Got an appointment to talk with a lady who wants to build a house out in the country. She has already decided that she wants to use Perforwall product. So I thought I would go in with a little info as to alternates. Need help.
She is convinced that the ICF house will be extremely energy efficient…can’t that be accomplished with…forgot the name…Wrecked Angle did it…the foam core panel stuff?
The concrete part of the ICF will be bug proof and very strong…can’t you get the same performace with concrete blocks? We are not in tornado country, and much too far from the coast for hurricane issues.
ICFs are not real popular down here, so I would think that there would be a bit of a premium and a learning curve. If possible, I would get the franchisee to install his product, and I would do everything else.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell’em “Certainly, I can!” Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Replies
I'm not a builder. I'm an engineer home owner who specified ICF's for a foundation for his dream home, built on the Canadian border of New York in 2000. Here's my take on your question.
An ICF house is energy efficient. The brand I used claims, if I remember right, R-25 walls. But you can get darn close to that with 2 x 6 walls and upgrading from R-19 to R-21 fiberglass.
Concrete blocks are not nearly as strong, but pleanty strong enough except for earthquakes, and possibly (I don't know) the very strongest of hurricanes. With concrete blocks you have to insulate and attach furring strips, which you don't do with ICF's, so there is a labor savings to offset against the higher material cost. Foam is not a food source for insects, but some insects will tunnel through the foam in search of wood. Since the tunnels are hidden, such infestation is very hard to detect. Some manufacturers add borates to the foam to prevent this.
ICF's, like other formwork, are generally erected by carpenters rather than masons, which may be a factor in tight labor markets.
ICF structures are very quiet inside, a plus in noisy neighborhoods. Running utilities are different than you are used to, so you'd have to learn how it's done. Moving a window or door after the walls are poured is, obviously, expensive.
Back to energy efficiency, the house I built has a basement of ICF's, 2 x 6 walls with R-21 fiberglass, raised heel trusses, and Andersen windows. The total actual electric and gas bills for a year, for 2900 square feet of heated space (not counting the basement) was only $1430, or 49 cents per square foot, which compares favorably with Vermont's Most Energy Efficient House (FHB No. 161, p. 74) cost of about 71 cents per square foot with all its bells and whistles. So you can get great energy effciency with carefully done wood frame construction if you wish.
Having said all that, if you can do an ICF house for the client, and your competition can't, you have a leg up, so long as you price it to cover your learing curve.
i've done a icf house and my thought is they are the best housing alterntive out there. there will be a learning curve but nothing that complicated ,heres a few things i can think of. it helps if the house is a fairly simple footprint, preferably in a size divisable by 4'. this really helps laying up the blocks.the hous we did was 28x 32 with a basement and a one car attached garage all laid up with icfs. took us 8 days and we were ready for rafters. the biggest mistake i made was when putting the window and door bucks in i fit them pretty tight, when it came time to lay the next row of blocks over the headers i had pushed the walls apart about 1/4" so the next row would not lay down. learned from the manf to leave the bucks a little loose, the cement didn't flow out! we over braced this thing in fear of blowouts. if i was to do it again, after sitting all the block i would go around the first 4' and screw full sheets of osb and the brace it a little and go on. save osb for roof. with a pumper truck fill about a 1/3 each time around and you will have no problems. putting the electric in is a little challenge, you use 2' deep boxes and then use a electric chain saw to cut the grooves for the wire.our bldg dept then made us go in and caulk the groove full to hold the wire, no big deal. the next problem i remember was attaching the baseboard. the thought was the plastic strips hold the sheetrock we'll just shoot finish nails into the strips. what a joke! finally ended up gluing the base on, i hope it's still there after 5 yrs.! next time i would cut the sheetrock 2" short and lay a 2" by 1/2" strip at the bottom to nail to.i've got friend that started laying up icfs about 3 yrs ago,he now is so booked he's turning down new houses because he can't get to them for about 18 mons. so if a guy learns the system you can definatly have a edge up on the competition. around here it adds about 10% to the overall price of the house, but i'm not sure with the price of sheeting that figure wouldn't narrow up a little. good luck
Ed,
The Perfomwall is just like Rastra, Cempo, Amazon, and the defunct Energrid. You know this, but some other posters may not. The matrix of styrene and portland cement is inherently proof against both fire and tunneling insects, which are two great advantages over the straight styrofoam types of products. It can also resist UV exposure for a very long time, as the cement binder is unaffected. Only the gun foam in the joints will degrade prior to exterior plastering.
