know 200 is not much to some people and especially those in business for themselves, but 200 is 20 a hour for ten hour with out uncle sam.I myself would jump on it in a heart beat, money money.
If you are dealing with a friend, then you shouldn't be worried about who'se in front at the moment. It all works out in the end.
If you are dealing with somebody that always wants a little more, then that says something about the friendship.
I've got a buddy who has been there for me regularly since my dad died 6 years ago. He'll take my cars to get inspected, or work on them himself, do clean ups, demolition and yard work and on and on. He's even been tangentially involved in my real estate stuff - gave me 50K loan without any paperwork between us. Last summer he said he wanted a roof on his house. I got and paid the crew, he paid for materials and soda and we did it.
Big difference when you are dealing with sombody that treats you with respect.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Like I said, more of an aquaintance. Years ago we played in a band together and now the only time he calls is if he has some work to be done.
I think he likes to think he helps but he mainly watches.
Friends and family are charged half the normal fee on small stuff, except for mom and those who just need advice. It keeps them from taking advantage and at least buys lunch.
No one takes advantage of you that you don't let them. Since this has been going on for awhile and you say the guy is condescending about trades people it is because he thinks they are all suckers.........like you. DanT
Don't work for him.
Had a similar deal happen, I was insulted and told him so and that was that.
Until he called me up again damn near begging for help.
Did I help him?
Grunge on. http://grungefm.com
Give him my number MSA1. I'll ballpark a bid for $1000 or so over the phone.
blue
Blue, I can always count on you to keep the margins up.
Happy ending, I just did the stair and got my price.
Glad to see you resolved it. I would have just said that with the economy and rising costs and better education in running my business; now dictates that to do this amount of work for you needs to be $XXXX.XX Otherwise, you would rather use that time for someone else to pay you the $XXXX.XX you need for that time.That way it is not personal, but professional.
Way to handle your business dude. Feels better huh? It sucks to go around carrying a resentment like that against someone. You're lugging it around and it's sucking up all your energy, all the while the target is oblivious to your festering anger and carrying on with business as usual. The only one who gets hurt by the whole thing is you.
Much better to just lay your cards out on the table like you did with this guy. Healthier all around and now the guy has something to ponder. Like why he'd jeapordize a good relationship over a day's pay. In the end, a person like that will usually end up having more respect for you for speaking up for yourself. It's entirely possible that he was just ignorant to the error in his thinking. Someone just needed to turn the light on for him.View Image
MSA
I dont have a problem with the amount of money for the job, hell theirs a lot of people out there not making $200 for a days worth of work, where my problem comes is someone telling me how much I should get for the job!
I dont make as much as a dentist but I,ve got a tooth ache and I'll be damned if I'm going to go in and argue with the Dentist about how much she should charge and whinne about how I dont even make that much for a days worth of work.
Tell the bum your sorry that he dont make that much, tell him to go get a different job!
Doug
First of all, you started this mess by agreeing to it, then you continued to do it. Why should he change his ways? If you want out, you can have out, but you need to take resposibility for it, because it's your doing. I know it's hard, but you need to confront this person and tell him what's so for you. Otherwise you're going to hold it against him unfairly (as if you aren't already), and stew about it like you are here. If he gives you grief, then take a long look at why you would ever want this person as a "friend" and what does this say about why you allow people like this in your life in the first place.
Ask him if he makes a "deal" with his auto mechanic, and if not, how much does he pay them by the hour.
When he goes to the grociery store and get 4 bags of groceries does he go the manager and say, "I want these 4 bags of groceries, but I am only going to pay for two". ? ... and then does he go on to dog the IGA for being such suckers and schmucks?
That's what he's doing here.
You're not hurting him right now, you're only hurting yourself.
You started it, you end it.
And end it I did. I spoke with him today, told him that betwenn my back problems and his price, there is no way it would even be worth it for me to come tomorrow.
We ended up keeping the price the same but half the work. Now were just putting in the stairs.
In the future he's just like any other client. If he wants work done i'll bid it thats it. He even asked about taking it out in trade, he has this bedroom set that he doesnt need anymore.......yadda yadda.....
Way to go! Feels good doesn't it?
If you have already indicated to him that you'd do the job, take the high road and do it. You get $200 for the last job you'll have to do for him. Don't make a big deal out of it - just do it, take the money and stay friends. Burning bridges can prove expensive in the long run.
You're only upset at the difference between the $200 and what you think it's worth, not the entire amount. And you're getting $200 for the lesson.
Have your pricing plan or refusal ready for the next request.
"Sometimes we get. Sometimes we get got"
My father once told me "Son, you could do nothing and make nothing!"
Its a no brainer, tell him what to do with himself..........FAST!
This guy thinks he'll get the labor elsewhere for $200.
Reminds me of conversations I have with my better half all the time. She says if I'm too busy to do some project around the house, she's going to hire somebody else and pay them to do it. I just laugh and tell her to go ahead. It's so busy around here that nobody will even return her call for six months, and she's clueless of the cost despite what I tell her.
For what she thinks things cost wouldn't pay for half the materials involved. She makes a good sounding board for the typical "consumer" though. ;-)
She did give me a good laugh the other day though. She was searching the 'net for a complete cornice that could be mounted at the top of our house along the front. I had to explain to her that one makes a cornice, one does not buy it at a store. ;-).
Anyway, same as everyone else here. Tell the guy to call around and get back to you when he wants a pro and not a slaveship oarsman.
Doing a favor for a friend is one thing. But charity begins at home . . . my favorite charity is my local bank account. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Look up entrepenuer in the dictionary. It is some one who assumes the risk of business.
You stuck your neck out there going into business, now you have an obligation to the business. Your business needs to make money not only to grow but to stay alive.
what your friend is proposing is that you shut down your business for a day and work for something equal to his salary, in other words the salary of some one who is not in business
You work FOR the business. the business will never survive if you dont change your attitude and you'll find yourself back in the ranks with your friend
Thats just what I cant get this guy to grasp. If I pull in $200 for the day, i'm lucky to see half of it. He thinks because its a "weekend job" there is no overhead.
Sometimes I wonder who the sane people are, sometimes I think i'm nuts running a business, but I wouldnt have it any other way.
you just be busy next time and say but for $xxxx I might no be so busy
Tell him you woundn't get out of bed for $200.
Pretty much did, although with a little more tact. I just put in the pull down stair and got my price and lunch. :>)
Glad I said something, hes not a bad guy most of the time just a little quirky.