Are any of the ICF pros using stick framed braces, or do y’all use manufactured braces?
Also, does anyone have any experience with Standard ICFs? http://www.standardicf.com/
blue
“…if you just do what you think is best testing those limits… it’s pretty easy to find exactly where the line is….”
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Replies
I know a guy locally who braces with wood. He uses and sells the vertical ICF system. I've never seen his work - he's my concrete pump guy. He swears that wood gets the job done.
I rent arxx braces.
It's good to know someone is sucessfully using wood. I know it can be done, I'm just trying to figure out how most of the guys doing this on a regular basis use it.
I've rejected the idea of vertical icfs. It seems to defeat the intent of using smaller components for a poured wall.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
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I don't have much for credentials but I noticed that the Standard's have their webbing on 12" centers whereas the Reward's are on 6" centers. I think I would look at costs in you location between the two. Check with both dealers and talk to the contractors/home owners who are using their producsts to see what their opinons are.
Re your question on bracing, I would use rented adjustables at the manufactures recommended spacing and knock togather 2x6 additional between the rented bracing. The class I took stressed the need to make sure the wall stays plumb and square. This will require additonal lumber and work but would result in a better wall plus you can use the lumber else where in the construction.
If this is going to be a diy'er job I strongly suggest you take a class from a local dealer. The one I took several years ago was really informative, explained a lot about concrete, add mixtures, slump etc. and we built a small wall and placed rebar in it. We mixed up some concrete and observed the setup times between different mixes etc. as well.
There are many manuf. of blocks (100+), find a dealer near you, visit a site being built if possible and watch how the blocks go togather. Ask questions, biggest is how the crete is consolidated (making sure there are no air pockets by rodding or viberating) and if they have had any blowouts with that particular block. BTW blowouts can happen in any wall if the crete is over vibrated plus you cause the rock to settle too much.
Good Luck
Jim
I guess you could call this a diyer job because I've never actually did an idf job, but I certainly intend to do them. We're preparing a proposal for our first one right now...5200 sf home LOL! We'll be offering the client a shell package that is stick framed, icf, and maybe sip. I'm a bit concerned about sips though. I'm somewhat hesitant to put all my eggs in a osb basket if you know what I mean!
ON the other hand, I dont know if I'd qualify as a bonafide diy. I've formed and poured concrete walls back in the 80's when I did a stint with a contractor that was partnered up with a guy that did industrial construction. They were all typical forms though...walers, snap ties, oil etc. Saw some funny stuff....blowouts due to bracing installed by morons (my supervisors), cave ins because the boss wouldn't wait for the shoring to be driven, LOL.
My closest experience with icfs was watching the boys next door here setup a 4' crawlspace with it. Those guys meant well but there wasn't a carpenter in the bunch. They spent all day...and I mean all day setting up a very simple rectangle with one offset. They didn't have enough sense to snap out the lines on the concrete before starting. I watched them spend an hour or more squaring up their first perpindicular wall LOL! They had five guys standing and watching! But they did manage to get the thing done in a day or two...I can't remember. I don't mean poured...I mean stacked! They went home that night without bracing anything and the wind blew over the long wall LOL!
I love a good comedy. Two and a half years later the builder is still trying to get the house finished. It is a big house but 6 months would have been plenty even with all the delays and complications. The builder is booked years behind. I now know why LOL! He is a nice guy and a competent engineer type...he just doesn't have any skilled framers but he doesn't know that. He's never seen anyone frame that knows what they are doing.
blue
"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
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I used wood braces on Reward ICF's for my foundation. What they recommended I use, was about HALF of what should have been used. I didn't get any blowouts, but the wall was waving like a flag in the wind. The rental cost for the steel braces was ridiculous, but I'd use them for sure if I was going up more than one floor.
Question on your pour, did you have any vertical (float up) problems with any of the walls? One ICF manuf. says that can be a problem (probably marketing hype) by the non block manuf.
Thanks
Jim
Float up issues are always an issue.
I think the mixture of the concrete and the rate and pressure at which the concrete is placed is the key to managing the float up issue.
