For those who don’t know me, I am a residential GC (designer/builder) who does mostly additions. I have 9 years of management experience (mostly commercial). I have also served as a superintendent on occasion.
Things are a little slow for me right now and I have aquired this bug to perform concrete work. I have a finish man to do flatwork. What I need to do is learn how to operate a backhoe. I simply lack the training.
From internet searching I have found there are heavy equipment schools which cost a couple grand and last for 8-12 weeks. I have also found videos and books.
I suspect the mechanical operation is a matter of knowing the operation and getting a feel for it. I’m sure I can learn the operation from a video. It’s the getting a feel for it and the things only an experienced operator can tell you that I need.
Is there anywhere that I can get 8 hrs of instruction? I am willing to travel. I live in central Indiana.
Any other thoughts or advise is appreciated.
WAHD
Replies
just a thought
if you have a place to "play"
rent a bobcat with backhoe attachment and then "play". they should show you the basics.
can learn some of the coordination before going to a "real" backhoe
never done this so don't know the relationship between the controls on a bobcat and larger backhoe.
bobl Volo Non Voleo
DO NOT TAKE THIS AS A SUGGESTION...IT'S JUST A STORY.
I rented one from then Prime Equipment, now Rental Service Corp. They dropped it off and asked, "Ever use one before?" "Nope." "Well, this is the gear, this is the bucket, etc. Have fun."
As I tell people now, being able to rent a backhoe with no prior experience is both the scariest and coolest think I know. First thing I had to do was drive it up a 30 degree dirt driveway. Gets you a quick education.
If you have a big ol' piece of FLAT ground to play on, just go rent one for a week, and have fun. Don't do anything high, deep, or fast. Don't let anyone without experience anywhere near when you're on it, because the arm can swing side to side in a heartbeat and kill someone. Then after a day or two, hire an experienced operator for an hour or three and have him show you a bunch of tricks of the trade. It won't make you a pro by any means, but it'll increase your comfort factor and give you an idea of what you can do and what you should hire for. Take the money you save from a course, and buy beer for the Breaktime gang.
sound advice.
Cloud's suggestion makes a lot of sense.
Backhoes aren't that complicated to run. It takes time to remember what lever makes what move, and in what direction. There are certain things you have to remember, like setting the outrigger arms before using the bucket. But mostly it's practice. Getting the arm to swing in a controlled manner from side to side without being jerky takes a lot of practice. As cloud says, this is the most dangerous part. I nearly got taken out by a digging arm one time that way.
The next most dangerous thing is hitting a powerline (overhead or below ground) or other utility lines.
If possible, I'd want to start by having someone who knows how to run one show me how everything works. I'd be more comfortable starting with someone showing me what to do, then practicing, then getting instruction. Just my preference though.
My training was a few hours at the National Gaurd armory one day. It only took a couple hours of practice to get relatively proficient. I had some experience running forklifts and farm equipment before that, so that helped. Still, I don't have nearly enough hours on one to be anywhere near a professional level of skill with one. I'd love to spend more time playing with one though. Just not much need to use one around the house.<G>
I think operating a backhoe is like playing chess - Easy to learn, but difficult to master.
Practice is the only way.
REGULAR practice. It ain't like riding a bike. You don't do it for a while you lose your touch.
When things go wrong, don't go with them.
Talk to your local CAT diesel dealership. When we bought our lull they asked us if we wanted to take their training course. We passed on it first, then after a coupla OSHA run-ins, my boss and I got certifed by CAT, then got our hydraulics licenses. It was only an eight hour Saturday. Four hours class room instruction full of do's and don'ts and vehicle capabilities and videos...pretty cool. The second half was hands on in the "play ground". They offer one of these courses two or three times a year for each type of machine. Not sure what it costs without buying a machine, but I would imagine it's reasonable.
EDIT: Sorry Boss, I meant to direct this toward WAHD. :)
Edited 6/17/2003 4:43:25 PM ET by dieselpig
My first backhoe experience was a rental to install a water service to my house and get off the well. I got licensed by the water company to tap their main....
I've heard a number of guys say they can dig out plastic main, "feeling" the pipe with the teeth of the machine. Scared the #### out of me $$$-wise to bust an 8" 160 psi water main so I hand dug the last 2' under the locate tape.
I hit the gas service line on the venture, I watched real close as I dug and when I saw yellow I stopped. They mislocated it so not my fault.
