Edit: I’d really like to work for myself one day. I only seem hesitant in the thread title because I’m not sure what approach to take.
I work as project manager for a small kitchen and bath remodeling company. My bosses do sales/design, and we have a subcontractor who works for us exclusively. I set the schedule, co-ordinate with other subs (electrical, flooring and what-not), and schlep a lot of materials around.
I’d much prefer to work for myself one day, but you know, it’s tough to what kind of direction to take. I could aspire to a whole design/build outfit like our organization, but it’s a lot to bite off at once! My bosses rent a unit, maintain a showroom, and so on. That’s a lot of overhead and initial investment – talk about sink or swim. And everyone cries about finding skilled people to do the work. It seems very daunting.
I’d could be comfortable taking the “pick-up truck” approach: doing the work myself and seeing what comes of it, eventually hiring people and hopefully building an organization. Unfortunately, I’ve seen too many of these guys run ragged bidding on jobs and running a business on top of the actual tool-belt work, so to speak. If they had any dreams of offices, receptionists, and design staff: well, it ain’t happening. And again, skilled people for a crew are hard to find.
Thoughts? Do you have a successful renovations business? What route did you take? How do you handle the “design” and “build” portions of what you do?
Edited 8/21/2007 9:29 pm ET by Biff_Loman
Replies
Hi Bill,
I have worked for others in the business, worked for the local building dept and now once again working for myself. On the good days, there is NOTHING like working for yourself. However; in these times it gets a bot tough...at least for me.
I have a commercial and residential license and do everything from small jobs to building homes to out of state consulting. Even been on national TV a few times. So its definitely fun and exciting but...
The aspect of not knowing that you will receive a paycheck every payday like you might when working for someone else is also something to consider.
And above all, remember you will put in more hours on your own than you ever would for someone else. Some guys who are probably more efficient than I or can let go easier than I on nights and weekends might disagree but right now, even when its slow (slow meaning I don't bring in as much money but still work as hard) I am putting in 60 hour work weeks. Between swinging a hammer, doing the paerwork, estimating, paying bills, attending meetings to network, etc...it takes alot of time.
You'll get differing opionions across the board but right now working for someone for about $50k from 9-5, M-F is looking VERY good to me...
See my "Hows business?" thread.
Don't mean to be Mr. Negative as I know some guys can speak to the better parts of self-employment but this is where I have been for a while now.
Mike
Biff,
I've been thinking about you since your threads several weeks ago.
At nearly 50 years old, I have in the past few years gone from being self employed, to employed as a carpenter, to employed as a PM.
Oye! The steady paycheck is really nice. The endless promoting of my services and the seemingly having to grovel for work is over, and I am way happy about that.
My current position is full of it's own stress, including LOTS of personalities. The boss, the admin. assistant, the designer, the subs, 6 or 7 clients or so at a time and the help as well.
I'm beginning to believe that I enjoyed just doing the production end of it more than what I am doing now, but I found that there was a lack of mental stimulation in just doing production. Plus, my body is beginning to revolt against the physical work.
You seem to be young, and full of piss and vinegar as my mom would say.
Do some deep searching in here and look for Mike Smith's and Sonny Lykos' posts. It will take some time to do a good and thorough search but it will be well worth your effort.
Those two are not the only ones with useful advice to offer. I have probably learned more here in the past five years or so than I did for ten or more before I came here.
In fact, learning what I did here was a great impetus for me going to being employed as opposed to working for myself. i realized that I was not good at the business end of it by myself.
Stay in touch, there is a great wealth of information and ideas here if you only ask.
Eric[email protected]
Your thread title says "kinda wanna work for myself". That's absolutely the wrong attitude to have. Either you DO want to work for yourself and you'll do whatever it takes to be successful, or else you DON'T want to tough it out through enormous hurdles for a year or so. There's no middle ground.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I'm more serious than the thread title would suggest.
May I suggest a new thread title:"I REALLY wanna work for myself on day soon"
All right all right - I added a note to the OP.
