Replies

1. 
   Nick25 | Dec 25, 2005 03:23am | #1

   Icynene, Is a cheaper alternative to polyurethane foam.  It's r 3.5 /in as opposed to 6.5 or 7 with poly.  Icy is also soft to the touch like cotton almost, poly is hard like plywood and will also avoid mould and rot, icy must be kept dry as its more succeptible to moisture related problems.  Icy is however kind of nice in a remodel in the sense that if you ever need back into a wall cavity it's soft enough to rip out, not the case with poly. Either way a spray foam is nice b/c there are no gaps, it prevents wind infiltration actually raising the r value by doing so, can be used in roof spaces with no worries about air flow ect.

2. 
   Nuke | Dec 25, 2005 04:52pm | #2

   Icynene is a registered trademark for one kind of spray-on foam insulation, and its been around for almost 20 years. I think the chemical name is isocynurate, and I remember seeing this more than 10 years ago on TOH. I often considered what the consequences of a major home fire with a cynurate present. Why? Because all the marketing literature seems to ignore the fact that adding water to a fire means the hydrogen could couple CN ion and form HCN. Speculation? Sure, but if there was myth-busting endeavors they've not turned up.

   Corbond is another registered trademarked spray-on foam insulation, but with twice the performance of Icynene. Unfortunately, I know even less about it. From their website, its a polyeuethane. But both Icynene and Corbond are typically installed by licensed (and trained) product professionals. And if you are seriously considering this kind of insulating performance (which comes at a cost) then have you consider SIP construction?

1. 
   Danno | Dec 30, 2005 03:01pm | #4

   Good point about hydrogen cyanide gas. Since that is a very potent gas (used in the "gas chamber" to execute criminals) it is something to consider, even if it is only a remote possibility of it occurring in your house during a fire.

1. 
   Nick25 | Jan 01, 2006 12:51am | #7

   as far as I know of the only requirement is that the foam is not exposed to a living space. I think the concern is off gassing so in your attic the air is supposed to be seperated from you 'inside' air. I can't see you having to drywall your attic. Who knows I have had to do some pretty useless things in the past. If your house was burning it would be seperated from the living space to some degree. Definitely check your code book. Another consideration would be to put in 'pink' and then spray with foam. mainly to stop drafts and get the little extra sound proofing and r value

1. 
   EMS | Jan 01, 2006 04:29pm | #8

   I will be getting into the insulation estimates soon and get all the answers. I don't think it is an off-gassing problem but rather a fire related problem. Also, the payback on foam is long. If you don't expect to keep the house for long term it is not worth the extra cost unless you value other foam related benefits e.g., structural. What that time is seems to be 15 years or such especially if batts are DIY. But with utility cost going north that spread will come down too...but foam chemical costs will go up too! Round we go.

   I will be building a house this year using panelization from Eagle's Nest. I will be my own builder with assistance from a licensed builder on a lump sum basis. About 3,500 sq. ft. with natural stone veneer. Insulated interior walls some with 2X6 and double drywall for sound attenuation. Should be interesting...

   EMS

1. 
   Nick25 | Jan 01, 2006 08:28pm | #9

   Sounds like a nice place. I've only ever done one kit house all walls were full of foam and wired ect. The floor was just a traditionally framed floor. Post and beam all cut beautifully, installed easily. We had plenty of material and tonnes of people stopped in daily to 'see' the progress.

2. 
   EMS | Jan 01, 2006 09:45pm | #10

   This panelization is only the framing, roof, bearing walls/outside walls.  It gets the house dried in in a matter of days depending on the size. It needs a completed finished foundation to build and first floor for starters but the building owner then finishes everything else e.g., subcontracts all other trades he doesn't want to perform himself. I expect the house to appraise for 35 - 50% more than costs in part because of my location (lot prices $200K - $750K).  What I like best about panelization is the quality of the product and quick dry-in. Also the ability to spec out the best practices of doing the work -- get it done right the first time type thing.  