I built a shop/apartment using the Cempo, and despite some shortcomings, I would do it again. ICF buildings have a true R-value that batt-insulated frame houses seldom attain. This is due to both the reduction of infiltration pathways, and to the elimination of thermal bridging due to the two foam skins on the walls. As the first respondent noted, they are really quiet, which is a delight in the city, especially.
If the client will pay you enough to finance the learning curve, I say go for it. The end result will satisfy in a way unlike a framed project. Good luck!
Bugle
P.S. If you are anywhere near Texas, look into the Amazon Grid-wall product. They have corner blocks that can save a lot of time. I had to miter all my corners with a chainsaw, which was slow and tedious.
You know this, Uh, yeah! I knew that!
If you are anywhere near Texas, look into the Amazon Grid-wall product. I am deep in the heart of Texas...this project will be south of San Antonio: "take the Farm-to-Market road about 4 miles out of town...exactly 3 miles after the railroad tracks turn north on a dirt county road...if you get to the bridge over the creek you've gone to far...go 6/10 mile to a gate on the left...etc". Also, she has also decided on Performwall.
I suppose you can stucco directly on the exterior of the walls, but how do you sheetrock the inside? And do you run conduit in the walls before pouring concrete?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Maybe you should consider subbing out the foundation and wall erection....and then watch like a hawk. PerformWall is heavy. You'll need some kind of crane. It also has special corner blocks. Requires very little bracing.....unlike the styro ICFs that routinely blow out.
You won't sheetrock. You'll gypsum plaster right to the wall. Then for the frame walls, you'll use plaster board so you'll have a uniform look. As far as electrical...around here we use UF wire, not conduit. You buy a cheap small ele chain saw and use it to notch the walls. Throw it away. But that's the way we do adobe too.....lay the UF right along the proper course and slop mud on top.
I'd go with whichever product has the closest factory.....as long as it was the styro bead/cement kind like Rastra and PerformWall....not the styro ones. Very cool stuff. Why try to talk her out of it?
ShelleyinNM
Not necessarily trying to talk her out of the performwall, just thought I'd get into a discussion with her as to why she chose it, and want to be able to discuss options. The plant is apparently across the border near El Paso (across into Old Mexico, not that other foreign country New Mexico).
Plaster board? What's that? Seriously, I don't think I've ever seen that here, so I'm expecting to use standard drywall crews.
BTW the archy is an hour plus north of here, the home site is an hour south of here...I have no idea how she found the archy...but he's doing the plans in Chief Architect.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Lets see, what do they call it other places? Blue board? Used to come in 2x4 sheets. Now in 4x8 sheets. Used to have holes in it. Doesn't now. Looks for all the world like sheetrock, cept it has a different paper. Meant to accept plaster, rather than drywall mud. Made by USG.
If your area is like mine....which it is....you may find that your drywallers or your stucco guys are perfectly adept at gypsum. Just that no one ever asked.
When you have your appt with her, ask about the archy. How did she find him? Experienced with this product? They are 10' long in depths of 30" and 15". Has he thoughfully accounted for this? You want to adjust this as little as possible. She doesn't want to pay for a lot of waste.
I know that TX has an adobe code. In that-other-foreign-county-NM, this product follows the adobe code for footers and stem walls. Might check that.....just to see who you're working with.
ShelleyinNM
I like the sound of everything except the butchering of the wall to lay wire in. You're saying you have to make cuts anywhere you want a wire or a box? What about pipe, mechanical, vents, etc?
Same thing...but remember.....here....we'll probably have RIH and cooling in the ceiling in a house like this. You just use the tip of the saw to make a little channel for the uf. There's solid concrete behind it, so you have to use a gentle touch. It's not going to shred and tear like the styro stuff. The texture is totally different.
Kitchen wet wall can be furred out with frame if there's too much going on. Generally we're trying to emulate adobe so the thicker the better.
