Yesterday, I get a phone call from a women who states that a tree fell onto her wraparound porch, and she would like an estimate for replacement. She also states that she would like 2 estimates, one for mahogany flooring, and one for PT. I told her, that I would be happy to meet with her and ask her how she got me name. She says that she is going through the phone book. Anyway, I call her today, to make an appointment with her and while we are chatting, I ask her if she needs a “ball park” price, or a written quote for her insurance company. She states that she needs a written proposal for her insurance company. I kindly tell her, that thats fine, but there is a $200.00 charge for the estimate since it is insurance work. I also state that If she uses me that I’ll take that money off of the price of the porch. I also explain myself further stating that the reason that I charge for these types of estimates is because 50% of the time, I never hear from the client again, and that my estimates are done on a computer with professional letterhead, and very detailed. After I explain myself, she yells “are you kidding me” and proceeds to say that there are a million people that she can call and she hangs up on me. Now, my wife thinks that I am crazy for charging for insurance extimates, but at least this way I’m not wasting my time!
Thanks for listening
Millsie in Easton
Replies
Don`t loose any sweat chock one up for yourself its a sure fire way to be rid of tire kickers
"because 50% of the time, I never hear from the client again"
I think maybe you could have been a little more tactful with that statement. If you said it to me that way, I might feel like you are assuming I was using you, and may be insulted. As far as charging goes, you gotta do what you gotta do.
Hey, you asked, but what do I know anyway.
"Oh, this is the worst-looking hat I ever saw. What, when you buy a hat like this I bet you get a free bowl of soup, huh? Oh, it looks good on you though."
You did good! Your first clue that this was a "dead ender" was her saying she got your name by going through the phone book,(yours and 50 others).
You have to qualify a client by either:
1. They saw your work at so and so's
2. There friends, Mr & Ms So & So talked well of you
3. They're repeat clients
Even at $200 for the insurance estimate it's hardly worth the bother.
millsie
a. She found you by going down a list of names in the phone book.
b. It's for an insurance quote
c. YOU JUST SAVED YOURSELF A BUNCH OF "FREE" TIME!! (free to the caller anyway ;) )
I will agree that you might have said something along the lines of "While we understand many people need an estimate for their insurance company, it has worked best for our business, in these circumstances, to charge a small fee for a written quote that we are happy to credit back to you if we are hired for the project...blah, blah, blah...."
d. Still....YOU JUST SAVED YOURSELF A BUNCH OF TIME (and time is money, right?)
You did good!!!
Jay
Don't think twice about it. Maybe your weren't as tactful as you could have been, but I still think you did good. You're 100% correct in assuming that there is a very good chance that you won't ever see this job to completion. So why give away what may very well be the only service you provide for this woman?
tact is over rated.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
but tacky is very becommingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
it's the new look of the season.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
give them a quote like $122.45. a real low quote and then refuse the job, you too busy.. 2+3=7
Best one yet!
As others have said....you did the right thing.
Me thinks she did protest too much.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Don't lose any sleep over that one.
If she didn't want to fork over $200 o for a job that will run into the thousands, she's not a customer you want.
Is that Easton,Pa. you're at? You should fill out your profile.
You did good. Like one of the other replies stated, unless you know them, or they have been referred to you by someone, or have seen your work someplace, charge for an insurance estimate. Most of the time the first thing and Agent says is "get a couple of estimtes". Guess who does all the free estimating for the Insurance Agent? You and me.
I wouldn't usually contribute a comment to this type of post (since I'm a DIYer) but since I'm also a homeowner - my first thought was that $200 sounded like alot for a quote for a porch repair. Though I do agree w/ others that in this case, you saved yourself a bunch of time by the sound of it.
PJ
$200 does sound like a lot if it's never replaced, but he said he would knock the fee off if he does the work. That way, it really doesn't sound bad. She may have wanted the insurance check and pocket it, never planning to have it replaced, too. And it was probably there when she bought the house.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"my first thought was that $200 sounded like alot for a quote for a porch repair."
Well, I'm a DIYer these days, and $200 sounds like a deal to me to do this type of repair quote. What DIYers don't typically understand/take into account:
1) How tough it is to put together an accurate quote. You have to be a mix of contractor, accountant and clairvoyant all at the same time to figure out what needs to be done, how long it will take, what materials you will need, how much they will cost, etc. This is especially true if it's for an insurance job that needs a detailed quote as opposed to a seat-of-the-pants estimate. (What makes people think they are entitled to 3 or 4 hours of your time, experience and skill for free just because they neglected to get their tree trimmed before it took out their porch roof?)
