Ice /water shield under cedar wall shing
cott4399
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I am getting ready to sidewall shingle a house around the corner from the beach all the old siding has been removed and the old plank sheathing has many spaces and holes, going over with new sheathing is not an option , I thought about putting non granular Ice and water shield over the whole house walls before I shingle it to help seal out drafts, I will be using #1 white cedar shingles, because the home owner plans on letting them weather naturally. any suggestions would be helpful thanks
Replies
Greetings Gosemer,
This post, in response to your question, will bump the thread through the 'recent discussion' listing again.
Perhaps it will catch someones attention that can help you with advice.
Cheers
"Live Free,
not Die"
I second Andy's thoughts, and the stuff is not cheap either!
However, IIRC, Mike Guertin (I think)...who does lots of shingling seminars, recommended I&WS to be used at all corners. Which I did recently on a cedar shingle/flare job. I sleep better!
Tyvek would certainly cut down rapid air infiltration....while still allowing moisture to pass outward, (according to the makers claims, of course!)Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Curious, how did you get the i&ws to wrap neatly around the corner with the flare?
You can read the thread What did you do today?
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=54229.24
that I started a couple of days ago. The walls includung the flare had nothing but rosin paper under, and there was not abit of rot.........except the shingles, which were basically turned to dust.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Edited 2/17/2005 4:52 pm ET by Eric Paulson
Tyvek would certainly cut down rapid air infiltration....while still allowing moisture to pass outward, (according to the makers claims, of course!)
There's been a fair amount of discussion here and elsewhere about Tyvek holding up under cedar. I've seen signs of deterioration, but don't have a great deal of documentation. Felt seems to be the underlayment of choice under cedar. Hopefully Mike Smith will chime in here.Like the Tucson, I shall rise again from the ashes.
Why not felt over Tyvek? Tyvek for the air barrier and the felt to seperate cedar from the Tyvek. Or a 2ply 60 min. bldg paper by itself?
uh oh.............I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
My use of I&WS was on the corners, but under the cleats I attached the flared shingles to..I discussed the underlayment issue with Michigan Prestain, and they assured me that using Tyvek was just fine. I inferred that since the shingles were finished with all 5 sides covered, that they were not concerned.The rain slicker stuff is neat, but finding a seller was tough last spring, and it was pretty pricew.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Probably a bad idea as the membrane would serve as a vapor barrier on the cold side.
Andy
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Andy,
We have been using 30# felt on walls for years. It seems quite popular around this place as well. Do you think there is much difference in the permeability of 30# felt vs. ice and water shield ? If not, have we been mistakenly applying 30# felt ?
On another note, did I miss out on some hot news around here ? Are you banging nails or words these days ?
carpenter in transition
I'm banging words these days, since the Monday after Thanksgiving.
You and I have the same taste in wall coverings. I use #30 felt, as well. Felt isn't the vapor barrier that Ice and Water is, and installed shingle style, should do a great job draining the water that gets past the siding.
With all this debate about what to put under siding, let's not forget to properly flash the windows. To point up just how rare this is, I'm going to tell a quick story. My crew and I installed a houseful of windows last September, carefully flashing everything with Vycor. The rep from Eagle stopped by, and was stunned. He said he'd never seen anyone else do it right. He took pictures, and went so far as to call the architect and put in a good word for us. It takes maybe 15 minutes a window guys.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Andy, I am assuming you use Vycor in the lay up" method....in other words, making a pan on the ledge, then wrapping the sides over that. Or is there a better method?
The area I feel is the weakest is the corners where it is tough to get rid of the littel hole that can result if things aren't done and folded accurately.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Exactly so. The way to do the corners is simple. I'd written a piece (before returning to Taunton) for El Nuevo Constructor, a Spanish language magazine, that details it with drawings. To give credit where it's due, know that I learned this method from Mike Guertin. The nut of your question is answered here:
Cut a square piece of Vycor from the roll, then cut it into two triangles. Remove the backing from the first piece, and stick it to the housewrap or tarpaper at the bottom corner of the opening. The point of the triangle should protrude about an inch into the opening. Fold this point down so that it sticks to the corner of the jack stud and the rough sill.
With the release paper facing out, fold the second of these triangles along its altitude, between the point and the hypotenuse. Peel the release paper from one half of the triangle, and adhere it to the rough sill, with about 3/4 in. extending past the edge of the sheathing. Fit it snugly where the jack stud and the rough sill meet, peel the remaining release paper, and stick it to the jack stud, again with 3/4 in. extending out. Grab the center of the overhang and fold it down over the first triangle, pulling as you go. Then fold down the sides. You might need to add some staples to hold the stretched part in place until the adhesive sets.
If you'd like, I'd be happy to email you the entire text. Let me know.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
If you want to go high end and the owner has some $ then try vaproshield house wrap.
http://www.vaproshield.com
The stuff has an impressive perm ratting of 212 (the higher the number the more moisture vapor can pass through to the outside). Tyvek is something like 23, tar paper .5. It runs abought .47c a sq ft. A good way to describe it is its like putting gortex on your house.
I would also recomend you use home slicker on top of the vaproshield. Its a nylon mesh matrix that will hold the shingles off the wall a 1/4" so the back side can breath.
Edited 2/17/2005 6:55 pm ET by reinvent
Tyvek would be OK if you used the mesh (Cedarbreather, I think it's called). It's purpose is to allow the cedar to dry evenly and if you put Tyvek underneath, the moisture from the interior can dissipate evenly without directly contacting the cedar.
Search through back issues and previous threads for "Rain screen walls"
I'd go with the Tyvek and backer mesh combo, also - tho' I do have reservations about the breathability of some housewraps as well. But the infiltration barrier benefit weighs in strongly in this case I think.
I wish I was working near the beach! Need help?
Edited 2/17/2005 8:18 pm ET by watersprite
Another thing I forgot to mention. Its been discused here and elsewere. If you put raw cedar siding against tyvek the tanins in the cedar will cause the tyvek to break down in a few years.