I imagine that the factory will have suggestions to attach drywall; but that seems a shame. I know that you have guys in S. Texas that can plaster.
I remembered that the Rastra plant used to be in El Paso, but didn't know if it was still the same. PerformWall is some Rastra guys that got into some kind of patent thing with the Rastra mother-ship in Europe. Didn't know if they kept the plant. Official Rastra moved their plant here, to Albuquerque. Sure reduced the shipping. Then, there's some guys in Pima, AZ that used to work for Rastra. Looks the same to me.
Don't forget about the stucco. No wire! Brown and color and you're done. The nice thing about this product is the ability to copy adobe. A homemade rasp from 2x4s and some expanded metal, round off the square edges, and no one can tell the difference....including me.
Look at last year's Houses Issue. House there built in Lincoln County by a contractor whom I believe had never done it either. Looks OK to me.
ShelleyinNM
There is another Rastra like product called "Tech Block". They have facilities in Arizona, N. Calif., and Georgia, accoding to their website at http://www.techblock.com I drove by their N. California sales room last January, but the guy that runs it was no where to be found. The blocks are 16"x48" by (I think) 11" thick and weight (if I remember correctly) 85 lbs. I think this is smaller and lighter than the Rastra blocks, but wouldn't swear to that. The standard Tech Block has an OSB face which they claim is an improvement over the other blocks (you can get them without the OSB). The price on their website is $25 /block plus shipping. They claim a "calculated" R-rating of 35+, which I think is highly optomistic to say the least...
I am going to explore the Tech Blocks for building my cabin in a fire prone area.
edit: I did get a chance to look at a sample wall while I was there and it looked pretty good (as I would expect a factory sample wall to be...)
Edited 5/14/2004 12:39 am ET by CaseyR
Thanks for the link. Never heard of them b4. Smaller would help the DIYer, but they seem to require more bracing than Rastra/Performwall based upon the pics they have posted.
I don't think they have as many rebar channels....maybe that contributes. Also appears that their window rough bucks are more complicated. Hard to tell.
I've seen some pretty tight radius curves done with the others, while they seem to discourage it. Texture of the product appears to be the same. Certainly worth checking out.
ShelleyinNM
ed.... i don't know what Performwall is ... but i would guess it is another icf product ... i would back away from the ICF and move over to stress-skin panels made with PerformGuard EPS.. ie: treated with borates for vermin control..
MOST icf mfrs and systems have not converted to PerformGuard so they are NOT vermin proof.. more like vermin facilitators..
sounds like you are about like me in terms of experience with both products /systems..ie: done a lot of thinking and quoting but never built one or the other.
if it were me .. i would steer her to the PerformGuard EPS stress-skin construction... this is more like conventional contruction.. with a lot of regular framing techniques transferrable.. go to the "R-Control" website to find a PerformGuard franchise near you...
ICF construction is a whole new set of problems... i wouldn't do it if i had the choice between the 2 systems..
and of course.. you can always go with a mooney-wall and get the same advantages with your existing skills
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 5/13/2004 8:35 am ET by Mike Smith
Myself, I love ICF's. I've never worked with one of the portland/foam matrix types but I understand that they are much superior to the EPS in places where there are lots of tunnelling insects.
I was reading some studies recently from the Oak Ridge National Laboratory on the thermal performance of ICF walls. One conclusion is that they perform particularly well in places where the outside temperature varies daily above and below a comfortable indoor temperature and in such places a well designed home might not need either a heating or a cooling system.
http://search.ornl.gov/query.html?col=allserv&col=panews&col=rndorgs&col=working&charset=iso-8859-1&ht=0&qp=&qt=insulated+concrete+forms&qs=&qc=&pw=100%25&ws=0&la=en&qm=0&st=1&nh=10&lk=1&rf=0&rq=0&si=0
Their performance in heating climates is not quite as good, but, given the same static insulation value, it's still better than a normal framed house where the smallest air leak negates the insulation.
I'm starting one myself as soon as I'm back on my feet. I'll be using either Integra Spec or Logix on a 28' x 32' 2-storey plus basement.
