After reading the recent article on insulation I am educated and confused. I learned much on all types of insulation but am still confused on what to use. I am from northeastern Michigan and am planing to build in the next year a home on 6 beautiful acres with radiant heat in all floors and now need to know what to recommend to my contractor about insulation. We do live in a very rural area and do not have all the options immediately available and just like every one else on earth we have a tight budget but what do you “pros” recommend. We will be framing with 6″ exterior walls and a poured wall basement that will be a walk out with several windows on two sides. Oh gods of warmth help me to stay warm and in my tight Scottish Budget.
Shawn E. Huston
Replies
At what point will you be tight? now and then spent more than you want in the future? Spend the extra now and then spend less in the future? If its #2 then spray foam lots of link and posts about it.
consider concrete or block to roof line and then six in wall inside block. Put as much insulation as possible. I have R80 in my attic and I,m on the gulf coast
The best employee you can have but you wouldn't want him as a neighbor " He the shifty type"
---"consider concrete or block to roof line and then six in wall inside block"---
I may be misunderstanding this, but I think that you want the mass, here concrete or concrete block, INSIDE, to act as a temperature regulator and insulate it well on the OUTSIDE, to avoid thermal bridging.
Using concrete like that, if no other reasons like structural strength over stick framing (relative) or insect control, seems an expensive way to provide temperature regulation.
"Energy Star" ratings require that your have walls with a less than 15% breach, so try to keep the windows/doors square feet below that.
Do a search for "Energy Star" and you will find charts with recommendations for your climate.
Then, what do I know? More experts on this will chime in soon.:-)
let me clear my principal. Yes when concrete gets cold it will stay cold but against a stick frame house it will stop the wind from seeking throug and with the sun warming the block it will generate heat longer than a stick frame warming in the sun. Plus termites and wind resistance. I think a little of both is better than alot of either
The best employee you can have but you wouldn't want him as a neighbor " He the shifty type"
There is no question at all that Ruby is right and you are not as to the mass (concrete) needing to be on the inside to be effective at temperature moderating. It's been tested and proven by the people who write the nation's Model Energy Code. Please don't promote exterior block as an effective wall arrangement with regards to insulation. The proper argument isn't masonry v frame, it's mass to the inside v mass to the outside, and for energy, mass to the inside will win every day.
<The proper argument isn't masonry v frame, it's mass to the inside v mass to the <outside, and for energy, mass to the inside will win every day.
Interesting comment, as my house is brick outside,1/2 thickness cinder block in the middle, and veneer coat plaster furred out over the block. Wonder where that comes out on the "goodness" (or badness, since there is no other insulation) scale? I am not trying to be a SA , just trying to learn....Thanks.
Bud
With no insulation...eek.....wouldn't want to heat or cool it.
I visit an all-concrete building several times a week, and in winter, it seems to relentlessly suck the heat right outta your body, while in summer it's an oven. Soooo hard to control.
My comments are referring to studies by Oak Ridge National Labs comparing Inner Mass, Outer Mass, Mass-Insulation-Mass, and Insulation-Mass-Insulation wall models. Inner Mass out-performed the other models.
Interesting comment, as my house is brick outside,1/2 thickness cinder block in the middle, and veneer coat plaster furred out over the block.
We spent several years in Denver in a structural brick building, plaster inside. I always wanted to cover the outside with insulation and side it. Sold it instead, a better decision. Insulated mass is a lot more comfortable.
Here in Virginia, a lot of the old houses, the more expensive ones, are structural brick. All of them are difficult to heat/cool. Great to look at, but I wouldn't want to live in one. Last one I was around had a monster antique boiler that could consume 2000 gal of fuel oil/month for a 6000 ft house, and that's in Virginia (4166 degree-days).PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You may want to reconsider the 2x6 walls if your on a tight budget.
From what I've learned it adds little to the insulation quality.
Most of the insul should be in you roof. If you insulate the roof rather than the floor joists in the attic use the 1" styrofoam baffles to the ridge vent and soffet vents to allow the air to circulate.
