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I LIKE FLORESCENTS BUT THEY TAKE A LONG TIME WARM UP IF THE BARN/SHOP GET REAL COLD. I HAVE INCANDESCANTS IN THE BARN AND A MIX IN THE SHOP BOTH UNHEATED.
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Blue,
Just make sure you don't use romex style house wiring in the barn between fixtures. This type of wiring absorbs moisture in the inner paper wrapping. Bad news a few years down the road in an four season climate. Dairy farmers in Wisconsin learned the hard way years ago. Use a good all weather rated wire. Are you stapling to the framing in the open or are you going to use conduit?
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Good idea, that beats pulling the meter and hooking up a couple of wires on the house side of the drop.
By the way, what would happen if I had the generator hooked up, the meter installed, and power was restored? Would it cook my generator, or would I cook Detroit Edison?
"Out of my mind. Back in five minutes."
*Thanks for the explanation regarding fixture and bulb quality! Of course I was going to buy the cheap ones! I'll be spending my bucks much wiser now!Blue
*Now you tell me! I've already ran a basic temporaroy lighting circuit that used nm b 2wire with ground. I read, and will comply, with the code that requires NM ?(i can't remember!) I couldn't figure out how the stuffwas going to rot, but now I know, thanks to you. It's the internal condensation on the wires, eh?Back to the drawing board!Blue"Rehab is for quitters."
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You can use NMC or UF. Article 336 & 339 (96 NEC)
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I thought it is 18" bare wire around here. I'll check with the local bldg inspector prior to making my decision.
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Adam,
You're right.
Six inches is for landscape lighting or irrigation circuits 30v or less. Or... read on.
NEC Table 300-5 Minimum Cover Requirements deals with this:
Direct burial - 24" down, under 2" of concrete you can be 18" down
Rigid or IMC - 6" down
Nonmetallic raceways listed for direct burial - 18"
For what he wants, which is a feeder, our inspectors like a 27" deep trench, 3" sand in bottom, feeder and 5" of sand topcover followed by backfill. We had 30 tons of sand in one dual feeder trench.
If you arrange to backfill before inspection - leave windows open at both ends and every 20' so he can check the trench work.
ToolBear
*Blue,"Practical Electrical Wiring" (16th Ed.) by Richter and Schwan has a section dealing with farm wiring. Good book on wiring. Check the McGraw-Hill website for this and other titles. The suggestion of having your service drop brought to a central pole (with yard light) and distributed from there is typical of farm wiring. They normally use overhead "messenger supported" wiring to the buildings.Since you have a backhoe, I suspect you will be wanting to go underground. Two feet, at least. I run 4/0 AU triplex for 200A panels. That has a pair of 4/0 conductors and a 2/0 ground. For the shop - figure up your needs. Some dedicated 240v circuits for the big toys, lots of 120v GFCI-controlled outlets for small tools, some dedicated 20A outlets for big tools (saws, refrig., etc.)You don't need an outlet on every stud. Every 6' is fine. My shop only has 16' of bench, but there are 6 duplex outlets (GFCI-controlled)in EMT running above the benches and below the shelves.Let me recommend B&D's "Advanced Home Wiring." It is available in book and home stores. Excellent technical work for what you want to do. Great photos.Enjoy,ToolBear - Suffering "Barn Envy"
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Blue, as you dig your trench, you should consider installing an extra conduit to carry telephone, cable, and any other futuristic cabling you may desire. These cables can all go in the same conduit (oversize it to make future fishing easier), but may NOT go in the same conduit as the electrical power. Perhaps you have no use for any of these conveniences in your barn/shop, but if you ever sell your small estate, a future buyer will appreciate these additional services, especially if he/she has dreams of converting the barn to a guest cottage.