Ron
Last year I saw a short article with photos where small (shed sized) ICF structures were tested against bomb blasts. Did quite well. Apparently the foam absorbes some of the shock. The blasts stripped off the foam, but the poured, reinforced concrete core was unharmed.
Not that it would be a consideration for a home, though.
Last year I saw a short article with photos where small (shed sized) ICF structures were tested against bomb blasts. Did quite well. Apparently the foam absorbes some of the shock. The blasts stripped off the foam, but the poured, reinforced concrete core was unharmed.
Not that it would be a consideration for a home, though.
I think that would depend upon where you live....
Probably not, in one of those Fine Homes.
;-)
Not familiar with the type of block you mentioned, however I did take a one day seminar with the Arxx system. Next house I build will be with ICF's, from the footings to the eaves. Points to remeber.
1. get footings as close to perfect as possible
2. plan ahead for mechs., saves core charges later
3. brace walls as required by manuf.
4. pour corners from wall into corners 3-4' outside corners, work into corners
5.gradually add concrete around wall in lifts till you reach top
6. cut holes in bottom of plates for window openings to add concrete
7.tape top of blocks that you don't want concrete on.
8. walls are out of plumb slightly 1" leaning in towards living space, plumb out after pour complete.
9.determine size of base and case, cab layout, etc. install 1/2" or 5/8" ply in these areas depending on drywall used. install 1/4" shy of widths for base and case.
10. simpson strong tie makes a great hanger for bond board check their site its under ICF,s
11. you can get blocks with brick ledge if needed,45's and radius
I could keep going but baby is crying and momma needs a break hope this helps
I think you are looking for SIPs (structural insulated panels, they are foam, covered with osb on either side..)
SIPs are strong, about 200% stronger than a stick built house. not as strong as a ICF hous but certainly a whole lot easier to build and finish off.
Icf's are easyto use and build with, the details are what make the differance with them! you need to either plan in advance for everything. (pretty hard to do when we do't know what technology is going to do in the coming decades) or spend a great deal drilling holes into the walls with diamond tipped tools!
Actually, I think you can get SIPs with a variety of materials besides OSB. I ran across one website (that I forgot to bookmark) that had sheetrock on one side and seemed to indicate that you could get cement board on the other. Will have to try and recreate that search and see if I can find it.
<Actually, I think you can get SIPs with a variety of materials besides OSB. I ran across one website (that I forgot to bookmark) that had sheetrock on one side and seemed to indicate that you could get cement board on the other. Will have to try and recreate that search and see if I can find it.>
Here's one source for a variety of skins:
http://www.murus.com/
Todd
Don't use SIPs with just sheetrock on one side..
Advice that was given to me repeatedly , you never know where you'll want to hang a picture or put a lite shelf. Impossible to do with just sheetrock to hang on..
I liked the idea of sheetrock sided SIPs too , figured what the heck save the space and the cost, Right?
You stand a chance with 1/2 OSB.
I evan know of one house that was able to hang all of their kitchen cabinets from the OSB walls! They glued and screwed every three inches with a Kreg and then waited a week and the installer did chin ups on the cabinate!
Try that on your sheetrocked walls!
I've never used SIP products, just did some business with the Murus company referenced. Pretty fascinating manufacturing process.
You are right, I think they recommend the OSB interior for just the reason you mention.
Todd
Pro's:
1. Last's a very long time, quiet, great if you build in a climate with wide tempurature swings between day and night.
2. It's rock solid and sets you apart from the rest of the wood butchers.
Con's:
1. If you you do it wrong, it's going to be a very expensive mistake.
2. Subs are going to want more to work with it - especially electricians and plumbers (just because they've never dealt with it before).
3. Need to plan all wall perforations, and tripple check all of them before, during and after the pour.
Check out the AMVIC block web site (amvic.com) - independent ICF'ers rave about this block for it's strength and ease of construction.
Stay away from Reward Wall block, I wish I had.
'preciate the responses...I'm going to pass on this project...too many red flags & funny feelings.
