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I can’t figure out what’s wrong with my boiler for baseboard heating. It has power, gas and water. Currently, it goes through a trial for ignition, the exhaust blower starts, the temp guage does NOT rise, pressure is at 18 pounds and steady enough. Then it shuts off the blower, but sounds like it’s still going through a trial for ignition. I flipped the power switch off and on a few trials and that worked until the ‘stat didn’t call for more heat, but it hasn’t worked again. It seemed to cycle to 225* rather quickly for the load of cold water it was getting while it was heating the water. I’ve checked the air bleed valve on the scoop–it’s been recently replaced and works fine, no air out of it. Hot water got pumped to the baseboards for a while, so that doesn’t seem to be the problem. I lifted up the pressure regulator for a manual fill–now i can’t think of anything else.
I would really hate to call a repairperson way out here on a weekend, but the temps are headed to single digits. Any ideas what parts i should replace first?
Replies
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You got a flame in side the boiler - heats water but no flow. Is that right?
*I can hear that pfftt (frying bacon, sorta like) sound of the igniter, but the temp guage never rises. After it attempts to start --exhaust blower comes on after ten seconds like it's supposed to--then the blowers stops a few seconds later, but it still makes the fffttt sound of the igniter. Burner lockout is supposed to occur if the water or gas are too hot or interrrupted, but this doesn't happen. Rather, it stays at the stage of attempting ignition, but the exhaust blower never comes on again. No temp rise, at any stage now.
*I'm not too familiar with boilers, but if a forced air furnace vent has a little too much restriction the exhaust pressure switch can shut the unit down.Is this a direct (PVC) vented unit? If so, check for any restriction at the outlet. If it is spark ignition, the module sometimes needs to be reset by turning the stat to no heat for about 45 seconds before it will start another cycle (or killing the power to the unit like you did before)If you have the wiring diagram (may be attached to the unit) you may be able to check the interlocks to see if any are holding the unit from lighting (rollout switches, etc)Sorry I couldn't be more help.
*There should be a small port where you can see if there is flame inside. Sounds like there is not.A. Check for fuel. If your tank is outside and it's cold, it could be that the fuel in the line is gelled or the filter on the tank is clogged.B. More likely - transformer switch on ignition is burned out. Time to call repairman. Sorry!I'll watch the board for another couple minutes but my wife wantssome hot stuff tonite too!
*If gelled fuel in line you could CAREFULLY use your hair dryer on it.
*Piffin; No port to look in--just steel. It's not cold enough to gel the propane, and i checked the tank at 40%. Filter on tank? I will call the supplier to see about that. Transformer switch--sounds like it's beyond my splinterpowers, but i'll look through the diagrams. The plumbing parts house i deal with is open tomorrow for a half-day, so at least i wanted a place to start if i can't get a repairperson out to the sticks. Thanks for your help; now go give your honey some sugar!Rick, this is hot water heat, so it has a metal stack within a stack--no PVC. No obstructions, though--checked for that, too. Thanks!
*If the stat starts the sequnce the transformer should be ok. If it doesn't ignite within a certain time after the gas valve opens, it will go throught the shutdown sequence. Either that,or it lights but the igniter does not sense the flame so it shuts off. Do you hear a whoosh like the burner ignites for just a short time?Again, I'm just going by experiences with forced air systems.Wish I was there to help but can't catch a flight from Detroit this late!
*Tales like this remind me how good it is living in Florida. 82 yesterday, almost 80 today with some afternoon rain and pushing 80 again tomorrow. The worst heater problem I came across about a week ago was the guy couldn't start his pool heater.
*The tank filter is a bottle about quart size at the outlet of the tank near the valve. I'm confused about no port - never seen one without.The transformer is the box on top of the motor at the base gate to the boiler. About 5"squareor so.Sometimes when it starts to get weak there is not quite enough spark to pass the coating of soot on the ignitor inside and a tech that knows what he's doing can get it runnig by cleaning but not for the novice to pull apart. I'm not a tech but that's the most common problem we run into here and I keep an eye on quite a few homes for summer folks. I know just enough to get into trouble occasionally while saving the day every now and then. Good luck and good night.