If you insulate the floor I'd recommend blown in cellulose.....it does a better job of filling the cavities and has a higher R factor than fiberglass.
Be warm
andy
My life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Have you considered SIPS structural insulated panels?. I have a couple of freinds who have SIPS in the Dakota's and their heating bills are half of their neighbors. They have been in there homes for over 15 years and from what I have seen they tend to be much quieter, energy efficient, and have a lot less drafts. I have been in there house during bilzzards with 60-70 mph winds and other than looking out of the windows you would never guess that the wind was blowing.
If I was going to build a new house I would go with a poured or wood foundation and SIPS. I would also put in a air exchanger right away since SIPS are rather air tight, you will have water running down the windows during the winter if you don't.
I agree with SIPS. I'd try to talk him into a thin-shell dome, which'll beat all, but I don't talk people into that...they either want it or they don't. SIPS would provide a number of the same advantages, by limiting air infiltration and using a great insulating material.
I'd try to talk him into a thin-shell dome, which'll beat all,
Ahem, I believe you have a little competition there, presuming you have yet to properly bury one of your domes.
There is an underground, above grade house in Saginaw which I don't think is PAHS (Passive Annual Heat Storage) that the owners think is working great. Annual heat storage would be even better. The originator of PAHS built in a 8125 degree-day climate and found an annual interior temperature range of 66*-74* without supplemental heating or cooling.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Wow I need to ask on Saturdays in the future all of you are on-line today. Thanks for all the recommendations. I have some questions. First I have thought a lot in the past about SIP's and do have one person in town that builds them and I have not been impressed with his work. Considering that am confident in my builder who builds 6" stud walls over a poured basement wall, what do you feel is the best insulation for this. Initially I was thinking that we would have fiberglass bat insulation in the walls with 1" of Styrofoam boards on the exterior behind my siding which will be T 1-11 and then sheet rock on the walls. The attic space would be as much blown in fiberglass as possible. The basement I was planing on a 2x4 wall inside the wall with bat insulation in it and sheet rock. The article in this months magazine made me think that I should look at cellulose more for walls and attic. What is everyone's feeling. I have looked also into ICF's and have not written them off but they are not something that this contractor deals with and so far I feel very comfortable with his work and his interest in my ideas. By the way I am much more "cost effective" then "cheap". I want to do it right the first time but also don't want to bankrupt myself.
Sh
If someone locally sprays urethane foam, you can have them spray an inch ($0.70/sq ft) or two ($0.70 + 0.50/sq ft) in each 2x6 bay. Then fill the with R-11 FG batting. The FG is cheap. The urethane not only has high R-vlaue per inch but is very effective at sealing the house. It also helps reduce sound transmission. David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
I like the suggestion of some one here on BT (Mike Smith or Piffin, probably) to use a 2x4 wall frame with cellulose insulation, then horizontal 2x2 furring on the inside with 1-1/2" rigid foam between the furring. Since the foam is a vapor barrier, you want it on the inside. This is a low-tech system that anyone can apply. Running the foam horizontally gives a higher over-all R-value, because you don't have continuous wood as you'd have with 2x6's to conduct heat out of the house.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
The construction details on the wall with the horizontal furring strips was by Mike Smith at Breaktime discussion 37618.1 on "whatever happenned to 6 inch walls"
He gave it some kind of a funny name, I think it was something about his mooning the wall every time he finished one...
Edited 12/23/2003 9:11:33 PM ET by CaseyR
You said "with 1" of Styrofoam boards on the exterior ". If you go that route, there are basically 3 kinds of foam sheathing: expanded (EPS) and extruded (XPS) polystyrene and polyisocyanurate: good better, and best. I believe most people use the extruded because performs better than the expanded for the same thickness. The polyisocyanurate is the best, but gets kind of pricey. Try to get your builder to seal the seams on the sheathing.