There is considerable skill to being efficient with the machine, but not too difficult to operate in an inefficient manner. I work for an underground utilities company and we time our guys on swing radius, etc. for efficiencies (with trackhoes). Anyway I would like to practice enough to get good with one. We have guys that can dig 100' hour of 4' deep trench, I could do 100' in a day if I kept at it. Plus they can get a level bottom of trench and mine is not at all even, +/- .5' so lots of stone to even it out.
good luck,
remodeler
Good advice from all. Only thing I would add is try a Deere or Ford with the wobble sticks. I think Case and Cat may have gone to them on some of the more recent models. Easier learning curve than separate levers. Small Kabotas are also easily learned (wobble/joy stick controls) ,and are great for residential work. Not as quick or powerfull as a skidstear, but not as damaging around older homes with nice landscaping and lawns to consider.
I have played with all of them a lot in the past 25 years. Better with some models than others, but a few hours a day brings me back to my previouse level (better than a weekend warrior, but not nearly a pro)
Dave
Here is one trick that I learned.
I have a lot of rocks and was also working real between two sewer grounder pumps with the discharge lines that I "thought" was deep and electrical conduit which again appeared to be deep at that point, but at other places they where just under the surface.
What I learned to do was to scrap the ground backwards with the bucket at about a 45 degree angle. That way the teeth won't catch a pipe. Do it a few times to loosen the dirt and then use the bucket to clean out the the loose dirt. Then get out with the shovel and explore a little and it you are near anyting then scrap some more. P.S. AFAIK there was no warning tape installed with then put these in in.
Having owned and operated backhoes for 20 years, take the suggestion about renting and use in large flat area to get feel of controls. Most backhoes including excavators operate the same as far as controls go.
Do not operate on slopes or hills until you have had some more experience, trust me the pucker factor can happen real quick in this situation.
You can read all the books and watch all the videos you want but until you sit down and start to operate controls is the only way to learn. However the books and videos would probably help to understand safety and limitations of the machine.
Running most any equipment is not unlike learning to drive a car, type on a keyboard, play a musical instrument, or ride a motorcycle, especially with the better hydraulic control systems on modern machinery.
Spending the money to go to an operator's school is, IMO, a waste of money, because your skill development is going to come from, as someone said earlier, practice, practice, practice. Getting an experienced operator to get you started would be a asset...IF he's a good operator (there ARE some experienced dirt hacks).
After awhile, the controls and their function become mindless extensions of your body and your eventual familiarization with a particular machine and it's capabilities and limitations in a variety of conditions will gradually bring you an acceptable level of confidence.
And besides, moving dirt and tearing down buildings and ripping out stumps is great fun! And learning to do it cleanly and efficiently and safely is even MORE fun!
Getting the basics is easy.
Getting good enough to dig next to a foundation without stripping the siding or cornerboards and taking down power lines is what you need practice for.
Jerky manuevers comes partly from older hydraulics and worn parts. Nwere, well maintained equipment is smoother and safer, as a general rule.
Most rentals and dealers can provide soime basic instruction - afer that it is all practice and thinking. With a bucket out front and the hoe in back, there's a lot of swing when you turn to move the machine so you have to be totally aware - which I know you are.
It sounds like you are thinking about excavations. if you'll be renting occasionally, an excavator is the better tool. Controls similar but more efficient machine.
Excellence is its own reward!
I have never used a backhoe as a backhoe (I did rent a tractor with a bucket that happened to have a backhoe on it).
But I did rent one of the compact excavators. And you are right you can get into tight areas with those. And no leg extentions to lift each time that you have to lift and lower each time you need to reposition.
Now I don't know if this is true or not, but the fact that the operators is always in line with the hoe and bucket on an excavator seems to me to make it much easier as you always have the same perspective of the work.
when I sold for the local Cat dealer I had to go out and learn to operate a excavator well enough to demo in front of some pretty experianced operators..
It really is a rub your belly pat your head kind of thing..
Now for comments on brands of equipment..
First most ecavators are made in Japan or a few are made in Belguim. (none in good ol' US) If you are working with Mini excavators try to get a zero tailswing model.. John Deere sells a nice one. their Mini line is small enough to drive thru an office doorway or large enough to dig out a basement efficently.
The Loader/backhoe is at best a compromise piece of equipment .. It's bulky and doesn't do either job particulary well. Again John Deere seems to Have a slight edge over Cat and Case (I don't sell any of that equipment anymore so I don't have an axe to grind) The price on an apples to apples deal should be within pennies so in the end you pays your money annd takes your pick.. I will editoralise and say that Cat is now totallly dependant on the service deptment to show a profit so they tend to need a little more maintinance then the next brand..
Deal with an equipment dealer for rentals, they tend to be cheaper and have newer equipment . Plus most have rent to own deals where they apply the rent towards the purchase on equipment . It's a way to get into equipment ownership with nothing down and find out if you have the market for your skills without risking any capital..
Rental houses make their profit from rentals so they aren't real interested in selling off good equipment. Where dealers have financing and all sorts of programs to help a new operorator get started..