*Thanks for the tips Toolbear!I'm heading for the library!Blue"Hydrogen isn't the most common elementin the universe, stupidity is."Frank Zappa
*Another good suggestion! Maybe I can drag my computer out there and have you guys check my connections via a web cam?This barn is getting complicated! Maybe that generator ain't so loud after all?!Blue
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Chis, Blue -
Good point on pulling a conduit for low voltage signal cable (CCTV, phone, etc.). We were repowering two shooting sports club in 96, 97 and laid in a "commo chase" everywhere we laid a UF feeder.
We used 3" white plastic drain line - which is as cheap a 3" hole as you can buy. It went in the center of the trench and the water line on the far side. Find it in the drain section of Home Depot. We would daylight it into plastic value boxes (drain section) which we used as pull boxes.
Either thread a pull line during construction (200-250# test)or have the fun of duct taping the shop vac to one end to suck one through. A wadded up plastic grocery bag with line attached worked for us.
It took about 4 seconds for 200' of buried chase.
Went back and pulled 7 cables about 600' for CCTV, phone, intercom circuits from the Range Master station to the IPSC range. It worked very well. Waterproof direct burial rated cables, of course.
*Blue,You can buy a generator cross-over switch over the counter. Eagle carries them. Get the right thing and hook it up right or you will cook Detroit Edison's linemen.The main thing the switch will do is make sure that when your generator is on, you are disconnected from the power company and visa-versa. Otherwise, you will be backfeeding current into their lines, creating a shock hazard - and they will not like you.In this day and age, that calls for a lawyer. Who needs this?Depending on the size of the gen set, you can select which of the house circuits you want connected to gen-power by the cross over switch.ROMEX - Remind the folks that you are keeping kids, not cows in the "barn." You can use interior NC for interior situations. Use exterior NC for wet work. What happened with early romex in barns was that the fumes (ammonia) and the moisture attacked the electrical fittings and soaked into the jute packing, making for a system that was degraded - and got worse.ToolBear
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Blue: the ceiling drop outlet is nothing more than a single outlet hanging on a cord that ends about 12" over your head, so you don't bang into it all the time but can reach it to plug into. Very handy.
The generator hook up to the service panel is potentially dangerous for several reasons. That is why you MUST notify the electrical company of such plans and they will provide a special switch for such purposes.
*Thanks for that tidbit, I didn't know I had to alert them first!Blue
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I built a new barn last spring, and finally tired of listening to the generator when I need electricity!
It's a detached (naturally, how can the boys get away, if it's too close to mama?) 28 x 40 with two floors. There are three bays in the 10' first floor shop. The kids use the 8' upstairs to play roller hockey, or whatever. I don't intend to go up there too much, just using it for offseason storage items.
I'm adding a 10 by 24' lean-to for my backhoe. I told her it wasn't big enough!
The barn is 150' from the meter. I'd like opinions about the size of wire, method (underground vs overhead). I'd prefer underground.
I currently have 3 spaces left on an upgraded 100 amp service (the previous owners did the questionable upgrade). There is a sub-panel already in the attached garage. I don't see any reason for the sub panel. There are 6 lights and 4 outlets, a pair of exterior lights and a 500watt flood. I also have a second meter that feeds 30amp water heater panel. I plan on changing to gas when I add on.
I probably will need to change the service panel again, 'cause I plan on adding a master suite sometime later this season. Maybe I should make the change now, and use the current panel out in the barn?
I'm considering a new drop from the pole (I'm not sure they would allow it, because I'm zoned R1), but not sure if it's needed. I think it would add a monthly service charge.
I have the normal things used by a carpenter contractor who does maintenance on his own vehicles.
I don't plan on getting into cabinet or furniture building, so there really isn't a great need for too big of a service, but...?
I've got a sears 5hp 240v compressor, and a 240 arc welder to hook up. Both have shutoffs on the machine.
I'll probably be heating with a woodburner.
I am basically a novice, studying my "Wiring Simplified" book for most applications, but do have access to competent help for one day. I plan on using that day wisely!
Any help would be appreciated.