I think you will want some gap between the T1-11 siding and the sheathing, since the sheathing is also a vapor barrier and could have condensation build up on it.
Also, check out the availability of cellulose insulation in your area. The problem with fiberglass is that at very cold temperatures, it looses much of it's insulative qualities. Not a big deal where I live since it doesn't get that cold here, but I don't live in northern Michigan... Burrrrrrrrrr!!! :^) Also, cellulose stops air movement better than FG. I think it covered that stuff in that FHB article didn't it?
A few other thoughts is that you want rigid foam insulation under your whole slab. If you do go with the 2x6 walls, you want insulated headers, which is a sandwich of 2 2x10s (or whatever) with rigid foam in the middle. You also want your wall framing to include energy corners and wall Ts. Look at this web page: http://www.energy.state.or.us/code/respub/res10.pdf Assuming the house roof is to be framed with trusses, you want raised heel trusses, which allows for more insulation over top of your walls.Matt
Tom, our stuff isn't mutually exclusive. I was thinking of the other more traditional things being mentioned. I like the theory of yours. Putting the two things we like together would be a dynamic combo. If I get a client with the budget, site, and interest, I will certainly suggest that it be explored.
Tom, our stuff isn't mutually exclusive. I was thinking of the other more traditional things being mentioned.
Absolutely, I knew. <g> And your domes are better (stronger with less material, not to mention more interesting) for burial than what I've done. Only question I'd have is: can you build one without the insulation directly over the concrete? (At least that's my understanding of Monolithic, first insulation and then concrete inside.) For PAHS, that's the wrong place for the insulation. Needs to be out a couple of feet, with dirt underneath next to the concrete.
The underground house in Saginaw looked very peculiar, not unlike one of your domes with a pile of dirt over it, sitting in a flat-as-a-pancake surrounding, with carefully manicured grass like the Teletubbies. The only hill anywhere around. Wasn't anybody home when I was there so I didn't get inside. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Abe I have more than half my framing done so....
I do have to say that I'm really amazed at how efficient the heat is in my circa:1680 house with all the open walls and single pane glass during my renovations....REALLY AMAZED!
My heating bills aren't bad at all.....no storm windows.....areas open outside with just some tempo styrofoam boards I put up,,,no storm doors and theyre super thin doors to begin with.
I have a feeling its the insul in the attic and blown in cellulose in the plaster walls.....All I can say is my heating bills really arent bad.
Wait'll I tighten things up!
I may need to put a dome poolhouse up soon....Bucky was "always" my man! Might look funny against such an old house but hey,,,,nothin' is set in stone.....lol
Be warm
andyMy life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
"Most of the insul should be in you roof. If you insulate the roof rather than the floor joists in the attic use the 1" styrofoam baffles to the ridge vent and soffet vents to allow the air to circulate."
Andy,
Very similar to the system I used, though I had to make my own baffles as the rafters were upwards of 5" out of parallel.
Basically went with (on a 2 x 6 rafter roof, cape) 1" airspace, 1" extruded ridged foam(R5), R13 fiberglass, 3/4" foilfaced polyisocyanurate foamboard over everything (at the time I think that was R7.4, and made for a good thermal break) then 5/8" drywall.
Bottom line, heating costs for 1920's 2400 sq. ft. home in Wisconsin high atop a hill (can we say really windy and cold), never had a heating bill over $200/month and usually more like $80., and we keep the house at 75F.
BTW, the $200 occurred the month we hit -38F with 40MPH+ winds. Something like -85F wind chill.
Jon
See if there any builders in your area that will build to energy star standards. If not, see if you can get a hold of the Energy Star standards for your area. The Energy Star program promotes "system thinking" so that various upgrades work in concert to produce an efficient home.
There is more to be concerned about than just insulation when building a healthy and fuel efficient home. Just as important is construction techniques that promote proper air sealing and reduce thermal bridging (transfer) through the building envelope. This includes minimum standards for windows (U value) and possibly doors. Thicker exterior wall sheathing can help with the thermal transfer too.