*The weird thing is, it doesn't shut down all the way, still keeps on making the igniting sound. I can turn off the power and restart it, and the blower comes on at the right time, but only for maybe 3-4 seconds, then it justs sits there ffttt-ing!This is not what the instructions tell me it is programmed to do.
*Then you may have a bad ignition module-it also opens the gas valve. Or the gas valve itself could be bad.Guess I should stop guessing from here!
*No, i guess we don't use filters here. I installed line from the tank to the house according to code, and i've never seen this type of canister on any other tank either. Maybe have to do with regional supply and how clean it is?I see only one transformer listed on my parts list, located in the control box. I'm going to go make sure all its wire connectors are snug--all i can do for tonight. Good thing i have a wood stove!
*A bad gas valve should give me lockout, but it won't hurt to switch that one off and on, too. I already did that with the gas shut off on the line in, but perchance the valve has something blocking it... at least i can eliminate it from the list of possibles.off to do battle...
*sg,I am not that familiar with residential hot water boilers, but have worked on comercial units.The ignition sequence is: 1. blower start up to prepurge the fire chamber, 2.oil or gas valve opens and flow is proven( in your case I think this would be pump start up),3. ingnition sequence starts (sparks), flame is detected and proven for a few seconds,4. exhaust blower runs.Safety interlocks at any one of these points could keep the boiler from operating. From what you have described, it sounds like it is not proving the existance of the flame.There should be some type of detector going into the unit near the burner port and spark igniter. Inside of this tube will be an IR or UV detector behind a small glass lens. The unit should slide out of the tube after loosening a locking colar. Remove it and clean both the lens and the small detector. Also run a rod with a cloth on it through the detector tube. Replace everything, and start the boiler agian.The firing sequence is controled by a device called a "flame guard", or at least that is what Honeywell calls thiers. Part or all of the flame guard control can also go bad. It takes a service tech. to trouble shoot one of those puppies.Most of my experience is with gas fired domestic hot water boilers and gas fired steam heating boilers. The one class I had on oil fired boilers was pretty basic stuff. The one thing I kind of remember is that the oil burner plate orfices should be cleaned or replaced at the start of each heating season. They tend to carbon up durring normal operation, though ussually not enough to prevent ignition. However, since I have never worked on one I don't know for sure.I know this is late,or really, really early, so I hope you have time to try cleaning the flame detector befor you head to the parts house.Dave
*Is this a "high-efficiency" unit ? If yes, check to see if there's a hose coming from the bottom of the flame chambre to a plastic (probably plastic) tubular unit that's fairly thin and maybe 8" long, it will have one or two other hoses attached to it; if still yes, that may be clogged (or some of its plumbing) and it's backing up condensation into the flame chambre.
*No way of spying on the igniter--no ports, no mirrors, nada. I should have noted the brand as Heatmaker, the H-series, for heat only, not DHW. I pulled the igniter itself and scanned it--is this typical or is the black color significant?Mine doesn't do the blower start up to purge the chamber (your step #1). It only comes on after about ten seconds of the call for heat.It does have a Honeywell board...looks more and more like service tech time.
*No, no condensate drain. I tried to access their site with no luck at all with the .pdf file at the manufacturer's site, though i tried the html and text versions google offered as well, and other sites are loading fine. I'd be curious if you could get it to download. Mine's the H-seies, 130K btu unit. http://www.laars.com/documents/heatsystems/h-series.pdf
*So...you have a guest room, Ralph? Just me plus seven...
*OK - I downloaded it, started reading it and then saved it. Should I send it to you ?Just a plodding squarehead.