2) Once it's in writing, your butt's on the line. Didn't notice that joist was cracked and you'll have to jack the structure up to replace it? Tough. It's not in the quote so it's on your ticket. There is definitely financial risk involved once you've provided a quote, and for me, risk is worth a few sheckles up front.
As a homeowner who's been there, I find your position entirely reasonable, especially if the bid price is later deducted from the work which results in no extra cost to me when the work is done. And, based on your description of the response you got (which I understand to have been more of a rant than a polite refusal of your offer), you most likely would have regretted signing on for this job anyway!
Hey, Happy St. Patrick's Day!
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike, you are misunderstanding the document.
I send non binding letters of intent...basically useless estimates. I don't offer a firm proposal until I know I am the contractor of choice.
I use a variety of methods to inform the client that we are the right choice, no matter what the other estimates say.
Every job I sold, I was the high estimate, yet I got the job.
blue
You explained to this tire kicker that if she used you that she would get that $200 of the bill, what's her big deal then? Not like you called her for work anyway, you did the right thing.
Maybe she could've handled herself better yelling at someone before you even pulled in the driveway is a little bit sh!tty in my book. Imagine what it would've been like actually working for this hag.
Yes there are a million other people out there doing this work hope you find one that doesn't screw you either, like a game of russian roulette calling contractors out of the phone book. Your business name probably isn't AAA Construction either how many other people did she get to call and hang up on before you?
She'll probably hire someone that gives her the cheapest bid and takes four months to do a two day job, give her an estimate witten on a Zig-Zag, and at no additional cost a tail light warranty.
You're entitled to sh!t.---Tony Soprano
estimate on a zig-zag? what a great line! Your the next Tony Soprano"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
She'll probably hire someone that gives her the cheapest bid
Not only that, she wants an estimate for 5/4 mahogany to give to the insurance co, and will then insist on the PT decking, at a discount, to "pay" for the deductible.
Nah, won't be any problems with that client, nope, nosireee . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Ruling # 031606b
You were professional, the old bag should just call HD, and your wife needs to learn to do the estimates so she can chane her tune
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I agree with everyone else. But there are a couple of issues. If you are busy and you don't want to deal with insurance jobs, etc. I would have simply declined and said to her "look, we're scheduled into July, maybe next time you need work done, etc". Not worth the $200 for the hassle.
On the other hand, if you need work, remember that somebody is going to do that work and it may be worth a try. I would not say anything on the phone and go look at it. Once you have a chance to impress her in person, act knowledgeable, show references, etc. you can ask some questions and get a feel for your chances of getting the job. Then I would ask for the proposal fee only if I thought the chances are less than 50%.
The key part is that in an insurance situation, there is no incentive for the HO to go with the lowest bid. So 50 names from the phone book doesn't mean squat. The HO wants the best job and is not footing the bill. If you feel you can out-sell the other 49 and are priced within reason, go for it. If not, don't.
DG/Builder
Could be more tactful, I suppose, but only if you might want the work. I don't blame you, however; I also decline insurance quotes. I've found people take your quote, and every other quote they have conjured up, give the most expensive ones to the Insurance co., take the check and party down, dude.
So, no, no more partying as a benefit from my labor.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
It is not the pricing of the job that takes the time it's finding out what the client wants work out the details, do a quick drawing so you can work out material cost,
in the end you find out all you really did was design the persons deck give them an hour of free information, and the job does not come your way. Really $200.00 is cheap. I have to learn to ask more questions on the initial phone call . Then again if I have no work lined up for next week off I go and some how I've made a living since 1978.
George
I hate time-wasters that want us to invest all kinds of time and energy into their project without a penny in compensation. I'll do it for a serious customer that wants to use me, but needs to know how much. I'm very limited on the time and energy I'll give for free to tire-kickers.
"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
well here's the thing. I dont mind giving a free quote to someone that is a word of mouth referal, but gimme a break....from the phone book. PLEASE....my time is way worth more than that. This is my new policy, and I will charge for all insurance quotes.
Millsie
Pluggin away in Easton MA.
Charge $200 for the insurance quote , Tell the client that you will give them $300 off the bill when the job is in the books . Add $100 to the bill before presenting it to the client.
I had a shop I did work for that was months behind on paying . So on the next job I offered them a $20 discount if they paid in five days but I had added $40 to the bottom line . They paid promptly to get their discount and I got interest on all of the past due invoices.
I had a similar situation recently. I got a call from one of my ads, but when I got to the job (a large retail furniture chain), red flags started going up. The manager was rude and inconsiderate, and told me he wanted my bid, but when I asked about payment upon completion, he let me know it wasn't his responsibiity, and he really didn't care.