Of equal importance is that your HVAC system be installed to operate at peak efficiency. Since you are doing radiant heat I would think that would be a good start, but I'm sure there are installation details that will effect your heat bill. (Radiant heat is very rare in the south where I live so I have no information in this area)
So, the high points are framing, insulation & HVAC. Still, there are things that can be done by any number of the trades that will reduce a home's energy efficiency. For example, if the electrician feels he needs to install your circuit breaker panel on an exterior wall, you now have a cold spot that has 3" less insulation.... Ceiling lights can cause air and thermal leaks too...There are a lot of things to think about. Moisture control has to be effectively dealt with too.
Start by reading as much as you can about energy efficient construction and visit houses under construction in your area to find out what accepted local practices are. Then you can identify weaknesses and make a plan.
Do you really mean CHEAP or do you really mean cost effective?
Cheap would be something like using corn husks.
More than picking among a huge variety of insulation and insulation systems, your task is simpler. Among the local contractors who have good reverences, what do they have experience installing?
Someone who is skilled at installing the third best system is a better choice than someone else's first time using a new material. And what is their attention to detail? Are you going to task them (and fund them) to take their time and tighten up the whole thing (taping the VB well, sealing the penetrations, the mudsill, etc)?
People think about fit and finish regarding trim work and built-ins. It also applies to insulation / and especially vapor barriers.
I don't think you need to do anything unusual to get good value in insulation. I built a 2900 square foot home on the Canadian border of New York (USDA zone 4) several years ago. The basement was built with ICFs. The walls were 2 x 6 but with upgraded R21 fiberglass insulation (vs. standard R19 for 2 x 6). The roof trusses had a 15" raised heel, so I got 12" of blown cellulose all the way to the outside walls. Windows were low-e Andersen. No windows faced north; the garage was on the north side, uninsulated and unheated. I heat with a high efficiency natural gas condensing forced air furnace. The water heater is also gas. The thermostat is set to 72°F for evenings, 66° at night, 60° weekdays when I'm at work.
My actual cost to heat the house for one year is $874, using 1111 therms.
I have not done any formal cost-benefit analysis to compare alternative insulation systems, but this is plenty cheap for me.
David gave you my answer on the 2x6 walls, except I would use the higher density R-15 fg with the 2" closed cell foam. R-29 tot. Spray the band joists with 2" as well, and stuff a foot of fg behind it.
Spray 1/2" on attic floor (sheetrock) and then fill with cellulose 12-15".Flow over tops of floor joists to break thermal transmission through the joists. Use IC rated light cans.
Supply dedicated outdoor air to combustion burners, and a dedicated air stream to the clothes dryer, ie., don't burn or exhaust indoor conditioned air where practical. That includes the fireplace, chimney caps, glass doors, outside air.
Seal all penetrations, put a bead of construction caulk between sole plates and decking, sheathing and studs etc.
I think your choice of rfh is the best for getting the most comfort out of each Btu.
It will help if you can design in a double air lock entrance, such as using a mud room before entering the rest of the house, or double door foyer, before entering the main living area. Use insulated doors, good windows, insulated garage door. Consider interior/garage walls to be "exterior walls" when insulating.
The water heater, location, insulation, line lengths need attention as well. Put heat traps on the water heater, insulate the hot lines. Also, I would install a GFX on the most heavily used shower drain line.
I think many pointed out the main point: pay now in known dollars, or pay later in unknown dollars.
Paul
What do you mean by cheap? A little more spent now could mean alot cheaper later. Remember energy costs are going up up up.
Forget fiberglass.
Forget 2 x 6 walls.
Are you scared yet?<g>
Frame with 2x4s.
