I want to learn how to veneer plaster
chiefclancy
| Posted in General Discussion on
I have an upcoming project in which I would like to give veneer plaster a try. I’ve done drywall in the past but have no experience whatsoever with VP. Does anyone know of any resources, such as books, magazines, videos, articles, etc which might help me out? Any specific suggestions?
Thanks in advance
Andy
Replies
I think JLC online has a drywall forum.......maybe that guy would have some info. Jeff
* Jeff J. Buck/ Buck Construction/ Pittsburgh, PA *
2nd Generation Buck Const, 3rd generation Craftsman
I know how you feel, some months ago I decided to take on veneer plastering most of my apartement, and had no luck whatsoever with any books or sources......I will try to tell you what I learned.
First of all we started with the ceiling, 4 guys on some made up scaffold..It was quite a mess, but after 2 trys we got something that was closer to smooth than rough. After about 2 rooms and very sore arms i was able to get a very smooth surface.....
Let me give you the fundamentals; I will assume you are going over existing drywall. In order for the plaster to adhere to the wall you will need to apply a bonding agent first. there is a product called "Plaster Weld" OR you can use plain old concrete bonder( elmers glue),they both chemically bond the plaster.if this is new construction there is a product called "blueboard" that is treated to accept plaster.
It is important not to skip this step. Just dilute slightly to allow for flow and roll on the wall.
Common veneer plaster is calcined gypsum(CaSo4 1/2 H2o) w/ sand and perhaps a retarder. After mixing with water a chemical reaction begins that is unreversable, this is a result of half of the water heated away during the manufacturing. It is this reaction that allows the tight finish and as well makes plaster hard to deal with.So the more people, the easier it goes. Some add a retarder to slow the set. I highly recomend it.there are comercially available retarders, ( although I couldnt find one) or you can use vinegar.
I added acrylic thinset modifier(used in tile work). I really think that helped in the workability, It also helps to keep the color uniform if you decide to add pigments. I added common paint pigments and got great results.
For the application. Mix up only enough for one wall. Take a Hock and smooth steel trowel, start appling as fast as you can. Afer plaster is on the entire wall start to smooth down. YOu will notice that as continue to smooth the plaster seems to compress down as it sets, as the plaster sets you need to lightly spray with water as you smooth. The plaster can only get as smooth as the rate that it is "going off" chemically. This is a hard thing to explain, you just have to do it a few times to get the feel.
Ther are also base coat plasters that go on easier,and go off much slower. I had some success mixing the two for a happy medium. I highly recomend trying some sample boards and colors first
I hope I have been of some help, as far as tools, there is a japanese trowel that is very smooth and well made you might want to get for the final finsh stages.
I hope you try it out. I personally feel that the finish is far superior that paint, and I grew up in a painting family.
Let me know how It turns out.
I think JLC also had an article on-line? Not sure if it's pay-per-view, though.
Walls and Ceilings also has been running a series of "how-to" articles. The last hardcopy I got had part two of three in the series. I'm pretty sure they put their articles on-line as well.
Also, look into USG's "Gypsum Construction Handbook."
Edited 4/17/2002 2:35:57 PM ET by Mongo
The reason you won't find much in writing about how to plaster is because it's primarily a physical skill. You have to be taught by someone who knows. It's like trying to learn to play the violin by reading a book.
-- J.S.
Yeah, the best way to learn is to hire on with a crew doing it. I don't do it, but I watched a crew here do 10,000 ft of it. Wow. Trowelling over and over and over until there was no cream to pull off the wall. Any new guy would be crying by the end of the day be/c his arm hurt so bad he couldn't lift it. The key is the timing...learning when it's set up enough but not too much.
Thank you all for your input, this is very interesting. I understand what John means about having to be taught. Unfortunately in my area veneer plaster isn't terribly common, so I feel like a little trial and error might be my best option at this point. That way I can figure out if I enjoy it as little as I enjoy taping and mudding!
Thanks again
Andy
I think John means it's as much as an art as process. All done by feel. And knowing what feel you're looking for could be a long road by yourself.
As also mentioned.....it's also a matter of timing....much like finishing concrete. Just watched a neighbor of mine fight with a little parking slab. He had that "it looks alot easier on TV" look at the end of each day.
I know I wouldn't have been much help.....my concrete finishing days were 15 yrs ago.....and I don't wanna dedicate myself to walking that road again!
I'd say...most practical would probably trying to track down some video......what the fluid of motion and try and copy that.
There's a reason everyone don't do it.....it's tough! I know I can't do it to well enough to satisfy myself. Jeff * Jeff J. Buck/ Buck Construction/ Pittsburgh, PA *
2nd Generation Buck Const, 3rd generation Craftsman
Check the PBS and HGTV and TLC channels for videos from their home shows. I know I've seen veneer plaster on some of them, and even 2 minutes of seeing someone do it in the background may save you hours of trial and error.
Check with USG for videos too. They have an DIFS (decorative interior finish system) video that may show some of it.
If you can handle a trowel without hurting yourself you should be able to do a fine job, but you never said what the job is, or the size.
My first effort was in Dad's bathroom, I figured even if the worst happened, (and I expected trouble), he wouldn't be too mad at me after a while. As it turned out the material was easy to work with, (uni-kal over bluebrd), and the small size of the job kept me from getting into a nightmare. Dad and the plaster are doing fine, 80+ for the geezer and well over twenty on the plaster.