So I gave them a price, which was high enough I could feel comfortable about it without spending a lot of time arriving at the number. I told them it was only an estimate. But that if they wanted a written bid it would be for the same amount, but they'd have to pay $200 (refundable if I got the job) for it. As well as some other specific stipulations about partial payments and final payment immediately upon completion. Haven't heard from them since, and don't want to."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
to all of you that think $200 is a lot for an insurance repair estimate.
you obviously have never done one.
and have no idea the detail that is required by the insurance companies both in scope and in pricing.
i can assure you that $200 will not cover this person's time driving to the home, meeting with the individual, gathering pricing from suppliers and subcontractors, and providing a detailed typewritten quote which satisfies the insurance company.
if your standard proposal reads like this:
Fix Porch $8732.54
i guarantee this will end up in the adjuster's shredder with a snicker.
as a result, the next time one of you lose the front of your home to a fallen tree or a speeding truck, i recommend you don't bother us and you simply let your adjuster write you a check for an amount they determine.
and then you'll find out whether the $200 would have been worth it.
carpenter in transition
Tim, how come you start a post, asking a reasonable question and 28 posts later, everyone agrees with what you did...
and I DON'T AGREE!
Why does this keep happening to me?!!!
One of the first things that entered my mind was DonK's question: if you don't want people contacting you through the yellow pages, why are you advertising there?!!!
Anyways, I happen to LOVE INSURANCE REPAIRS, providing that I'm in the retail/remodeling arena (I'm not).
When did Doctors and Dentist start getting wealthy? When the insurance started paying the bills. Why? Because it's not personal money being spent....it's insurance dollars!
So, how would I take that call?
"Yes Mrs Jones, we do insurance repairs. In fact, we would be pleased and honored to assist you in filing and collecting on your claim. We also happen to be highly skilled in the business of securing property, abating dangerous conditions, demoing damaged buildings, helping to re-design and rebuild and will advocate for you in your efforts to collect a fair and equitable claim from your insurance carrier.....is that something you might be interested in?"
Now, when I gave her that 30 second commercial, and asked that openended question, I'd shut up and listen. I'd be waiting to hear what her real deal is. I'd engage her and look for ways to make her understand that she probably will need a friend and a professional contractor to help her get the maximum benefits due her from the insurance carrier. I'd look for opportunities to explain to her that when the accident occurs, the insurer has only one legal duty....to write a check. I'd tip her off to the fact that the adjuster will try to get her to settle for pennies on the dollar and try to steer her toward the cheapest contractor available to him, and also let her know that if she goes that route that she will be getting what she pays for and that cheap isn't always the best value. I'd ask her another question: "Do you think Bill Gates allows the insurance carrier to dictate to him that he has to send in the cheapest contractor that shows up with a rusty truck?" After I get her to understand that it will be me and her against her insurance carrier to get her porch replaced as good as new, I set the appointment.
After about a two minute conversation along those lines, I'd have a pretty good feel for what kind of a client she really is. If she already has made a decision on which contractor she is going to use (a relative ) and she needs me for the mandatory three estimates, I might offer to send a proposal based on the other contractor's proposal of I might just pass. If she hasn't made a decision, I'll head over there fast. When I get there, if all goes well, we might just end up tossing the first proposal out and use a couple of buddies of mine as alternate proposals. Or we might just let the ones she got go through if they are professional and high enough.
I spent a fall/winter selling for a high school acquaintence. He owned a window and door replacement showroom on a busy corner. I chased a half dozen or dozen insurance leads and had a very high closing rate and had the highest profit rate of any sales that winter. Yes, I always got the astonished call from the insurance agent/adjuster, but I always held my ground and told him that we were a professional remodeling firm, not a guy with a rusty pickup and then I always had to send him a detailed explanation. In the conversation I would mention something like "Mrs Jones has some very expensive looking artwork in her foyer....just moving and securing those items alone will take some time and I don't think I'm going to trust that job to a couple of hungover high school kids." Basically, I would put the fear of all the bad contractors that we all know are out there into the adjuster's head and then I would start typing and within 1/2 hour I'd have two or three pages of excruciatingly detailed itemized worklist which basically did the job from start to finish but included no times and no money. There would be thiry entries for a simple ceiling patch! Things like
I happen to love insurance leads and if I was focused on doing remodeling, I'd be actively searching for them.
In all my days working with my buddy, these insurace deals were the only true fun I had! I did one that I estimated would need less than 1/2 day labor and $20 of materials (if done right) and billed for over $1500! My commission alone on that one was close to $400 and of course the guys didn't do it right, or I'd have made more (we had a weird compensation system).