From there, two options:
1) Run horizontal 2x2 strapping, every 16". This will create a grid on the walls. The drywall gets screwed to the 2x2s. The depth of the 2x4 plus the depth of the 2x2 will give you a total wall depth equal to a 2x6 wall, which will make window and door detailing standard. However, by running a grid, you're setting up a near-complete thermal break to isolate the interior wall from the exterior by not allowing 2x6 studs to run the full thiuckness of the wall. Then pump the walls full of cellulose insulation. Better R-value, but more inportantly, better resistance to air infiltration, better control of water vapor, and better at deadneing sound. A warmer and quieter house.
2) 2x4 framing, then skin the interior with RFBI. Gap the 4' x 8' sheets of foam by about 1/4", then come back and seal the gaps with canned foam. Easy. Then stap the walls with 1-by furring, run horizontally every 16". Screw the drywall to the furring. Pump the walls full of cellulose.
Both methods are "do-able" by builders who build standard stick-frame houses.
No new methods of construction, no new technologies. No great expenses, either.
But with either case, you;ll get a better wall system.
I have read about the wall systems you describe many times here on BT and they sound great to me. Many advantages. However, I've never blown cellulose before (DIY'er) and although it doesn't look like rocket science, I'll bet there is a learning curve, as well as equipment to rent.
I would be curious as to your opinion of an alternative wall system that recently popped into my head for cold climates.
traditional 2x4 exterior wall with unfaced FG batts - 2" rigid foam insulation - traditional 2x4 wall with unfaced FG batts.
Yes, it is thick, bur that's fine with me. I like windowsills
Yes, it is more expensive that traditional 2x6 walls, but only moderately so.
Tossing up the 2nd 2x4 wall doesn't seem like much more work than adding all the strapping + it has some structural value.
About R-32 with complete thermal break between inside and outside + good vapor barrior. Any moisture that works it's way in can easily work its way out either toward the inside or toward the outside.
Biggest advantage may be that the inner 2x4 wall allows completely conventional wiring and sheething without being obsessive about sealing those openings and seams.
Although it may not be your personal favorite, does the system seem sound to you? Or does it seem a little nuts? I haven't done it yet. It's still festering in my mind. Whatever system I use will have to be DIY-friendly. Thanks.
There is indeed a small learning curve to blowing cells properly, but with a bit of thought it's a process that can be handled by anyone with a bit of skill. For DIY, blowers can be rented for $50-$75 a day.
One thing that I personally think deserves a bit of thought is air infiltration vs R-value. Most houses today are leaky. Even new construction. A small bit of attention to the movement of air through the envelope will pay huge dividends down the road. When remodeling, any tightening of the house must be done after moisture handling has been addressed.
I recently gave my thoughts on another thread about FG vs cells. Cells won for myriad reasons. Actual R-value, air, moisture, etc.
To me, in today's typical stick-frame construction, stopping or reducing air movement will provide more comfort than increasing R-value. Why? Because advertised R-values really aren't met if there is convective air movement within the insulation or within the insulated framing bay.
Cells, or a wall of RFBI, will do a superior job of stopping/minimizing air movement.
Insulation needs to be properly installed and detailed to have an effective R-value. It's pretty easy to blow in cells correctly to achieve the stated R-value. It's pretty difficult to install FG correctly to achieve the stated R-value. People just don't do it right, even if they;re trying. And seldom do they try. It's the nature of the product, and the requirement that the insulation be in 100% contact with all six faces of the framing bay. Any gap, any deviation, and the effecacy of FG as an insulator drops. Again, I wrote about that in a previous thread.
So...for your wall, which is 10" thick (0.5+3.5+2+3.5+0.5) but, according to me, has inferior insulation on either side of the foam...I think you can get equivalent performance for less cost and less labor with a thinner wall using cells. Plus you'll squeeze a few extra square feet of living sace out of each room.
Minor point, but in practoce, honestly, it's a lot easier to strap a standing wall than it is to build and raise another 2x4 wall inside and already-framed room.
Double-wall construction was the big rage that received a lot of attention in the early 70s. The idea has a lot going for it. Your system, with the sammiched RFBI is better than a simple offset wall. Hpowever, fpr cold climate I would prefer the foam on the inside fo the wall then sammiched in the middle.