Have you had blowouts or other problems with float up? I don't remember having an issues myself.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
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Jon, I was/is very skeptical too about the number of braces recomended. Especially on my first pour, I would be very, very conservative on how many I placed. I'd probably be analyzing the number and location on site very critically. We've got some ideas on all this...
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
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Blue,
See my thread in the photo galley titled Jack that house John Henry. We poured yesterday and my camera is unloading now, but there are some prep pictures in there. Time I manbaage all the photos and get dinner, it may be tomorrow before I add them to that thread.I rarely do much exterior bracing at all for walls up to 5' or 64". I tie the reabr in the forms as I build the wall so it is internally braced. Then we add a brace or two after the wall is poured before it kicks if needed. Thewse walls ranged from 5' t6o 8' so we braced with wood. Phil is an old wood form man so he tende to overdo the bracing IMO, but I don't complain - rather have too much than too little for something like this.Being on an island transport and rental is expensive for steel braces and I don't do but one of these a yeara or less so I am not gonna be buying the stuff. Always have strapping and crap around.The internal rebar tie methoid keeps the walll from blowing over and from floating up too.
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Why not just stick the rebar up all the way on 6' walls?
I appreciate the tip on the thread. I'm there.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
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That's part of what I mean. The vertiale rebar is in the footer and the horizontal is tioed to it, and the blocks are all tied to each other, so the bar from footer anchors the wall
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Okay, I've got a better picture of that.
I can't believe it but I'm so ADD that I already forgot to check your thread. And I went there directly after posting that reply to you LOL! Something musta happened....
blue
"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
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Edited 2/22/2007 8:55 pm ET by blue_eyed_devil
We've done 2 rows of ARXX without bracing, but that's about all I'd feel comfortable with since it's so snakey.
There's nothing wrong with bracing with wood, it's just more time consuming--a lot more. Time is money and a $700 bracing rental saves close to $600 in labor and cuts a day off the project.
The advantage to the ARXX bracing is that it's quick to put up, quick to adjust, has built in braces towards the top for walk planks, and allows the block to crush a little.
When small sections need to be braced with wood for various reasons, usually because the steel bracing is too tall, or extra bracing isn't available, we feel safe putting a 2x6 on edge every 2'. The main problem is attaching it to the block in a way that's economical. Usually a 2x4 laid flat is screwed to the block with 2" torx screws and the 2x6 on edge is screwed to the side of the 2x4.
A significant problem with this method is unequal crush of the block. Each horizontal joint will crush about 1/16", so 6 courses will crush about 6/16" (3/8"). If wood is screwed to one side it can't crush, but the other side tries to and the wall leans out.
Using wood on both sides is just twice as time consuming and often not practical.
I have helped out after the fact to rebuild two ICF foundations that used wood bracing. You see if the bracing isn't stout enough the walls will move a dangerous amount during the pour and bad things happen.
Imagine two opposite walls moving out slightly (remember uneven crush). With all the block tied together guess what has to happen to at least one of the other walls--it has to be pulled inward. Two big walls can easily pull over a smaller end until it falls over.
Guess what happens when the one wall falls over? Its momentume then pulls the two adjacent walls inward creating quite a mess.
Strangly enough, there's a good chance the fourth wall is still standing and mostly intact.
If there's a quicker way to flush money down the toilet and make one heck of a paperweight I haven't seen it. Simply rent a skidsteer and start picking up those 30 yards of concrete that just fell all over the place. Oh yeah, the rebar, if tied well, makes quite an interesting problem in itself.
If you're pouring a basement there may be the additional problem of getting the skidsteer in the hole. Might as well call someone with a trackhoe to dig a ramp.
30 yards of concrete may be somewhat difficult to dispose of on a friday as the sun is going down so pay one of those young kids to stay up all night with the skidsteer breaking it up.
It must be human nature to want to save the damaged block. We drove up and there was half the block, covered in concrete, broken, but neatly organized as if it could simply be restacked and everything would be fine.
I don't intend to rain on the parade, but the reality is these things can and do fall down if not braced well. Ironically, it's the DIY croud that has the fewest problems since they typically spend much more time on the details than a contractor would, and always rent the bracing.