*This is a propane fired, copper fin tube hot water boiler with a hot suface ignition. Use a multimeter to check for continuity on the igniter - a good reading will be 75 to 300 ohms - the igniter may have a hairline crack and not be glowing. Also - is the pump running? This boiler should have a flow switch somehere. If there is no water flowing through while it is firing, the water inside the fin tubes will flash to steam and the tubes will melt out of the unit - a very big mess! Call me if you are near Rochester NY!
*define near-splinter lives in montana.hope you are succesful splints
*Since you have the igniter out, can you plug it in without installing it in it's hole? Turn the heat on and see if it glows. Careful of that thing. They are VERY fragile & also (surprise) VERY expensive. Joe H
*I plugged the igniter back into its socket and fipped the switch--immediate glow, so that looks good. I just called a service tech who was recommended by the plumbing house i deal with, who says my first mistake was installing a Heatmaker. Since i don't have the meters/tools to go any further,i'm waiting for "Marcus" to come by this afternoon. What a guy! The bad part is that no one in the state carries these parts any longer...probably have to send for them all the way to Steve in NY! Thanks for all the ideas and copies of the file that several sent--you guys are simply the best. It's pretty much what i have in the installation and operating instructions that came with the boiler, plus some additional tables for flue sizing, but it was good to know i did all i could myself. I tried to print it for the tech, but my printer is now stuck on "confetti", the dog is limping, my renter called to tell me someone exchanged a headlight for a chunk of my maple tree, and about 3" of snow fell in the last hour...this is why i don't need cable. Now...off to bake cookies for the tech...
*gas?Did you say gas?Oh yeah! I see it now. That's what I get for trying to read after midnite.That explains why no filter on the line. I was trouble shooting an oil fired unit for you.I wonder if the crimped copper on the igniter you posted pic of has anything to do with this failure.Good luck and count your blessings. You've got your health still, right?
*Update: Markus called three hours later. He decided not to come bec it sounded too hard, but he tried to sell me a new Burnham over the phone. No cookies for him!!I called another 24/7 service place, big ad in the Yellow Pages. Could it wait until Monday? No, Monday's full; how about Tuesday? $64.95 plus mileage (35 miles each way) plus $90/hour to take a look; no guarantees. Would i like them to put a new Lenox in instead?David was #3. He came, he saw, the Honeywell board totally fried under his care, but he didn't charge me for the call. Replacement cost is clearly in the Mastercard range, but if i decided to do that, then we could have a place to start to see what the original problem was.Here, have a cookie.
*Wood heat is such a nice heat anyway!
*Well? Do you have ignition? Heat?
*spinter,Like piffen,I should not read after midnight, only I had just got home from work.Since this is a tube type boiler, you must have flow for it to run. There will be a flow switch on the water line somewhere. If the circulating pump is running, check the flow switch. There is a cover over it with two wires inside. Jumper the contact, and see if it will run then.I should have read a little closer this morning. Maybe I could have saved you the cost of the board the guy fried.Dave
*Don't you just love free advice from service places?It's ridiculous that any equipment board should cost so much-I try to fix them myself when I can.Did Dave fry a new one or yours?
*FWIW. Also check the limit switch the same way with a jumper. Yours might be auto reset or might have the little push button. So easy to overlook.Ignition module replacement cost should not be your cost since the tech was the one who fried it. That, on top of a free service call. Module cost is (in my book) $89.94.