As you wrote, it would also be easier to run electrical on the inside, but you'd still want to seal penetrations through the sole plate that go into the basement, etc.
Wide windowsills? Muy bueno. I like that.
So conclusion? I think your ideas of a thicker wall, in theory, are valid. However, in design, practice and performance, a bit of tweaking may be in order. Again, just my opinion.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'll add it to the mix and continue to let the ideas fester in my mind for a while. I do hate dealing with FG and I may well "invest" in teaching myself to blow cellulose.
As an aside - regarding leaky walls & ceilings - I've always been a little bemused by the fact that this is apparently still much of an issue. While it may be hard (using FG insulation) to completely avoid all convection currents circulating within a wall, it doesn't seem like it should be that difficult to avoid outside air coming inside, except through leaky windows and doors. This seems especially true if you are willing to alter your thinking regarding "standard" construction a bit. For example, in top floor bedrooms you can take great care with ceiling light penetrations and still create an avenue for heat loss. Or you can simply avoid the problem all together by lighting the room with wall sconces. Simple solution.
It always seemed to me that there were three ways of doing things;
1) pick the way that requires a great deal of attention to detail and then do a sloppy job.
2) pick the way that requires a great deal of attention to detail and then spend a lot of time and energy doing it just right.
3) pick the way that does a similar job without great attention to detail.
#2 may be a great way to approach making a fine piece of furniture or cabinetry, but where some human error is inevitable, #3 may be the wisest course.
Happy holidays
nanny.. we were building energy walls since '74... all fiberglass with 6 mil vapor barriers..
but they were pretty bad.. and we were very careful..
a double fiberglass wall is still one huge seive..
our own house is a double wall.. FG 2x4 exterior.. 1" air space... 2x3 interior cellulose... what a bunch of crap.... sure wish i had it to do over.. it would be Mooney wall all the way thru.. and a lot warmer than the expensive wall we have .. which is twice as warm as any 2x6 wall..
one of the galling things about fiberglass walls and minor leaks... if you've been very carefull.. the minor leaks become major points of movement.. the pressure differentials between the interior and exterior WILL find the weak points and move a lot of moist air..... in ... or ..... out..
fiberglass fibers are almost THE perfect condensing surface.. a cold fiber of fiberglass insulation below the dew point will condense the moisture out of the air.. that condensation will form droplets.. the droplets will form rivulets and gravity will bring it to the nearest horizontal surface within your wall surface..
moisture/oxygen/ temperature will all combine to create an ideal rot situation..
none of this happens with dens-pak cells.. but it always happens with fiberglass in cold climate houses...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I am a strong advocate of SIPs. Consider the princple used in a thermos bottle, it's exactly like the princple of a SIP.
Stick building will provide a thermal bridge every 16 inches so at best a stick built anything can only be 80% efficent.. When you consider all of the places where the 2x's are doubled up and more you will wind up with too many places where there is no insulation at all.
It doesn't much matter if it's 2x4's or 2x6's stick built cannot compete against SIPs
I'll concur (is anyone surprised?) I believe dollar for dollar and BTU for BTU there is no better bang for the buck than SIPs.
HOWEVER, if SIPs are not an available option, I find the grid wall described by Tim Mooney, Mike Smith and, in this thread- Mongo, very endearing.
Cellulose is IMHO the best bang for the buck insulation for conventional construction if you rule out both of the affore mentioned methods.
Number one objective is to get it tight. To make it run as efficiently as possible, design the HVAC system for the house to the right size, not overkill, and run the ducts in conditioned space, or at the very least, insulate them thoroughly. Keep can lights and other holes into the attic to a minimum and seal it up tight. Don't over do it on the air exchanges either.
It's the details that make a house energy efficient as much or more than the insulation. If one weak link is left, the whole system is comprimised and the money just keeps going out the window every month.