*blue eyed devil,I am not an electrician but I have some experience based advice to pass along that may help you.First. It sounds like you are ready for 200 amp service. To get it you may have to run new lines to the power company's transformer. The alternative is to run a new service to your barn/workshop and pay a second bill (and basic service charge). This alternative only makes sense if you will be conducting business out of your workshop and want to write off the cost of the electricity you use. Also, it does not upgrade your house service to accomodate modern living. In today's lifestyle, 100 amps is not much.The critical distance is not 150 from your meter to the barn. It is the total distance from the transformer to the barn.I suggest you contact your power provider and make an appointment for the field engineer responsible for your section of the grid to meet you on your property. The engineer will not design a system forward of the meter for you. However, the engineerr will help you size your requirement, evaluate your current system, and determine if any changes need to be made in transformer location, service cable size, etc. This advice should be free. Depending on your provider, some portion of the cost of upgrading my be your resonsibility (new poles, trenching, etc.) Your engineer will know.One thing you migt consider is running your power to a meter at a central location. From there you can run lines to the existing panel in your house and a new panel in your barn. Very common practice on farms with outbuildings. You can also discuss the possibility of a sodium "yard light" at this location with the engineer. Most of the rural providers offer "yard lights" for about $10.00 or less a month. They are wired to the company side of the meter and you pay a flat rate. Nice when you are comming home late to your place in the boonies.Good luck,Steve
*Steve,Excellant advice...right on the money, especially the part about remote meter/pole/light/200a/split to two buildings...using the "free" utility engineer always...Been there, done that before....very nice system.Jack : )
*Blue hate to say it but it sounds like you need a new drop. Call the power company and see about getting a new 200amp service.
*If your 100 amp upgrade is questionable, you might have 60 amp SEC from the meter to the panel, which isn't good. I agree that 200 amp main panel sounds in order (all new houses seem to have them) plus I think having a sub-panel in the garage is handy. I'm about to do the same thing, and I'm going to convert my existing main panel into a 40 amp sub-panel in the garage.If your location is like mine, then everything from the weatherhead is your responsibility, and the power company takes care of from the pole to the weather head. So you need sufficiently large SEC from the weatherhead to the meter, and the meter to the main panel. Then it becomes an issue of voltage drop from the main panel out to the garage.I'm trying to go underground too, but I have a big oak in the way. I'll probably run plastic conduit, with 8/3 wire. Our standard is 6" deep in conduit, 12" bare wire. You are going farther, so you might have to get something heavier. If you go underground, be careful of the feeder roots of any trees. Typically, they are in the 6 inch to 18 inch deep portion. You can affect about 25% of the roots without too much trouble.So use the compentent help in two stages to:a. Develop an adequate planb. Make a materials listc. Pull the permitthen you can run all the wire and locate the boxes and stuff. Then get the help back to make the connections and transfer the wires from the old panel to the new one.Good luck!
*Thanks for the replies! I'm going to opt for the new drop between the barn and the house. I already have a pole in perfect position, and we need to make some changes anyways: my neighbor/daughter & son-in-law are adding on and needs to move some wires too. The 200 amp service in the house sounds plenty, and the 100amp in the barn makes sense too.Using the help to make the service change makes sense. Should there be anything that I should avoid in the barn? Is there anything that I want to make sure I do, besides putting an outlet on every stud?Whats your opinions about flourescent, incandescant etc.?Blue
*blue eyed devilFor your workshop - run dedicated lines for your major power tools, compressor, etc. For your barn - use a GFI breaker or outlets if you are going to be hosing down after livestock. Install a service panel with sufficient spaces so you can add breakers for the equipment you don't have now, don't intend to buy, but can not pass up when the deal of a lifetime comes along. I prefer florescent lighting in work areas. Incandescents use more electricity for the same amount of light. Also, florescent ligting seems more friendly and even to me. I would not use incandescents in a work area today. Incandescents are good for utility work and situations where ligt is need occasionally but not for long periods of time.
*I LIKE FLORESCENTS BUT THEY TAKE A LONG TIME WARM UP IF THE BARN/SHOP GET REAL COLD. I HAVE INCANDESCANTS IN THE BARN AND A MIX IN THE SHOP BOTH UNHEATED.
