I had a client that wanted to put a door between to old (1920s) stores in our local downtown. At one time it had a door there but was patched over at some point. I point out that we could slip on in the existing opening (after opening it again) and no one would be the wiser.
They said they would like me to talk with the local authorities to “do it right” and I said ” no problem, I will get back to you.
I call the fire inspector and he says what I thought he would say “I believe that will be considered a fire wall and so it will need to go through an architect and through the building department. Then it will need to be installed by a licensed contractor who does fire door installs.”
I said that is what I thought might be the case, thank him and hung up. I call the client and get the hubby. He says “What!? That is BS. Some bureucrat is just trying to jerk us around. No wonder nothing gets fixed up in the downtown anymore. Mrs. so and so spent a year and half getting a permit for one of her buildings all because some jerk in Reynoldsburg didn’t want to get off his lazy a#3 and make it happen. These people work for us you know! If it takes some a@# kicking then I am the man for the job by gum!”
I thanked him and hung up. Really glad to have not had to deal with the guy. Today the wife calls and says “Well, we found out it is a minimum of $1000 to file for this thing”. I said yes I understood that. She said “well we need to know how to go about your original plan, you know, just put the door in and no one will be the wiser”. I said “well that kind of went by the way side when I called and told the fire inspector the plan of action so I guess I can’t help you at this point.” She thanked me and hung up but sounded dismayed. Guess I am glad to not have had to work with her too! DanT
Replies
Great story.
When I'm on my soapbox about over-regulation, this is the type of over regulation I'm really talking about. Everyone seems to think I'm against all forms of regulation or permitting but really I'm not. I'd just like a little more commonsense approach to all of it.
I'm with you on that for sure.
Not sure this is case of over regulation but certainly poorly implemented regulation. Last commercial job we did had two stores we combined into a Credit Union. It was a fairly well built firewall. I added a bunch of site built windows destroying the fire rating but easily returned later.
My elec cont. poked a few holes above susp ceil for wiring but did it in reasonable manner. The Credit Union's security and data/comm boys raped the area getting their stuff through. Someone will have fun if they have to restore.
I can see some scenarios where there should be issues with replacing the door. However I also see that putting in a rated door iaw mfr's specs should have fit the need.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
We have an old wood-framed downtown. Some of it even has/had a common basement under it. Five years ago there was a fire and an entire block burned down. Since then there's been a fair amount of fire upgrades.... partitioning off the remaining common basement, adding drywall all over the place, even some sprinkler installs. If I'm not mistaken we have one of the last old wood-framed downtown fishing villages in Washington. Maybe there's one other, but the rest burned.
Anyway, as a firefighter I really appreciate all the fireproofing. I hate the idea of fighting some huge fire that's jumping from building to building, losing the whole thing anyway, and then watching the business owners all struggle to recover and mostly fail.
Keep those firewalls coming!
I am confused.
First you bring up the option of not permitting or informing anyone, then after the Fire Inspector is checked with you now feel you don't or wouldn't work with either of the people?
Why bring up the option to start with then?
I would have installed a door in the original opening. Once the fire inspector was alerted he would have surely been looking for the offence. I realize this option would not be popular with all here but I am ok with it. In my mind a door installed where a door was. But once the fire inspector was alerted (we live in a small town) simply seeing our truck would alert him to the offense. DanT
Dan,
For what it's worth, there is no specific licensing for a "fire door". It does have to be permited (state law) and stamped by an archy or PE. $1000.00 sounds right. If it was Columbus it would be more.
Consider this, if you had put the door in & a fire broke out on either side and went through that door to other structures (I"m familiar with your downtown ) you can bet your butt woulda been in that sling all alone without it being permited.
"this dog may be old but he ain't cold. And he still knows how to bury a bone."
Lattimore
http://www.rehmodeling.com
Thanks for the clarification. Yes, I knew the risk. As I said above I knew it would not be a popular decision on my part. DanT
what add's up to cost $1K or more?
and why would the plans have to be stamped?
can't ya just spec and install a fire rated door? why the need for an archy or PE?
sounds all to convoluted to me ... $1K for paperwork is way outta line.
is it 'cause it's considered commercial work as opposed to residential ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
what add's up to cost $1K or more?
It's mostly administration fees for the state. because Marion dosen't have it's own building department (and if it did it would have to be certified to be up to standard for commercial inspections) the inspectors come out of the district office in Reynoldsburg, 60 miles away.
and why would the plans have to be stamped?
State law concerning public saftey. All commercial work is to have a stamp of approval from a P.E. or archy
can't ya just spec and install a fire rated door? why the need for an archy or PE?
It gets done all the time & without permits or inspections. I don't do it any more as the building departments know me & for the most part we all get along (mostly). PLus I'm back to having something to lose & my attorney is real good at starting sentances with "because I work for you I can't admonish you for being such a bone head (toned down for the overly sensitive who;s attitude offends me greatly)
sounds all to convoluted to me ... $1K for paperwork is way outta line.