Read the fourth post.
Responded to ORM instaed of you.
[email protected]
It aint for everybody. You can work a half day when you want to. You can even pick the 12 hours you work too.
I wish at time I had worked for someone else just so i'd know...
@46 the last job i had where someone was my boss and paid me i was 13 remodel'n hotel rooms for $1.90 an hr... big money to me at the time
I have zero management skills... I try to let others who work for me actully work... but way too often it's just easier to... do it myself... not the most productive way but... prob a big reason i only work on my jobs, my designs, my materials, my butt ... but many it equals my profit...
i can't remember a day that i got up and said... "dang... i have to go to work..."
i do say... "cool i get to go to work" no one i know has more fun than i do...
yes there are days that suck... those days usually involve someone who has the power to screw me... inspector, bank, planning depts... ect...
If i was you... pretty sure i'd start by doing a few side jobs... keep great records of time, materials & supplies spent doing every aspect of each...
I believe anyone who works hard can make their own job...and even make a nice living... thats "working for yourself"
what you really want to do is "have your own business" thats when others and the business works for you to provide you with a good living... not at all the same thing as working for yourself...
coal mine vs gold mine theory... both alot of work... one keeps you dirty fed & tired... one keeps you eating, thinking and planning
good luck
p
Biff-
There's another side to this.
Check out the Homeowners from Hades thread.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
First question to ask yourself: Will you be able (both in skills and inclination) to do the paperwork?
Biff,
Most of what has been said is dead on and in one form or another the way it has been for me the last 25 years or so .
I have run a small custom production cabinet and furniture shop and made a living , the working half days as Larry spoke of is mostly true , any 12 hours you choose should do it .
My best advice to you is check the local market , is there room for more of the same type contractor or business you are thinking about ?
If I had it to do over again I would have specialized probably in stair building and stuff more like that . Normally the few real stair guy's within the area are booked way ahead , and can charge the price they deserve because the pool of qualified bidders is so small . They aren't low balling each other on purpose , sort of like electricians or plumbers around here don't cut low price bids .'
For some reason people shop cabinet makers to death at times , if the price is more important then the quality I usually don't work for those folks.
regards dusty
Heres some advice if you want it, I have found to be in biz you need all different skills , But you dont have to be 100 percent in ALL of them, You need to be a good craftsman, Bookkeeper, people person, employer, helper, timekeeper/ manager, etc..... Reach 70 percent in All of these you have a good chance, any one you fail in will bring the whole house down, When i started i was a very good carpenter but had not a clue in the other biz skills and the worst thing is unless you have a mentor theres hardly any way of learning except the school of hard knocks.
I suspect the two hardest parts of running your own business for folks here are the paperwork and the sales. Both will tend to get put off, and your business will then slide into the abyss.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Biff, what is it you want to do?
Kitchen & bath like now or something else.
I knew a guy in California who did shower doors and enclosuers (enclosers) How do I spell that?
Anyway, he had about 900 sq' of warehouse with a tiny office showroom in front.
He kept busy and made money with almost no overhead.
Joe H
Start small.
Be conservative, don't buy tools just because you want one. Only take on jobs that you know you can manage.
Keep your overhead low.
Read read read on starting your own business.
Learn about paying yourself a salary, and after business expenses any profit should be dumped back into a business account to help things grow.
DanH said it, learn the paperwork, learn how to do your taxes, most likely you'll pay quarterly estimated taxes.
Big one here...wanna make money?!! Learn how to hire and manage sub contractors. Let them do the work. You make more money pushing a pencil than swinging a hammer, it's just a question of if you want to that.
Above all, do good work. Don't skimp. Even if you lose money at first. Word of mouth is the best advertisement there is.
Do not guesstimate as an estimate. Learn to break it down and throw in a big slush factor.
A very rich man by the name of Getty said he would rather get the effort of 1% of a 100 men than 100% of the effort of himself. And he said all that helped will be rewarded.
Mr Getty made a lot of people very wealthy.