Used ground engaging equipment depreciates dramatically. Skid steers, loaderbackhoes and anything that digs cost a lot to maintain.. often the needed maintinace is delayed hoping to sell the equipment just before the expensive bill comes due.. Without a ton of experiance in this area you can really take a bath.. some items like the swing bearings on excavators are so expensive to repair that the condition of them can change the value of equipment by tens of thousands of dollars.
Never buy at equipment auctions without a really good equipment mechanic there to check out the equipment. I've seen really silly prices paid because some contractor had a project ready to start and needed that piece of equipment. Prices above what a dealer with a warrantee and financing would dream of asking..
I once saw a used Lull that I felt was worth $25,000 retail sell for $40,000. In the end the contractor that bought it traded in to us to get a new one and was given $15,000 for it because it needed hub work that evan I missed on my inspection.. (that was after he spent over $15,000 doing work that I saw it needed)
That is all real good info.
BTW, the mini that rented was an IHC from a local "rent all". If remember the labels it was made in Italy, with a Japense engine. It was in very good condition except for a slight amount of play in the swing.
But then to finish up I got a Teramite for the bucket to move some gravel and leveling. It had a backhoe on it, but I never touched it except to keep raising it. It had a leaking valve. Not to mention poor brakes, rust in the gas tank, bad ignition switch and in general a POS.
>But then to finish up I got a Teramite
I hear ya on those worthless Teramites. Had one of them for a day and just about ruined my knee from the pressure needed to hold the accelerator pedal down. Practically had to get out and push it up the driveway. Only plus was that DW would play around on that one, whereas she wouldn't on the adult-model backhoes.
actually there are a lot of manufactorers now coming out with Mini's Polish, Chineese Italian, Brazilian, Korean. etc. they tend to use the Kubota engine or a knock off of the Kubota.
I get magazines with the latest offerings, and realize that some poor schmuck is gonna buy one of those only to find out that when the parts needed to keep it operating aren't available anymore he'll spend a lot of down time while some generic part is adapted to work..sorta..
Hey Frenchy -
What do ya think about writing a whole thread about this stuff? You obviously have a lot of background in construction equipment. How about compiling it into a "used equipment primer", or something like that.
Something along the lines of the Floor Vibration thread I did.
I would think it would be a valuable reference. Might even be worth an article for the magazine? Babies are such a nice way to start people. [Don Herold]
I offered to do that a while back but there didn't seem to be a lot of interest..
Love to talk about the subject though so I'll gladly answer any questions..
Heck maybe we can start to dis, yellow, green, and mustard, (just kidding.. )
all these countries and you didn't mention the U.K. Are you familiar with any machines made in england? JCB in particular.
Our local rental house sold out to United Rentals a year or so ago and started offering JCB equipment. The guys that use full-sized machines all the time don't think much of it--no balls, no smoothness, and low on the 'robustness' scale. (I'm only reporting what I was told; I run rental Kubota's relatively often and have run some Deere stuff, but never the JCBs.)
A couple of comments for WAHD--you will find that the smaller (hence less expensive) machines tend to have jerky arm action, and you will think it's your lack of experience causing the machine to buck every time you move the arm or the bucket. That will be partly true, certainly for the first few hours. But a large part of the jerkiness is due to cheap hydraulic controls on the smaller machines. If you were to try out full-size, professional quality machine of the same type, you'd be amazed how much more smoothly you could handle the bucket.
2. Be careful swinging a loaded bucket, either on a backhoe or on an excavator. You can knock the machine over faster than you can believe. An inexperienced operator is almost certain to panic when something starts to go wrong, and this usually causes his arms to do one of two things: either he'll yank both levers full-bore back towards him, or he'll push them full-bore away. The results are usually exactly the opposite of what he wanted to happen. If you can force yourself to let go of the control levers before the machine passes the point of no return, you might have a better chance of it settling back on its feet. All depends on the situation, of course....
I speak from (embarrassing) experience. Worse, when I flipped the thing, it landed right on its side in 12" of really sloppy mud.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
very familar..
JCB simply has the reputation of a lite duty type machine.. while they are very common in England and there is some acceptance in Europe. Here in Minnesota the local dealer has changed hands 4 times in the twelve years I've been selling that sort of equipment..
I can almost predict the progression.. The local dealer is sold a few machines on a dramatic reduction in price over normal with the idea of going out and getting market share. Setting unsustainably low prices the dealer makes a few sales (If you make something cheap enough there is always a fool out there willing to buy) he then reorders and finds out the real price is similar to CAT/John Deere/ Case etc. Without a price advantage his sales slow and then stop.. The factory tries to get the dealer to reorder and failing that they then switch dealers.. and so it goes..