No argument but that's what it is. MArion it's self is to blame in part by eliminating the building department. Chances are it woulnd't be near that there if they had one. I know it woulnd't be here in Delaware (another small city 20 miles south where I live)
is it 'cause it's considered commercial work as opposed to residential ...
yup
"this dog may be old but he ain't cold. And he still knows how to bury a bone."
Lattimore
http://www.rehmodeling.com
A great response. And correct on all issues especially out elimination of the building department. It really was handled poorly by the local politicians thus no building department. Frustrating to say the least. DanT
<i>It really was handled poorly by the local politicians thus no building department. Frustrating to say the least. DanT</i>Gee, sort of the same here.
First of August, all 254 counties in Texas are under UBC & URC (2003) whether they want to or not. There are about 100 municipalities with existing Building Codes and some form of enforcement to go with--this leaves a great deal of the State with near-nugatory legislation to cope with.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Tx is forcing everyone to get inspections now even if they don't have permits. I'm not sure if we have to pass the inspections though.
Tx is forcing everyone to get inspections now even if they don't have permits. I'm not sure if we have to pass the inspections though
Well, that's the big giant question. And where the word "nugatory" creeps in.
Technically, what has happened is that no one in Texas is to build to less than UBC/URC standards.
But, no structure was created for either permits (implying documents review) or enforcement (implying inspections).
The lawyers tell me they call an unenforceable bit of legistlation "nugatory" meaning that it's only enforceable if legislation is enacted to require enforcement.
Round numbers, there are 8 counties where there are enough cities of enough size that a County BI system might be cobbled into existence. There's probably another dozen where the County Seat is large enough to knock together some sort of BI office. That leaves about 220 counties needing to create, from scratch, entire Code Enforcement offices. It may be difficult, out towards Cochran, Deaf Smith, and some of those similar counties (ones about the size of CT, but with only 4-800 residents) to make that sort of investment.
Near as I can tell, the thing that has happened is that if you build it, and it falls over, you get asked in Court, "Did you build this to Code?" Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"Near as I can tell, the thing that has happened is that if you build it, and it falls over, you get asked in Court, "Did you build this to Code?""And that is the way it should be. That;s good enough for me. As a consumer, I have multiple options to hire home inspectors to verify the conditions as the house is built and I can write that into the contract. The addition of governmental inspections infringes on my free choice and I'm forced to pay them even though I might not approve of their inspectors, time frame and methods.
What standards are you proposing your inspectors use ?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
There are plenty of existing standards that are suitable.
"First of August, all 254 counties in Texas are under UBC & URC (2003)"Can you get me link to that code.The last UBC that I have found is the 1997 edition..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Can you get me link to that code
Here's the first one I found:
http://www.reedconstructiondata.com/building-codes/texas/
Of course, since you ask, I can't find the news link I last saw and thought I bookmarked (curse of touching too many computers).
Given the gaggle of AHJ; and that every regulating body seems to pick a different "page" to be on, I'm not exactly surprised to find a lack of content on this question.
harumph, this is the "city' side of it (which is old): http://www.tml.org/legal--q&a/2006April-SH.pdf
I'll keep looking for the new rule for Counties.
Now, under the labyrinthine tangle of Texas laws, it's fascinating to find that the Texas Insurance board madates wind-storm construction rules in the costal counties, whether the counties or the munis within do. But, since they cannot mandate that political bodies mst enforce those laws--back to nugatory legislation only good for trial attorneys.
Now, more "up your alley" Texas has mandated that any person doing electrical work for hire and working on line voltage must have at least a JM license issued by Texas. You have to be up to whichever NEC they are using to pass that exam. Plumbers & a/c folks are similar--so there's a "backwards" code enforcement sort of out there. Except, sadly, most munis will allow home owners to perfrom licensed work on their own personal dwellings--in those places with inspections.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I was not that concerend about the version of the code that they used.what got me was the reference to the UBC and not the IBC.afaik the UBC has been frozen in place at the 97 version and not updates since them.I have some plans for some change in my house and our "fine city" has addopted "UBC 97 or latest version". I have not read the city ordinance, but if that is what it says I doubt that they are actually using the UBC.as to what the tx is using I found the residential construction comission.http://www.trcc.state.tx.us/default.aspand links about this.the one the actual law and rules I could not find where it mentioned WHAT CODE that was being used for inspections.but I found this under faq's."What are the code requirements for these required inspections?
The statewide residential building codes are the 2000 International Residential Code (IRC) and the 1999 National Electrical Code (NEC). These, however, may be amended in local jurisdictions if they have updated the code provisions. The code that applies to an incorporated area is the same code adopted by the county seat. If the county seat has not adopted an updated version of the code, then the 2000 IRC applies."which are a couple of cycles old..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
what got me was the reference to the UBC and not the IBC
Sorry, been in case prep mode for a deal which is long been tabled which involves UBC; then I short-coupled on which year rather than correcting the acronym.
I found reference, though, that IRC 2006 might actually get advanced as the standard--but that may only wind-zone areas, too.
Hmm, just looked at the "Have clipboard, Will travel" BI-for-Hire rules; looks like IRC 2000 & NEC '99--almost hate to inspect to that far back on the NEC.