Tim, your wife is right about this one. People that have experienced a problem, need someone with solutions. You missed a golden opportunity.
blue
You missed a golden opportunity
Blue, in my opinion the insurance industry has deteriorated quite a bit since the day. Once upon a time I ran the field operations for a company that did nothing but insurance work, and it was very lucrative. Anymore, since the standardized computerized breakdowns, they don't pay like they used to, they're far more inflexible on payouts, and they've always been slow to pay.
Just my two cents, but I think the HO missed a golden opportunity. If I was them, I would have asked if he made all his customers pay for a bid. When he said Not the ones who I know are gonna use my services, I'd say OK - come on over and tell me what you got the others don't, 'cause if you're as good as all that, you just might be the guy I want to do my job! "he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Huck, even if the insurance companys have "deteriorated", the offer isn't being presented to them. You are still selling a client who has a problem
Lets discuss the possibility that I need ten thousand dollars to repair that porch and the insurance only wants to pay 8 thousand. Do I have to cave in and do it for 8? No!
My experience is that you will find that there are two kinds of clients: those that care about their houses and will be very impressed to have a quality professional contractor on their side working to get a fair amount, or those that don't care and will accept a lower standard. Often, that means accepting different colored siding that doesnt match, lower quality products, just to make the budget, etc. Most contractors shy away from standing up to the adjusters and therefore they aren't really a competitor when you walk into the right situation.
I had excellent results working with the adjusters. In fact, after winning a negotiation with an adjuster on a double insurance deal (two separate claims in one house), I ended up on his referral list! Why do you think he referred us? Because he knew he could trust us to do a professional job!
Look at the numbers in here. Most of the contractors will run, sprint, take a jet to get away from insurance work. That proves that it is a perfect niche market for a small time contractor. The perfect situation to reap very high profits. It just takes a different mindset. I see and hear the objections in here from others and I can see that they are looking at it from the wrong perspective.
blue
blue
you just described in perfectly clear detail what i do every single day. to the letter.
i operate just as you describe, client pitches, working with adjusters, day in day out.
mentioning the fee for an estimate is a last resort at the end of the pitch.
it is used only after listening to the customer's responses to the questions " are you familiar with us and do you want to hire us ?" and they say " i dunno, i was thinking of having my brother do the work, but he's pretty busy."
now it's time to mention the fee.
and recommend that the brother write the estimate.
we're on the same page. millsie may or may not have missed an opportunity on this one, but he needs to change his pitch.
you need to get to bed earlier because you're sending yours posts to the wrong guy.
carpenter in transition
I did a perk test about ten years ago and the property change hands couple time. then about five years ago, they wanted a permit application, then system design, then it change hands again, new owner wanted the system design modified. This has been ten years without construction and no money being paid. ten years is a limit on perk test. so couple more weeks and new perk test be required. So Itold the new owner the new modfication be about $200, mainly paperwork. She blew up, could not believe how we could charge. Now the orignal perk test was seven owners ago.. 2+3=7
>>"This has been ten years without construction and no money being paid."
bb, my $.02 a perc test and system design for permitting and no $$$ to you!? You are talking about a boatload of actual work for the HO. That goes far beyond an estimate. You got to charge for that.
I once had a place in the burbs with on-lot septic. When I bought the place I had the bank cut a separate check out of the loan proceeds directly to my septic guy as a retainer against which he would bill all site work (bank insisted 'cause the seller givebacks on the deal already maxed out at what is legal) . His job was to get me a permit for a new on-lot system. Obtained the permit and then I sold the place with approved permit. I think the system was a little complicated because of a lot of ledge and clay, but IIRC, the pricetag for the perc tests and system design through permit had 4 digits.
In your case, you've had a parade of owners who benefited from the fact that the lot was perc tested and have a system design. Why shouldn't you benefit from that also -- you did all the work.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Sorry Tim...you are right...I did post the reply to the wrong person! I'm glad I wasn't obnoxious! LOL!
I agree with your method. You obviously understand how to work these deals and they can be very lucrative.
The reason that they are so lucrative is because the bulk of the contract is picked up by the carrier. If it's a 10k job and you offer an upgrade package, you might end up doing a very profitable 12k job and the client only has to take 2k out of pocket. I've had some completly hire me to do different things and just sign off on the claim. The important thing is that you are winning a lifetime client by wokring with them, not against them.
Probably most of the largest remodelers in the Detroit area specialise in insurance repairs.
blue
Blue, your methods sound semi-fraudulent if not unethical. Charging $1500 for 1/2 days labor and $20 in material to a insurance company only drives up already high rates for everyone. Remember, we all pay for it in the end, and only some of us reap the benefits of an ignorant adjuster. Also, if I were the homeowner and had a bid in hand for $500 and you got paid $1500 for the same job by my insurer you better believe I'm not calling you for my next project when the insurance company isn't footing the bill!!
your methods sound semi-fraudulent if not unethical. Charging $1500 for 1/2 days labor and $20 in material to a insurance company only drives up already high rates for everyone.