The history of brief dealership involvement is frustrationing for the customer who needs long term support to be profitable. Sure... I can get that part, I don't have it on the shelf but I'll order it and if you want it overnighted you'll have to pay the delivery charges..
JCB seems to standarize on very high level of options and when they are included in the price like that it really makes them seem attractive.. The little things seem to fail is the most annoying trait I hear about them..
It uses a Perkins engine (perka-piller when used in Catapillers) which in the northern states is a hit or miss deal. Because of the design of the cylinder head you cannot use either or you will blow the head gasket and the warrentee is void. It states that very clearly in the manual.
On cold mornings hope that the guys remembered to plug in the block heater because the preheat chamber draws enough currant that anything less than a battery in perfect shape will probably not start without the block heater plugged in.
It's too bad, I'm an anglophile. I own two Jaguars and A MGTD they make wonderful toys but not very good transportation.. Same with their heavy equipment..IMHO
Yeah, I always have to laugh when I go to an auction and see someone pay 20% or more over list price for a well used piece of equipment.
Around here there are a lot of Case 580 backhoes at auction and I see them on a lot of road construction and other construction projects. The prices seem to start around $12,000 +/- with the year making some, but not a lot of difference.
Kubota tractors with the small backhoes seem to go for a premium here in the Portland, OR area. Not uncommon to see a used small Kubota go for more than a Case 580 (and way more than a small used excavator) when they both seem to be in comparable condition. The Kubotas usually have a dedicated mount hoe so it is a real hassle to ever use them as a 3-point tractor. Using a backhoe on a 3pt mount can reportedly put some fairly severe strain on it under certain conditions - not recommded for really heavy use.
I am thinking about getting a small excavator to play with as I build my cabin. A small IHI 15JX that appeared well used but also appeared to be in pretty good shape recently went for $4800, which is several grand less than I had seen anything else that size go for. Probably should have grabbed it.
In addition to what you listed, something to watch out for on the small excavators is the rubber treads. The treads can sometimes get pretty chewed up and the replacement tread prices I have seen are several thousand bucks.
In my case, I don't mind doing some work on what I buy as wrenching is my form of personal recreation (therapy?).
be very careful buying excavators.. swing bearings require virtually a total disassembley to replace and aren't cheap.
In addition the hydrualic connections to the drive motors can leak if worn and wow are they tough to replace..
luckily the engines run well long after the rest of it is junk.. Whenever buying a used excavator pay an experianced mechanic to check it out.. Hire him from the dealer to go over it.. Do not try to judge yourself.. kind of like self diagnosing cancer, with out the proper training..
Compact excavators are JUNK. I'm spoiled a little bit, our smallest excavators are CAT 345's.. but I rented one of the compact bobcats and was severely disappointed at how underpowered it is. The pivot in the arm is nice, you can dig right up on a building foundation with one, but wow - I can dig faster by hand with a shovel. Honestly. That thing couldn't do anything.
remodeler
Bill before you judge all compact excavators by BobCat try the John Deere offerings.. serious machines.. great power.. Zero tail swing so you can work right against a building and still get a clean trench.
Cat Makes some compact mini's (actually they buy them) but I'm not very impressed with 'em. They aren't a serious market force yet and the history has been very spotty (to be kind)
Hitachi makes a wonderful mini that is worthy of a decent look too.
Interesting.
I don't do more than mount up for a few hours every year. Everybody is buying the things so they seem to be growing like weeds. Easy to rent or borrow one.
Almost every machine I see is a Deere or a Hitachi. Lot of Ford tractors with hoes and buckets too..
Excellence is its own reward!
Ford is an interesting choice.. In a side by side comparision the Ford always seems to come out last, yet they have a significant market share considering they aren't evan represented in several major markets..
I frequently see them on state bid lists because they make an effort to price themselves cheaper then the competition.. That only works when Cat or Deere (and once in a blue moon Case) either don't compete, (usually when they offer other incentives like low/zero interest programs) Any of the big boys can and will win any bid they want..
For years the local Cat dealer has won all the bids for road graders simply by coming up with a lease plan that the airport/ cities/counties can't pass up.. It's underwritten by the factory and any competeive dealer trying to get under the Cat deal will lose money big time..
Cat makes their profit on the back end of the lease.
When I sold for Clark We often sold thirty/ forty /fifty thousand dollar pieces of equipment to national accounts for fifty dollars over a deeply discounted cost.. that fifty dollars was split between the local dealer and the servicing dealer..
The guys who buy one or two pieces of equipment a year normally paid as much as 50% more for that same equipment.. (the rich get richer...)
Again the Clark factory made up the loss on the back end of the lease..