ICFs aren't at all like other types of formed concrete and the guys with concrete experience are the most resistant to disregard past experience and learn the new process.
Best of luck.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I gather that you were not part of the original erection process so you can't say exactly what the did wrong...?Maybe I do the overkill like a DIY but I've never had a blow-up, a blow-out, or a blow down. It's hard to think about...
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I gather that you were not part of the original erection process so you can't say exactly what they did wrong...?
In both sitations we were hired after the wreck as the less risky, but more expensive option.
They were very similar and the contractors were actually fairly forthcoming with how they did things, so it's easy to generalize about what happened. There were four design factors that made bracing more important, and a couple of judgement errors.
First, the foundations were rectangles with the longest wall roughly 35', so the middle of the long walls depend on bracing more than designs with multiple corners or intersecting walls.
Second, the 6" walls were roughly 8' and 9'6", so the height is getting up there and the narrow walls get off balance quicker than the more typical 8" block.
Third, the rebar wasn't tied to the block so that wasn't helping the block stand up.
The guys were used to 1-1/8" plywood forms and assumed the requirements for external bracing, rebar tie off, and pouring were the same with ICFs. They didn't read any recommended installation instructions, and the lack of building permits outside the city limits ment no warnings from the building inspector.
To direct the concrete into the forms the guys only had the ICFs to walk on, so there was one person shifting his weight around with the overhead pump hose, although this is a very minor issue. Fortunately, the calapses didn't happen while anyone was on top of that section. The local concrete pump operators are also very good and little effort is needed to direct the hose.
I had driven by one building site and made a mental note of their wood bracing. It looked like a 2x4 on edge every 10' with a diagnal 2x4 going down to a metal stake. It's hard to say what the other had.
The block was string lined before the pour and was determined to be plumb.
The straw that broke the camels' backs were harder to pin down. Both contractors knew the walls were leaning a bit, but figured it would be ok to wait until after the pour to straighten them.
These were well intentioned guys, but they didn't know what they didn't know.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
ten between bracing is definitely too light for 8' walls.I wonder too if they poured to the top or were working in lifts.
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I wonder too if they poured to the top or were working in lifts.
I wondered about that to, but don't know for sure. Since they were walking the wall with the pump it sure seems to be likely the lifts were on the tall side rather than short.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Every thing I have ever read on any ICFs recommends pouring in lifts no more than 4' at a time.Every blowout where I know anything about it, they tried to pour more than that.On my own house, I had 64" walls and tried to pour all they way at once. I mean it's only a few more little inches right?
But I could see pooching starting at the very bottoms enough to know that the slightest flaw or a bit more slump and I would have been one of the casualties listed in your who's who of inexperienced ICFersfour foot max means four foot MAX!
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jim... let's see if we can lure mad dog over here.. one of the last jobs he was doing on his own was an elaborate ICF house..
bet he's got some good insights
hey, maddog.... !!
c'mon over... wanna get your two centsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I poured up 9'6" four sides in one shot. 7 courses.My ICF supplier said I was crazy, but I've always felt like that was both well-established by now and somewhat irrelevant. <G>It worked perfectly except where we missed a few screws on a door buck,and got a slight bulge that was rasped out.The key is to brace properly, have a professional and intelligent pump operator, use SP in a fat 3/8-minus mix, take your time, and do not vibrate.I would definitely not recommend this, and I probably would not try it again voluntarily, but it can be done.
IdahoDon,
I avoid wood for exactly the reasons you explain so clearly, except when using Integra Spec, which doesn't crush under the load of pouring.
The Integra Spec blocks are supported by hard web inserts. There is no horizontal gap between the inserts as there is in most other systems, so as far as the height goes, what you stack is what you finish with.
I nearly lost a wall in just the way you describe when using Lite-Form and wood bracing. Lite Form was a hopelessly bad system using styrofoam SM and special web ties cut into it. No stability at all on its own. Anyway, it compressed, the braces didn't, seams opened, the wall leaned. Horror show. I ended up with a wall which was an embarrassment to look at.