Wow, if that's the case, you just wiped 90% of the entire legal profession!"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Hey, c'mon man.... your making Blue sound like he's a plumber or something.
;)View Image
The "proper" amount of labor cost depends entirely on the skill level of and the overhead structure over the person doing the work. Law firms will rack up those kinds of fees in a heartbeat, and with lower material costs to boot. On the other hand, if a 1/2 day, $1500 job is done by a $400/day laborer and therefore has enough $$$ left over to give the seller a 25% commission (!!!) then things do look out of whack. But, I still think that we know too little about the jobs blue described to know whether the insurance company was ripped off or not. For example, it could have been a 1/2 day job that required 3 days of preparation off-site.
No Constantin, it was a half day total work, that would take a guy three trips to do it. Additionally, there was some expensive wallpaper boarders that were in jeapordy if the installers didn't know how to get the job done efficently. I chose to include the replacement of the entire wallpaper boarders in the base bid just to cover myself. If the laborers spent an hour more being careful, we would save the boarders.
When I conceived the proposal, I included three minimum trip charges of $250 each. It's my business and I can choose to have a 1/2 minimum trip charge or I can decide to go there for ten minutes doing a simple drywall coat and only charge ten minutes. I chose the 1/2 day trip charge. I could insist on a full day trip charge...it's my business.
We gotta make money somewhere!!!!!
blue
Thanks for filling in some of the info. Though, to be fair, your earlier post said something about $20 in materials, not an entire border's worth of expensive wallpaper.Like I said, there probably was a a good reason for your bid to be as high as it was. The insurance accepted, the homeowner is happy, so be it.
That border was iffy. If I had done the job, I wouldn't have needed it but when you're out there selling, you can't dictate to the tradesman. So, I have to build in some safety costs.
In that situation, they ruined the boarder! They lacked the imagination and expertise to avoid it.
blue
Blue, not at all trying to slander you, sorry if I came across that way. After hearing a more detailed description of the added risk you took on your bid makes much more sense. In your first account there was no mention of any risk, it sounded like a slam dunk. That being said, you are very smart to include room for unknowns because if you take the risk then you should get the reward.
For the record I'm definetely a Wal Mart guy (making every effort to get Niemen Marcus wages)
Blue, not at all trying to slander you, sorry if I came across that way. After hearing a more detailed description of the added risk you took on your bid makes much more sense. In your first account there was no mention of any risk, it sounded like a slam dunk. That being said, you are very smart to include room for unknowns because if you take the risk then you should get the reward.
The biggest fear I had was our own installers, which I didn't have much faith in. My instincts were right...they would screw up this lucrative deal and make it only a semi lucrative deal. If you work alone, you don't have that risk.
There really isn't any different risk doing the repairs than on any normal remod job. When I send in the "estimate", it is a non binding estimate. If they call me and tell me that I have the job, I could still theoretically say no. But, if I've bid it as high as I'm telling you I did, I'm going to be thrilled to run out there with a proposal and get someones John Hancock!
All I'm trying to say is that insurance deals should be the bread and butter of small carpenter remodelers. Unfortunatly, they let their attitude regarding them sour because some old lady doesn't mind her manner when shes out shopping for the mandatory three bids. Forget about the bad ones and concentrate on the good ones!
blue
>>"methods sound semi-fraudulent if not unethical"
Not sure if U r trolling 'cause you got 2 posts and no profile info., but anyway
The words you used are pretty strong. This isn't cost based bidding where hiding costs is a no-no. Blue gave a bid which the ins. co. was free to accept or reject. What you will likely learn soon, what a job actually costs doesn't necessarily have much to do with what you charge.
I also doubt the adjuster was a cherub. Ins. co's. have acess to the best cost data around.
Have you ever bid a higher price 'cause you were busy and didn't really need or even want the job. Sometimes people accept that high bid and then pay you that premium to have you shuffle your schedule. Nothing wrong with that. It's called free market economy.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
left .... are you alright ?.....
do you shop at WalMart or Neiman -Marcus ?
no one holds a gun to a customer's head, and there is no fraud involved.. we are all free to charge whatever we want..
some are too scared to charge what it takes to make a living wage in the end..
others are doing alright, thank you
as for ripping off insurance companies, blue was not advocating that. dealing with insurance companies is an acquired skill.. like drinking scotch is an acquired taste..
i approach insurance work in the same manner as blue.... it's me and my customer trying to get the project made whole again..who do i represent, the insurance company, or my customer ?
now , if you are saying the customer is attempting fraud, then i want no part of it.. and i will not play that gameMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i approach insurance work in the same manner as blue.... it's me and my customer trying to get the project made whole again..who do i represent, the insurance company, or my customer ?