National accounts were smart enough to know the service life of equipment and sold just prior to the need for heavy maintinance.. The smaller user ( who bought used) wound up paying the profit on the equipment.. As a National/ major accounts manager it was my job to keep the big accounts informed as to when to sell off their equipment.
The interesting bit about selling equipment is that In over 25 years of selling I don't think I've ever worked where the sales dept. made money.. ususally we have to discount things just above our cost to be competetive.. The profit side of the business comes from parts/service /and rentals.. Rentals especially.
The weekend is over. My first backhoe experiences have been well worth the time and money.
The equipment was a John Deere 310E w/ an 18" Bucket, wobble stick controls.
Scott, my instructor offered about 10 minutes of instruction and then served as a spotter.
I started out by just maneuvering the arm without digging, left, right, up, down. I was surprised at how fast I was able to get a feel for the operation.
After a little practice in the dirt Scott showed me how to move the backhoe without turning around and "driving" it, but by using the arm to push the machine backward, or would that be forward? Either way. He also instructed me about the importance of the positioning of the main pivot. How the arm always digs in a straight line toward that pivot. After some more practice I was able to reposition the pivot by using the arm.
Some more advise to add to the previous list would be:
Until the operator is good enough at footings to cut them clean, use compacted gravel to level the footings, its better then dirt and much less expensive than concrete.
4 wheel drive backhoes are not necessary in most cases. With a loader in the front and an arm in rear, you should be able to get yourself out of most any place. Can I get a ruling on this? Anyone?
As mentioned after the first list, 1/4 to 1/2 throttle should do it most of the time.
I would like to thank everyone for their participation in this thread.
It has certainly been of value to me, and who knows, maybe a lurker or two have benefited along the way. Hopefully some day I can repay the favor.
WAHDView Image
4 wheel drive backhoes are not necessary in most cases. With a loader in the front and an arm in rear, you should be able to get yourself out of most any place. Can I get a ruling on this? Anyone?
See attachments for "Ruling" on subject.
SamTSleepless in Columbia. Diurnal rhythm? What songs did they do?
The guy in white coveralls must work for the public works department.
The operator musta wanted into the rail car really bad. Wonder how many tries untill he got right.
I think I can do that!
Well maybe not.......
WAHDView Image
I LOVED those pix.
4wd made a difference on a steep driveway, if I recall. As much up and down as we did, didn't want to use the arm and bucket.
I got one into a soft spot once and was able to crab walk it out even tho it was buried to both axles. There was a scary moment or two though.
And just like with the trucks - 4WD is not all that it's cracked up to be. It just gives the driver all the confidence he needs to get REALLY stuck good!.
Excellence is its own reward!
I got to operate a Cat D6 dozer last Saturday, my first time on a dozer. I've tried using the bucket on a backhoe to grade and some guys are pretty good at it.
The dozer is the short-end of mass equipment, probably around 50k lbs and a 10' blade. It was nearly new and all the controls worked smooth and well. I was in an area with 2' cuts so I could practice digging the blade in deep.
conclusion: there is a whole lot of skill to that operator position.
remodeler
"The equipment was a John Deere 310E"
Couldn't come up with a real one, huh ???
"4 wheel drive backhoes are not necessary in most cases"
I'm not sure I agree with that. Granted, you can almost always push yourself around with the bucket or hoe. But if you get one kinda laying over on it's side, that complicates things considerably. Put the bucket down and the thing will just lean farther. Sometimes the mud is so slick it's hard to get a bite on anything.
Also - If you're just driving from one place to another on a muddy site, the front wheel assist makes it much easier. Steering is much easier in muddy spots also. Those are my principals, if you don't like them...... I have others." [Groucho Marx]
4wd is more handy then you think. Like BH said, in muddy conditions it not only helps you move but can also let you steer better in slippery conditions.
If youre working the F-E loader and moving or removing dirt into or out of big piles the extra traction helps. I can tell a difference between a 2wd and 4wd when working a f-e loader.
Is 4wd required? No, but it is sure a saver when you need it. But if all youre ever going to use is the back hoe portion and hardly ever the f-e loader you can get away with a 2wd
I agree with Boss Hog 4Wd is Damn handy to have if operating in Mud or Snow..
4 wheel drive isn't just better in slick conditions, but if it's steep. My folks last house was in the mountains. About a 40% grade on the driveway. A 2 wheel drive didn't do nearly as well, as it'd spin some going uphill. Then it rained, and it was a challenge to just get it up the driveway with an empty bucket. A 4 wheel drive would've done a lot better.
the new 4WD and 4 wheel steer loader backhoes take some of the sting out of the size of most loader backhoes..
Not every job needs all of that but the few times it's needed it's really needed..