Never again. Now I own 20 sets of steel bracing, which is enough for a perimeter of 100' -120'. I reckon that was paid for in about three jobs.
Ron
Never again. Now I own 20 sets of steel bracing, which is enough for a perimeter of 100' -120'. I reckon that was paid for in about three jobs.
That's really a good way to go. After fighting a set of beat up braces twice this past year it's becoming more attractive to buy a good used set, or start playing golf with a GC that has a set. :-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Yikes!
I am glad I read that after my first ICF pour - I may never have gathered the courage...
ignorance was bliss
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
Don, I'm not following at all why the rented bracing is superior to wood bracing. What makes it so superior in terms of holding the wall in place?
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Don, I'm not following at all why the rented bracing is superior to wood bracing. What makes it so superior in terms of holding the wall in place?
Wood isn't inferior to steel if built for the situation, but the ARXX steel braces are quite stout. We just can't justify the extra labor cost of using wood.
Truth be told, I'd love to find a way around the rental bracing.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Piffin: are you saying that you set the first course, drop in vertical bars and tie them to the stubs sticking up out of the footers AND to the horizontal bars, and then drop ICF blocks down onto those standing vertical bars for the rest of the courses? Or do you drop the verticals in after three or four courses are laid and only tie down the top few courses? Sounds like a royal pain in the butt either way.
We just ensured we had enough overlap between the verticals sticking up out of the footer and the new verticals, and dropped the verticals down after the whole ICF stack was up and braced. We didn't tie them to anything- in fact, we vibrated them occasionally (by jiggling them around and whacking them with a hammer) to help the concrete settle in the forms during the pour.
Like a typical DIY, I rented the braces- and hired someone with some experience to direct the pour. The braces would be no good for what Piffin's doing (under an house), but if you're doing a basement out in the open it's a no brainer. It would take a lot of effort and lumber to both build sufficient braces AND a safe walkway to do the pour from, and then to take out all those fasteners afterward so you could re-use the lumber. Not worth it- and too hard to adjust if you need to straighten the wall after the pour. Mind you, ours was well enough set and braced that it was straighter than an arrow after the pour and needed NO adjustment.
The braces cost a fortune and their cost is unreasonable with respect to what they do, but that's because they're a specialty tool. An appropriate knock-down brace could be made by a weld shop for much less, and you could compensate for any"risk" associated with that by simply using twice as many of them- probably safer anyway when you think about it.
Edited 2/23/2007 8:07 pm ET by moltenmetal
I don't know whay it would be such a pain to think of lifting a light foam block four or five feet to place it down over a verticle rebar standing out of the footing, especially when using it to tie to will prevent the wall from blowing over and drasticly reduce the amt of bracing needed. I'll be posting more photos tonight I think in the Jack that house John Henry thread. It looks like a lot of bracing - too much I thought, but it only took three guys four or five hours to strip and clean all of it.When I am deciding to use the wood compared to rental cost of the steel braces, I also have to consider that I have a day and a ferry ride to go get them and another day and a fery ride to take them back to the rental.I used thebuiler blocks system. One comment from the guy operating the pumper who sees ICFs every week of the year, was that this brand seemed to him to be the best, most solid, least blow-out prone brand of all he has seen. Just an opinion, but it sounded like a solid experienced one. You know how pumper operators feel about crete setting up in their hose and hpper while somebody repairs a blow-out!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, I certainly can see the significant structural value of rod sticking out five feet or more. I think I'd be inclined to stick it out as far as I could reach while standing on the ground, but I might be inclined to stick several pieces out all the way to the top!
I couln't understand what brand of blocks you use. Could you repeat that please?
And finally, I need to understand what advantage the icf braces have over wood. So far, the planking brackets seem to be the only difference but that doesn't seem to be a very big deal to me. Of course, I've lived a lifetime of building onsite scaffolding, so perhaps it's a much bigger thing to those in different trades that don't do it on such a regular basis.
I'm not opposed to owning or renting this special type bracing, but like I said, I have a few other ideas.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
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Blue,
As IdahoDon said, almost all ICF blocks compress some when you fill them.