I met with her today and looked at some almost-complete plans. Got to asking about mechanicals, you know, heating & a/c. House is 1 story with a loft, about 20 ft to ceiling ridge, quite a few windows (aluminum s/h, they cost less), total floor area about 1900 sf...she is "thinking" about putting in one window unit a/c for the really hot days...no mention of heat. She will have frost about twice a year in Feb and several days of 40 degrees, and August will be 95-100 all month. She is convinced the house will be comfortable without any hvac. Roof is standing seam metal, and she hates fiberglass insulation...it's not "green". She thinks radiant barrier sheathing will do the trick.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
What's wrong with Reward?
Like to know, because I am having 300+ Reward I-Forms delivered to my jobsite Thursday. I looked into Amvic, but thought the Reward was a better product and had on-site training as well. Local dealer to boot.
In my area with a plethora of carpenter and other ants, I would want an ICF with at least borax. I did not look that hard on the Perform Wall site, but I didn't see any mention of borax or other insecticides. There is a discussion of insects and ICFs that mentions using a fine mesh as a termite shield:
http://www.concrete-home.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=7
You also might want to check http://www.icfhomes.com/PhotoPages/photo_termyth.htm
added: A year or so ago I talked to the PolySteel ICF representatives at a home show and they indicated that they were the only ones in this region to sell an ICF with borax in it. Unfortunately, it was shipped from Georgia and both the addition of borax and the shipping boosted the price.
Edited 5/18/2004 1:54 pm ET by CaseyR
I've got ants, but never seen a termite. I am in southwestern Vermont, where bugs don't generally seem to be a problem. There's quite a number of homes, both foundation-only and full houses built with various ICF's around here, and never heard of any of them having bug problems. It's still essentially a concrete wall, anyway, so I'm not worried.
eating the foam isn't the problem, it's the foam as a source of nests that's the problem.. If you provide homes for millions of critters who want to eat wood what makes you think you can then keep them from eating the furnature, or flooring or trim etc?
(not to mention havinmg to listen to she who must be obeyed's shreaking everytime see sees one of them..)
I used reward products for the first bit on my house.. they are terribly expensive compared to others and they have yet to deal with the insect infestation issue the way others have (by adding borate into the mix causing critters who want to eat my house to Die!)
I had my home constructed using Reward Wall forms, by the Reward Wall distributor in my state that came highly recommended by Reward Wall. The Reward Wall dealer put up and poured the walls, all three stories, without using any bracing. Needless to say there isn't a straight plumb wall anywhere on the outer walls of my home. After spending $30K to have both the interior, as well as the exterior walls of my home firred out, to make them sorta straight and plumb - the Reward Wall dealer refused to pay for the repairs.
After repeated calls, letters and mailed photographs and engineering reports to Reward Wall headquarters in Omaha - I finally got a call from Mr. Ed Storm the CEO of Reward Wall. During the coarse of our conversation, I asked Mr. Storm for help in getting the repairs paid for, by their distributor for the state of Colorado. Mr. Storm informed me that he would not lean on their distributor, or help me in any way - when I asked why not; Mr. Storm replied " because Chuck Lipari (the Reward Wall Distributor) sells a lot of block." With integrity like that, do you really want to deal with Reward Wall.
Mr. Storm, if you read this - may you rot in hell.
TJ,
Understand completely, where you're coming from. I'd have been similarly upset. in this case, I'd done my research as to what features I wanted. The ICF rep is two hours away and yet is going to be onsite to help unload the truck. The following day he's coming back to train me. He has already stressed the importance of bracing; as an engineer, I know exactly what he means. I got a great tip somewhere (maybe here?) about attaching OSB or plywood to the lower 4' of the forms, basically enclosing the ICF's within a secondary form, basically eliminating blowouts, and I can use the plywood elsewhere in the construction after the pour.
I'm also doing just a simple foundation, albeit 9'-4" walls, and a few additional fun things like larger windows and a double door opening. I don't anticipate any problems, I'm not on a time schedule, and I have an expert concrete guy, independent of the Reward dealer, who will help me with the pour and make sure everything is perfect.
In my case, the pro AND con of DIY is that I have nobody to blame but me if it gets screwed up.
I'll try to let everyone here know how it turned out, and take some pictures.
I'm also doing just a simple foundation, albeit 9'-4" walls,
Jon-
Sounds like a great project. How 'bout taking some pictures and posting them as you make progress?You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv