There seems to be a bit of controversy in our community regarding ice shield application at the fascia/roof juction. It seems that about half of the contractors are running the ice shield down over the face of the fascia by a few inches, and the remainder are attaching an aluminum drip edge first and then applying the ice shield over the roof sheathing and drip edge.
Any thoughts?
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Replies
i'm trying to figure out how the painter's do their job when half the fascia is covered with bityuthene
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That was one of my first questions as well! I presume the painters (if it remains wood vs being clad with aluminum) go in and paint first and then the ice shield, etc. is applied? Everyone I talk with seems to have a different proposal. I would think there would be some kind of industry standard.
Thanks,
Dick
Makes no sense to me to have the I&W run down the fascia. it is not supposed to be exposed to the weather and looks like H3llI run the I&W on the sheathing, to the edge of the fascia, then I put on the metal edge, then I strip it over with vycor, or I then run the tarpaper over the metal and on up the roof.but that's me. I don't do industry standards.
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Thanks! I appreciate your input!
i do it the same way , old man...
ice & water on the eaves , then drip edge , then strip the drip edge in..
did you copy my SOP ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
" did you copy my SOP ?"Ya had to go and leave it laying around during Rhodefest - danged industrial spies! They're everywhere, I tell ya...We used to have to strip in roofs as steep as 12/12 with hot asphlat before I&W was thought of for certain kinds of 'lifetime' roof materials. Try that for fun sometime!
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i picked up stripping-in from Barry.... another slate and hot roof guy....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Is he back on his feet?
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Can you explain "strip in"?
As I described - using 'strips' of Vycor to seal the metal off. a 6" strip can be 3" on the previous I&W and 3" on the metal.In hot roofing for flat BUR roofs, you would cut the tarpaper to 6", 9" and sometimes 12" depending how many strips were required by the specs. Each layer overlapps the previous by a bit to lock down to the original
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not really.... he's in Albany , near his son..
some days are better than othersMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Family is good
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At the eaves, drip edge goes on first, then I&W
At the gables, I&W to the edge of the sheathing, then drip edge
at least 'round here...
Edited 9/12/2005 5:41 pm ET by Brian
That's what I would think, but you would be surprised how many say otherwise!
Thanks for your input!
"At the eaves, drip edge goes on first, then I&WAt the gables, I&W to the edge of the sheathing, then drip edgeat least 'round here..."'round here too, and that's a long way. -jeff
Ice shield goes down just as roofing felt does.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
All you really have to look at is the layering process. Any water that gets behind the shingles doesn't want to be able to make it's way into the building. You wouldn't put shingles on in reverse order. Why would you put drip edge on after the ice and water shield. I guess it makes sense if you were to do this, that you wrap the fascia with the bituthane. Any water that gets forced behind the shingles will run under the drip edge. Ice and water shield is a good adhesive. It will stick fast to the dripedge and the chance of water working it's way under it are nil, is applied correctly. Why anyone would add another material like Vicor over the drip edge and cause a hump in the edge of the roof doesn't make sense to me. We always put on the drip edge on the fascia and up the rakes before the ice and water shield. The ice and water shield is placed and cut about 1/4" back from the edge. Same thing with the felt or shingle underlay. There is one roofer around here that insists on running a double layer of shingles up the rakes, just like a starter strip. You can pick out his roofs a block away because of the hump the extra shingles cause. I'll be darned if I can figure out why he does this but it sure looks awful. Some folks just have to be different.
damn, hammer.. yu must be using mighty thin shingles
we strip our drip edge in and we run soldiers up the rakeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
" Why would you put drip edge on after the ice and water shield."Since your imagination is crippled tonight, let me help you out.We want to get dryed in as soon as possible. That is good for the structure in a heap of ways. So as soon as the plywood is down, we dry in. That starts with the bityuthene, then tarpaper or RooftopgaurdII on up to the ridge.After it is dry, we have a couple weeks to trim it all out with fascia, as the weather lets us, and we can work inside where it is dry when it rains."Why anyone would add another material like Vicor over the drip edge and cause a hump in the edge of the roof doesn't make sense to me."maybe your Vicor is thicker than my Vycor, but there is never any humpo to be seen even before the shingles go on. you've never really used it, have you? it was marketed thin to be used around window flanges without creating a dimensional hump.The process comes from styles of flat roofing when the three ply BUR is installed, then the metal edge, and then a two ply strip on the edge to seal it off berfore graveling.
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A couple of weeks to trim out the fascia? What are you trimming out, the Samoset or some other resort hotel? Haven't you figured out how to dress the gables before you lift them? If you weren't milking it so hard, you wouldn't have to use a Band-Aid. Ever heard of blue tarps? They come in handy for you slow pokes.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Be careful...one mans' "milking" is another mans' unrushed, quality work......
I guess he's never seen a blue tarp take off in the wind
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my jobs are big enough it would take an old fart like you a week to walk around it, let alone get it trimmed out!;)
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Heh! Heh! I guess I'll have to bring my golf cart so I don't get worn out just walking.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hammer1, take it easy on old Piffin. He'd older than dirt and his feelings get hurt easy.
I'm curious what you mean when you say "dress the gables before you lift them"? What exactly do you do before you lift a gable?
Just for sake of calm discussion, I agree with you on at least one point. It seems illogical to put the ice and water shiled down before the drip. Notwithstanding the vycor issue, it just doen't make sense to me.
Piffin and Smitty: why wouldn't you just spend the first five minutes putting the metal drip up first? Do you guys install the roof sheathing before the trusses too ?
blue
well, lessee.. the ice & water was originally created to stop ice dams forming
the first 3' is supposed to get a layer of I&W on top of the sheathing..
that doesn't mean everything except the first 6 ".. it means from the fascia up the roof 36"
if you put the drip edge on first , then the I & W cannot cover the first 6"..
now... here's where quality comes in.. if you apply your I&W, then your drip edge.. then strip in your drip edge.. you've got the best of both worlds
do i think this is how most of the world works.. no..
but then , i get a lot of jobs the 2d time around... after they've already paid someone else to do it their way.. and for the next 4 years they get persistent leaks
we fix leaks... we stop rot.... we backprime our trim.. we do lots of things you don't . and we get paid to do them..
obviously ..you can't get paid to do the things we do.... or can you ?
have you ever tried ?.. you still have the tract house mentality.. i don't begrudge you.. it's how you survive.. i'd have you frame my houses anytime.. but you'd follow my specs.. and i'd pay you for following them
we do LOTS of things you don't .. we do lots of things that lots of other builders don't do either.. but our product is easier and less expensive to maintain.. our paint jobs last longer.. our roofs last longer... our decks last longer..
it's a different mindset , and different marketing...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i'd have you frame my houses anytime.. but you'd follow my specs
If I was roofing for you, and you told me to put the drip over the ice and water, I'd refuse. I don't do things that don't make sense. When I do it my way, the only way water can get trapped between the drip and the wood is if it runs uphill. When you do it your way, you're hoping that you have a perfect seal with your vycor. This has nothing to do with "tract house" mentality.
Actually, I find that rather insulting. I've worked in one "tract" sub and have worked on customs for the vast majority of my career. Just because I'm working on customs, doesn't mean I have to work slow and inefficient.
Piffin's reason at least makes a little sense...there ain't no fascia when he lays his roof sheathing!
Of course, I wouldn't do that either if he, or you told me to do that. I've never sheathed a roof in my life without the fascia on first, and I don't intend to start now. I've seen guys do that, but every one that I've seen was a lot more wavy than I'd accept. The fascia and subfascia has to be on and straight before I'd allow the sheathing to be installed. For me, it's a quality issue.
blue
"I've never sheathed a roof in my life without the fascia on first"
Speaking in general terms, and maybe this is just a regional difference, but I don't know of any luxury custom home builders that would allow the trusses to sit naked while the facia is installed just so the sheeting would overlap more evenly. That just doesn't happen.