The factory bracing is fastened to the blocks with screws not through holes in the bracing, but through vertical slots so the forms can settle.
Also, you typically set up the bracing so the wall is tipped in just a bit before the pour, maybe up to an inch over 10' height, rather than trying to go for plumb. Corners have to be plumb, of course or the seams will be open. The reason for tipping them in is that the bracing can push out to plumb but will never pull in a wall which is full of wet mud. Not even the tiniest fraction of an inch. If your wall starts to tip away from the bracing, you have a big problem.
And that's another thing - the factory made bracing is totally easy to adjust - out. Site-built bracing will not be so easy to adjust unless you incorporate some kind of heavy and expensive turnbuckle screw.
You have to do some adjusting after the walls are full, too. You push things out to plumb, tweak it here and there to get it to look good against a string from corner to corner, shake it some to get a wave out of it.
You will usually have to change the height of the walk/work platforms once during the setup, too.
It is all easier with steel bracing.
Ron
Thanks Ron. That's some good information.
I'm going to have to digest these ideas for a night before I can ask an intelligent question.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
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http://www.icfmag.com/how-to/ht_wall_bracing.html
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Blue,
Yesterday, I meant to expand on a point that Don made. With wood bracing, when the form block settles, the wall will tend to lean away from the bracing. It is partially supported on the brace side by the attachment screws and not supported on the other side.
If it starts to lean away from the bracing, you will never pull it back. The first thing that happens is that some mud will flow into the seams, which will have opened slightly on the brace side. The second thing is that if you try to pull a concrete filled wall, you will either lose your diagonal leg attachment or the bracing screws will pull out of the forms or you will stretch the web flanges and introduce a curve into the wall.
If you are still interested in wood bracing, it might be worth it to make slots in a 1 x 4, fasten it hard to a 2 x 6 for the vertical leg and use a spring board for the daigonal. You could cut slots fairly quickly with a router and a spiral bit and fasten to the forms with hex head metal siding screws with the nylon washer built in.
It's not out of the question. It's just more hassle.
Ron
Through this thread, I have beeen trying to understand what everybody is meaning when they alk about sforms settling or compressing. It just dawned on me!When we are tying down our blocks vertically with the thie wire, and twisting tight, we are pre-compressing our ICFs so they do not settle during the pour. When everybody else is just stacking them, that is why they settle in with the concrete weighting down at the webs as it goes in. I don't have the settling or compression problems mentioned. That is why I wasn't folowing all that.
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Piffin,
That makes sense.
Not all forms compress, though. Integra Spec doesn't compress at all.
Ron
Piffin, I have been wrestling with that same misunderstanding of the term compression.
I have to agree with you. I think a huge key to ease of installation would be to tightly tie the entire structure to the footings. I cannot see any reason why you woudn't want too. The small amount of labor seems inconsequential to the overall labor expended. You'd spend a little early to save a ton later. It's the old story of the tortoise and the hare....one that I've lived by out in the rough frames that I've done.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
When we are tying down our blocks vertically with the thie wire, and twisting tight, we are pre-compressing our ICFs so they do not settle during the pour.
I think it's a great idea to wire the forms down tight. In the past we've tied the forms semi-tight to each other, but never to the footer.
We're consulting/handholding for an upcomming foundation and will have them start off tied to the rebar at the footer, and continue up with decent tension.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Edited 2/24/2007 3:21 pm ET by IdahoDon
Thanks for the clarification Ron.
I'm getting a much better sense of what's involved in this ICF construction. I'm begging to understand the different complexities.
I didn't want to disrupt the discussion with my own ideas until I had a better sense of some of the realities that are out there. Now, I'll give y'all some idea of what I'm thinking.
Of course, since I've spent a lifetime wrestling wood, I think it's the perfect product. I can see now though that the turnbuckles are needed if Piffin's methods of tieing to the imbedded rebar doesn't work.
Frank and I will be targetting the homeowner shell market. We've been doing shell packages and we think they are the cat's meow. Get in, get out and let the homeowners save some cash (they think) finishing it up. We decided that instead of subbing out the poured walls, we want to do the icfs ourselves. Our only dilema is that neither has ever poured a basement LOL! We won't let that little fact stand in our way though. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
As I researched the icf idea, it became obvious to me that the most important factor in these installations is the bracing. With enough bracing, you could fudge the mix, rate of delivery, and be the worst consolodator and the wall will survive. We don't plan on mucking anything up all that bad, but I certainly don't intend to let my guard down on the bracing, especially till I'm "experienced".
My inclination is this and I offer it up for suggestions, refinements, criticism or laughter, in any order: Since we intend to do both the rough frame and the basement as a package, I decided that it probably would make a lot of sense to panelize the first floor walls first, erect them around the perimeter of the basement as "forms-to-brace-the-forms", then stack and brace the forms to our walls. After we pour the walls, and build the first floor deck, we'd simply add our trimmings to the panelized walls and set them up on the deck.
There are several reasons why this appeals to me. First, it assures that the foundation will match exactly the exterior walls that will be set on it. It gives us a chance to get started with the framing the day the bsement starts getting dug. It consolidates the time spent on the jobsite from footings to shingles in the shortest possible timeframe.
This idea puts us working a bracing on the outside of the basement, which would require a bigger dig, but we envision many of our installations out in the country were we sometimes don't dig at all. So the tradeoffs are debatable.
I'm not entirely opposed to using steel alone, or possibly in conjunction with our planned method. I think time will tell.
Just so you have some understanding of how long it takes up to panelize the entire perimeter, Frank told me that they did the last 1600 sf ranch in one day with him and Steve. That included housewrap and some overhangs. On the planned icf installations, we'd frame all the walls and sheath them but leave the housewrap off. We would not be opposed to having the trusses onsite and use them as wall ties to brace the entire structure from one side to the other.
Maybe I'm just crazy.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I don't my my head fully around this idea of yours yet, but a couple thoughts to throw in here.You would definitely need a lot more space on site that way and good planningYou would want a lot of wter available on site to hose down the 'bracing' when you spill crete on it
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The space won't be an issue, but that water idea is certainly something I hadn't thought about.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
http://www.buildblock.com/
while looking this up I also came across this site. haven't been there yet, but you find find it worth while.
http://www.icfmag.comsteel brace is just faster to set up than wood. It's a matter of whether it is worth it or not.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for that link Piffin.
I did find the builderblock site interesting too. It's kinda nice to be able to get a quick estimate regarding sq foot prices on this stuff.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Another new choice is FoxBlocks.
http://www.foxblocks.comThey were a molder of other blocks and they recently began offering their own blocks. Seems to have good features, reversible left/right and up/down, strong corners with easy to attact to corner blocks. Less expensive, too. Direct ordering, prices on their website. First truckload, free shipping.
Thanks for that link Maggie.
Question to everyone about brickledges? How far down does a tapered brick ledge go? It seems to me, that if you don't go below frost level, then the frost would heave the brickledge simply because heat isn't escaping from the foundation and warming the soil. I have never seen a tapered brickledge so I'm not familiar with them.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
It's not lifting the block that I'd think would be a pain- it's threading them down along a set of rebar rods, with those stupid plastic webs getting in the way all the way down. Then there's the odd bar that ends up directly in line with a web, constantly trying to push your block out of line etc. But if you lay out your vertical rebar in the footing properly on the first go I guess you'd be ok.
Nothing to it, just lift the block, quick check to be sure it is started on the right void, and set it down and sanp it in. No problem at all. Barely a three second delay.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Same here, Jon. I use about double the bracing Reward calls for and I have never been sorry.Blue, the best way I have found is to buy those steel turnbuckles made for concrete forms and 3/4" nail stakes, fasten about 4' of 2x4 to them, then you can fasten any length 2x4 t-post you want to that and reuse them until they disintegrate. I have never had wood left over (makes great blocking) and have never felt like the bracing was a waste of money or taking too long.When I was building ICF houses I would show up with a trailer load of pre-fab bracing from the last job, and then take it to the next job. The turnbuckles and nail stakes make it happen fast.