Oh yea, one last "best bang for the buck" tip... wear out at least one caulking gun at every phase of construction no matter what system you use. Every air leak counts against you. Even the little ones.
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Staying warm for cheap...
Only requires a stick and a ladder.
Throw the stick up on the roof.
Climb the ladder to the roof to retrieve the stick.
Throw stick off roof.
Climb down and retrieve it again.
Throw stick back up on roof.
Retrieve.
Repeat until warm.
Start again at step one, when you begin to get cold again.
Live, Love, Forgive and Forget
quittintime
Indian build small fire, keep warm by sitting close.
White man build large fire, keep warm by carrying wood.
You two are a genius's I should have thought of that before thanks for all your support. Merry Christmas everyone.
SH
No problemo.
We geniuses are here to serve.
; )
Live, Love, Forgive and Forget
quittintime
Sounds like with your walkout basement that much of your basement is living space, or at least heated. Have you builder find a dealer/erector that services your area with the Superior Walls concrete foundation system. They cost more than a formed and poured foundation, but when you factor in the costs to do studwalls and insulation in the basement, you come out maybe even better than even. Do a google on superior walls and see what is happening. Better yet, contact their local reps in either Grand Rapids or Flint and ask to see some of their installations in your area.
Frame walls with 2x4s and do the "mooney wall" thing with horizontal furring and rigid foam in between. Do cellulose in the 2x4 cavities, shear it off flush, then do the furring and sheetfoam.
Make sure your roof structure has plenty of heel height, and either get a good foamer to airchute the eaves and foam the whole thing, or just airchute and foam the eaves, then do blown cellulose and a nice heavy thickness everywhere else.
Think and build in such a way as to eliminate air leaks everywhere. Foamseal all windows and doors, find ways to seal all electrical and plumbing penetrations, and invest in quality windows and doors.
Investigate the ways houses are sealed up by using poly film under the drywall in walls and ceilings, and how those blue plastic boxes are used around all electrical boxes to isolate them from air leaks.
And most of all, ask you builder the same q you asked on this forum, and then write down everything he says, and feed it back to us here for commentary.
Edited 12/26/2003 3:46:54 PM ET by Mr. Micro
I went to the Superior wall site and have a couple of questions. They do not insulate under the wall but I am sure that I should still insulate under the floor correct? What would you recommend for insulation of these walls after they are installed? I saw some pictures that had interior walls of this product, what do you think? Seems pricey to me.
Sh
Yeah, I would put down a 2" layer of rigid foam for the 4' of perimeter that is at the walkout walls. To save money I would not put it elsewhere. None under the walls, of course. You can level up your compacted stone to foam-top elevation, then choke it with a 1" layer of sand over everything, foam and stone, then do your mesh with tied-on pex tubing for heat. Then pour your basement slab.
Around here a poured foundation can be had for 160 to 185 bucks a cubic yard, and a Superior Walls job will command a premium over that, but remember, all the exterior wall studding, and half the insulation, is there when the crew finishes their 4-hour (max) set and finish job, and your builder can cap it with the wood floor deck beginning that afternoon. He won't have any complaints about plumb, level, or square.
With a walkout or finished basement, I wouldn't build any other way than with a Superior Walls type of foundation.
If you are able to work with your builder closely, insist on a true value analysis to determine how this type of foundation can compare with a conventional one. Insist on a true apples-to-apples comparison. Factor in everything, not just foundation-versus-foundation. Talk about labor and materials for wall framing, insulation, typical costs for fixing mistakes, and the costs of time. Remind him that the electrician can readily route wiring through the preformed knockouts in the wall stud-ribs, and to factor in that cost reduction. A foundation that can be completed before the morning coffee break is worth real dollars in cost savings. There might be more dollars there for one that can be done in below-zero temps, as well.
I can't believe that no one has mentioned putting on an extra sweater.
that's the cheapest solution so far.
Hey Kostello that was one of the primary tenets of Jimmy Carter's energy policy
thanks for bringing it up we are adherents in our household!