*Rick G,Not this Dave. I live in KY. Be a hell of a service trip to Montana.I only work on my own stuff or the company I work for stuff.Dave
*I'm not sure serviceman David DID anything to fry the board; but it just happened when i was upstairs herding dogs instead of holding the light for him... He was pretty sheepish about it, but i have no reason to suspect it was negligent, just unfortunate. In fact, he's looking at his stockpile to see if he might have a salvage one to try. If that one doesn't work either, i'll decide on whether to find a new Honeywell S89C (since that's less that i expected it to cost) and chance it being something else besides, or start fresh with a new boiler. Tech Number Two told me he was presently working on the same model with the same symptoms, so i'll call him on Monday and see if he has anything for me in the diagnosis dept.The manufacturer is out of business and none of the phone numbers on the website or my manual function; Heatmaker parts are scarce, tardy, and expensive, according to several sources. I'm selling in spring and i'll be a neighbor to the new owners, so if karma didn't get me, the new owners would, so i can't just sorta fix it. Ralph, i checked the limit switch with a continuity tester--it's good, too. I see no re-set provision on it.Dave R., there was good flow from both circulators, up until there was no more power out of the board. Oddly, there should be lockout, though, if no gas to make heat, since the igniter was working.Rick G., you can fix the boards? I shudder to think of how flat my learning curve would be on THAT one. The wood heat is great; if only my insurance covered it...looks like i'll be mixing some fresh saw gas if i want to stay toasty, though.I searched this site today for info on recommended boilers, and found nothing on brands and reliability. Does anyone know if there was a thread my search missed, or if there's a review of the various brands somewhere? Locally, we have Trane, Coleman, Lennox, Heil, Bryant, Empire, and Lochinvar. I was waved off Lochinvar bec it's "single-passing", but i've no idea what that means. I have an idea that Colemans are for mobile homes mostly..?
*If the board is not too complicated they can be easy to fix. I've repaired industrial drives without a schematic before but the replacement/exchange is in the thousands of dollars so the time spent is worth it. Just takes time to track things down. Sometimes I get lucky.I know how the repair guy feels-I've had things go poof too- especially when I'm in a hurry.Guess I should have asked if it was a glow igniter instead of assuming spark from the "sizzling bacon description". If the gas was coming in, the igniter should have lit it unless for some reason the mixture was diluted (unless the burner DID light and the thermocouple did not sense it. Sounds like your unit just goes through shutdown when the burner doesn't light. Without seeing the diagram I'm just guessing again of course.As others have suggested, with the wiring diagram available one can trace through the various interlocks and narrow the problem down. Most times I would imagine the board is the last thing to suspect.
*There's power up to the board, but nothing out the other side at this time. Before it went *poof*, it had power out to the relays to run the pumps and blower, but there's a question of whether it operated the gas valve or if that function was just the first to go. I thought the brief bit of exhaust before the blower shut down smelled of propane, but tech said it was residual smell, so suspected non-combustion due to no gas past the valve. I mistook the sizzling-bacon sound for some sort of spark; this before i removed the igniter to see it and realize how it worked--sorry, my ignorance; i thought it was like a spark plug. I asked the tech and he said the "sizzling" sound was the pump impeller pushing water.
*Not ignorance-just not familiar.
*I just looked in my crystal ball. (Gut feeling.)It's the thermocouple.Of course, now you'll have to replace/repair that board the service guy fried, too.Forest/trees.
*I think a thermocouple is to ascertain if a flame is still burning. The igniter takes the place of the standing flame, so no thermocouple. The limit switches take care of telling the igniter when to glow, but something called a flame guard senses if there is combustion. If not, it shuts the system down. I think that's right...Ms. Knows-Enough-To-Take-It-Apart
*Well then, yer just not holding your tongue right.And your service guy was not holding his probe correctly.b : )Before any of youse gutter-minded individuals start in.... That statement about holding your tongue wrong is as old as the hills. If you can't hit the nail yer holding yer tongue wrong. If you can't get the thread through the needle eye, yer holding your tongue wrong.And as for the probe.... he obviously might've crossed a couple hot points on the board, with the metal probe end from his electronic meter, and shorted them out, threreby frying the board.Shame on all of youse who thought otherwise.