   See http://www.lawconsultingandconstruction.com for further info on Eagle's Nest. I was suitably impressed with their package, history and results that I became a rep. for Eagle's Nest but this will be my first house. I have been an in-house construction atty for 30+ years but we were in heavy construction and environmental design-construct and marine work, not houses, so this will be an adventure.

2. 
   EMS | Dec 31, 2005 02:15am | #5

   Do typical building codes require drywall to cover the foam insulation products, e.g., if the roof rafters are foamed do you now need to rock the whole attic?  This would certainly add to the total cost of 'insulaton' vs fiberglas.

1. 
   Nuke | Dec 31, 2005 04:23pm | #6

   First I've heard of any county laying code making such an asinine requirement. Then again, there are quite a few dumbneck counties out there. Easy enough to ask one's chief building inspector and or code-enforcement office, no?

   BTW, SIP manufacturers typically offer two forms of Structurally Insulated Panels. The rigid foam-insulation core is sandwiched between either one sheet of OSB and one sheet of drywall for use in a timberframe application and providing a finished interior surface. Then there form in which both sides of the panel are OSB and become a structural member requiring no frame at all for the walls or ceiling.

   So, let's say you are putting up a timber-frame or pseudo-timber frame structure with the first form of SIP I mentioned. Not only is the insulation already in place, but also the drywall-hanging. But, its not just the immediate cost in material and labor that one would benefit from, but also the thermal and acoustical savings over time. How big would I need to stick-frame insulate for > R-30? How much for the house-wrap and caulking to 'seal' the sheel? These are questions that should also come to mind with interest.

3. 
   SCaseria | Dec 29, 2005 12:19am | #3

   We recently had Icynene sprayed in our attic. It has made a huge difference in terms of stopping drafts. It's too soon to say how much $$ we'll save, but the house feels more comfortable.

   It is considerably more expensive than blown cellulose or fiberglass, and there might be other options if you are starting from scratch.

   You should check the Breaktime forum, as that is where the building professionals usually hang out (there's even a folder about Energy issues) - http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/

4. 
   MAsprayfoam | Jan 01, 2006 10:01pm | #11

   Please fill in your profile. Click on "update profile" near the top of the page. Location is a big factor in many Q&A.

   Next, I am a spray foam insulation business owner. I am also an engineer and hope I can answer some questions. There is a boatload of info in "Breaktime" forum on this subject. Do a search for "foam insulation" over there.

   Any foam insulation is light years better that FG batts. Foam is a solid and does not let air move within it. The same cannot be said for any loose or small fiber type insulation.

   Secondly, the process involves spraying on a 2 part liquid that quickly starts a chemical reaction, expanding the material as much as 120x it's size. This fills in every void, nook and cranny in the thermal envelope of the building. A perfect fit every time. No other insulation can offer that.

   Code indicates that plastic building materials (foam is technically plastic) be covered with a 15 minute thermal barrier. This is simply 1/2" sheetrock or the like. The foams I use do not support combustion and are difficult to ignite as they have agents added to the formula just for this reason.

   I do use an Icynene-like material that is made from bio-based Soy bean oil. I also use Corbond brand that I saw mentioned in this thread. Corbond is R7.3 per inch vs. 3.7 per inch for the soy based 1/2 lb foam. Of course you have to pay more for the high performance. 90% of the time I use the Soy based 1/2 lb foam in 2x6 walls and the thermal envelope of residential buildings.

   Click my name and see my web site in the profile for more info if your interested.

   Stu

1. 
   DoveMountain | Jan 02, 2006 04:27pm | #12

   Stu, thanks for the information.  Based on an earlier suggestion, I did do a search of the prior discussions on insulation, and as you suggested, there are numerous threads on this topic.  I'm convinced that some type of form insulation is the way to go.  I'm leaning toward an open cell type.  We will be building in Tucson, AZ.  Thanks again for your advice.