~D
I don't know of any luxury custom home builders that would allow the trusses to sit naked while the facia is installed
I'm not sure of which side your taking IdahoDon.
I've never set the trusses before the fascia is done. Around here, we build from the bottom up.
blue
jim.. no insult intended.. obviously you wouldn't frame my houses.. since you wouldn't follow my specs.. or would you?
i bet if we reached an agreement of the minds , which i do with all of my subs, we'd proceed on an agreed method
but i do know that we do a lot of things differently..
and custom has nothing to do with it...
lemme guess... i bet i'd never see a paint brush in your hands while you were running trim Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
jim.. no insult intended.. obviously you wouldn't frame my houses.. since you wouldn't follow my specs.. or would you
Sorry Mike, I probably wouldn't. No offense, but unless you can justify a reason for doing something wrong (I consider it wrong), I won't do it. I'm not a hore. I don't do anything for anyone. In my career, (I'm sure you are the same), I draw the line. If I can't find common ground on what I consider to be common sense, I don't work on your job. It's nothing personal, but for me, it helps me to maintain my sanity. It took a few years for me to understand that I need to fit in where I spend my days, and since that time, I've generally been happy where I build.
Building things is my life, my art and my logic cells don't allow me to work where I don't fit in.
bet i'd never see a paint brush in your hands while you were running trim
Um, generally, I'm not a painter. You might convince me to spray the walls and trim before I swung them, but I'd warn you that the final job would fall below acceptable standards. The only reason I'd do it would be for the novelty, and that would wear off after about two walls.
I do putty all my mistakes as I finish the trim. Does that count for anything? Myself, I use construction adhesive, whatever they ship for the floors. I have on occsion used caulk. It works good and makes me look like I'm a great carpenter when the caulk color matches the wood. In the end, no matter what I use, the ulitimate goal is to have no black cracks when the finish painting is done. In the olden days, the painters fixed all the minor defects in the carpentry workmanship, but those days are long gone.
I might consider painting while I installed, if I was working off scaffolds, but you know we don't do that. I understand that remodeling is a different beast, but the whole point of this discussion is that the metal drip goes on first, then the ice and water shield.
If someone can point me to a manufacturer's site that advocates the drip going over the Ice and Water shield, I'll stand corrected.
blue
http://www.certainteed.com/CertainTeed/Pro/Contractor/Roofing/Installation/Shingles/installationshingle.htm
go to the section on underlayments... and "applying dripedge"
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 9/15/2005 9:39 pm ET by MikeSmith
Mike,I followed your link. I got a list of links to download PDF files of installation instructions.I downloaded the instructions for "Shingle Underlayments and Flintlastic SA Roof Systems"On page 3, number one under "Installation Instructions" it says:"The eaves edge of the underlayment should go OVER the drip edge eaves flashing, but go UNDER the drip edge flashing along the rake."This doesn't seem to be supporting your case (unless I am my usual confused self!!).Edit:OK. Then there is this under Installing Drip Edge:"1. Drip edge must be applied so that the higher pieces will overlap
the lower pieces.2. At the rake, drip edge may be installed under or over WinterGuard.
When drip edge is installed over WinterGuard, the WinterGuard
must cover the top of rake board.3. At the eaves, if there is a chance of snow or ice build-up in the
gutters, install drip edge over WinterGuard. WinterGuard must
cover top of fascia board. In severe ice dam regions, WinterGuard
can be wrapped over the fascia board and, if desired, onto the
soffit. Cover all exposed WinterGuard with drip edge, gutter, wood
or other weather-resistant material to protect it from damage. If
there is no chance of snow or ice build-up in the gutters, install
drip edge under the WinterGuard."That is more supportive of you position!Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
Edited 9/16/2005 12:20 pm ET by RichBeckman
Thanks for the research on that site Rich. Even though Mike was generous to offer the link, I wasn't interested enough to look through it.
I stand corrected. Mike is right. I'm wrong.
Now, I need someone to explain the logic behind all that...or I'll continue to do it my way anyway!
blue
I don'5t put the drip on first because the drip goes over the facia which is not on yet when I place the I&W
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I was totally confused on this point last summer when I did the addition. After my 10th. reading of the Taunton shingling book, I finally came to understand that the drip goes OVER the tarpaper at the eave but UNDER the tarpaper at the rake. Or is it the other way around? Anyhow, I planned to put I&W shield on the entire low-pitch roof, and the book implied that the rule might be different for rubber. The box (Grace Ice and Water) had an 800 number to call for technical assistance, so I thought (AHA) that I would be able to talk to a real roofer. Here's the conversation:
ME: I understand how to install the membrane at the eave, but I'm not sure about how to handle the rake.
TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE: What's a rake?
It turns out that this was not the company (Cambridge, MA) at all but a call center in Chicago, manned by nice ladies reading technical specs off websites.
In the end I put the membrane down first, then the drip.
Don't worry about Piffin, he may be old but he can still sit up and take some nourishment from time to time. Any of us that get up on a high horse can expect another builder to try and knock them off. It's the most fun we get. I'll be trying to bob and weave when it's my turn.I live in an area where there has been a building boom going on for 20 years. The contractors are extremely efficient, most have a new home on the market every thirty days. These aren't tracts of 300 homes, generally a development will have around 20. We look for ways to cut time without sacrificing quality. Re-tracing steps is something we try to avoid. If a house has common gables and trim that isn't overly complicated, we often apply the trim to the gables before they get lifted. Some will install the siding too. Much of the time we let the rake fascia and band extend past the eaves because we will be butting gutters to it. You can do the same with mitered corners if you are careful. Depending on the trim detail, you can hold the band up to come flush with the sheathing. Eaves with small overhangs can get the lookout ladders attached before lifting, the roof sheathing will extend out to tie those in. I think wide ladders that extend to the first common rafter are better done after the gables are up. If we don't trim before the gables are lifted, we just reach over once the sheathing is on. On steep pitches, you have the 2x walkers to work from. This would be rather difficult if the roof was papered before the fascia was on. The only way to paper a steep roof would be from the top down, sliding courses under the preceding one as you remove the walkers. This isn't something I would like doing. Felt is too brittle in the wind and it likes to wrinkle. I also would not like slipping on Bituthane or taking the chance of tearing the felt or shingle underlay.We like to put the drip edge completely around the perimeter of the roof. I always use the 8" aluminum. I keep the ice and water shield up about an inch on the eaves and about a 1/4" back from the edge on the rakes. The only way water would be able to get underneath would be to work it's way around and up behind the lip of the drip edge. Since this is vertical, the chance of it happening are pretty slim. Using Vycor or a similar product to seal around the drip edge would probably work fine. It's just an extra step and another material that has to be purchased. So far, I haven't had to strip and re-roof a place with ice and water shield. I don't know if it will still seal nail holes after 25 yrs. If it has to be removed, and it's under the drip and on the trim, the re-roof could add complications. I doubt that we will be adding a second layer to architectural shingles in the future, the surface is too irregular for nailing and sealing.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I understand now Hammer1. I thought you were talking about putting the drip edge on before you raised it. I didn't think that made sense.
We've always "dressed the gables" ourselves. I don't remember ever standing one up "naked".
blue
I agree with Brian and Piffin. We always put the metal down first and adhere the I+W to it (at the eaves and the gables). The object of drip edge is to get the drips out to the edge so the drip! Why would you want the water to go under the metal? that is called seepage, not drippage
I've seen a lot of ice dams start at the gutter (another reason I dont have gutters). I've also seen water seep through the fascia and make its way to the interior walls on houses that had ice & water shield installed to mfr's specs.