I reckon that old boy knew what he was talkin' about.
When you do business like that there comes a BIG risk. But big risks can bring big results. I did not take big risks when I was in business. So I just made a living. To make lots of money you have to hire a lot of people and keep them very busy.
" don't buy tools just because you want one "
Damn, I break that rule all the time. Its one of the reasons I'm in business for myself. <G>
I forgot to add..."Do as I say, not as I do"I'm on a chisel kick these days.
I've got a bunch of old ones I'm restoring a little at a time, including several Witherbys.
But I really want the Lie-Nielsons.
Do you think having 5 sets of chisels is too many?
"Do you think having 5 sets of chisels is too many?"Hell no, not if you're in my head.I'm curious to see how a good Japanese chisel works. The good white steel ones go for a really high price and it's piqued my interest.For the old ones I have have several Witherbys probably 6, about 4 Winchesters, 2 huge Douglass, an old Spiers (the Scottish plane makers made chisels too I found out), and some Sorbys. Most of them are either long paring or registered types, there are some 1/8 and 1/4" long sash that are nice. The 1 1/2" Winchester is a butt. I too am slowly restoring all of these, sort of like my plane collection. I've got to turn new handles for some of the sockets. For my day to day I have a full set (6) of the regular Stanleys that have been with me for at least 2 decades, the 3/4" has been ground down to a 1" shank. Stubby little thing but it still hones up fine and I refuse to give it up.
My second day to day is a little better and they are 6 Marples beveled with the wooden handles. They are sweet.
I read an article not too long ago by Franz Klauss in American Woodworker and he rated the Irwin Blue Chips the best for the inexpensive day to day. I'm tempted.The latest one I got was an old Sorby mortise 'pig sticker' type 1/2". This thing is thick as your forearm. It was used for barn post & beam I'm sure. Don't know if I'll ever use it but God it is a thing of beauty.I've been curious about the LN chisels myself, but it's a lot of $$, plus I get carried away with acquiring the oldies. It's cheaper than collecting planes anymore. I want to get a boatbuilders slick to display.
I hope to be morticing some sash today ( if it ever cools off enough, 80 in my shop at 0700!, only to get worse) and I'll snap a pic of some of oldy but goodies..and some home made special ones I needed from Organ building and Lutherie...I made a 1mm chisel for making what resembled a biscut slot in 4mm hornbeam "square" an L shaped rocker that transmits horizontal action to Verticle action from the foot pedals to the roller board.
Sometimes ya just gotta make what ya need.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Oh yeah, a slick- that's one of the tools that I don't really have use for, but will end up buying some day.
If you want to try out some Japanese chisels, I have a set I bought from Mahogany Masterpieces years ago. They're blue steel Oucchi bench chisels. They take and hold an edge real well, but they seem a bit small for my big paws.
Give me a ring some time if you want to play with them.
The absolute hardest part for me was deciding if I would specialize in something, or be "well rounded" out in a variety of trades.
The woodworking is in my blood, but I also like to do a zillion other things..Copper, slate roofing as an example.
Being unable to commit to just one vocation, I smushed it all together ( hence my Co.'s "Enterprises" ending). This to me, allows me the freedom to have my cake and eat it too, I don't limit my involvement to just one thing, which may bore me to tears eventually.
BUT, the downside is, I am not labled as a Handy man, or a roofer, or a woodworker, or a Luthier, or anything...so when some one asks " what do you do", I find it easier to tell them what I DON'T do..LOL..I hate Concrete and Sheetrock..see my point?
At this time, I am able to blend some woodworking passion, with other trades..repairing Cornice that a painter had stripped and found rotted..I fix, he comes back and paints.
Really think about specialization or not, many hats means many tools, many tools sitting Idle means many $ not turning over for you,,and every headache has it's own hat.
Good luck.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
every headache has it's own hat.That one's going in my "Quote" bag. Thanks.SamT
The pleasure was mine..LOL
I wish it weren't so damm true.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"