Hmm, pass the eight ICC tests and send them $30; then Texas gets $50 more, and that's it? Think anybody would notice if I dba Paladin Inspection Services?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I rarely do commercial, and the limited amount I've done over the years has either been as a sub, or worked direct thru an archy already associated with the job ...
so now I'm wondering how that'd work here!
I'd assume I simply go downtown and pull a permit with spec's for a firedoor as in my Q to you ... expect a framing inspection and final. Now I'm wondering.
just might have to call downtown and ask.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
in Michigan, all commercial work must have sealed drawings, no changes can be made without new stamped drawings.
however, no license is needed for commercial work, only residential
Had an electrician on a job today, and he got a call from a contractor that needed him to pull a permit under his license for a different job. Electrician said "no way"
Seems the electrician had wired a family room, and kitchenette in a basement for the contractor. Homeowner previously had unpermitted work done in the place, by unlicensed people, and when the inspector came through, he wrote up the violation.
Sinse this is an 8 unit condo, the HO cannot pull their own permits. So they are screwed unless they can find someone to pull a permit on the unpermitted work. Otherwise it will need to be torn out.
My understanding was that the HO was holding up the payment because the contractor pulled the permit for the other work, and allowed the inspector in the residence. HO feels the contractor is responsible for the inspector finding the unpermitted work.
Some people are just not worth working for.
Bowz
One time a "friend" called me over to help him put in a patio door in his rentals, i went over and asked where was the permit???.
He said dont worry about it, and i figured it was his house so i started working.
2 hours later here comes the BI and the "friend" runs out and sez bobby said it was OK to do this work without permits.
lesson learned they will rat you out if caught.
Some people are just out for themselves!!! We have to be cautious of such people!!!
-Lou
I met the fire inspector about two months ago and your right, he came on the job sight when he was driving around town. No one had made any contact with him previously, I got the impression he was out drumming up business for his office.
The good part was we had just finished our part of the project, and I had just pulled the door shut and locked it and didn't have a key to get back in. I did call he owner of the building and let him talk too him.
Later I talked with the owner, the fire inspector had sent him copies of all the reg's that must be followed, now the owner doesn't think he can afford to complete the project.
The politicians say they want to encourage small business, but they don't seem to have a clue how to help this town.
"The politicians say they want to encourage small business, but they don't seem to have a clue how to help this town."It's like that all over and getting worse. The entire concept of government protecting the small guy has created a new industry in America and the cost is staggering. It won't end till we are bankrupted. It will continue to get more complicated for simple things and the policing and penalties will continue to increase.
You can thank lawsuits and lawyers for that. Litigation will be the downfall of all of us.
When I was looking for a retail space where I used to live I heard similar stories, and people were generally pi#$ed when they had to pay extra to conform to a safety code and couldn't just start doing whatever they wanted, forget the sprinklers, etc.
It was a small town, and I had several visits with our local inspector to review the actual spaces we were looking at and what the possible code issues were before we got into negotiations for lease or purchase. Most other people did their best to circumvent the compliance and inspection process, resulting in fines and the extra cost of re-doing things that were wrong, and everyone was even more ticked then.
Those old buildings had been vacant for a long time, and I guess people had forgotten how easily fire could spread through them or how many weird additions and changes had been made. I looked at one building where the electrical panel and main breaker was in the locked stock room of a store 3 businesses away. And people whined when the inspector told them that would have to be corrected before the building could be used again!
Sorry, DanT, but I think your response should have been to tell the client that, while it would be nice to just slip in that door and hope to get away clean, it could pose a fire hazard and would almost certainly be subject to inspection.
You hit it dead on about what happens in the old buildings. Since I've switched over to primarily commercial I"ve received a whole new appreciation for the "creativity' people have. Any one arguing the saftery codes are just a hinderence to small business is just plain wrong. Unless it isn't applied evenly ( where I am it is) it's a level playing field. I"ve seen burnouts in commercial structures that were old & cobbled together & I"ve seen fire damage in structures that were brought up to modern standards. Guess which ones did better?"this dog may be old but he ain't cold. And he still knows how to bury a bone."
Lattimore
http://www.rehmodeling.com
It's the thousand dollar fees attached to one doorway that is the problem.
the $1K fee also helps push the underground work.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
In the area where I used to live there was a big push to revitalize the downtown and bring back the old buildings. I guess everyone thought the city's inspection department was going to grandfather everything or simply overlook code violations to help that along. They took a lot of heat for simply applying the same safety rules for renovations that they'd been applying to new structures.
Part of the problem was the mindset of the owners of the structures, who had neglected the buildings for years and were rubbing their hands at the thought of the rent income. However, they expected their tenants to foot the bill for all the repairs and code upgrades with little or no compensation in their rent. Of course, the tenants generally refused, then the owners and potential tenants blamed the city for standing in the way of progress or tried to get away with doing things behind the inspector's back.
Eventually we bought an old home for our shop, and then sold it to our attorney when the shop closed. She told me that when the inspector came out to inspect some plumbing work she had done, he said she probably had the best renovated and safest old structure in the downtown area.
The revitalization eventually failed for lots of reasons, so I guess those oddly-wired, stuck-together old buildings will be there until they burn down or fall down.