Mike, you said it right! That is exactly the point.
I team up with the homeowner to get them made whole again. The costcutters are trying to land the job and will try to foist a substandard package on the homeowner. I warn the homeonwers about that and promise to deliver the highest level of workmanship, while working around their business or home life schedule. I also promise to do everything in my power to expedite the job and keep the premises clean at all times.
Basically, I'm pulling out all the stops and treating them like royalty. Some of these people have never had that type of treatment (if you're in a blue collor neighborhood) and it's such a refreshing change for them, they start refferring you all over the place and bragging like they hit the jackpot.
I loved doing the insurance deals, especially since I didn't have to do anything except sign the papers!
I did a couple commercial claims. They were just as good or better. They went nothing like Huck's story.
blue
For the record, I've had some good insurance experiences. One recent job I bid to the cable company who did the damage on a residential install - they submitted it to their ins., and the job went without a hitch. A little slow on pay, but that's a given. And the job I mentioned earlier in this thread was not an insurance job, as far as I know.
But I'm a little gun-shy of tire-kickers. Its a judgement call, since we don't really know who is sincere about hiring us. The last insurance job I bid, I spent some time explaining the repairs, meeting with sub's, etc. Finally find out that the insurance company arrived at their own figure, wrote the HO's a check, and said This is what it should cost so this is what we'll pay. HO's admitted, once I started questioning them, that it wasn't anywhere near my bid.
Not the HO's fault, but a waste of time nonetheless. I'm not blaming anyone, except maybe the insurance carrier who oughtta come fix it themselves if they're gonna set the bid amount themselves, but I get so many of these time-wasters that I've really tried to minimize the time I spend on bids and proposals if I have even a hint of insincerity. With a small one-man operation like mine, these tire-kickers are a genuine drain on the company. "he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
But I'm a little gun-shy of tire-kickers. Its a judgement call, since we don't really know who is sincere about hiring us. The last insurance job I bid, I spent some time explaining the repairs, meeting with sub's, etc. Finally find out that the insurance company arrived at their own figure, wrote the HO's a check, and said This is what it should cost so this is what we'll pay. HO's admitted, once I started questioning them, that it wasn't anywhere near my bid
Huck, I see where you screwed up now.
You shouldn't spend any time with subs doing an insurance estimate.
If you look at a job and it looks like the plumber might have to be there and you think it might be $5000, you put it in for $10000. Same with every trade.
When your wildly guessed estimate gets some serious consideration (that means that the adjuster thinks he is going to have to deal with you), then you offer to tighten up the estimate by bringing in subs. you don't have to do that free though. Now your into a different phase of the "estimating".
The original round is nothing more than a W.A.G and well padded. Your goal is to get the homeowner to partner up with you and allow you to fight for them to get the fair amount, not what the adjuster wants to send.
I can sense that most of the guys in here are going about it all wrong. Yes, there are a lot of tire kickers but since we all know that, why not send out crazy estimates and just play the numbers game. Give out 25 wildly profitable quotes and you'll be surprised at the closing rates if you do the right things. With the proper phone interviews, you can eliminate most of the clients by asking the right questions and determining their true motivation. If they just want paperwork, I can generate that from my desk and spend a whopping ten minutes and 37 cents to get them an "estimate".
If you want, I'll do one right here in this thread. Toss me a theoretical repair. I'll need to know the general value of the theoretical house.
blue
blue
OK, here's the one I referred to:
House value around 260k. Rain damage to 8' ceiling in the den. Roof and ceiling repairs needed.
Roof: 3/12 pitch, comp shingles over rock roof. Yes, some joker roofed right over the rock-and-tar roof with comp shingles. No visible leak in the roof, but somewhere above the damaged ceiling, or uphill from the damaged ceiling, there was a leak. Figure to replace about a square of roofing, and have then sign a waiver saying cannot guarantee comp shingles over rock, with low pitch to boot.
Ceiling: Old fashioned popcorn (the kind you can't find anymore if you wanted to match it - which I wouldn't even attempt anyway, on an insurance job). Damaged area about the size of one sheet of rock. Figure to take down the bad rock, replace any soggy insulation, new rock, scrape the lid (about 600 sq. ft.), re-texture and paint."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Huck, I'd mentally figure out what I really think I need to do the inside repair. The roof repair is separate from the insurance claim.
Lets say I knew I could sub this out to a decent crew and they'd charge me $1500. I'd put that figure in the back of my mind, then start desinging the job in my mind using the most expensive and lucrative methods and products possible.