*blue,I installed 6 double 8' fluorescents in an unheated boathouse...used units that are made to start easily in cold weather...they do...they cost more...ask at your supplier.Jack : )
*To Blue: I am selling an excellent workshop woodstove, made of cast iron (Jotul) capable of 34,500 btu, a beautiful stove because I bought a ceiling hung gas heater. Point being: I suggest you don't use wood heat for a shop, they take too long to heat up, continual cooling and heating builds up creosote, etc, etc. You could probably pick up an old oil burner and tank for next to nothing or a propane heater. I wouldn't put outlets on the wall, use ceiling drops, walls are best for other stuff. A combination of fluors and incands are best. You can get "warm" fluor bulbs, put a cold and a warm in the same fixture. New on the market are halogens shop lites.
*I'm going to give that heater some thought. I have natural gas here, but was interested in exploiting the abundance of free wood. My walls are already gone, used up! I have 38 feet of workbench, and the entire back wall (40') is shelved! Where does all this junk come from? Where did I have it, prior to building the barn?I'm not in favor of ceiling outlets though. I don't like to climb ten feet for plugging in a cord. Wait, what's a ceiling drop?Anyone have any experience with the halogens? Blue
*Livestock?!!! The only livestock that'll get into my barn is the mice, and maybe our pet dogs.I live on a lake, in a small wooded subdivision. I might sound like a farmer, but I'm just a displaced city slicker!I'm thinking of getting a 5x10 snooker table for my barn! Mabye I'll try one of them fancy halogens over the top of it!I like all the spiders and mice running around, the women won't walk into my house!Come to think of it, I might have to add another addition on the other end to hold my van!Blue"Forget the Joneses, I keep up with the Simpsons."
*Oh, one other thing I forgot. You mention that you have a generator. If you change your main panel, you might want to put in an option for attaching your generator to the panel to supply electricity to critical circuits during a power outage. I don't know if that is a problem where you live, but we sure get it where I am. Anyway, I don't know much about the details, but apparently there is a switch and some way to run the power to a panel (or sub-panel) from the generator.Good luck!
*Blue;Good advise so far. A few thoughts:When you talk to the power co. don't be shy on telling 'em how much electricity you'll be using. (2 water heaters, 10 or 15 5 hp motors running at once...) I've found that if you have a higher anticipated demand sometimes they cover more of the costs. Not recommending being dishonest, just don't limit yourself, after all you really don't KNOW that you won't have 15 motors.I like flourescents, but the ones worth using cost alot. Forget the $8.99 HomeD specials. I've used 4 tube 48 inch units with reflectors and plastic diffusers. Balasts are rated for MINIMUM STARTING TEMPERATURE. The standard stocked versions are usually 50 to 60 degree F. You can get 0 and -20 rated ballasts. Also, watch the ballast ratings for wattage: 48 inch is not always 40W, some are rated at 34W and won't perform as well at low temp.I also recommend the more modern tubes with rare earth phosphors. Very pleasing light. You can get anywhere from ice blue shop lites to sun light to incandescent looks. You can spend from 3 to 8 dollars per bulb.I purchased 24 HomeVue units from HD. Turns out the ballasts they were using were differnt than earlier versions of the same fixture. However, the specs on the carton were for the original ballast. HD was zero help (well beyond their capacity). HomeView made good! Sent out 48 new ballasts! KudosBTW, with the 4 tube units, there are usually 2 ballasts, so if you run 3 wire circuits, you can have 2 switches on the circuit and turn on only half a light at a time. Nice for just puttering versus serious snooker.
*Am I missing something? 6 inches? You can hit that with a bad golf drive...I recall NEC as 6inch in conduit with concrete cover as OK, 12inch conduit in earth, and either 18 or 24 as bare wire?Also, check you prices.. often times using 3 single strands of #8 (with one #6 or 4 as ground) is cheaper than 8/3wG and also easier to pull.