Skill handling a back hoe of whatever type is important.. Around here you can sometimes dig your footings without any forms.. We have a lot of heavy clay and I've seen trenches that are nice and straight and level that the concrete was poured in and leveled off. then a day or so later the soil adjacent to the footings were removed and gravel poured into place to provide the drainage required...
>>the new 4WD and 4 wheel steer loader backhoes take some of the sting out of the size of most loader backhoes..
Do you mean they're smaller now?
I'd personally like an excuse to play on a backhoe for a day or so. They're a lot of fun to operate, though it'd get real old if doing it all the time. Been several years since I ran one, and then not much.
I've done enough off roading to really appreciate 4 wheel drive. It's amazing how quickly a 2 wheel drive pickup will get squirrly and start fishtailing around on even a slight incline if it's slippery. Whereas the same situation with 4 wheel drive has no pucker factor whatsoever. Of course, if you get overconfident, then 4 wheel drive just allows you to get seriously stuck.
It'd seem this would be much more important with digging equipment. Though probably of little signifigance on dry flat ground.
Same debate with 4 wheel ATV's. Some swear 4 wheel drive is essential, others think it's just a needless extra expense. Depends on usage. The guys I know who say it's essential do a lot of serious climbing of sand dunes, and up mountains that are muddy or with lots of loose rocks. Guy who thinks it's a waste of money drives mostly on desert roads where 4 wheel doesn't add much. Still, were I to buy one, I'd prefer that extra capability, even if it costs more.
Billy,
the four wheel steer loader backhoes are just as long (especially with the new "E" sticks) but their turn radius is dramatically reduced and with the ability to crab steer able to achieve levels of manuverablity previously never achieved..
Now I see what you were saying. Sound like fun toys. You just deal forklifts now, so you don't sell this type of stuff anymore, right.
I have too many buddies who are still doing it to ever lose touch.. Since there is usually a referal fee paid I keep my ear to the ground for whatever pops up..
My last deal was a 50 ton crane.. so yes I just sell forklifts but no, I sell whatever I can find a customer for..
Now cranes are a serious toy to play with!
Now, I could get excited about playing with a crane. I imagine a salesman would be willing to pay a pretty good referal fee for selling a 50 ton crane.
Remember that Tool Time episode where Tim dropped a beam on his 57 Chevy? Find me a crane to play with, and I promise not to do that.
when I sold them for the Cat dealer I actually had a 30 ton crane as a demo.. I took it home right after a storm came thru and used it to lift the trees out of my yard..
Actually the profit in a 50 ton crane tends to be very modest.. when buying those everyone goes on the internet and shops. The price structure is so tight that large crane companies can buy cranes cheap enough to sell them at their cost 5 years after they buy them..
It's gotten much worse since Terex bought up most of the smaller crane companies.. Terex has this tiered pricing structure that makes it very tough for a small dealer to sell cranes.. At least Grove kept public prices for new cranes out of the magazines.. At one time you could sell a crane at a loss and still have the big crane companies offer it cheaper..
The average dealer works hard to make 5%, sometimes figuring everything in they may only make 1 or 2 %.
Interesting fact about Cranes..
Moble cranes (NOT, truck mounted cranes) are not considered motor vehicles.. thus they have no license.. Since they have no license, technically your 13 year old daughter could drive one down the highway..
Can you see a 12 year old driving one of those 200 ton cranes down the street???
(gives me a giggle just thinking of the poor cop trying to charge the kid with something)
The crane loophole you speak of reminds me of the stories of kids driving their dates around in a tractor. As no license is required to drive a tractor, and most farm kids are very good at it. I do know one kid who often hooked up the trailer to a tractor and drove into town to pick up stuff for dad. It was a small town, and while it took him awhile to do, it was legal, and saved dad a trip in the pickup.
Of course, he could drive just about anything by the time he was 12 or so. Got lots of practice driving stuff around the farm.
As a civil engineering officer in the Air Force in the 60s I was sent to operators school on all of the equipment for a Red Horse Squadron. For a month I was in hog heaven playing with AC 745 F/E, loaders, scrapers, TD-24s and backhoes. Never got to touch the controls much after that always a supervisor, main reason for the course was so we could spot idiots. I have rented backhoes several times tho. One thing that did stick with me on backhoes:
Set the engine at about 1/4 to 1/2 throttle. You don't need the full power and the jerkiness of swinging and lifting will be less and you will be easier on the machine.
I think you've gotten good advice from all around.
I rent backhoes and skid loaders from time to time and I usually feel like I get back to decent proficiency in an hour on the skid steer and in few hours on the hoe.
One more word of caution: At least until you feel completely comfortable with the machine, and preferably always, have someone else on site when you are running the machine! The other person can keep kids, neighbors, etc. from walking up to the danger zone and can also be there if you get into some sort of trouble.
Rent and play!
Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
Yep, lots of good advice here. My first time was digging a full basement. The owner was an experimental, hands on kind of guy, and he figured we'd save money with me running the thing at my hourly, plus the rental. The first day, I thought it was a lost cause. I had a hell of a time, but it was fun to get used to it. Next day, I got the hang of some of the motions/controls and started flinging dirt. Since then, it's been a matter of refinement, just getting smoother and knowing where to set up, where to pile the dirt, etc.
PS- wet sand is really darn heavy! If you have a full bucket and swing it out low and wide, you can tip right over. Remember about leverage and centrifugal force, gravity and all that stuff. Don't panic if you get tippy, and if you lose it just hang on. You can probably right yourself with the bucket if something bad happens, but it's obviously best to try and prevent that.
I was amazed at how close to the hole a lot of operators work. I ended up pretty close sometimes too, but it was a little nerve wracking.
Have fun. It is fun, when safe and productive.
This is how a friend learned.
Had a few acres out back of his house. Knew from previous surveys that there were no utilities anywhere near. Called up the local equipment rental company and arranged for delivery of a full sized tractor/ backhoe/ loader late Friday. When they asked if he needed an operator he said he had one.
He then worked the machine all weekend and had plenty of time to test all the capabilities. The only real safety precaution he took was wearing the seatbelt and making sure the ignition safety interlock was firmly clipped to his belt. If he fell out the machine would stop.
The up side was that he was fairly proficient, and not a little hung over, come Monday morning. He swept the dirt of the horizontal surfaces and hosed off the blood and puke so everything looked up and up when the company came for it Monday noon. The rental company only charged him for a single day. About $90 including the delivery and pick up.
Renting and practicing with a backhoe sounds great. Wish I could do it. They're tearing up my street this summer, a five month project, the backhoes they're using are the huge and way out of my league. The college kids took the front-end loader for an entertaining joyride before they left for the summer. Surprisingly for college kids they couldn't get it up, the bucket I mean. They scraped it up and down the block.
Just a word of caution, a man in my previous township was excavating for the foundation of his new house when his backhoe overturned into the pit. He was crushed and killed by the backhoe I assume. I actually drove by as the "first responders" got to the scene, (I was one myself at the time). Be careful not to undermine the site in which you are working on top of and don't pop the clutch in the wrong gear. This guy was a farmer who worked with tractors his entire life. (not kidding, he was probably twelve when he started plowing fields). Bad things happen to the best of us. Be prepared, sober, attentive, and have a good plan.
The resale value of industrial equipment is fairly good. If your a builder owning backhoes or bulldozers is a reasonably good investment. (especially if you're renting regularly).
Good diggin' and good health!
Dave
If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it is it still lumber?
Yeah, safety first. Lots bad can happen. Scares you but good the first time you start tipping. The bouncy tires take getting used to. You know you're getting ok at it when you can reposition yourself by lifting the whole front end with the bucket--tires off the ground--and swinging the arm so that you move and not the bucket. It's possible to cross ditches (or footers) that way if you're good.
As it turns out, I was able to contact and cut a deal with an acquaintance who has both land and operators knowledge. The massacre of his property is set for this Saturday and probably Sunday.
This is what I understand so far:
-30 Degree driveways add to the pucker factor.
-Set the outriggers before using the bucket.
-Be aware of power lines both above and below.
-Get at least some instruction.
-It's like playing chess.
-Cat offers classes.
-100' an hour is fast.
-Wobble sticks are easier.
-No slopes or hills for beginners.
-Operators school is a waste of money.
-Beware of dirt hacks.
-Practice, Practice, Practice
-Its great fun.
-Operating near the building can add to the scope of work.
-Beware of the swing when turning.
-Excavators are better than backhoes when digging footings.
-Operate with a spotter.
-Watch for a low heavy swing the load can change the center of gravity.
-If I lose it, just hang on.
-Hose off the blood and puke before returning the machine.
-Be cognizant of machine stability.
-Accidents can have fatal consequences.
-Heavy equipment retains favorable resale value.
-A sober operator is a happy operator.
I thank you all for taking the time to share your experiences and hard earned knowledge. I plan to put it all to good use.
WAHDView Image
from my experience in older machinery is you can get it many times for a good price. But caveat emptor when it comes time to fix your machinery. Older machines can be a pain to fix sometimes costing equal to or more then you purchased your machinery.... YOull either become a hydraulic/diesel mechanic or pay dearly for a good one.
My friends, business associates and other aquaintences all concur that in most times its best to buy a new machine, when you cant get your accountant to write it off any longer, trade it in for a new one. Remember the bank doesnt care if its broken down waiting for repairs or between jobs they still want their interest and capital...