I'd start with a mold inspection....$500
I'd think about a demo crew that specializes in mold abatement and contaminated material disposal.
I'd think about sealing the entire house and also cleansing it after the mold is gone.
I'd think about prepping the entire area for demo ...moving all furniture to a storage faciility.
I'd think about setting up seals to prevent dust from migrating.
I'd go on and on and on about how involved and blown up I can make this, then I'd submit an estimate for 4500 or 6500 or perhaps only 3500. It depends on the neighborhood and the client.
If I push the price up for the repair high enoug....using trip charges (I do the demo, then let the place dry out and air out before I check for moisture content) so that I would be able to "throw in the roof patch" free, but I would warn them that they also need to replace the entire roof. The insurer won't do another interior repair with that roof.
I'd then send in a simple letter: see attached.
The attached doc is very rough and rudimentary and I'd polish it before I sent it on my company letterhead. I would save it as a template and just change the names and a little of the wording each time I sent it.
This would take me less than ten minutes. In some cases, I could generate the estimate from my office (I've done it several times for acquaintenances). Its not fraud because I'd actually do most of the jobs if someone would pay me those wild and crazy rates. Of course, I'd do a site visit before offering a proposal. Notice that this is just an "estimate". It has no binding verbage but it satisfies the insurer and I have gotten many job approvals from a letter just like this. I then have to create a formal proposal and accemptance (a contract) to actually do the deal with the client.
If I can get the insurer to pay me enough, I can work out a deal with the homeowners to help them get whole and possibly do some re-roofing. Once the insurer agrees to the damage amount of the claim, the homeowner can do whatever they want with the cash....as long as they sign off on the amount. Remember, the insurer's only duty is to write a check.
Anyways Huck, that's how I did it and it works. The insurer was informed by the homeowner that they were going to have us do the work, no matter what the other estimates said because we were the most qualified. The adjuster would normally call me and ask for a detailed explanation after I verbally explained how I arrived at my obviously high estimate. I'd hear things like (your twice as high as my charts say you should be), I'd reply "we are a professional construction firm. We don't cut corners, we don't use unskilled labor and we don't put the homeowners at risk or leave anything for them to do. Our estimates are throrogh and fair and we don't really care what the other non-professionals are doing. We have our reputation to protect and we're only going to work one way...the right way.".
It's hard to argue with that logic. The detailed sheet takes a bit longer, but because I know we're in the drivers seat...it's worth my effort.
blue
THanks for that, I always learn from these conversations. As I recall, my bid was 3000, excluding the roofing. I think I figured 6 days @ 400 per day, plus 200 materials. I met with the roofer, but ended up excluding the roofing because it wasn't part of the insurance claim, and because I didn't want any liability. I told the roofer he could bid it direct to the homeowner. I think the ins. co. authorized something like 2200, as I recall. I told them I could not do it for that price. That was the last I heard from them."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Huck, the authorization for $2200 does not have to be the final amount. It's not unheard of for the insurance companies to offer a lower number than what they legally owe.
I never had to get involved in any battles with the adjusters, other than the second letter and a little bit of horsetrading. Perhaps my elaborate explanations did something to persuade the adjuster to see it our way.
blue
Slander!
There was no fraud involved, I ended up getting paid for what I know, not what I did. Doctors, Lawyers, Investors do it all the time.
LHH, why is it when a contractor finally makes a NORMAL profit, everyone sees it as obscene, just becuase there is some other carpenter, with no business skills bidding?
The $1500 job might have been overpriced by a hundred or two, but that might have just been the "extra" that I intended on giving up to land the jobs. Because I was a better negotiator and was willing to hold my ground instead of caving at the first request, I managed to do a little better than I thought.
Fraund would involve being in cahoots with the adjuster, which wasn't the case at all. I was in a competitive bid process and just flat out worked harder on the sales end.
I think you are also misunderstanding the entire insurance process. I'm thinking that because you seem to think that I signed some kind of contract with the insurer and got the job at the surprise of the homeowner. That isn't how it works.
Heres the deal with insurance work: A homeowner has a situation and is allowed to contract with ANYONE that they choose. The insurer pays for a claim. It might cover the contract amount, or it might come up short. If it comes up short, the homeowner can accept the claim, or fight it. In all my cases, there were no disputes so I obviously fell into the acceptable range of the insurance adjuster. Somehow, he was able to justify the amount based on my supplied information. If I had demanded a check for 1.5 million, it obviously would have been shorted and the homeowner and I would have to settle for something less than 1.5 million or I would have to sue him to collect.