I had watched a job or two, asked around, and read the instructions. As mentioned the take off time is critical, but not that bad. Some say to spray the plaster to finish it, but I just use a cheap wallpaper brush. The internet is a wonderful thing, roam these sights for application info >>>
http://www.usg.com
http://www.national-gypsum.com
Edited 4/17/2002 5:28:55 PM ET by Qtrmeg
The job consists of one room, roughly 11x12. It's for a friend of mine who's let me learn a few other things on his house before. We're removing the original plaster to allow for badly needed insulation, and then we're planning on hanging blueboard and then the veneer plaster. If it goes well, others could be done. This is an experiment.
I'll check into those websites, and hopefully I can track down a video.
Thanks again
Andy
Err, blowing insulation in isn't an option?
The current plaster in this room is in real rough shape. It appears the top coat is losing adhesion from the scratch coat, as the entire wall surface of all four walls has alligator cracked. Some of the chips that come off reveal the brown coat beneath. This looks like a problem that was just "painted over" year after year but it has gotten much worse and now everything looks like crap. See the attached picture.
Besides insulation, we're looking to massively update electrical, add sound-reducing insulation in the ceiling (this is a 2-family house), and a few other changes that having the walls open would permit. I know it may sound like over kill, but it seems like the best option for now.
Andy
Maybe it's just the picture, but that looks to me like bad paint and a little water damage at the bottom. I've seen -- and saved -- much worse looking stuff. You might save yourself a hell of a lot of work and some money by going with the blown-in insulation and just patching what needs it. The blown insulation will make two nice holes for you to practice on every 16". Scrape away the weak stuff and have at it.
-- J.S.
The effect in the picture (which is a little hard to make out) is visibile on the entire wall surface, with some areas worse than others. Most of the wall surface is alligator-cracked but hasn't actually started flaking. I'm thinking this is either due to a bad paint layer from years ago, or the top layer of plaster could be failing. The chips that do come off are pretty thick, more so than just a couple layers of paint. Short of stripping, I'm not sure how I could remove all of this material. And stripping would probably wind up being as much if not more work.
I'm definitely considering blown-in if I can establish a relatively easy and cost-efficient means of dealing with the finish surface problems. Otherwise, out it comes.
Thanks for your thoughts
Andy
You can save that plaster if the plaster is solid to the lathe, but from the way you are talking I would get a dumpster and rip to the studs; trim/plaster/lathe, in that order.
I like the idea of updating the mechanicals, but I hope you have a plan for the whole house, and haven’t just picked a room to practice on. As for actually doing the plaster work, the first thing I said was you need to have the skill to use a trowel. Some people will never get it, and others take to it like a duck in water. You have to have quality tools for this, and it helps if they are broken in.
There are a lot of stupid details I won’t bother with at this point, just decide what you want to do, decide on the products available, and add questions as they come to you.
Andy,
Have you checked out the faux painting technique known as Venetian Plaster?
I've never done it, tho have seen it and glanced at the instructions from the paint companies that make it. Tho one of the steps is a troweling of some material, it doesn't appear to be nearly as intense as real plastering (which I've done).
It's also designed to be used over drywall, rather than the more esoteric plaster board. The job I looked at looked like real plaster to me. Hard troweled, smooth and shiney.....with the most amazing, attractive subtle variation in color.
Shelley
Andy,
This might help. I have the doc, but couldn't figure out how to attach it to this note.
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/3cc07496002fde7a271a401e1d290667/Product/View/0008skim
A really good lesson I just learned yesterday the hard way that you don't want to experience... if you're using gypsum lath, use blue board... DO NOT use drywall. I've read and heard people say "just use 3/8" drywall turned backwards (heavier paper out), and coat with plaster weld/bonder". Do not, repeat, DO NOT do this!!! For small repairs I've had it work, but for a closet I was working on... my luck came to an end.
I'm not a plasterer by any means, but my project was to duplicate the plaster original to my house, which is 3/4" thick... 3/8" gypsum lath, followed up with basecoat/finish coat plaster (using USG Red Top wood-fibered base, and Diamond finish). In applying the basecoat I saw some cracks, and I felt it may be that the basecoat was going on too thin and drying too quickly. So, I applied more basecoat. What was happening was that the moisture was making the drywall spongy, and so both the plaster was drying too quickly AND the lath was bowing, both contributing to the cracks.
The remedy... tear out and start over :-(. So, if you're doing veneer work, you might get away with drywall. Otherwise, use blue board...
Oh, and getting the finish coat smooth is definitely not as easy as it looks! Good luck!!
Thanks for the warning!
I'm gonna check out that JLC article and a few other things before I commit to doing this. Thanks again for all the input
Andy
Let us know how it goes. What works and what don't. Jeff "That's like hypnotizing chickens........."
Lust for Life
FYI, I'm not sure if you've checked into the JLC article yet, but I think they're now charging for that one. It used to be free. In any event, I have it, and it covers primarily some basics on plastering, and focuses primarily on veneer (skim coat) plastering. It doesn't focus much on the traditional "bullet-proof" scratch/brown/finish coat systems. I have that in my house (circa 1941), and it asks for some teenager to get mad and punch it. Surely broken knuckles or wrist would ensue, and the walls would scoff at the punishment.
Anyway, a good book I've come across is "Plastering Skills" by F. Van Den Branden and Thomas L. Hartsell (ISBN: 0826906575). Lots of good information on all aspects of plastering that I've had a tough time finding anywhere else.