Oh yea, dont take short huge deep scoops, shallow long light scoops are more accurate and give better results. Dont get in a hurry and dont get close to deep holes or prepare to surf the dirt.. :)
Also, youd be suprised at what a rock can do to dig, youll feel that tractor start to torque to one side...
The massacre of his property is set for this Saturday and probably Sunday.
Please let us know what happens! LOL!
I never got to try out a backhoe but those things can buck like a mule. They are not the workhorses that big loaders are, so don't worry if you don't get a big payload in the scoop each time. Many times a backhoe is used to dig near water or some type of lines and you need a hand crew to help excavate w/out harming the infrastructure.
If you hit a big rock hard, it will "rock" you!
One warning, in case it hasn't been mentioned--if you use headphones to mute the noise, have a few predetermined times to take them off periodically, and let your crew/family know those times.
Sounds like you have the details all worked out.
Since you have plenty of time to prepare - We'll be expecting pictures..............(-:It's not denial. I'm just selective about the reality I accept.
"-Set the outriggers before using the bucket. "
There's a corralary to this rule.
Remember to lift them before you try to move to the next set.
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
I went out in the middle of a pasture at our farm and started playing. Took about 10 minutes to get the feel and memorize the controls. I only get out ther about 5 time a year now and I still have the feel. We have a bulldozer now, older with manual clutches and brakes. Now that is a hard peice of equipment to operate but man you can really have some fun. I always feel the best thing is hands on experience. Just avoid utilities and do some damage. Have fun.
not relevent to your training, but I'd thought I'd share something I've observed over the years.
O.k, now you can push some dirt around with a machine, have confidance, and splurge for a machine, perhaps a skidsteer with a few attachments.Don't forget the trailer, expenses to keep it roadworthy, etc. (hell, you may even need a CHEVY 2500 to pull it)Now, you may or may not take on a few more of those concrete jobs you wanted. Lets say you do seek out more work, because of the payments, that nice sunny day you want to break ground, you find youself having to attend mandatory pre-bid job meetings instead. So, you hand over the machine to an operator you just hired. (which means, you have to take on even more work to justify his position).
then there's materials you need, such as gravel, topsoil, sure, suppliers can deliver, but it would be nice to have your own little dump truck, so you can send someone for the materials and have it when you want it,(besides, there's those small city jobs that generate just a little bit of trash, not enough for a 30 yrd container,(having dump truck capabilities will make you very competitive) hopefully, this operator has a "driver's liscense???" no? one too many drunk tickets? Now you've hired a truck driver. Now these two guys are getting to work, doing what there're doing, there's a lot of hand work too, raking gravel etc.....
do you think your operator is going to get offa his "brains?", outa the drivers seat and pick up a shovel?? Yes? get the hell outa dodge. He's to good for that. El diablo(the boss) has a revolving door that truck drivers and machine operators go through, I've seen more of them come and go than carter's got pills. Machine operators that'll try to pick up a penny with the bucket rather than get off the machine and do it manually with a shovel. Truck drivers that'll pull up to the jobsite, and just let the one spanish guy that's riding along load the truck himself.
finally , you've had good luck on putting together a labor crew, training for the help, such as not to put the tamper fuel in the pardner saw, and assigned each one as a "keeper" of a particular tool, because your tired of buying a rotary hammer every month, did I say you probably had to hire a few more carpenters to build on top of these slabs you just poured,
now you have to expand you office, because you can't run all this yourself, frame out another office, hire a project manager, another computer etc, but there'se not enough work for him/her......
so you take on even more work, which means more ladders etc..
did I exagerate?
maybe I left a few things out.
Edited 6/18/2003 5:54:22 PM ET by panama red
Big Red,
Believe it or not, there is a method to the madness.
WAHDView Image
By the way, WAHD, I just read about a lawsuit that soon-to-be-guv Ahnnold S. (along with a couple of others) is bringing against Fry's Electronics for showing his (their) picture on the TV screens of the TVs they are advertising for sale. I assume your use of his pic (and pecs) have all the appropriate releases...
If I were making money from it, it would be a horse of a different color.
WAHDView Image
http://www.menzimuck.com/
Check it out!!
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
Thats a pretty wild looking piece of equipment! I better start with something a little less aggressive.
WAHDView Image
Here is a link to a web site with old construction equipment,thought you guys might enjoy looking at the neat pictures..
http://www.nesys.org/HCEA/index.html
ToolDoc
Do it the way I did. I rented a large 4 wheel drive John Deer back hoe with a 7' bucket to remove several tree stumps and dig a full basement. The guy that delivered it gave me a 60 second instruction on how to work it, and I went to work. I didn't make too much progress for the first hour or two, but I had a perfect basement hole two days later.
Just one word of caution ... never use the back hoe bucket without the outriggers in place.
It was fun,
John