There's no fraud but there is a lot of carpenters bidding 1/3 of what they should. I've been there, done that myself.
blue
This is the first time I've seen ####left handed insult driven in with a hammer. As one who has seen and heard of a basket full of times wjhere the ins co screwed the contractor, I say Hoo-ray when the contractors win one. My own score is: Ins Co - 1 / Piffin - 6
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I think what he was actually saying was that he knew how to write up the details of the job so that the "adjuster" could understand the amount of work involved and could see the reason for the amount needed.
I think maybe you jumped to an unfounded conclusion.
way to go...
think ya can get 250$ the next time?
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I think you did just right in the way you pick your clients, but the way you picked your wife, now that's quite a different matter.
So you didn't take the job, that's fine. Customer sounds a little tough to deal with.
But if you don't respect the fact that people use your name from the phone book, why do you pay to put an ad in it?
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Like someone once told me, "If you messed up, just say you're sorry and foget it. If you didn't mess up, just forget it"
You didn't mess up. Everybody knows time is money. You explained your position clearly. She's just looking for something for nothing, then probably have her nephew remuddle her front porch with your plans.
Some people are just jerks.
Your plan sounds very reasonable to me. No need to give away your time. Time is, afterall, the only real finite thing we have. No need to waste it.
If your wife does not agree, simply ask her to go along w/ you on the next "insurance quote".......after they waste a couple of hours of her time, she'll come around.
Maybe you could have given her a ballpark estimate, and then told her if that figure works, I charge $200.00 for a professionally written estimate credited back with a contract to build
New custom home client and no plans? We do design / build. I get an idea of what they want, give a non-commitital estimate, tell them I can guarantee a bid without plans and specs, and offer to design. Why would someone want to pay for a design for a 4500 SF home when they do not know princing, and ultimately can only afford a 3800 SF home?
That makes sense to me TX. That's a blue collar approach that works.
blue
bleu,
Yea, well I may be a custom builder but I have a blue collar background. You should have seen how dirty I was today, cutting my grass, playing on my tractor and skid loader on my property.
I used to work for an architectural firm that started with a 'B'. Which meant they got lots of phone calls from people shopping around for architectural services via the phone book. Many of which I met with. None of which ever amounted to squat.
I agree with the others. Your experience was a cloud with a big silver lining.
Although everyone here is supporting the estimate surcharge and I've discussed it with many I know in the field, I usually don't go that route. We aren't established enough for everyone to know us that well and therefore be able to sit by the phone and wait for qualified calls.
This reminds me of a customer we went to see once about a major remodel job. My partner ran over their mailbox by accident (obviously) when trying to park, a nightmare come true no doubt. It was winter and the ground was frozen solid. He had to chip into the ground with a chipping hammer, he had to work alone as I was tied up with other stuff. We had to buy a new post, then he wanted a new box and then he bitched about the height. He spent a week driving out there every frickin day after our other work to please this jerk.
I shredded his info and figured I'd never hear from him again.
Then he calls me about a month later, wants to know if we've worked up a number for him. OUtside the mailbox, the build had some issues that my partner didn't feel comfortable with at the time and we had labor shortages going on as well. With all that, I didn't bother.
I kind of expressed my surprise that he'd want us to work for him considering that he seemed rather displeased the mailbox debacle. He said he put that behind him. Well, I said, considering the issues of the build; that is was a major reno, that they wanted to live there while going on and other issues, we decided to forgo the bidding.
He went wild on me over the phone and screamed that my partner obviously is an idiot and doesn't know anything that a similar build is going on down the street, blah, blah. I said, well my partner has been in the business for over forty years and is pretty careful about how we approach a build and particular and we came to the conclusion that this wasn't something we should tackle at this time, very sorry and good luck.
I had to cut him short as he kept going on.
My guess is that he figured we would be the cheapest bidder and easiest to manipulate due to the mailbox thing. He never did his build, who knows why but the house stands unchanged and that was two years ago.
2 cents -ya did good. I've found that people that fly off the handle and are hard to deal with are better left too their own hell. If you yell at me it cost extra. By the way, my wife thinks I'm crazy for giving any free estimate period.
I might say - "We do a great job on this type of repair, so you can count on us. For insurance quotes, my policy is to charge for a comprehensive price quote. The cost is deducted from the total cost for the client...."
If the person yells - then you just saved yourself a headache from a 'screamer'. You were honest and did what you believe serves the client best. Usually works in my biz...
Don't sweat it, you'll never lose a dime on a job you didn't get.
50% you're lucky , It's more liike 10% .
Just remember, Time is money. Unless the person is your bread and butter client, nothing is free.
Factors in Quotes
1. Gas prices
2. Time
3. Lost time on jobs that pay
4. AGGRAVATION
Sounds like 200 to me.