The best solution on a new construction is to run the ice & water over the sub-fascia if you're using one, then run the fascia over that
On a reroof it wont hurt anything to fold the ice barrier over the fascia an inch and cover that part with aluminum drip edge. UV rays will break down any exposed areas
the generic term for the I&W is "waterproofing shingle underlayment"
you could look up the application methods in your roofing mfr's installation manual.. also look up installing drip edge..
the method is different than the one for "water resistent shingle underlayment"
i noticed there was also a discussion about 2-stud , 3-stud and 4-stud corners.
as a design /build company.. we are responsible for developing a strategy in all of our methods of construction.. since our background was solar & energy construction, we pay a lot of attention to long term payback..
somethings that appear to be inefficient or not cost-effective are really just the opposite in long-term payback....
of course , if it ain't in the budget , it ain't gonna happen
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for your input! It is appreciated.
Dick
The best solution on a new construction is to run the ice & water over the sub-fascia if you're using one, then run the fascia over that
Wouldn't that deposit any ice damed water into the crevice between the fascia and sub-fascia?
I was happily conceding ( for a moment ) that the drip could go over the ice and water shield, if you run the ice and water shield down the fascia.
Now on second thought, the bending of the ice and water shield isn't advised. Certainly, it would crack along that sharp line and be rendered useless.
The moment's over. I'm back to demanding that the drip be below the Ice shield.
blue
To say you need to put the drip edge below the ice shield contradicts the integrity of the ice shield. Ice and water barrier is designed to seal around nail punctures.
What ice shield is doing is not allowing water that has crept under the shingles to penetrate at the nails that hold the shingles on. If water was going to get in at the drip edge nails then what good would the ice barrier be?
I don't know about the rest of you, but my understanding of I & W was never that it's to "seal around nail punctures", it's to prevent water back up to the top of shingle courses. When the warm-thaw cycle causes water to build up w/ no escape route, the water will back up past the top of the shingle- water runs down sheathing=bad.I've done the I&W both ways, but I do the I&W first now:
I always put a 2x6 sub fascia at the eave edge. Then, the I&W down to, and on top of, the 2x.Seals the sheathing up tight, with only a tiny point @ the drip edge bottom w/ the possibility of leakage. Wait.......I know what your going to say........ I've NEVER had an ice dam leak problem in 20 years doing it this way, because even before it was code, we were venting our soffits adequately, and ridge too, to keep the underside of the roof consistently cold.The cold hard truth is two-fold. one, ice dam leakage, while it may be in the shape of a big ice wall at the gutter line, comes from water backing up above that ( usually the third or fourth course, in fact) not at the drip edge.Two correctly vented roofs don't as a general rule, GET ice dams. And, Hammer and Blue, who appear to be pretty adamant about knowing every damn thing, I hope you're not putting just that three foot roll of I&W on starting at the bottom, because the code says " 3 ft in from the outside wall" ( about 7' lineal on a 12 pitch) No, I don't either, because no one does, and I've never had a leak at this point. ..............I need to go knock on some wood. Go get em Piffin..........
ya just gotta think like water...
I like the sound of that: "think like water"
"think like water"OK, I'm a big drip
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>>correctly vented roofs don't as a general rule, GET ice dams.
You make a good point but in the trades today not many people build a "house soup to nuts". The roofer may never meet the insulator so he needs to make an extra effort if he doesnt want to get into the finger pointing game.
IMO not enough is done to promote better insulation techniques in this country, a facet of our trade that is grossly overlooked, but thats another thread
>>my understanding of I & W was never that it's to "seal around nail punctures", it's to prevent water back up to the top of shingle courses.
If it doesnt seal around nails then how is it going to stop water frrom getting to the sheathing? Heck, tar paper doesnt seal around nails, thats the only difference between the two underlayments