*you say the ignitor makes a noise... then you state that it glows when reinstalled in the socket... this type of ignition doesn't normally make a noise! a sound may indicate a bad valve - coil/relay for opening the valve (internal or external), except you imply that this is normal in the operation of your system. since you don't acknowledge hearing the sound of a main burner firing up, seems to confirm a bad valve/coil. there could be a secondary flame sensor but i believe that your ignition coil, when heated by the flame of the main burner, shuts off. with no flame, the ignitor will continue to glow and the valve/noise will continue. with no flame to the sensor, the exhaust fan will shut off. then the ignitor will shut off. after a period of time, the sequence will restart. it is also possible that your system is wired so that the exhaust limit switch or water flow switch need to be reset, as stated in an earlier post, before the main valve opens. the exhaust limit switch detects heat build up in the flue. if this was the problem, go on the roof and make sure the vent opening is unobstructed and capped. recently found a cap with holes in it that allowed water into the flue which was simply a lined wall cavity - the inner lining had collapsed and obstructed air flow out. but based on what i read here, it's the valve itself. sorry, but i checked my resources and turn up no comparative info on the various heaters.brian
*my response came a little tardy. when i refreshed this page i see that yu and others had already ascertained everthing i had to say. pretty active thread. burned out PCB... from bad to worse... sounds like you need winter survival advice at this point...for tonight, if you have some sheet plastic around, enclose your bedding with it - it will retain your body heat more effectively than blankets alone. get a space heater tomorrow.i feel for you,brian
*I JUST downloaded the manual (should have done that days ago). Might have been able to help more before the meltdown if I had!Very good troubleshooting section-I'll have to read it sometime.
*I tried, that's a big document, and it's a very slow server, sorry, I gave up after 20 minutes.
*Splint... I would be happy to help you find a boiler that meets your needs. Am fairly well versed... and realize one brand does not fit all apps.Also I can give you a number for a guy in CO with lots of Heatmaker parts. Lemme' know OK?
*Thanks, Wet Head, i knew we had common ground! I hadn't heard about a source in Denver, may need it yet.As i speak, the boiler is working! It came on spontaneously abt 10 this morning--no reason, i hadn't touched it since the tech pronounced it dead--and has been working flawlessly all day. I called the tech and i could hear the head scratching clear over here. I don't want to change it out if it doesn't need it, but i will definitely use your expertise if i end up needing a replacement after all. What a hassle!
*Now that is a tough one...
*Weird. You must have been holding your tongue right last night.The controls have a lockout that requires a power off/on reset. You knew that. I seem to remember they also might have a time delay feature but couldn't find any references. Might not be applicable in your case but with all the messing around and resetting and unplugging and plugging going on maybe it just needed time to pass the time delay setting. Does that sound reasonable or am I in the wrong ballpark?Hooray! HEAT!!
*It attempts ignition on its own a certain number of times, but then it goes to lockout, which requires a manual reset. The only scenario for it starting on its own is a speck of something plugging the gas came free, allowing gas to the igniter so i could have flame and maintain the blower, etc. But a gas interrupt is supposed to require a manual reset...yep, very strange. I'm still going to get a half-cord of firewood ready!I'm going to talk to tech #2 tomorrow, see if he figured it out on the boiler he was working on over the weekend that presents with similar symptoms.
*The mystery of self healing.........don't you just love it when things fix themselves? Not usually too permanent though...
*I want to know how it is working..... with a fried circuit board ???b : )
*You know, Splinter, I generally keep 2 browser windows open. That way I can read one thread while the other one is loading. In the other browser window, I'm reading the i Did anyone ever knock your socks off?thread. Then I flip over to this one and you're making cookies for the tech.Can't help but wonder..................(-:
*I fixed identically this problem with a high efficiency (ABS pipe chimney type) propane forced air furnace. It took a while, but eventually I figured it out. I noted a faint 'glurgling' sound which sounded like water. I checked out the water tube (that carries away the condensate on these hi efficency jobs) and it was empty. I then disconected the water tube from the plastic sort of manifold it connected to, and presto, about 1 quart of water flooded out.What had happened is that a big bug had crawled up the tube and died in a fitting, eventually resulting in the water accumulating. I don't know how the furnace knew how to shut off, but it did.'Debugging' the water tube fixed the problem....